No point in working

Oberrheiner

Pelican
I don't understand how could an engineer in IT, given the huge demand, accept to work in a corporation as an on-field salaried-slave. That is even more true in France where salaried engineers don't get access to stock-options as far as I know.
One point of being salaried in france is to not get raped by the taxes.
 

Pelagius

Robin
That and the fact the average IT/software engineer is not highly entrepreneurial and enjoys the stability of the 9-7.

Which is why they make such good employees for when you start your own business :).
 
This will come back to bite you as your skills are suited for the current marketplace, and not for the future. IT is constantly evolving, which requires lots of training. Employers will pay for employees training while paying their salary; firms will just switch contractors if the previous contractor is not keeping up with the times.

You can totally get away with freelancing if you're young and unfettered with a family and house. It's much tougher if you want to start a family.

Good luck.

Depends. If you pick a niche technology it's ok. If you're a fullstack developer who does also css, design and coffee then yeah you can't sustain it for too long. If you're a contractor you'd better specialize in something, else you'll spend half your time keeping in touch with the new technologies.

But anyway I won't stay in IT all my life, I'm late twenties, will probably do a switch in my thirties.

That and the fact the average IT/software engineer is not highly entrepreneurial and enjoys the stability of the 9-7.

Which is why they make such good employees for when you start your own business :).

Is this a joke? Tons of IT engineers chose this field because of "it's cool man you can build phone apps and create websites to make money"

One point of being salaried in france is to not get raped by the taxes.

Lol, if you have no clue then don't speak. If you're an Auto-entrepreneur you absolutely don't get raped by taxes : 25% social security taxes + the income tax (exactly same rates as salaried people). And you can choose to have a flat rate income tax instead at 2.3% too every two year, so 27.3% in total. Slave employees don't have this option, of course. AE is a great status to start a freelance business when you want to work only a few months per year. Even if you evolve your company to an SAS, it doesn't seem like you'll get "raped by taxes", unless you want to have employees. No way I'll have employees in France unless I really need to. Too hard to fire them.
 
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aynrus

Pelican
I refuse to be an employee and only do contractor work.

I don't understand how could an engineer in IT, given the huge demand, accept to work in a corporation as an on-field salaried-slave. That is even more true in France where salaried engineers don't get access to stock-options as far as I know.
In the States, where cost of medical insurance is extreme, one gets cheap health insurance by being an employee.
For example, where an employee would pay around $40/month for good health plan, the same person with same income as self-employed can be easily paying $700/month and more just to have any coverage, and the same plan can cost $1100/month.
Also, a few companies contributed 100% match of 401K (retirement savings account) employee's contributions (up to a limit, may be 15K/year).
Other benefits, such as restricted shares and stock options, etc. Paid vacations and other leaves. Sometimes paid sabbatical leaves.
Issues with unemployment and disability insurance for self-employed.
Saving time/effort on seeking contract work/marketing after contract ends.
 
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In the States, where cost of medical insurance is extreme, one gets cheap health insurance by being an employee.
For example, where an employee would pay around $40/month for good health plan, the same person with same income as self-employed can be easily paying $700/month and more just to have any coverage, and the same plan can cost $1100/month.
Also, a few companies contributed 100% match of 401K (retirement savings account) employee's contributions (up to a limit, may be 15K/year).
Other benefits, such as restricted shares and stock options, etc. Paid vacations and other leaves. Sometimes paid sabbatical leaves.
Issues with unemployment and disability insurance for self-employed.
Saving time/effort on seeking contract work/marketing after contract ends.

In the USA the debate between employee / contractor could be more interesting. But in France, no way to be an employee. We have great company tax rates since Macron came into power and I just checked for an SAS it will be starting next year as such : 15% tax rate until 38000 euros, 25% after 38000 euros.
 

testosterone

Sparrow
I don't know what it's like in other countries but in Australia you have many White women having children to different fathers. The reason for this is cause if she has a child with the same father twice she gets less money (child support) compared to a new father. The kids never see the father in most cases (she lies in court) so she gets full benefits compared to if they did (shared custody), she receives less money from the government. Sometimes she will remarry where she gets payment from 2-3 fathers as well as her new husband. This pattern is common here with white mothers. If you live together in Australia for 2 years it's the same as marriage so she can clean the man out (I call winning the lotto) then she usually repeat the pattern with another man. It's sad cause it's the norm here where society doesn't shame these women.
 
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Oberrheiner

Pelican
Lol, if you have no clue then don't speak.
I had a company in france, and closed it when I got tired of having to deal with the people at the urssaf.
At one point I think you too will understand why it begins with URSS ..

Now I'm salaried, make over 100k a year with much less stress and hassle, and pay less than 20% taxes, everything included.
I have zero interest in ever returning to independent, portage or whatever the scheme is nowadays to pay you zero retirement, zero sickness leave, zero unemployment, and still rape you on taxes.

