Normies and the Russian-Ukraine war

[Max Roscoe]

I'm shocked soldiers are allowed to have cell phones on the battlefield. At best, it can be a distraction, at worst, it's a homing beacon for the enemy, a propaganda device, and a pornography machine moved out of the mattress and into 24/7 access. What's the rationale, so the guys can play video games in their down time?

All apps spy on you, and despite all the silly paranoia about things like TikTok, in a war situation, the phone becomes a serious security threat. Even if their use is controlled during "on duty" hours, these phones are broadcasting nonstop, and can collect tons of information, from the weather (are you indoors or outdoors) to number of troops (how many other devices can it see nearby) to GPS location and movement. it's quite a bit different from a lone communications soldier sending a brief radio message.

 

[911]

The Current Thing is strong with that one.

 

[TruckDriver9]

 

[eradicator]

The Current Thing is strong with that one.

Probably fake. I mean her photo is a turd with legs

 

[Easy_C]

There's some remarkable normie cringe in these old forums (old gen-x aged gamers).
The amount of psychological projection is astounding.

Russia invades Ukraine - Page 42

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60503037 What the fuck Russia? If anyone here is in Ukraine or has loved ones who are, I hope they are safe. This is some bullshit we could really do without right now.

www.ttlg.com

 

[TruckDriver9]

 

[ginsu]

In the gym locker room, some middle-aged men were talking about the war. Blaming our beta leaders for not wiping out putins 100-200k soldiers by sending 100 airplanes with bombs. Alpha leaders would have sorted out this situation at the start according to the man. I guess this is pretty representative of the average nonleftist male beliefs

 

[get2choppaaa]

I had an interaction with my family the other day that was rather unpleasant.

For context, both my aunt and uncle are doctors. My uncle is a well know sports medicine doctor who's worked with many professional athletes and they are not stupid people. (Both of them however have been pushing the vaccine since it's the In thing)

This side of the family is from Lviv, and we have some ties to family there, losely. They are Evangellicals, my cousin by marriage is a youth pastor. Last week my aunt posted an NPR artilce from June 2022 about the removal of Russian from Ukrainian public language. I said "this is a coup that turned into a civil war, and we don't need to be prolonging the suffering of Ukranian people, who's population has been cut in half, bt championing a corrupt regime ran by Jews. She then shared how they had some Ukranian evangelical come to their church, where the donated a generator to and how inspiriing her story was and all that... and then tried to lecture me about "its not theoritical and strategy these are real people" .... as though I havent seen first hand what happens in war and as though I haven't seen the depth of man's depravity in the form of inhumanity toward their fellow man.

I quickly reminded the group chat, that unlike them I do know what I am talking about, unlike them, I do understand the culture much more significantly than they pretend to.... being that I have Ukranian and Russian friends from Chruch, being Orthodox, and having served in the military. When I shared a video of Col McGreggor expalining the state of whats to come as well as the historical analysis of the war... I was told "he's a discredited Putin Shill" as though anyone who doesnt agree with the MSNBC narrative is automatically a shill.

That's akin to calling someone a REEECISSST for citing the FBI crime statistics.... you just cant interact with these sorts of people.

There in lies the rub. People are either emotionally driven or they are logical. We see so much "expereintial" truth and witness so much of people being driven by their feelings as a matter of daily life choices.

It is just a fundamental difference of perception and world view. I've tried to expalin to my evangelical family memebers, that its not the norm for Orthodox folks to have great emotional bursts and feelings as part of the service, Of course you feel things and of course sometimes things just click and you have epiphanies of understanding in the faith.... but the point of the service is not to build you up to a crescendo of emotion...rather to help center you for the week as you conduct daily prayer life.

It is incredibly hard to try and discuss serious topics with people who are engrosssed in the emotional elements of life.... I have no idea why these people think they need to push their thoughts on you and get so deeply offended when you merely point out the other side of the argument.

