N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during press conf.

Aurini

Ostrich
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

I may have said something harsh on this thread a year ago, before this tragic end became known; if so, I regret those words. This is far worse than even the greatest fool deserves.

This won't be the event that triggers World War 3 - but future historians will mark it as a significant precursor. Suddenly, the diplomatic situation becomes more rigid. Flexibility and options are reduced. The rising tensions lead to yet another incident. Then it all starts.

2018 is going to be an interesting year.
 

Sebastian

Pelican
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

Before this happening, people were talking about he might do something with north korea because his supporters are declining by the fact and it was a great way to gain popularity by declaring a war. (Like George Bush did)

It's a great excuse for him to do something about it and I am sure he will be very Happy this happened.


Vicious said:
I'm going to repeat something from the North Korea thread.

I've had my reservations about Trump but if he reacts with the kind of force that is entirely justified in this situation then I'll sing his praises from the top of every building. If he turns Pyongyang into a parking lot I'll myself chisel his likeness out of Mount Rushmore. There is no action, counted in sheer number of human lives saved, that would be greater than toppling the sick North Korean regime. The country is nothing but a prison with 25 million convicts innocently imprisoned at birth.
 

Suits

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

Scoundrel said:
If Otto Warmbier wanted the North Korea experience, he certainly got it.

On the off-chance that it needs to be said, Otto Warmbier did not steal a political propaganda poster. He likely committed no crime, and did nothing wrong whatsoever. His arrest was arbitrary, his "confession" and "testimony" Communist theater performed at the point of a gun. The fact that the N. Korean government sentenced him to fifteen years of hard labor for what could as best be considered a petty offense ought to clue anyone in as to what's really going on here.

But then, many people are clueless as to the nature of regimes such as North Korea. Yes, they are completely, totally evil. In fact, they are more evil — and more insane — than you, or I, or for that matter even their own people, have the power to fathom.

This incident might help to shine a spotlight on the nature of totalitarian societies, and wake some people up to the reality of what goes on inside them. 1984 was not just a novel; for the people in North Korea and other similar dictatorships, Orwell's nightmare vision is a daily reality.

If they were going to completely invent a crime, don't you think they would have invented something more impressive?
 

Scoundrel

Kingfisher
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

Suits said:
If they were going to completely invent a crime, don't you think they would have invented something more impressive?

You could just as easily ask: If Warmbier did in fact commit this relatively minor "crime," why would the NK government sentence him to such outrageously harsh punishment?

The answer to both questions is: Nothing about this is supposed to make sense. This is a show of force, intended to strike (or reinforce) fear in people.

In the clip with Henry Rollins I posted above, Rollins sums up his impression of NK as "poor people who are scared of their government." He likely understates the case.

If you haven't already, I urge you to watch the "press conference" with Warmbier. It is Orwell's 1984 come to life:



At 12:30, after concluding his prepared speech, Warmbier takes "questions" from reporters. His responses are obviously scripted and memorized, written by someone who is both completely committed to the NK regime, and not especially proficient in English.

Incredibly, there seems to be no written transcripts of this "press conference" online. Here then is Warmbier's response to the first question he is asked, about why the Friendship United Methodist Church assigned him the task of stealing the poster:

Thank you for your question. I will now address why the Friendship United Methodist Church gave me this task.

The Friendship United Methodist Church is located in Cincinnati, Ohio, United States. I have known about this church since my childhood, because I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, United States. You can easily find detailed information on this church from the Internet.

The Friendship United Methodist Church is not a typical church. It is very wealthy, with 42 million dollars. That is why the United States administration has very close ties with this church.

This church made a plan to enter into anti-Christian countries which . . . uh . . . the United States administration dislikes, and it is currently implementing this plan.

Several Democratic congressmen regularly visit this church to collect political fund donations and to assure their continued support of this church's policy.

It is said that in 2008, around ten million dollars — around . . . um . . . two to three percent of President Barack Obama's total election cost — was collected from this church. That is one of the reasons why the United States administration works closely with the Friendship United Methodist Church, and connives at all acts, including my crime.

The United States administration and the politicians use the Friendship United Methodist Church to harm the DPR Korea by all dirty ways and means. The Friendship United Methodist Church gave me my crimetask, which is closely matched to the United States administration's hostile policy against the DPR Korea, in order to spread Christianity in the DPR Korea, and to increase the church's support from the United States administration.

Therefore, my crime is the expected output of the United States administration's consistent hostile policy against the DPR Korea, and its implementation by the Friendship United Methodist Church.

I was easily manipulated because of my family's severe financial difficulties. And because I am a non-believer, the church knew that it could deny its involvement if my crime were to become public news.

I hope that answers your question, and you all now clearly understand The Friendship United Methodist Church's involvement in my crime.

Thank you all for your attention.

Does anyone really believe these are the extemporaneous words of an American college student? Do the North Koreans?

