North Korea Conflict Thread

Thomas More

Hummingbird
This article is from May 2014, a year before Trump announced his candidacy for president. Rodman says that when he couldn't get Obama and the US government to respond to Kim's message of wanting peace, he tried to get Oprah to come, then he tried to get Donald Trump to come to NK, to hear the same thing from Kim. He said Trump was going to do it, and let Rodman use his plane, but then he backed out.

Trump had the background view from Rodman the whole time, since before he announced his candidacy!

The Catalyst said:
This old interview with Dennis Rodman, might have everything put in perspective. Digging through the rabbit hole of Thomas Wictor, Conservative treehouse, this seems really fascinating and leads me to believe Kim's a good guy but trapped by forces much more powerful than him(such as China). And Kim being so happy and beaming is that Trump actually saved/rescued him.

http://www.businessinsider.com/denn...-and-hanging-out-with-kim-jong-un-2014-5?IR=T

Dennis Rodman Talks About His Controversial Trips To North Korea And Hanging Out With Kim Jong-Un

He's early. It's just after 10 a.m. at the Turnberry Isle Country Club in Aventura, Florida, and in walks Dennis Rodman—all six feet seven inches of him, wearing a tattered baseball cap emblazoned with "Cheetah Gentlemen's Club," a wrinkled cotton T-shirt, black nylon track pants and a pair of impossibly large boat shoes with laces tied in haphazard knots.

The oversized women's sunglasses he wears will remain secured to his face for the duration of the interview.

Rodman, 52, is initially standoffish. "Let's make this quick," he says quietly. But once he starts talking, he opens up and over the next two hours delivers as promised, with a frank conversation about North Korea, the nation that has consumed his life for the past 15 months.

For the uninitiated, the story goes like this: As part of a documentary series they were creating, producers at the media company Vice gained access to the Communist country — which is off-limits to Americans — by catering to North Korean leader Kim Jong-un's obsession with the Chicago Bulls. The producers reached out to Rodman, inviting him to North Korea for an exhibition basketball game alongside three members of the Harlem Globetrotters. Rodman agreed.

Rodman's first trip to North Korea took place in February 2013. Since then, he says he's visited six times. He calls Kim a "friend for life," and as a result has been condemned by some in America as a traitor and a dupe.

But however you judge him, the provocative basketball player is now a potential source of information about a country that is inaccessible to most of the world. From the outside looking in, we see only Kim Jong-un's appalling human-rights record and his country's notorious famines, state executions and other abuses — but Rodman has a different perspective.

DuJour: Starting from the very beginning — can you talk about what it was like the first time you set foot in the country?

Dennis Rodman: It's nothing like you've seen over here. Not even close. It's funny, because when I first went there it was so…Communist. Dry and dreary and like, I don't know. Everything is so dead. Like The Walking Dead. But the third time I went there, wow. [Pyongyang] changed a lot. New buildings were popping up and [Kim] is building all these new condos and hotels. He built the largest water park in the world, a ski resort and this big bowling alley. He's doing everything for these people. You could go bowl for a quarter all day or go swimming all day for like 50 cents.

DJ: So in your view he's "for the people," yet he's almost universally regarded as a hostile dictator. How do you reconcile that?

DR: He's for the people. I wish they had somebody that could actually come back with me. You've got a five-foot-one president in a small country that scares the s--t out of people on this earth. And people here want to know, "Is he this tyrant? Does he kill people?" I've been around him and his compound, I've been to his vacation spots. If I would have seen something negative about him, I probably would have come back and said so.

DJ: I realize you're not a foreign-policy expert, but when you're visiting, don't you think they're only showing you the part that they want to show you?

DR: I know the media very well. It can work against you, it can work for you. And for me, I've been dealing with negative publicity all my damn life. But when it comes to politics, I never got involved in that s--t.

DJ: It's hard to shock Dennis Rodman. But did that happen at any time in your trips?