I might start another company one day though - if I can almost immediately reach the critical mass needed to have people doing the administrative shit for me.
Otherwise forget it, the mention of VAT alone gives me cold sweats.
I have an administrative phobia, as someone once said .. :)
 

Your post raises many eyebrows, no offense but seems like you weren't ready to start a company and came back to slavery a bit salty about your bad experience.

if I can almost immediately reach the critical mass needed to have people doing the administrative shit for me.

Doesn't an accountant only cost around 2000-3000 euros per year? Doesn't seem that much to me if I can deduce it from the company taxes.

Now I'm salaried, make over 100k a year with much less stress and hassle, and pay less than 20% taxes, everything included.

How could you pay less than 20% in taxes? Even just the social security taxes are 25% for employees. Then you have to pay the income tax, which for your salary would probably be around 30%.

Otherwise forget it, the mention of VAT alone gives me cold sweats.

Lol at this sentence. I pay the VAT yearly, and I find it great. It gives me a short-term financial cushion instead of borrowing money. Not sure if it's legal to do that in other companies but as an Auto-entrepreneur we don't have strict rules.
 

Oberrheiner

Pelican
I'm definitely salty about france, not about starting a business.
Accounting is only a small part of the administrative overhead unfortunately (unless your business model is extremely minimalist I suppose).
My income tax is currently almost in the double digits, I'm married with kids :)

In any case I would never call 10k a month for 8 hours a day slavery, out of respect for all the people I know currently having a hard time with their real jobs.
Ymmv of course.
 
I'm definitely salty about france, not about starting a business.
Accounting is only a small part of the administrative overhead unfortunately (unless your business model is extremely minimalist I suppose).
My income tax is currently almost in the double digits, I'm married with kids :)

In any case I would never call 10k a month for 8 hours a day slavery, out of respect for all the people I know currently having a hard time with their real jobs.
Ymmv of course.

Your vague reply doesn't answer any of the precise point that I raised in my previous answer. With this kind of evasive writing, no wonder the URSSAF gave you a hard time (note to foreign readers, URSSAF = some official French tax authority)
 

bucky

Ostrich
I'm definitely salty about france, not about starting a business.
Accounting is only a small part of the administrative overhead unfortunately (unless your business model is extremely minimalist I suppose).
My income tax is currently almost in the double digits, I'm married with kids :)

In any case I would never call 10k a month for 8 hours a day slavery, out of respect for all the people I know currently having a hard time with their real jobs.
Ymmv of course.
I'm a "wagey" with a decent salary myself, enough that my wife doesn't have to work. My job is pretty interesting, I have generous vacation time (for the US, at least), I get along with my coworkers, and now that I'm 100% working from home I get to spend a lot more time with my family. If my life is slavery, I'm not sure what American black people are so upset about.
 

surfdog

Sparrow
In the States, where cost of medical insurance is extreme, one gets cheap health insurance by being an employee.
For example, where an employee would pay around $40/month for good health plan, the same person with same income as self-employed can be easily paying $700/month and more just to have any coverage, and the same plan can cost $1100/month.
Also, a few companies contributed 100% match of 401K (retirement savings account) employee's contributions (up to a limit, may be 15K/year).
Other benefits, such as restricted shares and stock options, etc. Paid vacations and other leaves. Sometimes paid sabbatical leaves.
Issues with unemployment and disability insurance for self-employed.
Saving time/effort on seeking contract work/marketing after contract ends.
Please tell me what plan is this: "$40/month for good health plan". Seriously, please tell me which company offers a $40/month medical plan.
 

aynrus

Pelican
Please tell me what plan is this: "$40/month for good health plan". Seriously, please tell me which company offers a $40/month medical plan.
I worked for Silicon Valley companies, that's how much was charged for Blue PPO 90 type of plan with low deductible of 1K, this is the most expensive plan on California exchange and would cost 1100/month out of pocket with income over 100K (over tax credits limit). It's Blue Cross/Blue Shield/Anthem PPO plan which pays 90% for services that normally trigger coinsurance (imaging, etc).
This are the rates for single person. If you need to have family on the plan, it's obviously going to be more expensive.
 
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aynrus

Pelican
While in the US it's not lucrative to be self-employed from financial standpoint (tax rates are very similar to employee's, but terrible health insurance situation here makes a big difference plus a bunch of other benefits), I agree that working for employer feels like slavery. I only worked from home for the most part, but they'll find a way to get to you even when you work from home. Companies were uber-woke, full of foreign workforce ganging together based on their ethnic origin and mean micromanaging managers. I rather take the hut in Tansania.

I bet they're all singing covidian kumbalaya now....10 years ago in one company I had a (well-meaning) Chinese-born coworker even tell me I should go check with the doc which vaxx I need to get (!). I checked out a forum where lots of Russian software engineers hang out, they're all Covidian nuts and some even flew to Russia to volunteer in vaxx trials, they're mostly concerned how to make everyone take the death vaxx now.
Company leadership sent woke emails all the time, usually, one time it was trannies and toilets, next it was mourning that Trump won, mandatory diversity trainings every year. No, thanks.
The entire corporate culture isn't something I find to be acceptable: HR witches, oppressive environment, PC speech, snitches and rats backstabbing culture, work visa hordes from certain country who're allowed to discriminate against everyone else, workaholic enviornment, checking one like for government clearance for a spy job just to get hired, demands for references (so you can't leave on bad terms like I heard was possible in France, next company will call your past employer 100%)
 
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ilostabet

Pelican
I'm a "wagey" with a decent salary myself, enough that my wife doesn't have to work. My job is pretty interesting, I have generous vacation time (for the US, at least), I get along with my coworkers, and now that I'm 100% working from home I get to spend a lot more time with my family. If my life is slavery, I'm not sure what American black people are so upset about.