To us, it can seem ludicrous and bizarre, impossible to take seriously. But to those who have grown up with this kind of relentless propaganda, it's one more instance of an omnipotent State flexing its muscle, and announcing itself as the ultimate authority.
 

churros

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

Interesting article in the Guardian today, from someone who went on the tour. Organised by some chancer off the forums on couchsurfing.com (!)

The horrific death of the American student Otto Warmbier after 17 months’ imprisonment in North Korea has put my own years of mischief in the secretive country into sharp focus.

For those with only an arms-length awareness of North Korea, his tale is as terrifying as it is absurd – but for me, having visited the country on more than one occasion, it has been a fearsome reality check that only adds to my understanding of the absolute tragedy of his fate.

I travelled with YPT – Young Pioneer Tours – which was responsible for Warmbier’s visit, on my first trip to the country in 2009, when its founder, Gareth Johnson, was still hustling for business in the travel forums of the Couchsurfing website. At the age of 23 I drank down the sales pitch of “budget trips to destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from”, and its logic of intrigue, adventure and daring - with no real sense of the risks.

Over the years of its operation Young Pioneer Tours has developed a reputation for gung ho and unruly alcohol-fuelled youths, propagating an unreal idea of North Korea where safety is an afterthought. Its culture trickles down to their guests – Warmbier was reportedly up drinking until 5am on the night of his “crime”, and YPT says it was unaware he had even been separated from the group by Korean officials until they had boarded the plane home. A quick Google of “young pioneer tours drunk” will bring up plenty of anecdotes of this kind of behaviour, usually from disgruntled non-drinkers, reporting on alcohol-induced bad behaviour by guides, travel companions or both.

I can add to the chorus. Johnson was supposed to lead me and a group of friends on the one-week excursion, but I only ever met him once in the end, in a diplomatic hospital in Pyongyang. He had broken his leg after trying to either board or disembark from a moving train heading towards the capital. The wife of one of his colleagues took his place.

The boozy logic of the company and its trips was fuelled by a bizarre, maladaptive nihilism that, much like the panopticon-like nature of North Korea itself, we were all to some degree forced to engage with. This wasn’t always completely bad. There was a lot of leeway with what we felt we could get away with in the supposedly “hermit” kingdom – and in truth most of the time we had a lot of fun feeling like we were flouting the rules and proving the world wrong. Warmbier’s dash along the “secret floor” of the Yanggakdo International Hotel in Pyongyang was a rite of passage for misbehaving twentysomethings looking for thrills, spills and stories to brag about back home. These games were never discouraged by YPT – and several of us had a go. Warmbier’s simple mistake was to unwittingly overstep the ambiguous boundaries by trying to bring back a forbidden trophy.

The shock of Warmbier’s initial arrest and his wretched, seemingly forced, confession of guilt; his disappearance and reappearance in a coma over a year later, followed by his almost immediate death; the rattling confusion of there being no information on how or why any of this happened – all this triggered memories in me of events that could have plausibly escalated in the same deadly way for me.

The time our bus was held up and our belongings were searched because the North Koreans thought someone might have stolen a towel. No big deal, right? The time I agreed to a North Korean girl’s request to take a love letter back to London (to give to someone I knew who had also visited North Korea), warning me not to let it be found at the border. The time that same visitor was held at the border at the end of his next visit, for ripping his photo out of his visa and giving it to her. OK, maybe that was pushing it a bit. But looking back, any of these things could have kickstarted a similar tragedy had it suited our hosts, and I’m gobsmacked by the naivety under which we all laboured.

A year after that first trip, still feeling naively invincible and hungry for more adventure, I separately returned to the north of the country with two friends and ended up getting held hostage for 24 hours, for my friends’ crime of wanting to go to the Chinese consulate to update their visas. Spying an opportunity to mess with us, the North Koreans in charge confiscated our passports and refused us contact with the British embassy as part of a poorly thought-out extortion attempt.

Luckily our handlers were either bad gangsters and not experienced in the art of crime or, being at the isolated tip of the country, were not sufficiently plugged into the state’s Kafkaesque matrix of dependency-led mafiadom to let our situation escalate into who knows what. They quickly gave up harassing us when they ran out of a pretty small set of strategic moves and booted us back into China having taken little more than the €300 in cash we had between us, and my friend’s London Transport Museum wristwatch – a small price to pay for freedom.

Looking back now I feel lucky that the ice never broke beneath my feet. YPT made little substantial comment at the time of Warmbier’s arrest and its tours continued – only now, in response to his death, has the company announced that it will no longer be taking US citizens to the country.

But the rest of us are still invited on to the same party-tastic tightrope that I and Otto Warmbier, and thousands of others, danced on during one of YPT’s “18-30s in the danger zone” excursions in the most isolated nation on earth. Now that there are no illusions about just how bad a fall can be, how many will still be willing to accept this as a one-off tragedy – when one is already too many?
 

fokker

 
Banned
The "presser" reads like something roughly translated from Korean to English by some Communist Party official, and cleaned up by a native English speaker. It doesn't read anything like an US college student.

