Older Men, Younger Women, Requirements for Marriage, Etc.

[EntWife]

I've been reading through some of the old threads in the Women subforum. It's really reinforced to me that I wouldn't recommend for my daughter to marry a significantly older man. Five years older is fine, maybe even ten years, depending on what he did in that time and how the extra years affected him. Beyond that, he's probably too damaged and bitter against women. The older guys who aren't damaged and bitter are usually over thinking things to the point where they sabotage themselves. A man like that will have trouble effectively leading his family, plus it would be maddening having to deal with him.

An example of over thinking would be this comment where the commenter claimed that a man has to make a six figure USD income to be able to support a family. That's ludicrous. https://www.rooshvforum.com/threads/age-gap.40882/page-3#post-1570766 There are also men who claim that they can't get a girlfriend / get married because they're not at least 6' tall. They're disqualifying themselves with something that's obviously not true (how many married men are 6' or more??), and I wonder why? There's obviously some underlying issue with the guy, and it's not his height.

I've made these same observations in real life, and my reading of these old threads hasn't changed that perception.

My advice to my daughter in a few years when she's old enough to marry will be to marry young to a young man not jaded by experience with damaged women. If she keeps herself pure, then she shouldn't have to deal with his mental and emotional baggage from poor life choices, or be stuck with a wishy-washy, indecisive, fearful man who finally made the leap to get married because he was eventually even more afraid of dying alone and childless than he was of being cucked, or being divorce-raped, or ending up in a sexless marriage, or whatever. Yes, there are risks to marriage for both sexes, although the current legal climate causes more risk for men. But if he's that insecure and fearful, when tough times come, he very well might not be capable of handling it.

 

[Yeagerist]

I'm honestly impressed by your gall to post something like this in a forum full of right-wing men (many of them middle aged ones at that, too) who are fed up with the nonsense of secular liberal women.

I think this is the right place for me to vent out my pet peeves with this demographic as well. I've seen far too many white guys on the Internet who call white women "race traitors" or "coal burners" for dating non-white men (mostly black)—and then having no shame in talking about their fetish for Asian women or Latinas, or resorting to moving to the Philippines or some other destitute Third World place to find their fantasy trad wife. Apparently race-mixing isn't a problem for them, if they're the ones doing it with non-white women.

As for age gap, I've seen at least a couple of guys here who act as if they're entitled to a 20-something young lady, for the mere reason that the age gap will make them automatically more attractive to fresh college graduates. No matter how that makes them come across as creepy. Leonardo DiCaprio and Johnny Depp can pull it off because of their undisputed sex appeal, on top of the wealth and status they already possessed. To flip to the other side, just because young guys in their 20s would still find Laura Linney or Jennifer Connelly attractive despite the latter's age, it doesn't mean that they'll be willing to date any woman in her 40s or 50s on the basis of age alone.

I find the whole "based trad wife" fantasy cringey. A lot of trad LARPers on Facebook, YouTube and 4chan dream of moving to some isolated wilderness away from the city, settling down with a young woman (preferably not college educated) who will bear them 8 children and expect to obey their every orders, while being somehow thoroughly educated on theology and philosophy. I came to the conclusion that many of these people don't intend to marry and have children for its own sake, but rather to subconsciously enact their little right-wing social experiment.

 

[Blade Runner]

EntWife's been doing this for a long while now. She doesn't understand that if women (and yes it has to be en masse, majority) don't prioritize marriage in their (early) 20s, then bad things happen. Period. In one way or another, this forum has always been about finding a way to make the best out of bad situation. In a sense, that of course was what PUA was, regardless of how dumb it is - and that's what the God pill and turning to God and the sacraments is. The question hasn't been really about age, per se, but it (age) has become something that we all have to deal with because of the society's encouragement of women, and them following it, to forego marriage at ages when it's actually somewhat worth it for a man to marry. Again, blame men if you like, but the proof is in the pudding. What do you want for our daughter? A quality man who is wise and will take care of her, I would think. Are younger men on average going to fit this, or do you have a finished product (finish line) that has already demonstrated it? Looking at things now, and knowing history, the answer is obvious. Of course, community and connection, or women listening to others or their parents, is at an all time low, so it's not like these connections really take place anyway. I digress.