DR: It was only one thing. When I walked into that stadium [for the first game], I sat down, and this little guy walks in. The Harlem Globetrotters were playing and I was sitting on the bench, and he sits right beside me. Seriously, I didn't know who this f-ker was! People were sitting there kissing his hand and crying and giving their babies to him. I couldn't believe these people — men and women sitting there crying for 25 minutes — and this kid's like yay tall! They had this little chant and all the people were on their knees bowing down to this guy. That's what shocked me right there. I've been around — I've seen a lot of leaders — but not like that. That's how I actually met Kim.

The other thing I was really shocked at was when I went to see the grandfather and the father in the mausoleum. It's about five times bigger than Aventura Mall. The whole thing, I swear to God, it's five miles in diameter. You cannot run, you cannot walk, you have to get in this escalator. The grandfather is in the middle of the room with all his pictures and stuff, and he's frozen. That's a true story! You can't never bow in front of his head, you have to go around him and bow. I'm like, "Damn! This s--t looks real!" They said yeah, he's frozen forever. The father's frozen, same thing. Each room is that big and the room after that is for [Kim]. That's what tripped me out. 150,000 people go in a day. They have to wear black suits. You see them crying the whole time. That's what trips me out about the country. They all cry.

DJ: How would you describe Kim Jong-un's personality?

DR: When he's around his people, he's just like anybody else. He jokes and loves playing basketball, table tennis, pool. They love American '80s music. They do karaoke to it. He has this 13-piece girls band with violins. He gets a mic and they play the whole time. He loves The Doors and Jimi Hendrix. Oldies. When I first went, the live band only played two songs for four hours: the theme songs from Rocky and Dallas.

DJ: Is he image conscious?

DR: His wife is. They've been married two years. She don't dress like a typical [North] Korean. She likes Gucci, Versace. She dressed really cool. And Kim dressed pretty much in black, gray, brown. He made me two suits. They come right there and make a suit for you in two hours.

DJ: What have your interactions been like with his family?

DR: I've been around his whole family; I've held his baby. No one's ever held his baby before but me. I got pictures of me holding his infant. I gave [his daughter] a little Rodman jersey, we took pictures of it. Me, him and her and his wife. I have a lot of pictures of that in my safe-deposit box.

DJ: How did the second exhibition game, on his birthday, come about?

DR: He was making fun of the Harlem Globetrotters, saying he didn't want a circus the next time. We were on this big-ass yacht — it's like a Lady Moura, a 400-foot yacht, like a cruise ship. And we were having dinner and I said, "I should throw a basketball game here. Just me and I'll bring a lot of athletes. When is your birthday?" And he said January 8, so I said, "Let's do it on your birthday." And he jumped up in the air, started clapping and telling everybody, "Oh my God! He's throwing a basketball game for me!"

DJ: So you put a group together of seven retired NBA players and brought them over. Afterward, some of the players say they were misled about the trip. They thought they were going to play for charity. Is that true?

DR: Bulls--t. Bulls--t, bulls--t, bulls--t. They knew.

DJ: And they got paid…

DR: Who paid 'em? I paid 'em! I paid them before they went over there.

DJ: Roughly how much?

DR: $30,000 to $35,000 each.

DJ: So you said, "It's Kim Jong-un's birthday, I'll give you $35,000 for three days, do you want to come?" And they all said yes?

DR: Yeah. They didn't realize we had a camera rolling 24-7 [for a BBC-produced documentary]. [Filming] them saying, "Oh, I love North Korea!"

DJ: Do you get any money from the North Korean government? An appearance fee?

DR: No, there's no money. I do it for free.

DJ: Has Kim Jong-un discussed anything political with you?

DR: I've never told this to anyone, but the last time I was there, they just came out and started saying stuff about what they want from Americans. How they want to rewrite the peace treaty, they want us to get the ships out of South Korea. He's saying the reason why they have the nuclear bombs is because they know that Americans think they can take over. He says, "I don't want to bomb anyone. But we keep our nuclear weapons because we're such a small country — that's the only way we can defend ourselves." They just want people in America and the government to know they don't hate Americans. They want to work with Americans. They just want them to abide by the agreement that they wrote up years ago.

DJ: So up until that point you had never talked politics?