I hope that there can be a peaceful unification of Korea one day, under the SK flag and government and with Seoul as capital.
 

Kona

Crow
Gold Member
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...



Now watch this when the poster is stolen:


Is that really the same guy? There's so many analytical things the state department or the CIA or whoever could have done, and should still do now.

Is this just some other bullshit Barack Obama dropped the ball on?

Aloha!
 

Phoenix

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

fokker said:
I hope that there can be a peaceful unification of Korea one day, under the SK flag and government and with Seoul as capital.

Fuck that shit. A bunch of sick fuckers need their heads on a spike.
 

DChambers

Woodpecker
That a bombastic and pathetic regime like the NK government could get away with even thinking about laying a hand on an American Citizen with little real consequence is disgusting. The consequence of harming an American citizen should carry the the same weight and awe that was once felt when kings were told, "Ille civis romanus est."
 

RIslander

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

DChambers said:
That a bombastic and pathetic regime like the NK government could get away with even thinking about laying a hand on an American Citizen with little real consequence is disgusting. The consequence of harming an American citizen should carry the the same weight and awe that was once felt when kings were told, "Ille civis romanus est."

Treating any foreigner in such a way with a state issued tourist visa is disgusting. As an American, if a NK citizen was treated like Warmbier here in the US I would be ashamed.
 

churros

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

RIslander said:
DChambers said:
That a bombastic and pathetic regime like the NK government could get away with even thinking about laying a hand on an American Citizen with little real consequence is disgusting. The consequence of harming an American citizen should carry the the same weight and awe that was once felt when kings were told, "Ille civis romanus est."

Treating any foreigner in such a way with a state issued tourist visa is disgusting. As an American, if a NK citizen was treated like Warmbier here in the US I would be ashamed.

It's a tricky one. The US does torture people, even without due process.
 
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

churros said:
Interesting article in the Guardian today, from someone who went on the tour. Organised by some chancer off the forums on couchsurfing.com (!)

...The time I agreed to a North Korean girl’s request to take a love letter back to London (to give to someone I knew who had also visited North Korea), warning me not to let it be found at the border. The time that same visitor was held at the border at the end of his next visit, for ripping his photo out of his visa and giving it to her....

Looks like somebody got this:

kplarge.gif
 
I wonder if MacArthur had actually been allowed to nuke the Chinese during the Korean War, if it would have ultimately spared far more lives given that millions of people have starved to death in North Korea while the rest live under hellish conditions.
 

Phoenix

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

spokepoker said:
For taking down a poster in a hotel?

I can't imagine why anyone takes the words of any government at face value. Let alone the worst one currently in existence.

Seriously, why? Someone brain damages some poor fucker and we still feel comfortable repeating their original reason for incarcerating him like it's a fact?

What next, taking the word of some drugged out bum as reliable testimony? Frankly that'd be a lot more credible because at least he's just some drugged out bum, and he doesn't have malicious intent in his words.

I think taking state propaganda at face value is fundamentally a form of lazyness, and that the continuance of evil is primarily a byproduct of humans at large failing to think, which is the most common form of lazyness there is.

This is a murder victim, not a thief.
 

Quintus Curtius

Crow
Gold Member
The funeral was held today.

According to the BBC, there were over 2500 people present.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40372080

Towards the end of the article, they say that Warmbier's family did not want a thorough autopsy done. My first reaction was, "Why the hell not?"

Something seems to be going on here, and I'm getting the feeling that our government is trying to bury this story as quickly as possible. Why? They (like everyone else) know this kid was murdered, but the more that news gets out, the more people are doing to want retaliation.

The sad truth is that there is not much we really can do about this. I get that. Maybe some more financial restrictions, and things like that. But the truth should still come out.
 

Phoenix

 
Banned
^ Probably because they already know the answer, as we do, and they see little point in having his body chopped up before the funeral. Not everything has to be (((they))) and Zelcorpion stuff. The poor bastard just got killed by some psychos who are well overdue a brutal overthrow and Saw-style punishment, it's a shame the Nationalists didn't win the Chinese civil war, and there's little else to say.
 

Engineer

Kingfisher
Gold Member
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

Quintus Curtius said:
snip

Towards the end of the article, they say that Warmbier's family did not want a thorough autopsy done. My first reaction was, "Why the hell not?"

Something seems to be going on here, and I'm getting the feeling that our government is trying to bury this story as quickly as possible.

snip

I have no real idea what they must be going through but to lose their child must be agony. Guessing they just want to put it behind them as quickly as possible.

I doubt Trump will forget. NK is clearly on his mind, if only as a piece in the (not going to say how many dimensions) chess game with China.
 

Xenophon

 
Banned
RE: N.Korea: US student cries & admits to being "severe criminal" during...

Quintus,

Do you suspect that NK will hold prisoners in reasonably good health and then poison or otherwise torture them within an inch of their lives before sending them home?

It wouldn't surprise me.
 
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