Apparently race-mixing isn't a problem for them, if they're the ones doing it with non-white women.

Again, they're just reacting to the realities on the ground, as women are the gatekeepers and yes, are thus the "traitors" if you look at it that way. Of course, groups aren't the same, and whites have the least common characteristics in the world as a matter of fact, so of course this feeling is going to be stronger in them (though it's in everyone).

Leonardo DiCaprio and Johnny Depp can pull it off because of their undisputed sex appeal

That's funny, the prototype of old drunk/fat dudes who have money - yet those guys get a pass, lol. When you pull away the curtain, you realize (that the whims of) women and society are arbitary and capricious.

Again, there are far more men (though they may be a small percentage) that have put in the work, and the juice ain't worth the squeeze. With a woman, she either has it or she doesn't, and there's a further problem - if you wait to even 26 a lot can't fool the guy anymore since the window has closed. Women control sex and reproduction, men control relationships and marriage - always has been the case, always will. If you want good, valuable men, bring your value when it's high, not when it has already declined. And after you acted like a guy 2-3 points higher in SMV was ever going to stick around in your fun days of your 20s. Pssh

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

[...] bring your value when it's high, not when it has already declined. And after you acted like a guy 2-3 points higher in SMV was ever going to stick around in your fun days of your 20s. Pssh

I just want to know why so many men feel the need to shout this at the women who never had a "fun days of their 20s" and are specifically raising their children to understand that such frittering away of their lives chasing sense gratification and fun is retarded.

When women who buckled down and got married in their teens and early twenties start talking about future marriage prospects for their children to consider when they are likewise young and fresh...

These tropes about wasting best years on carousel don't apply. Why do they have to be hauled out to antagonize the women who have been trying to live godly lives and raise their children to do the same, since before most of the men on this forum ever got it into their heads that secular pleasure chasing is a bad deal?

We didn't do that. We're not raising our daughters (or sons) to do that. Go talk down to someone who actually did?

 

[Blade Runner]

Why are you posting on the forum, then? You are doing it right. I'm happy for you.

The forum isn't about exceptions, it's about what has happened, what is happening, and what seems to be continuing to happen, at large.

That's all. If a guy already found an exception, the odds are, he wouldn't be here or posting here. Or at least that much.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

The forum is ABOUT Christianity.

@EntWife has brought forth some very valid points about the relative unsuitability of MANY older men for Christian marriage.

She's not wrong to want what she wants for her daughter.

I've been through the meat grinder in spite of trying my best to do the right thing when I was young, and the older man I have now is just about perfect for me.

He would be absolutely WRONG for some fresh, innocent, naive religious girl, for a vast host of reasons. As would MOST of the men who have lived anything resembling the kind of life he lived.

The statistical realities of the degenerate secular world are no basis upon which to teach our children what to expect or how to seek a mate.

I have nothing against age gaps, but I have everything against the notion that Christians OUGHT TO adjust anything about themselves to go with the flow dictated by the failures of a culture that has given itself over to degeneracy and sin. Taking a black-pill tone with a woman who wants a much better future for her daughter than what worldly whims and averages suggest to be likely, seems like the approach of someone who simply wants to share their malcontent with others.

 

[Thomas More]

It is true that a virtuous mother who has a virtuous daughter coming of age will want the daughter to marry a virtuous young man only a few years older than her. A man who is ready to provide for the family and lead it in Christian living. A man who is not emotionally broken by his life experiences, with a load of resentment and bitterness to poison the relationship.

I guess I agree with Entwife that older men who have already suffered failed relationships and lived a sinful lifestyle may wish they could have a pure young wife, but a mother would not want them for their daughters.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

no shame in talking about their fetish for Asian women or Latinas, or resorting to moving to the Philippines or some other destitute Third World place to find their fantasy trad wife. Apparently race-mixing isn't a problem for them, if they're the ones doing it with non-white women.