DR: No, it was more casual, just joking and laughing. But when I heard that [political discussion] me and my friend were like, Oh my God, now it's getting serious. That's the first time I ever heard that. That takes it to a whole different level.

DJ: And how did you respond?

DR: He said, "Well, we just want to try to straighten this out and try to open the doors with Americans." I thought that I was going to get engaged in trying to negotiate some type of deal with the Americans. And after all of that, we came back for a dinner, and the first thing he said was, "Don't worry about it. That's OK. Don't do that. We don't want you to get involved."

DJ: You've said in the past that Kim Jong-un wants President Obama to call him. Can you elaborate on that?

DR: He really, really wants to talk to Obama. He can't say it enough. He wants to talk to him to try to open that door a little bit. He's saying that he doesn't want to bomb anybody. He said, "I don't want to kill Americans." He loves Americans.

DJ: Have you ever seen anything alarming in your time there?

DR: It's just like any other country, you go to Russia, Germany, you're gonna see soldiers all over the place. You see soldiers that carry guns and sit at the airports. It's just like that.

DJ: But the difference is that in North Korea there are hundreds of thousands of people suffering and starving in labor camps.

DR: You name any country in the world… Which country does not have that s--t? Every country has that.

DJ: When you hear that people are dying of malnourishment and being overworked — have you been in the fields, have you seen that?

DR: I've seen it. They work for peanuts. But like I said, he's not like his grandfather or father. He's not like that. He's actually trying to change it. He's actually doing cool things for these people, and that's why they love him so much.

DJ: And the accusations about him having his family members killed…

DR: You could say anything here about North Korea and people would believe it. The last time I went there, when they said they killed his girlfriend, they killed his uncle, they just fed him to the dogs… They were standing right behind me.

DJ: You're saying that the uncle that the North Korean government itself confirms was executed is actually alive?

DR: He was standing right there.

DJ: Are you ever concerned about your safety when you're over there?

DR: I love my country. I love my country to death. And there's no other place in the world I'd rather live. But if I go to North Korea — the next time I go to North Korea — the fear for me of not coming back… It won't be because of North Korea. So I'm just letting you know right now… [long pause] That's the real truth. Read between the lines on that one.

DJ: So you think the American government would have a problem with you coming back into the country?

DR: When I go there, it's going to be a problem coming back. Because they could actually stop me from coming back. They could actually pull my passport. They already told me that. They're afraid of me because I know so much.

DJ: "They" being…?

DR: Americans. Our government. They've got to be careful what they say, what they do, so I respect that. But for me, I mean, it's freedom of speech. I'm not hurting anybody, I'm not putting anybody in danger, I'm just telling what I see. I have that leverage now that no one in the world has.

DJ: Is it true you're being indicted by the U.S. Treasury?

DR: They want to indict me. And I'm like, "For what?" Treason. They've threatened me. They said I gave his wife a fur coat, a dress, I gave all these gifts. I was like, "I did? No I didn't!"

DJ: Have you ever asked the U.S. government for support?

DR: I said six months ago [to the government], "Why don't you guys help me?" They didn't even give me a f-king response, so I was like, f-k it. I just wish people would actually take advantage of the situation that I have, instead of ridiculing me about everything I do. It's so unfair. It's very hard to try to do something like that in North Korea by yourself when the government don't want to help you.

DJ: Why do you think that is?

DR: If Magic Johnson went over there, it would have been a whole different story. He would have had so many people helping him to do some good stuff for the world. But I did this all by myself. I want to go back and take a couple people with me so they could actually see it and say, "Hey, you know what? It's actually true what he's been saying."

DJ: Who do you have in mind?

DR: I asked Oprah to go with me next time. I've asked quite a few people. Donald Trump wanted to go. He wanted to give me his plane to go over there. Then all of sudden he started to get all weird and s--t.

DJ: Does this make you more interested in politics or less?

DR: People put me in a category as this diplomat, this ambassador, which I don't want to be. This is a sports thing. In 10 to 15 years, this is going to be historical. Watch. Because I went there for sports. No one's ever done that! It's using sports to open the doors for communication around the world. Going through sports, not through politics. So that people can see North Korea in a great light. That little kid is changing North Korea for the better, and once we see that, maybe he'll just loosen up and start opening the door for the people of the world. That's it.
 

