Older fathers pass on more mutations to their sons

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Apollo21

Woodpecker
One of the nice things about a discussion like this is you can look things up for yourself

1. Research shows that as men age, damaged sperm gets replaced less often,
thus contributing to higher risk of infertility.

2. Among children with Down syndrome, when both parents are over the age of 35,
sperm is the related cause 50% of the time.

3. Older men have more damaged sperm than younger men. Men over 35 had more abnormalities
in sperm movement and more damaged sperm with more seriously damaged DNA than the younger men.

4. Maintaining a healthy lifestyle and staying away from toxic agents can help you maintain
optimal fertility.

http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/features/age-raises-infertility-risk-in-men-too
http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/news/20021017/old-sperm-die-hard
 

mastauser

 
Banned
Solution: wait to have children until Gattaca technology is fully developed. I think 20 years or less from today.

I can be 60 and father a version of me that is 4 inches taller, 30 more IQ points, and zero risk of any genetic defects. A worthy heir.

Antonio: We were just wondering if, if it is good to just leave a few things to, to chance?
Geneticist: We want to give your child the best possible start. Believe me, we have enough imperfection built in already. Your child doesn't need any more additional burdens. Keep in mind, this child is still you. Simply, the best, of you. You could conceive naturally a thousand times and never get such a result.
 

Nightwing

Robin
Absolutely bullshit, a feminist creation that reared its ugly head when I was still in university. Who are the older men impregnating? Older women, or younger women? These are the main contributing factors to these disorders, and they are ignored. FAILED STUDY

The older the woman, the higher chance of disorders, the younger the woman the higher chance of disorders.

Of course there's mutations in your sperm, just like any other cells in your body. Does a mutation spell imminent disasters to come for your future child? NO.

How about you examine YOUR health before that of the hypothetical?

Watch the cell phone near crotch, microwave near crotch, stop x-raying your crotch. Those heated seats? Bad for your crotch. Work out more, be on a healthy diet; you'll live to see your baby, and judge whether or not that cute face has 'disorders'.

This is just worrying for nothing.
 

whatday

Ostrich
Gold Member
samsamsam said:
Sort of a tangent but if you were to have mixed kids. Maybe you married your Thai gf. Doesn't that create a healthier child? I thought I read somewhere the stronger genes get passed through.

Many people carry some really harmful recessive genes. They live out healthy lives, but if they have children with someone else who also carries the recessive gene, the child may be born with those genes manifesting themselves in a harmful manner.

As a corollary, many of these harmful recessive genes cluster within ethnic groups, so that if you carry one of these, having a child with someone outside of your ethnic group would, statistically speaking, lower the chance of your partner also carrying the recessive gene.

So, if you have children with a woman from another part of the world, you're less likely to both carry the same recessive genes, and less likely to have a child with certain very serious genetic disorders.

Here's a section of a site that briefly gives examples of the ethnic clustering of certain recessive genes:

Recessive genetic disorders

Recessive genetic disorders (RGD) are caused when both parents supply a recessive gene to their offspring. The probability of such an event's occurring is 25 percent each time the parents conceive. About 1,000 confirmed RGDs exist. Some of the better known examples of the condition include cystic fibrosis, sickle-cell anemia, Tay-Sachs disease, galactosemia, phenylketonuria (PKU), adenosine deaminase deficiency, growth hormone deficiency, Werner's syndrome (juvenile muscular dystrophy), albinism (lack of skin pigment), and autism.

Some RGDs tend to affect people of one particular ethnic background at a higher rate than the rest of the population. Three such RGDs are cystic fibrosis, sickle-cell anemia, and Tay-Sachs disease. Cystic fibrosis is one of the most common autosomal recessive diseases in Caucasian children in the United States. About 5 percent of Caucasians carry this recessive gene. Cystic fibrosis is characterized by excessive secretion of an unusually thick mucus that clogs respiratory ducts and collects in lungs and other body areas. Cystic fibrosis patients usually die before the age of 20, although some individuals live to the age of 30.