 

[Wutang]

Posted this in another thread but wanted to post it up here as well to get some responses from other people

If you wanted to convince a normie about why to support Russia, what sort of reasons would you give? A lot of the support normies have for Ukraine is mostly because Russia made the initial move. They aren't aware of the geopolitical situations such as the creeping influence of NATO which caused Russia to pull the trigger on the operation. A lot of these western normies whether they be conservative or liberals also see their societies as being more advanced and cultured then Russian society and want Ukraine to be incorporated into the Western-sphere so how can they be convinced to support Russia?

 

[Thomas More]

Posted this in another thread but wanted to post it up here as well to get some responses from other people

If you wanted to convince a normie about why to support Russia, what sort of reasons would you give? A lot of the support normies have for Ukraine is mostly because Russia made the initial move. They aren't aware of the geopolitical situations such as the creeping influence of NATO which caused Russia to pull the trigger on the operation. A lot of these western normies whether they be conservative or liberals also see their societies as being more advanced and cultured then Russian society and want Ukraine to be incorporated into the Western-sphere so how can they be convinced to support Russia?

Basically, I wouldn't even make the attempt. That's like getting anybody to do anything prudent, whether it is teaching a blue pilled single guy what women really want, or teaching a spendthrift to manage their money, or a person with poor nutrition how to eat well.

Telling any normie that the vaxx is bad, or Russia is the aggrieved party in the current conflict, or illegal immigration hurts the country, or any other issue like this will never change their mind. It can only cause problems for you.

In a sense this doesn't answer your question, because you want to know what to say if you want to try. However, I think the answer is that there is nothing that will work.


Edit: I think the one exception is social pressure. Basically, if a normie gets in with a group of people, such as the members of RVF, and they generally like the group and want to be part of it, then they will start to take on opinions and attitudes shared by the existing members of the group. So, if the normie you have in mind has recently become part of a group of people who see things the way you currently do, then you might be able to help swing that normie around to your ways of thinking.

 

[get2choppaaa]

Basically, I wouldn't even make the attempt. That's like getting anybody to do anything prudent, whether it is teaching a blue pilled single guy what women really want, or teaching a spendthrift to manage their money, or a person with poor nutrition how to eat well.

Telling any normie that the vaxx is bad, or Russia is the aggrieved party in the current conflict, or illegal immigration hurts the country, or any other issue like this will never change their mind. It can only cause problems for you.

In a sense this doesn't answer your question, because you want to know what if you want to try. However, I think the answer is that there is nothing that will work.

Ask them to watch "Ukraine on Fire"

Ask them who was Stepan Bandera?

Ask them what cause Crimea to Secede?

Ask them what they know about the minsk Accords?

Ask them about the biolabs?

If they arent willing to look into any of these things then its a moot point. Early on I was more supportive of Ukraine, and there are elements of it during the EARLY stages of the war that I was more upset with the Russian actions, though I knew where their justification came from.... but as this has transpired more and more and more towards total totalitarian/blasphemous derailment, It's really impossible to support the Ukrainian government's cause.

Ask them, If the US took the same stance towards Mexicans that the Ukranians took towards Russians, would they support it (personally I would absolutely love the outlawing of Spanish....but Im still working on keeping Texas Anglo through breeding despite being surrounded by Mexicans)

Don't get me wrong, there are legitimate reasons/arguments for why you could argue Ukraine should have Donetsk/Lugansk/Crimea from a soverignty stand point. There are international law points both Ukraine and the terrirories who seceded can argue... so its not purely black and white. However, no-one is making that argument. Instead its all emotional appeal.

 

[Thomas More]

Ask them to watch "Ukraine on Fire"

Ask them who was Stepan Bandera?

Ask them what cause Crimea to Secede?

Ask them what they know about the minsk Accords?

Ask them about the biolabs?
If they aren't willing to look into any of these things then its a moot point.

I agree with this in the positive sense that they may already be open to switching positions.

If a normie is having doubts about the pro-Ukraine position, and is open to information that can change his mind, then it is possible to help them understand, and these are good ideas for how to show them the other side of the argument. If they are open to changing positions, they will be willing to check out some of these sources.