MrLemon

Ostrich
The Catalyst said:
This old interview with Dennis Rodman, might have everything put in perspective. Digging through the rabbit hole of Thomas Wictor, Conservative treehouse, this seems really fascinating and leads me to believe Kim's a good guy but trapped by forces much more powerful than him(such as China). And Kim being so happy and beaming is that Trump actually saved/rescued him.

http://www.businessinsider.com/denn...-and-hanging-out-with-kim-jong-un-2014-5?IR=T

Dennis Rodman Talks About His Controversial Trips To North Korea And Hanging Out With Kim Jong-Un

He's early. It's just after 10 a.m. at the Turnberry Isle Country Club in Aventura, Florida, and in walks Dennis Rodman—all six feet seven inches of him, wearing a tattered baseball cap emblazoned with "Cheetah Gentlemen's Club," a wrinkled cotton T-shirt, black nylon track pants and a pair of impossibly large boat shoes with laces tied in haphazard knots.

(snip)

This is a fantastic interview, thanks for posting. This is the reality of the world, untainted by the asshole "professional diplomats".

The left wing, Obama, are UTTERLY DISHONEST. They want the world's affairs, like North Korea, to be their little bullshit narrative that they can use to keep power. It's all about maintaining power. That's why Obama never chatted in a friendly way with Kim. Because he's a fucking little wormy cheap power grabber. Having NK as an evil empire keeps X number of old school diplomats employed...that is the only equation the Federal government has cared about for years.

They were threatening Rodman for taking gifts to NK? What the fuck? That is how completely evil the swamp is.

Now here is Trump saying "what the fuck? We could have opened NK years ago, Kim is just an average young dude who is trapped in a horror show and likes video games". He just steps in and does it.

How many times will we be reminded, in the remaining 6 years of Trump's presidency, what a fucking worthless loser Obama was?
 

MrLemon

Ostrich
MrLemon said:
Laner said:
Zelcorpion said:
North Korea could easily come out of the malaise by simply following in the footsteps of China, heck even loosely on Singapore.

Just have a communist leadership while opening the economic model to capitalist - call it communist free market for all I care.

The labor cost advantage of that high-IQ industrious population is so far, that the Chinese Iphone factories will look like California to them.

It would be laughably easy to improve living standards of the population. I doubt that the people would suddenly rise up against him. But whatever - we shall see what happens.

Holding the summit in Singapore was a genius move by Trump.

He was able to show KJU that "see, Singapore is also the result of dictatorship. It can be done, and you don't have to feel threatened."

He showed Kim a video of North Korea with condos and speedboats. Oh fuck me.

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/6/12/17452876/trump-kim-jong-un-meeting-north-korea-video

I'm a salesman. I know the business. I stand at awe. This is masterful salesmanship, of the kind that will change the diplomatic world forever. This is earthshaking in the political world.

Diplomacy has been carried out according to principles of a century ago. Slow, ponderous, boring, stupid, and ancient.

Now Trump brings in modern sales techniques (really, fairly simple stuff, a 4 minute video) and they blow out every preconception. In retrospect, what a fucking obvious move but wow. Every corporate CEO in the world is sitting back today and enjoying a deep respectful chuckle.

The Democrats are so completely and utterly and deeply fucked. Oh they are fucked.

Oh my love of America and it's system is so strong today. The people in their infinite wisdom chose Trump instead of that horrific witch. The genius of the people forever renewing, forever healing, even when the political system is that badly broken.

Scott Adams picked up on my post yesterday (heh) and also agrees that the video is the "best thing ever".

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yNxaXaBWXdJj

Good to know that Scott is still following my lead.

Anybody who doesn't watch this movie will never understand the next few years. This is so fucking funny. I laughed for 10 minutes. I bet Kim and Donald both laughed. It's silly but totally true.

And this is this is finally, finally, when the ancient doddering shitty stupid diplomats, the Robert Muellers of the world, holding on to the reins of power like some 200 year old general who'd still fighting Napoleon, finally get retired. By modern marketing techniques.
 

kaotic

Owl
Gold Member
fokker said:
When the Koreas reunite, Trump should make Rodman the ambassador to the unified country.