Good comment all around and you've said it better than I could (my brain is currently goo).

I don't get people who are like "I want a local community blah blah blah" and then uproot themselves or shop globally. I don't have a moral issue with it (and God bless anyone who is trying, again this isn't throwing shade on people who are married), I just think marriages already have enough weird issues. Women have a tendency to get homesick or want to be near their families. Plus it's nice to have grandparents and extended fam in your kid's life.

Leonardo DiCaprio and Johnny Depp can pull it off because of their undisputed sex appeal

Both those guys are ugly though, I liked Gael Garcia Bernal when I was younger and I think he may be an actual midget.

 

[ChristFollower1111]

I agree for the most part- I think it's ideal for people to get married young to someone who is relatively the same age as them.

There are some threads where guys get upset about how a large age gap is automatically looked down upon in our culture, no questions asked, and I guess I can see why they are upset about that. The negativity about age gaps probably is somewhat driven by the stereotype of the bitter older women who bring nothing to the table but want to lock down a high quality guy their own age. However, like all things- it definitely depends on the circumstances for any given situation.

I know I might get blasted for this but I often wonder why some guys in their late 30s are so interested in late teens/early 20s women. Obviously I can understand the physical attractiveness aspect, but are they genuinely not bothered by the gap in understanding and life experience? I'm in my early 30s and I'm noticing that early 20-somethings are starting to seem like kids to me and my husband agrees. Maybe he's lying (doubtful) , but I also wouldn't be that upset if he just said "yeah 20 year olds are hotter" because I already know that's the case and that I don't look the way I did 10 years ago, but he kind of says the same thing I do- that if he suddenly found himself single, he wouldn't really be looking at 20 year olds because they are so far behind in maturity and life experience. I'd say that any guy who is in his 30s has a reason for delaying marriage so long and hopefully it's a good one if he wants the youngest of women. If not, then it is right for him to find someone with more similar background and experience, whether he likes it or not, but usually when God brings people together, they find that they don't care about any lists or qualifications that they thought they had before.

I'm sure another aspect of this problem is that many women let themselves go at older ages. A woman who remains in shape, takes care of her face and hair, and dresses well should be satisfying for a man of relatively the same age and if not, I'd wonder what was wrong with the man that that wasn't enough for him.

 

[KomnenAl]

Only the upside down world could produce the notion that young women should marry men of the same age as them or at the most 5 years older, while the NORM for most of human history was the opposite.

How can one expect a child to be led by a manchild? Could this be a secret wish of the mother of said child to retain control over the lives of their daughters and their purported husbands?

 

[Thomas More]

Only the upside down world could produce the laughable notion that young women should marry men of the same age as them or at the most 5 years older, while the NORM for most of human history was the opposite.

How can one expect a child to be led by a manchild? Could this be a secret wish of the mother of said child to retain control over the lives of their daughters and their purported husbands?

I don't think a large age difference was the norm for most of human history. It has always been common, but I think husband 2-5 years older than the wife has been common as well.

I know that many 25 year old men in western society are man-children now, but it was normal for 25 year old men to be responsible adults for most of human history. I was married with a child, and I had a college degree and a supervisory job when I was 25. I was no man-child. This is normal. 25 year old man-children are the aberration.

I know mature 25 year old men now, at my job, in my church, and in my extended family.

If anything, I think a mother considering good husband material for her daughter would want to disqualify any older man if she knew he had still been a man-child when he was 25. Only a man who is mature and responsible by 25 should be considered high quality.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I think you're making certain negative assumptions about men in your post. If a man who is in his thirties or forties is not married, there could be several reasons, none of which are the negative ones you posted. It's possible he was discerning a vocation, or was in a long term relationship that didn't work out. The pool of religious women is low, so what is a man to do? Women are super picky these days and kind, reserved, religious men are ridiculed more than they are desired. This may also be God's way of creating warrior monks to serve him, unrestrained by familial obligations.

