Older Men, Younger Women, Requirements for Marriage, Etc.

[Blade Runner]

I guess I agree with Entwife that older men who have already suffered failed relationships and lived a sinful lifestyle may wish they could have a pure young wife, but a mother would not want them for their daughters.

Why is this the conclusion? There are younger men that "have suffered failed relationships" by age 28-32 (prime) who she wouldn't think twice about for her "young daughter". She gave a generalization, so I spoke in general as to what is going on in this society.

Since this is a christian forum, read what St. John Chrysostom says about who should run society and the roles of the sexes. When you realize that we don't have anything even close to that, you'll realize why clown world isn't some strategy of men to have fun and get old. The ladies here keep claiming this, but the society promoted that women do that. And here we are.

 

[EntWife]

I just want to know why so many men feel the need to shout this at the women who never had a "fun days of their 20s" and are specifically raising their children to understand that such frittering away of their lives chasing sense gratification and fun is retarded.

When women who buckled down and got married in their teens and early twenties start talking about future marriage prospects for their children to consider when they are likewise young and fresh...

These tropes about wasting best years on carousel don't apply. Why do they have to be hauled out to antagonize the women who have been trying to live godly lives and raise their children to do the same, since before most of the men on this forum ever got it into their heads that secular pleasure chasing is a bad deal?

We didn't do that. We're not raising our daughters (or sons) to do that. Go talk down to someone who actually did?

Exactly! I was 20 when I married my husband, who was 24. I was also a virgin on my wedding night. Then I spent my early and mid-20's working full-time, putting my husband through school. I didn't wait for Treebeard to "get to the finish line"; I helped him get there. I wasn't the only young woman doing this either.

And it wasn't because I didn't have the opportunity to misbehave. There were men who wanted me to cheat with them. (Some of them were really persistent. There was even a man who almost tried to bully me into bed with him, and another who would furiously cuss at me because I wouldn't fall into bed with him.) There were men who wanted me to divorce my husband and marry them. There was actually a man who never met me in person, but just from my voice (which he thought was beautiful or sexy or something) and pleasant manner on the phone, he wanted me to divorce my husband and get with him. Can you imagine???

So it's interesting that some men want to blame societal problems on women. When I was young and making the right choices, I didn't usually hear, "That's wonderful, good job" from men. No, what I usually heard from men was how I should throw it all away so they could get what they wanted from me - sex, after which they would have tossed me aside, broken, damaged, and with a ruined marriage and life.

 

[Blade Runner]

I think you're making certain negative assumptions about men in your post. If a man who is in his thirties or forties is not married, there could be several reasons, none of which are the negative ones you posted. It's possible he was discerning a vocation, or was in a long term relationship that didn't work out. The pool of religious women is low, so what is a man to do? Women are super picky these days and kind, reserved, religious men are ridiculed more than they are desired. This may also be God's way of creating warrior monks to serve him, unrestrained by familial obligations.

This is why the OP is seen as trolling. She thinks that any man who desires youth (the last thing left it seems for modern men) is some old and slothful, debased, player. This post in many ways describes me - long path of professional training, orthodox, and in a modern culture where most women aren't in for the long haul with you. Notice I said most, not all. I had a couple of good options, but mostly I never met anyone I even found attractive, to be honest. When you couple that with not everyone is your same faith, or you can't decide between 5-15 options, you frankly aren't likely to find someone to make the kind of decision (a serious one) marriage is. As a result, as an older man who has accomplished a lot in his life already, the only real reason to get married and deal with all of its necessities is if you can have a family. That cannot be realistically done with women in their 30s already, for reasons of both math and biology.

 

[EntWife]

Only the upside down world could produce the notion that young women should marry men of the same age as them or at the most 5 years older, while the NORM for most of human history was the opposite.

How can one expect a child to be led by a manchild? Could this be a secret wish of the mother of said child to retain control over the lives of their daughters and their purported husbands?

I'm not advising my daughter to marry a manchild. There are still young men in their 20's who are responsible adults. They're not all children in adult bodies.

 

[Blade Runner]

Obviously I can understand the physical attractiveness aspect, but are they genuinely not bothered by the gap in understanding and life experience?