Unfortunately I don't think the Koreans will be reunited anytime soon.

Read Leonard's response to this.

At best they'll be heavily controlled nation states at the borders or something similar.

You have two complete opposite cultures, opening the borders would cause so much chaos.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
kaotic said:
fokker said:
When the Koreas reunite, Trump should make Rodman the ambassador to the unified country.

Unfortunately I don't think the Koreans will be reunited anytime soon.

Read Leonard's response to this.

At best they'll be heavily controlled nation states at the borders or something similar.

You have two complete opposite cultures, opening the borders would cause so much chaos.

The problem is that there is no rationale for the North Korean state/government/regime to exist as a separate state once they open up to South Korea and the world.

Unification will be messy, expensive, and slow, but it will be inevitable, even if not soon.

Just look at this video - for the last 1,000 years, Korea has been a united, independent nation state except for brief periods under foreign occupation.


Even with Northerners growing up under a vastly different political system and intense propaganda, the Korean people deep down know that they are one people and one nation. They have the same genetics, same culture(minus the recent political interference), same language, same food, and a shared history in the various dynasties. There are no other examples on the planet of a people so connected but yet deciding to remain in separate countries. Perhaps this generation will be reluctant to pay for unification, but it can be done slowly to spread out the cost, and plenty of people will make billions off of unleashing NK's potential in the world economy.

I don't quite understand what the endgame is for Kim. Unless Kim just wants out and to be able to live the rest of his life outside politics, I don't see how he benefits in the long run from opening up and/or unification.
 

Lunostrelki

Woodpecker
It's not likely that the Koreas will unify anytime soon. Maybe in a couple generations, if even then.

70 years of separation is massive, especially when you consider the effects of modern culture and technology and how it has impacted society. If the attitude of the average Taiwanese and Hong Konger towards mainland Chinese are at all instructive, and bearing in mind the experiences of North Korean defectors living in South Korea today, the cultural gulf is going to become apparent once North Korea opens itself to trade and exchanges. South Koreans are going to see North Koreans as brainwashed, unscrupulous hicks, and the North Koreans are going to see Southerners as materialist and stuck-up Western lapdogs.

There are also strong political motivations for North Korea to stay independent. Their leadership probably wants to keep the Kim dynasty going, and China is willing to back them in order to keep Korea divided and keep itself company with an autocracy that is unlikely to present a good example for human rights or regime change.
 

MrLemon

Ostrich
Arado said:
kaotic said:
fokker said:
When the Koreas reunite, Trump should make Rodman the ambassador to the unified country.

Unfortunately I don't think the Koreans will be reunited anytime soon.

Read Leonard's response to this.

At best they'll be heavily controlled nation states at the borders or something similar.

You have two complete opposite cultures, opening the borders would cause so much chaos.

The problem is that there is no rationale for the North Korean state/government/regime to exist as a separate state once they open up to South Korea and the world.

Unification will be messy, expensive, and slow, but it will be inevitable, even if not soon.

Just look at this video - for the last 1,000 years, Korea has been a united, independent nation state except for brief periods under foreign occupation.



I don't quite understand what the endgame is for Kim. Unless Kim just wants out and to be able to live the rest of his life outside politics, I don't see how he benefits in the long run from opening up and/or unification.

Maybe the endgame for Kim is that living in hideous starving travesty of a nation isn't that fun for him? Maybe he doesn't want to watch millions of people starve to death because he wasn't willing to act?

Read Rodman's interview...Kim has been trying to reach out to the US for years. Obama just ignored him.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
MrLemon said:
Maybe the endgame for Kim is that living in hideous starving travesty of a nation isn't that fun for him? Maybe he doesn't want to watch millions of people starve to death because he wasn't willing to act?

Read Rodman's interview...Kim has been trying to reach out to the US for years. Obama just ignored him.