 

[budoslavic]

Re: "...he's probably too damaged or bitter against women".

What are you basing this on? How did you come to that conclusion? That is a common feminist talking point line.

Take a step back and ask yourself why an "older man" feel that way and what were the reasons for acting that way. Look at the below "Power and Control" wheel. For years, that chart has been used by "empowered" women to destroy an innocent man's life.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

Take a step back and ask yourself why an "older man" feel that way and what were the reasons for acting that way. Look at the below "Power and Control" wheel. For years, that chart has been used by "empowered" women to destroy an innocent man's life.

I understand all of this very well. Those men are not wrong to feel the way they feel.

But if a man IS DAMAGED AND BITTER AGAINST WOMEN, having valid reasons to be that way doesn't NEGATE his damage and his bitterness in any way that would make him a good prospect for marriage to a young woman who does not deserve to be met by such jadedness.

Perhaps the statement that an older man "is probably too damaged or bitter" isn't fair -- but for the ones who ARE, whatever percentage they be of the whole, this quality makes those particular men unsuitable.

If I had a young virgin daughter, I would caution her against ever so much as giving the time of day to any man who thinks she should have to compensate or atone in any way for the actions of the Jezebels he allowed to damage him in his prior pursuit of material gratification. No matter how otherwise qualified he may seem, and no matter his relative age.

Even the older men who do NOT do this, will very probably have some issues that a young, fresh, naïve, innocent woman would have a much harder time tolerating than a woman like me - "sadder but wiser."

Personally, I have an extreme aversion to the notion of women being with younger men. Even if it's by one single day. They can get away with being born on the same actual day, because that's kind of cute, but if he's even one day younger, I'm like "NOOOOOPE, he's a BABY, DON'T DO IT!!!"

Buuuuuut... ultimately I really wish people would stop making such a big deal about the relative ages of fully mature adults. On either side. In any direction.

If you're worried that the man will be damaged, bitter, jaded, etc. because he is older... what you're worried about is men who are damaged, bitter, and jaded.

Young men can be that way too. And not all older men are like that.

(And if I'm so worried that a man will be immature, childish, etc. because he is younger... what I am really worried about is men who are immature, childish, etc. -- not his age. OLDER men can be like that, too!)

Kind of like how not every woman who ends up without a husband in her late twenties/early thirties got there by riding the carousel or divorce-raping someone.

Among sexually mature adults who are seeking mates, relative age should be less about "trips around the sun" and more about actual physical condition, qualifications for the job of husband or wife, etc.

That's kind of my bottom line on using age as a hard filter: it's better to filter for the things you're worried might come along with age OR lack thereof -- because people can "age" in unsavory ways (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.) a whole lot faster than they accumulate years, and they can also stay retarded for a lot longer than you'd expect in ways that aren't obvious, AND some people have aged gracefully and pleasantly and compassionately instead of becoming jaded and awful (with these unfortunately being the rarest of cases, lol - but they DO exist).

Editing to add: I think modern culture artificially enforces age-peer pairings at an almost MANDATED rate, where a more organic economy would always result in more of a typical bell-curve, with most young adults pairing off fairly close in age, but age-disparity also being entirely expected and accepted as part of the normal course of things for all sorts of reasons, both practical and fanciful.

 

[EntWife]

Re: "...he's probably too damaged or bitter against women".

What are you basing this on? How did you come to that conclusion? That is a common feminist talking point line.

Take a step back and ask yourself why an "older man" feel that way and what were the reasons for acting that way. Look at the below "Power and Control" wheel. For years, that chart has been used by "empowered" women to destroy an innocent man's life.

I'm basing this on what I've seen from unmarried and divorced men as they get older, both in real life and on the internet. I can understand in some cases why they would feel that way. When it comes to my daughter though, I don't really care why an older man might be damaged and bitter. He's not right for her. Just like I might feel sorry for a girl who was molested or raped, but I would advise my son not to marry her and her probably lifelong issues.