Sickle-cell anemia occurs with an unusually high incidence among the world's black and Hispanic populations. However, some cases also occur in Italian, Greek, Arabian, Maltese, southern Asian, and Turkish people. About 1 in 12 blacks carry the gene for this disorder. Sickle-cell anemia is caused by mutations in the genes responsible for the production of hemoglobin. (Hemoglobin is the compound that carries oxygen in red blood cells to tissues and organs throughout the body.) Sickle-cell anemia patients have red blood cells that live only a fraction of the normal life span of 120 days. The abnormal blood cells have a sickled appearance, which led to the disease's name. Sickle-cell patients also die early, before the age of 30.

The Tay-Sachs gene is carried by 1 in 30 Ashkenazi Jews. Children born with Tay-Sachs disorder seem normal for the first 5 months of their lives. But afterwards, they begin to express symptoms of the disorder. Eventually, the condition leads to blindness and death before the age of four.

Here's a link if you want to explore further:

http://www.scienceclarified.com/Ga-He/Genetic-Disorders.html

I'm sure there's a host of other benefits to having children with folks that are not too closely related to you, and there may or may not be some drawbacks as well, but for sure there is the decreased risk of having a child with one of these ethnically clustered RGDs.
 

Samseau

Eagle
Orthodox
Gold Member
I found this joke of a "study":

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7412/full/nature11396.html

Mutations generate sequence diversity and provide a substrate for selection. The rate of de novo mutations is therefore of major importance to evolution. Here we conduct a study of genome-wide mutation rates by sequencing the entire genomes of 78 Icelandic parent–offspring trios at high coverage. We show that in our samples, with an average father’s age of 29.7, the average de novo mutation rate is 1.20 × 10−8 per nucleotide per generation. Most notably, the diversity in mutation rate of single nucleotide polymorphisms is dominated by the age of the father at conception of the child. The effect is an increase of about two mutations per year. An exponential model estimates paternal mutations doubling every 16.5 years. After accounting for random Poisson variation, father’s age is estimated to explain nearly all of the remaining variation in the de novo mutation counts. These observations shed light on the importance of the father’s age on the risk of diseases such as schizophrenia and autism.

This is a contrarian study that goes against MOUNTAINS of evidence which shows the mothers age to be the #1 factor in the health of the child and there is no mention of the age of the mothers? And it bases it's conclusions off a measly 78 trios?

:laugh:

How anyone can make a conclusion based on such a small sample is beyond me, but the study then takes their "findings" (from 78 couples) and extrapolates it to 752,343 father-child pairs since 1650. The inherent absurdity of doing something like this boggles my mind, but wait - there's more!

According to this study, if older fathers keep having more children over time then the mutations will increase and build upon each other, yet according to Figure 4 in their own study the amount of de nova mutations went down dramatically between 1900-1979 despite the prior 300 years having the average age of fathers being over 35. There appears to be little evidence of these mutations doing anything negative at all.

The definition of a de novo mutation:

An alteration in a gene that is present for the first time in one family member as a result of a mutation in a germ cell (egg or sperm) of one of the parents or in the fertilized egg itself

So, in summary:

- De novo mutations are not inherently bad or good.
- We have no idea what the role of the mother is since the study does not show how they separated the father's role from the mother's role.
- The sample size was pathetically small.

Apparently you need to pay $3.99 to "rent" the article and see, or $32 to "buy". I hate Academia, it's such a scam. Charging money so people can see your results is absolutely retarded. This means that if we don't pay we're expected to take this shit at face value based on the authority of this "peer-reviewed journal." God knows if knowledge was made available to the public I wonder how many people would take them seriously?

It is telling is that this study has gotten 700K page views, which just goes to show people will believe what they want to believe without doing any checking of the facts because people are too cheap to pay $3.99 or $32 for the article thus giving Nature a lazy-man's monopoly on information.

This is feminist pop-science, and probably deserves to be exposed via RoK. How did such a weak study make it into Nature, supposed a prestigious academic journal?

And then this weak "science" is used to generate the following headlines:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/24/news/la-heb-older-dads-more-mutations-evolution-20120824

Older dads pass down more mutations: the implications

A study this week reported that older men pass on more new mutations to their offspring than do younger men, a fact that could help explain higher rates of disorders such as autism, schizophrenia and others in kids born of older fathers.