Right - but improving the condition of North Koreans is not an endgame. If he wants to stay in power, denuclearization makes it much harder for his regime to remain in power since it puts him at the mercy of greater powers. Opening up also makes it harder because as NK becomes more open, its society will come to resemble SK more and there is no longer a rationale for NK to remain a separate country except for short term administrative convenience. His choice is simple - the precarious status quo, or a slow fadeout from politics once NK opens up and progress towards unification starts.

He very well may be interested in securing a place in history as the unifier rather than holding onto power for life. But that means giving up power at some point. NK can't be both open and prosperous with the current leadership structure in place.

Lunostrelki said:
It's not likely that the Koreas will unify anytime soon. Maybe in a couple generations, if even then.

70 years of separation is massive, especially when you consider the effects of modern culture and technology and how it has impacted society. If the attitude of the average Taiwanese and Hong Konger towards mainland Chinese are at all instructive, and bearing in mind the experiences of North Korean defectors living in South Korea today, the cultural gulf is going to become apparent once North Korea opens itself to trade and exchanges. South Koreans are going to see North Koreans as brainwashed, unscrupulous hicks, and the North Koreans are going to see Southerners as materialist and stuck-up Western lapdogs.

There are also strong political motivations for North Korea to stay independent. Their leadership probably wants to keep the Kim dynasty going, and China is willing to back them in order to keep Korea divided and keep itself company with an autocracy that is unlikely to present a good example for human rights or regime change.

Does 70 years of outsider imposed separation really outweigh over a thousand years of shared history? All the political changes you mention are pretty superficial when measured against genetic commonality and sharing a language.

Taiwan isn't a good example - Taiwan was largely viewed as a backwater for most of Chinese history, and the mainland Ming and Qing dynasty largely ignored it, and from 1895-1945 it was a Japanese colony. Taiwan has only been unified with the mainland between 1945-1949, the rest of the time it's been pretty distant. But, even with all those factors against unification, the mainland government is set on unifying Taiwan, even by force, within a generation.

HK is also a bad example - they were under British control for 150 years or so, far longer than NK and SK were separated, plus Cantonese being the main language there creates another point of cultural separation with the mainland.

Unification will certainly be messy, and there will be a cultural gulf between North and South Koreans. However, that will quickly fade over a generation or two. If the NK people have the freedom to travel and interact with foreigners and South Koreans, I just don't see how either the NK leadership or China can prevent a gradual integration with the south over time. Therefore, selling openness and prosperity to KJU doesn't make sense unless KJU is really just looking to do right for his people and isn't dead set on remaining in power for life.
 

MrLemon

Ostrich
Arado said:
MrLemon said:
Maybe the endgame for Kim is that living in hideous starving travesty of a nation isn't that fun for him? Maybe he doesn't want to watch millions of people starve to death because he wasn't willing to act?

Read Rodman's interview...Kim has been trying to reach out to the US for years. Obama just ignored him.

Right - but improving the condition of North Koreans is not an endgame. If he wants to stay in power, denuclearization makes it much harder for his regime to remain in power since it puts him at the mercy of greater powers. Opening up also makes it harder because as NK becomes more open, its society will come to resemble SK more and there is no longer a rationale for NK to remain a separate country except for short term administrative convenience. His choice is simple - the precarious status quo, or a slow fadeout from politics once NK opens up and progress towards unification starts.

He very well may be interested in securing a place in history as the unifier rather than holding onto power for life. But that means giving up power at some point. NK can't be both open and prosperous with the current leadership structure in place.

Lunostrelki said:
It's not likely that the Koreas will unify anytime soon. Maybe in a couple generations, if even then.

70 years of separation is massive, especially when you consider the effects of modern culture and technology and how it has impacted society. If the attitude of the average Taiwanese and Hong Konger towards mainland Chinese are at all instructive, and bearing in mind the experiences of North Korean defectors living in South Korea today, the cultural gulf is going to become apparent once North Korea opens itself to trade and exchanges. South Koreans are going to see North Koreans as brainwashed, unscrupulous hicks, and the North Koreans are going to see Southerners as materialist and stuck-up Western lapdogs.