 

[911]

Posted this in another thread but wanted to post it up here as well to get some responses from other people

If you wanted to convince a normie about why to support Russia, what sort of reasons would you give? A lot of the support normies have for Ukraine is mostly because Russia made the initial move. They aren't aware of the geopolitical situations such as the creeping influence of NATO which caused Russia to pull the trigger on the operation. A lot of these western normies whether they be conservative or liberals also see their societies as being more advanced and cultured then Russian society and want Ukraine to be incorporated into the Western-sphere so how can they be convinced to support Russia?

I would choose the angle that the war is futile for Ukraine, they are losing men by the hundreds of thousands, currently half a million dead or wounded, and most of them don't want to fight and are forcefully drafted.

Russia is going to win anyway, they have much greater resources, the West is simply prolonging the war with no chance of changing the outcome, and that further escalation with NATO could lead to a world war, or even a nuclear holocaust.

So the best and only solution for Ukraine would be to negotiate a settlement with Russia.

 

[get2choppaaa]

I would choose the angle that the war is futile for Ukraine, they are losing men by the hundreds of thousands, currently half a million dead or wounded, and most of them don't want to fight and are forcefully drafted.

Russia is going to win anyway, they have much greater resources, the West is simply prolonging the war with no chance of changing the outcome, and that further escalation with NATO could lead to a world war, or even a nuclear holocaust.

So the best and only solution for Ukraine would be to negotiate a settlement with Russia.

The problem with that tactic is that people are going to double down on the emotion and dislike Russia even more. They don't operate on the REAL-Politik sense.

 

[Samseau]

Most American normies live in fantasy land of American being able to do anything. They watch too many fake movies and fake news programs, they have no idea what the real world is like anymore.

A totally brainwashed population can only be met with mocking IMO. Rather than try and convince, just drop truth bombs and mock them when they react emotionally.

"Yes Russia is a weak country that's why we need to send trillions more to beat them."

Agree and amplify works best at crushing someone's cognitive dissonance in my experience, although they may hate you for a bit afterwards, eventually as the months roll on they accept it as truth.

Look at how they acted with vaccines. Only time can move someone's stubborness, so all you really need to do is point out the absurdity in their beliefs, and then move on. When they are ready to understand they will.

 

[RedLagoon]

I have family staying at the moment and there's nothing you can do to make them believe different on this situation. I'm called a Putin loverboy just by stating objective facts and nothing actually pro Putin just not the MSN propaganda angle. Putin apparently is so evil that the west needs to just nuke Moscow asap to free the Russian people from the maniac without understanding the ramifications of such an act. They also have zero understanding in the irony of what they're saying. It's kind of heartbreaking to see your own loved ones be so retarded, they were with the vaxx but the Russia thing brings out a whole other sick beast, there is an extreme anger. Whatever propaganda they're watching on the TV must be very depraved and effective.

 

[paternos]

I have family staying at the moment and there's nothing you can do to make them believe different on this situation. I'm called a Putin loverboy just by stating objective facts and nothing actually pro Putin just not the MSN propaganda angle. Putin apparently is so evil that the west needs to just nuke Moscow asap to free the Russian people from the maniac without understanding the ramifications of such an act. They also have zero understanding in the irony of what they're saying. It's kind of heartbreaking to see your own loved ones be so retarded, they were with the vaxx but the Russia thing brings out a whole other sick beast, there is an extreme anger. Whatever propaganda they're watching on the TV must be very depraved and effective.

True.

I think it has to do with our education system.

We are taught we are stupid for on average 15 years in schools, so way into adulthood, and all we needed to do is copy the teacher to become "smart".

It's a Pavlovian reaction that when we see people in suits or white coats. We repeat what they say. And if we repeat that well, we get compliments or money, or social status.

Those that went most to school and did university are worst in my opinion. They even have an arrogance as they repeat what they heard in the late night talk show for intellectuals the day before. How often I heard things like: "It's incredible what Putin is doing, yesterday a political expert from the .... institute was in .... and explained the machinations within the Russian ministry of foreign affairs."

In my experience those that went to school the least, those that were kicked out, or people that do manual labour without education that don't read papers or watch political TV have a great sense of understanding of the world by their own experience. They almost all naturally strongly distrust the government.