An older man isn't entitled to a young, pure girl who was sheltered by her Christian parents, no matter how high value the older man thinks he is.

 

[Thomas More]

I understand all of this very well. Those men are not wrong to feel the way they feel.

But if a man IS DAMAGED AND BITTER AGAINST WOMEN, having valid reasons to be that way doesn't NEGATE his damage and his bitterness in any way that would make him a good prospect for marriage to a young woman who does not deserve to be met by such jadedness.

Perhaps the statement that an older man "is probably too damaged or bitter" isn't fair -- but for the ones who ARE, whatever percentage they be of the whole, this quality makes those particular men unsuitable.

If I had a young virgin daughter, I would caution her against ever so much as giving the time of day to any man who thinks she should have to compensate or atone in any way for the actions of the Jezebels he allowed to damage him in his prior pursuit of material gratification. No matter how otherwise qualified he may seem, and no matter his relative age.

Even the older men who do NOT do this, will very probably have some issues that a young, fresh, naïve, innocent woman would have a much harder time tolerating than a woman like me - "sadder but wiser."

Personally, I have an extreme aversion to the notion of women being with younger men. Even if it's by one single day. They can get away with being born on the same actual day, because that's kind of cute, but if he's even one day younger, I'm like "NOOOOOPE, he's a BABY, DON'T DO IT!!!"

Buuuuuut... ultimately I really wish people would stop making such a big deal about the relative ages of fully mature adults. On either side. In any direction.

If you're worried that the man will be damaged, bitter, jaded, etc. because he is older... what you're worried about is men who are damaged, bitter, and jaded.

Young men can be that way too. And not all older men are like that.

(And if I'm so worried that a man will be immature, childish, etc. because he is younger... what I am really worried about is men who are immature, childish, etc. -- not his age. OLDER men can be like that, too!)

Kind of like how not every woman who ends up without a husband in her late twenties/early thirties got there by riding the carousel or divorce-raping someone.

Among sexually mature adults who are seeking mates, relative age should be less about "trips around the sun" and more about actual physical condition, qualifications for the job of husband or wife, etc.

That's kind of my bottom line on using age as a hard filter: it's better to filter for the things you're worried might come along with age OR lack thereof -- because people can "age" in unsavory ways (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.) a whole lot faster than they accumulate years, and they can also stay retarded for a lot longer than you'd expect in ways that aren't obvious, AND some people have aged gracefully and pleasantly and compassionately instead of becoming jaded and awful (with these unfortunately being the rarest of cases, lol - but they DO exist).

Well said.

Nobody likes being characterized by an accurate stereotype for which they believe themselves to be the exception. Older men hoping to marry a pure young girl don't like to think they are automatically disqualified.

However, I have to say I think this is a fair prejudice. It's up to an older man to prove he is the exception in a situation like this. All to often, I think it is fair.

I am 58, so I am too old to be seeking a pure young 20 year old in any case. However, I must say that I am bitter, and I worry that if I remarry my bitterness would be a risk to the success of the marriage. My goal is to overcome this bitterness before I seek marriage again. Judging by the things other men write on RVF, I think I am far from being alone in this.

 

[Jaybosan]

In a former job I became privy to certain demographic figures. I can tell you that most marriages fall within a 10-year age gap. I can speculate lots of reasons why that is, but that seems to be how things seem to shake out naturally. You will rarely find a man more than 10 years older than his wife.

I think it's fair to be discerning about any potential spouse, as I believe Baldwin of Canterbury stated: discernment is the mother of all virtues.
So for a man to seeking out a spouse outside of the 10-year gap is by nature not normal. The woman will have to face issues like the fact that she may be outliving him by a fair margin, and won't be able to rely on him for support in old age. Or on a smaller level, cultural touchstones they won't have in common e.g. he grew up going to Nickelback concerts and she likes Post Malone's music. The past is a foreign country.