There are also strong political motivations for North Korea to stay independent. Their leadership probably wants to keep the Kim dynasty going, and China is willing to back them in order to keep Korea divided and keep itself company with an autocracy that is unlikely to present a good example for human rights or regime change.

Does 70 years of outsider imposed separation really outweigh over a thousand years of shared history? All the political changes you mention are pretty superficial when measured against genetic commonality and sharing a language.

Taiwan isn't a good example - Taiwan was largely viewed as a backwater for most of Chinese history, and the mainland Ming and Qing dynasty largely ignored it, and from 1895-1945 it was a Japanese colony. Taiwan has only been unified with the mainland between 1945-1949, the rest of the time it's been pretty distant. But, even with all those factors against unification, the mainland government is set on unifying Taiwan, even by force, within a generation.

HK is also a bad example - they were under British control for 150 years or so, far longer than NK and SK were separated, plus Cantonese being the main language there creates another point of cultural separation with the mainland.

Unification will certainly be messy, and there will be a cultural gulf between North and South Koreans. However, that will quickly fade over a generation or two. If the NK people have the freedom to travel and interact with foreigners and South Koreans, I just don't see how either the NK leadership or China can prevent a gradual integration with the south over time. Therefore, selling openness and prosperity to KJU doesn't make sense unless KJU is really just looking to do right for his people and isn't dead set on remaining in power for life.

As somebody said above, they can use the Singapore model. Kim was making a lot of appreciative comments about it. Trump is obviously steering him that direction. No doubt, all hugely difficult, but Christ, we rebuilt half of fucking Europe and Japan too after WW2. We have done it, we can do it. We just need people who aren't as fucking incompetent as the current slate of US diplomats.
 
This deal has won a lot of hearts and minds of anti trumpers in my circle. Ppl are starting to see through the lies. The end result of his tenure is that a lot of ppl in the middle ground will be fully woke to the media game. Next stop Moscow.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
MrLemon said:
As somebody said above, they can use the Singapore model. Kim was making a lot of appreciative comments about it. Trump is obviously steering him that direction. No doubt, all hugely difficult, but Christ, we rebuilt half of fucking Europe and Japan too after WW2. We have done it, we can do it. We just need people who aren't as fucking incompetent as the current slate of US diplomats.

Sure, Singapore proves that a government need not democratize in order to develop, but Singapore also doesn't have an ethnically/linguistically identical political entity that it used to be part of for a thousand years right next door that's rich and beckoning it to link up. You can't just copy and paste a political/economic system and expect the same results.

I just don't see how we can appeal to KJU's desire for trade and openness, when the whole reason the NK government is still in power is because they've managed to keep their people closed off and ignorant of the outside world, not to mention torturing dissidents/etc. The level of repression that would be required to hold back gradual integration with South Korea is incompatible with opening up the country to development. This is a very different situation vs. China's reform period.
 

Rush87

Hummingbird
Just a little observation I had:

While watching the meet between Kim and Trump, I noticed that Kim's body language seemed a little on edge, almost fearful. Not because of Trump but more so it looked like a guy doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing.

When we talk politics, a lot of it is speculation based off of very limited information (Or simply the information we're allowed to know) but body language gives us a complete picture of a moment in time.

The roundabout point that I'm making is this: Kim's body language didn't look like that of a man who is in charge of his nation state. It looked like a man who answers to someone else and who was doing something which 'said' person wouldn't approve of.
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
Rush87 said:
Kim's body language didn't look like that of a man who is in charge of his nation state. It looked like a man who answers to someone else and who was doing something which 'said' person wouldn't approve of.


I got a similiar impression as well.

The real person (or persons) behind the scenes may not even be Korean.
 

Super_Fire

Kingfisher
spokepoker said:
In before (((Koreans))) controlling Kim.

It's certainly a thought; that the US only "opens up" countries like these nowadays so that Israeli and Jewish monetary systems can sneak their way in.

See: What the neocons are trying to do to Russia, and did to Libya when Gaddafi threatened their monopoly by trying to create his own new gold-backed currency.
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
The DPRK (North Korea) is one of the last countries on earth without a (((Rothschild controlled))) central bank.


For how much longer now ?
 
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