It's actually slavery, mental slavery, which leads them from the truth, so far they can't even grasp it anymore, I think this is why the churches are empty. Jesus is too radical. It's incomprehensible to modern man. "If he were the son of God, and when the Jews asked him to perform tricks, why didn't he?"

That's the thing, they can't grasp that you don't do, what you're told to do.

 

[mountainaire]

and get so deeply offended when you merely point out the other side of the argument

I believe people react this way about current thing because in a roundabout way you're showing them that they got duped. People fancy themselves as so intelligent and independent minded that there's no way they could possibly be fooled by something like propaganda. I witnessed this same reaction from a boomer acquaintance when this topic came up.

Some people don't have much of a personal identity to speak of, so they echo current thing. Exposing them to the other side of the argument, which they've likely been completely shielded from, can get interpreted as a direct personal attack by these people.

...and when the propaganda stops, all of these people will move on, and pretend it never happened. The people I watched freak out over covid now just pretend it never happened. They never admitted that they were wrong, they never admitted that they got got, nothing. It seems the vast majority of people display no outward indicators that they're even capable of self reflection and self analyzation.

 

[paternos]

I believe people react this way about current thing because in a roundabout way you're showing them that they got duped. People fancy themselves as so intelligent and independent minded that there's no way they could possibly be fooled by something like propaganda. I witnessed this same reaction from a boomer acquaintance when this topic came up.

Some people don't have much of a personal identity to speak of, so they echo current thing. Exposing them to the other side of the argument, which they've likely been completely shielded from, can get interpreted as a direct personal attack by these people.

I have been in the current thing myself for years.

It's a working system, that kind of holds up if you don't question a lot of things, if you just go with the flow.

Changing your mind on something meaningful is hard.

And there is a secondary effect, if you enter the realm of distrusting narrative, what is more untrue?

It's a totally different perspective, I remember I laughed at "conspiracy nutcases" who were nervously passionate that 9/11 was a setup. I was pro-Israel, because Palestine looked like a shit hole compared to Israel which was looking good. I wanted to be part of the good guys, the elite, suits, all fancy.

When I was brought to my knees my perspective changed drastically, I was living in a bubble and any inconvenient information I kept outside.

On the other side, I was in a constant form or stress, I couldn't grasp why the central banks were constantly decreasing the interest rates, I was reading Mises and just couldn't grasp it, why? Or the holocaust, why are there no remnants of all the burned bodies? Why are there just as many jews before the war as after the war? Why was everyone investing in non-dividend paying assets? But for long I could live with these discongruities. I concluded I was probably was too stupid and I just didn't understand it.

Jesus was the road for me. A radical love of truth. Being truth, and in all Bible stories the last ones are the first.

We are about to read on the Samaritan woman.

John 4 / 5-42

Bible Gateway passage: John 4:5-42 - New International Version

So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon. When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me...

www.biblegateway.com

Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” They came out of the town and made their way toward him. Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.”

While she spread the word, his disciples were wondering has Jesus eaten?

She gets it totally, directly, and turns, leaving her water jar, after a life of sin.

It's this radical transformation.

This is why many are so afraid of religious conversation. As it is radical, it demands a total change of heart.

And this woman after a life of sin, sees the truth, and says yes to him and goes out there to tell the truth. That's of an immense beauty. And that's how it is. This is Jesus in action, these acts of healing. Of relating again to truth, to God.

But she isn't stressed.

The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

A desire for truth. If we know we know, we don't need anymore lies, a new man, a new woman.

Exposing them to the other side of the argument, which they've likely been completely shielded from, can get interpreted as a direct personal attack by these people.

The light of truth is so strong, many are afraid of it and just close the curtains as quickly as possible. As it will destroy much of their thoughts, beliefs, concepts of self, of the world, and you realize you are nothing. You had no clue.

I'm not as strong as this Samaritan woman, I have been slowly opening the curtains out of curiosity for the truth and then closing them again then opening.

I fear the truth. But my desire for truth is stronger than my desire.

But the Samaritan woman is right. That's the right approach. Leave the jar behind and get to the real source.