LA Times just talking out of their ass, but I actually got a real link to a full study from this article:

http://www.nature.com/articles/ng.2...gn5vc=&tracking_referrer=articles.latimes.com

In this article they claim to know that mutations are not caused by the mother, yet they do not explain how they arrived at the conclusion. They say, "see supplementary tables, which are included in the online version of the paper," which means you need to pay.

Whole system is fucked, again, but there isn't any reason to believe they used accurate or sound methods after withholding such important information. My bullshit meter is off the charts.

Also interesting about the above study is that they try to infer, based on the rate of mutations, how fast humans evolved from the apes; I believe what they found is that the white race based on higher numbers of mutations evolved from apes faster than blacks and other types of apes in Table 2. But again, because they do not list how they calculate mutations, I wouldn't take this with more than a grain of salt.

So, to TL; DR:

1. Mutations: probably good if anything since mutations are the main drivers of evolution. Some mutations will be bad; these children die. Some mutations are good; these children then go out to reproduce successfully while young which according to the above papers means younger fathers = less mutations, so if fathers reproduce while young even if their fathers were old, it means they got a helpful mutation that allowed to them reproduce successfully earlier than normal.

2. If these studies are true, older fathers more likely to create unique characteristics in their sons and daughters (more likely in their sons since they inherit the Y chromosome). Again, it's a gamble but according to evolutionary theory mutations are one of THE most important drivers of evolution.

Therefore, older fathers are a GOOD thing if what these papers say is true. The Bible wins again.

3. Modern Academic science journals are a racket and charging money just to look at a single paper is reprehensible and immoral.
 

Bad Hussar

Pelican
^^^Samseau

Yes, if there were no mutations no advanced lifeforms would exist. We'd have got about as far as Amoeba's, if that. For the reasons you state. No variation = nothing for natural selection to work with. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Not only with respect to biological development and evolution, but human culture as well. This is also the reason that any attempts to compress cultural and material "outcomes" through government edict are comical and doomed to failure. Nature not only abhors a vacuum, it also abhors compression (of outcomes). Because universal Darwinism demands variation, so that it can do it's thing.

This is also a good lens to view one's own personal misfortune through. As tough as it seems it cannot be otherwise. Everyone must have their share of misfortune, because if nature "allowed" individuals to choose their own best outcomes all outcomes would be compressed into a tiny zone. Again, leading to stagnation on account of nature not having anything to work with.
 
Samseau said:
In this article they claim to know that mutations are not caused by the mother, yet they do not explain how they arrived at the conclusion. They say, "see supplementary tables, which are included in the online version of the paper," which means you need to pay.

That's exactly the weak point.

What we do know is that age of mothers does have a tremendous influence on the health and birth of a child. We know it from massive studies on animals in the 1970s.

One of the leading researchers back then was Dr. Joel Wallach who later studied human medicine and became an orthomolecular doctor. Back then he was young brilliant vet who conducted the largest study on animals ever undertaken in order to assess how much nutrition and nutrients influences general health, birth defects etc.

773ed5246ef930db6759c6b6ba6a14ca.jpg

(They actually provide cows with higher supplement doses per pound than humans. But a down syndrome cow would cost them money, for humans no such concerns are apparent. More children like that being born decrease the population which is in line with top-down plans.)

They found without a doubt that supplementation of high dosage of nutrients during the pregnancy decreases the likelihood of birth defects by a whopping 98%. But the problem is that supplementation for the female has to begin several months before conception to improve the quality of the egg and has to go all through the entire pregnancy period. For humans that would mean pure living and high dosage supplements 2 months before conception. Currently modern medicine starts with ridiculous numbers of supplements about 2-3 months after conception.

In contrast - for the fathers they found that since sperm regenerates itself constantly men should have a more healthy lifestyle and some supplements just one month prior to attempting impregnation. So essentially if the guy laid off binge-drinking, did some daily juicing and took some minor supplements for ONE MONTH, then he would be able to produce grade A jizz.

The woman however is a completely different story. We know for example that certain drugs and alcohol permeate all the cells in the body. For a man that is of little importance, since we recreate our boys. For the woman that is highly problematic, since she has eggs that are there already. If a woman does a lot of drinking and taking drugs before pregnancy, then there is a higher likelihood that all eggs are already slightly damaged. Older mothers essentially damage their eggs if they live a party lifestyle for 20 years before getting pregnant the first time.