I doubt you understand, really, the attractiveness aspect, for biological reasons. In fact, I know you don't. Women in other countries, by the way, have far more life experiences by age 20, because life is hard and you need to be complementary, not spoiled or selfish. I agree, young women in the west, like most women in the west, are suboptimal (that's being nice) compared to what is raised abroad. It's just how it is, culture and wealth have had their toll and the genie ain't going back in until the financial hard times really come.

should be satisfying for a man of relatively the same age and if not, I'd wonder what was wrong with the man that that wasn't enough for him.

Proving you don't understand how important and discerning youth, and sexual attraction is, to men. What's satisying or OK for men is the trade of the short lived youth for loving the woman and the family as you both move ahead together. At this point in the society, you're getting the used up goods (or old goods) while another man got the best of it. Not a recipe for anything good, for either party.

 

[EntWife]

I understand all of this very well. Those men are not wrong to feel the way they feel.

But if a man IS DAMAGED AND BITTER AGAINST WOMEN, having valid reasons to be that way doesn't NEGATE his damage and his bitterness in any way that would make him a good prospect for marriage to a young woman who does not deserve to be met by such jadedness.

Perhaps the statement that an older man "is probably too damaged or bitter" isn't fair -- but for the ones who ARE, whatever percentage they be of the whole, this quality makes those particular men unsuitable.

If I had a young virgin daughter, I would caution her against ever so much as giving the time of day to any man who thinks she should have to compensate or atone in any way for the actions of the Jezebels he allowed to damage him in his prior pursuit of material gratification. No matter how otherwise qualified he may seem, and no matter his relative age.

Even the older men who do NOT do this, will very probably have some issues that a young, fresh, naïve, innocent woman would have a much harder time tolerating than a woman like me - "sadder but wiser."

Personally, I have an extreme aversion to the notion of women being with younger men. Even if it's by one single day. They can get away with being born on the same actual day, because that's kind of cute, but if he's even one day younger, I'm like "NOOOOOPE, he's a BABY, DON'T DO IT!!!"

Buuuuuut... ultimately I really wish people would stop making such a big deal about the relative ages of fully mature adults. On either side. In any direction.

If you're worried that the man will be damaged, bitter, jaded, etc. because he is older... what you're worried about is men who are damaged, bitter, and jaded.

Young men can be that way too. And not all older men are like that.

(And if I'm so worried that a man will be immature, childish, etc. because he is younger... what I am really worried about is men who are immature, childish, etc. -- not his age. OLDER men can be like that, too!)

Kind of like how not every woman who ends up without a husband in her late twenties/early thirties got there by riding the carousel or divorce-raping someone.

Among sexually mature adults who are seeking mates, relative age should be less about "trips around the sun" and more about actual physical condition, qualifications for the job of husband or wife, etc.

That's kind of my bottom line on using age as a hard filter: it's better to filter for the things you're worried might come along with age OR lack thereof -- because people can "age" in unsavory ways (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc.) a whole lot faster than they accumulate years, and they can also stay retarded for a lot longer than you'd expect in ways that aren't obvious, AND some people have aged gracefully and pleasantly and compassionately instead of becoming jaded and awful (with these unfortunately being the rarest of cases, lol - but they DO exist).

Editing to add: I think modern culture artificially enforces age-peer pairings at an almost MANDATED rate, where a more organic economy would always result in more of a typical bell-curve, with most young adults pairing off fairly close in age, but age-disparity also being entirely expected and accepted as part of the normal course of things for all sorts of reasons, both practical and fanciful.

Yes, I agree with this. There may be some exceptions among older men, but you'd have to screen hard. There are also younger men who are bitter and jaded already, and they should be rejected by a young, pure lady as well.

 

[Road2Damascus]

This is why the OP is seen as trolling. She thinks that any man who desires youth (the last thing left it seems for modern men) is some old and slothful, debased, player. This post in many ways describes me - long path of professional training, orthodox, and in a modern culture where most women aren't in for the long haul with you. Notice I said most, not all. I had a couple of good options, but mostly I never met anyone I even found attractive, to be honest. When you couple that with not everyone is your same faith, or you can't decide between 5-15 options, you frankly aren't likely to find someone to make the kind of decision (a serious one) marriage is. As a result, as an older man who has accomplished a lot in his life already, the only real reason to get married and deal with all of its necessities is if you can have a family. That cannot be realistically done with women in their 30s already, for reasons of both math and biology.