That said, the man is still capable of having children with her. Which may be a motivating factor for him. Whereas a women in his age-range may not be able to have children anymore. And while he may have been low-status or foolish as a younger man, he may have acquired a higher status and wisdom with age.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

Older men hoping to marry a pure young girl don't like to think they are automatically disqualified.

I could have automatically disqualified my husband for a lot of reasons (even though I've got nothing against older men, personally), if I had listened too intently to anything other than what I believe to be the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Automatic disqualification on the basis of any "statistical likelihood" - in lieu of careful case-by-case discernment - seems like a good way to make one's self blind to the exceptional. And exceptions to the rule are exactly what most of us were/are looking for in a spouse, unless we come from a place where "the rule" is righteousness.

Where the rule is wickedness, and we find ourselves to be the exceptions, it does not serve us to limit our search for companionship to the pool that appears to represent the stereotypes we associate with "the rule" of righteousness.

"No men more than x-years older because if he were righteous and suitable for marriage he would not be unmarried at his age, he must be too damaged."

"No women older than x-years younger because if she were righteous and suitable for marriage she would not be unmarried at her age, she must be too damaged."

No matter how statistically likely the "because" is to be true, if you're just taking a broad sampling of people, I think it would behoove most people to come to terms with the fact that the person God would be most pleased to see them with, the person who would be most suitable for them, might look nothing like what they would build for themselves from a list of checkboxes. Dismissing the people you actually personally come in contact with in your daily life, on the basis of statistical likelihoods, seems unwise.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

So for a man to seeking out a spouse outside of the 10-year gap is by nature not normal. The woman will have to face issues like the fact that she may be outliving him by a fair margin, and won't be able to rely on him for support in old age. Or on a smaller level, cultural touchstones they won't have in common e.g. he grew up going to Nickelback concerts and she likes Post Malone's music. The past is a foreign country.

I know several elderly women in that situation (married 15+ years older, husbands died awhile ago, they still have some ways to go).

People older than a few years when you're young feel like your parents, and they just seem kind of weird, too. (Now that I'm in my 30s I get it. We're just tired and dealing with existential pain and mortgages.)

Men who go for *significantly* younger women usually don't realize how much time has passed. And the women are often gold-diggers or want something other than a husband.

 

[EntWife]

EntWife's been doing this for a long while now. She doesn't understand that if women (and yes it has to be en masse, majority) don't prioritize marriage in their (early) 20s, then bad things happen. Period. In one way or another, this forum has always been about finding a way to make the best out of bad situation. In a sense, that of course was what PUA was, regardless of how dumb it is - and that's what the God pill and turning to God and the sacraments is. The question hasn't been really about age, per se, but it (age) has become something that we all have to deal with because of the society's encouragement of women, and them following it, to forego marriage at ages when it's actually somewhat worth it for a man to marry. Again, blame men if you like, but the proof is in the pudding. What do you want for our daughter? A quality man who is wise and will take care of her, I would think. Are younger men on average going to fit this, or do you have a finished product (finish line) that has already demonstrated it?

In my original post, I said that I will advise my daughter to marry young. If she doesn't marry young, then obviously she won't be able to get a young man anyway.

I find it interesting that you say that I don't understand that women should prioritize marriage when young, when prioritizing marriage young is literally what I did and what I'm advising for my daughter. Plus it's what I have advised multiple times on the forum. I'm not telling my daughter to wait until she's older and jaded herself. I'm telling her not to marry a man who is older and jaded, which I think is what you really have a problem with.

Also, being burned by life experience and being wise are two different things. A lot of older men seem to have learned all the wrong things that would make them unsuitable for marriage to a young, innocent, Christian lady.

Edit to add: As for women needing to prioritize marriage en masse, yes, both sexes should do this for the good of society. However, my daughter and I are not responsible for what other women do. I made the right choice myself, and my daughter needs to do the same. Men also need to make the right choices, which they are not doing en masse. The solution isn't to say that the majority have to do better or it won't help. Individual people have to make better, more moral, more Christian decisions. "En masse" starts a person at a time, then builds.