Also a woman has to create life keeping that baby fed and supplied with a massive amount of nutrients.

So TL;DR:

Woman: Massive investment of lifestyle, nutrient dense food, for an entirety of 11 months - 2 months before conception and 9 months pregnancy, all kinds of things can impact the process, also fertility of women drops massively past 30

Man: Lay off booze and toxins & take some supplements for 1 months before conception, fertility of men drops maybe past 50, currently sperm donors are being accepted to age 45 (!)

Compare those 2 necessary steps that both genders have to take to create top-notch genetic material and now tell me who is the most likely to fuck up. Nature has designed women to get pregnant when they are young and their bodies can supply the child with the best environment.
 

Quintus Curtius

Crow
Gold Member
My thought is this: tough shit.

She's going to have to live with the possibility of my genes being defective, or whatever.

Kid's going to have to live with it, too. Suck it up, dorks.

Any price paid on the genetics side of the equation is more than compensated for by the fact that an older man is more stable, financially capable, and seasoned than a 19 year old prong warrior.

Price you pay. Deal with it.
 
I just recently came upon a brutal statistic put forward at the National Down Syndrome Society:

http://www.ndss.org/Down-Syndrome/What-Is-Down-Syndrome/

CG4ogQeXEAAbtiM.jpg


While those mothers have older fathers as we have assessed before - sperm donors are accepted to age 45, while most families who are willing to buy eggs won't be doing so with a donating woman who sets them aside at the maximum allowed age - 35. Usually post 30 women freeze their own eggs, but don't buy them from 33 year olds.

Seriously that statistic is truly mind-boggling. Of course in addition to DS you have plenty of other birth defects in addition to sub-optimal levels of development that is not quickly apparent - lower IQ, weaker immune system, shorter height etc.

Of course you can counter some effects and still have healthy strong babies, but the odds are certainly not in the favor of older mothers. I wonder how many would decide to be a happy-go-lucky carousel riding career woman after seeing stats like that?
 

Samseau

Eagle
Orthodox
Gold Member
And of course, feminists will never admit the differences between a mutation (which can be good or bad) and down syndrome, which is always bad.
 

Bad Hussar

Pelican
Zelcorpion said:
I just recently came upon a brutal statistic put forward at the National Down Syndrome Society:

http://www.ndss.org/Down-Syndrome/What-Is-Down-Syndrome/

CG4ogQeXEAAbtiM.jpg


While those mothers have older fathers as we have assessed before - sperm donors are accepted to age 45, while most families who are willing to buy eggs won't be doing so with a donating woman who sets them aside at the maximum allowed age - 35. Usually post 30 women freeze their own eggs, but don't buy them from 33 year olds.

Seriously that statistic is truly mind-boggling. Of course in addition to DS you have plenty of other birth defects in addition to sub-optimal levels of development that is not quickly apparent - lower IQ, weaker immune system, shorter height etc.

Of course you can counter some effects and still have healthy strong babies, but the odds are certainly not in the favor of older mothers. I wonder how many would decide to be a happy-go-lucky carousel riding career woman after seeing stats like that?

This is why women with money should freeze their eggs when young. I don't think the harvesting process is all that dangerous. Of course it would be best for them to have their children when in their 20's, but modern life is what it is.

But why is it that couples, as far as I can tell both men and women, think that the life sequence must be:

20's: party and career
30's: marriage (maybe), birth of children, career
40's: divorce

Why can't couples who are married party, or rather have a good time in general?
Why if they have children do they feel they have to live in a overpriced McMansion and never do anything exciting again (or so it seems)?

For young men and women who intend to marry and have a family they should really do these much earlier, but still try to do the things that they would have done anyway. Travel, for example, but there are all sorts of desires.
 

SteezeySteve

Woodpecker
Damn that statistic makes me feel lucky. Mom popped me out at 40,smoked cigarettes heavy, and I was premature by some months.

No serious health issues to complain about today.

Good find though scorpion. You figure age will have some effect,but I never would have guessed it was that dramatic.
 
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