I would say, with Solon Robinson, that not only was the condition of slaves in the American South better than their industrial 'free' contemporaries (by many measures), it was also by some measures quite preferable to the predicament of the average 'wagie' today.

Some quotes from his investigation (“Negro Slavery in the South,” 1849):

[on slaves vs. industrial workers]
«And here let me inquire, what is slavery—you understand it? Is it to be better fed, better clothed, better housed, better lodged, better provided and cared for in infancy, sickness and old age, better loved and respected by master, mistress, children and fellow laborers, better instructed in the principles of morality and religion, and, finally, at the close of a long life of light labor, comfort and happiness, to be better and more decently buried, than are millions of the laboring population of FREEMEN in Europe, and thousands of the same class in this boasted land of liberty? For this is most truly the condition of slaves in the South.»

[on the English Industrial workers]
«…what is a freeman? Stand forth, first, we who shout "long live queen Victoria;" while I display the enviable condition of Britania's free born citizens. Come forth from your damp and crowded cellars and fireless dens of squalid wretchedness, and exhibit your starved and emaciated forms, your sickly countenances, your toil-worn, youthful, crooked spines, your swelled joints and contorted limbs, clothed in so scanty a supply of filthy rags that they are hardly sufficient to harbor the vermin, or hide the nakedness, of proud anti-slavery England's freemen! Come forth from your dark and dismal coal-mine caverns, a thousand feet below the surface of the earth, where you live upon a scanty pittance that barely supports life, while you are able to toil, but now you are past it: come forth, then, and enjoy, in your toil-worn premature old age, the comforts provided for you in freedom's work-house. (...) They have been worked, beat, duck'd and starved, and compelled, like machines, to stand up to their toil, till at the first sound of the releasing bell, they sink to the floor, unable to put forth another effort, and would rather there die than undertake at this hour to walk to their miserable homes»
 

PUA_Rachacha

Woodpecker
Please tell me what plan is this: "$40/month for good health plan". Seriously, please tell me which company offers a $40/month medical plan.
I pay zero monthly premiums for my health plan. And it's not a dog-shit plan.

And bucky brings up a good point: you get paid vacation from firms too. I get six weeks from my firm. Plus 11 federal holidays.

FrereJacques has figured it out for his situation in France, but I'm very familiar with Germany, worked there, have a lot of friends, etc., and most of them that were contractors eventually come back into the company fold. Generally when they have kids and need that steady paycheck. If FrereJacques doesn't plan on having kids, then he'll probably be fine, but you never know when a good Catholic girl crosses your path. Happened to me, and now I have two kids and want one more.

 

ilostabet

Pelican
You're talking about a plan for a single person, I imagine. That sounds about right to me. For a spouse and children it will be much more. I'm paying some thing like $480

So basically, nothing to complain about. That's how I'd describe my life. It's at least pretty good most of the time. Great a lot of the time. Maybe being a slave isn't so bad. Bunch of ingrates complaining about slavery. I get you.

Well, I don't complain because I seem to be in a similar situation to yours, and it isn't so bad - especially now working from home all the time. The majority of people in the 'first world' have it much worse, no doubt. Still, I would prefer to be a slave in the south, working in the fields, than doing what I do now at the computer. It was a much healthier life, physically and spiritually.
 

aynrus

Pelican
I don't have kids and not looking to get back into company slavery....if I had kids and mortgage (death note) working for employer would probably be an item. Have no debt, no kids and don't want any.
 

bucky

Ostrich
Well, I don't complain because I seem to be in a similar situation to yours, and it isn't so bad - especially now working from home all the time. The majority of people in the 'first world' have it much worse, no doubt. Still, I would prefer to be a slave in the south, working in the fields, than doing what I do now at the computer. It was a much healthier life, physically and spiritually.
There was some kind of formatting disaster when I originally replied and that part about $480 for health care wasn't supposed to post. I think it's actually twice that. It was also supposed to be in a separate post from the part about slavery.

Nevertheless, have you ever actually lived in the third world or the FSU? Not traveled, lived. As in being there permanently for years, knowing the language, being familiar with the day-to-day life of regular people there. Guys here hate, hate, hate to hear this, but we still have it far better in the US. Being a low level wagey sucks here, but if you're smart you have lots of opportunity to move up. The system isn't "fair" and there are a lot of problems, but we're far better of than places like Honduras and Zimbabwe. That's why those people mostly want to come here.

I've managed to build a great life for myself in the US. Great wife and kids, comfy little house, two reliable cars, and I'm generally happy most of the time. There's nothing special about me. If I can do it, anyone can.
 
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