I observed some inconsistencies in her reasoning on these points. Another point to consider is that certain people are excellent at perception management. What I mean is a man can be 25, go to church weekly, and seem like a perfect husband. Instead, he's sinning in secret and has bedded more women than a 35 year old man. I've seen this case with women too. It's sad that humans are easily fooled by perception. Only God knows the heart for sure. However yes, I agree with your points, the statistical numbers of potential matches are low.

 

[Thomas More]

This is why the OP is seen as trolling. She thinks that any man who desires youth (the last thing left it seems for modern men) is some old and slothful, debased, player. This post in many ways describes me - long path of professional training, orthodox, and in a modern culture where most women aren't in for the long haul with you. Notice I said most, not all. I had a couple of good options, but mostly I never met anyone I even found attractive, to be honest. When you couple that with not everyone is your same faith, or you can't decide between 5-15 options, you frankly aren't likely to find someone to make the kind of decision (a serious one) marriage is. As a result, as an older man who has accomplished a lot in his life already, the only real reason to get married and deal with all of its necessities is if you can have a family. That cannot be realistically done with women in their 30s already, for reasons of both math and biology.

It seems clear to me that everybody agrees on exceptions to the general rule, and you clearly fit the exceptions. Are you against the general rule, even though you have gone to some considerable effort to be different? I can see how you would want your daughter to marry a man like you, but would you want her to marry the kind of man Entwife and a number of others have described?

It sounds like you are confusing your personal exception to the pattern with people that fit the pattern, and then trying to demand the entire pattern be ignored. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You're not one of the ones she's talking about.

 

[EntWife]

I observed some inconsistencies in her reasoning on these points. Another point to consider is that certain people are excellent at perception management. What I mean is a man can be 25, go to church weekly, and seem like a perfect husband. Instead, he's sinning in secret and has bedded more women than a 35 year old man. I've seen this case with women too. It's sad that humans are easily fooled by perception. Only God knows the heart for sure. However yes, I agree with your points, the statistical numbers of potential matches are low.

Do you honestly think that older men are less likely to be hypocrites or hiding unsavory aspects of themselves than younger men? There are people like this in all age groups. That's a different issue, and obviously should also be screened for.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Do you honestly think that older men are less likely to be hypocrites or hiding unsavory aspects of themselves than younger men? There are people like this in all age groups. That's a different issue, and obviously should also be screened for.

I don't believe anyone can know this.

Youth != purity. You seem to be making generalizations and have a bias against 'older men.' The term itself is relative. When it comes to relationships of any kind you really should look at individuals. I'm just pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in reasoning, I'm not here to argue. My goal in joining this forum is faith based for my salvation. You do you.

 

[EntWife]

I don't believe anyone can know this.

Youth != purity. You seem to be making generalizations and have a bias against 'older men.' The term itself is relative. When it comes to relationships of any kind you really should look at individuals. I'm just pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in reasoning, I'm not here to argue. My goal in joining this forum is faith based for my salvation. You do you.

I am not saying that all young people are pure. Obviously not. But my daughter is, and I will guide and advise her, to the best of my ability, for her own good.

You must not have children of your own if you can't understand this.

Edit to add: If you don't believe that anyone can know if younger men are more likely to be hypocritical fakers than older men are, then why did you bring it up to begin with? This is confusing and frankly odd behavior on your part.

 

[messaggera]

So it's interesting that some men want to blame societal problems on women

Most of the culture and social problems are a result of women's behaviour, and everytime this topic comes up (on the ladie's forum) men need to have an input or else this forum becomes an echo chamber.

@EntWife I agree with you on your initial post. You and a few others here on this forum are the exception when @Blade Runner speaks about women in general. And I agree with @Blade Runner observations too.

What I do not understand is why women, who are the exception, would be offended by @Blade Runner 's accurate observations about women in general. Both you and @Kitty Tantrum come across (from what you two share personally) as the exceptions and should not be offended:

We didn't do that. We're not raising our daughters (or sons) to do that. Go talk down to someone who actually did?

Why do they have to be hauled out to antagonize the women who have been trying to live godly lives and raise their children to do the same, since before most of the men on this forum ever got it into their heads that secular pleasure chasing is a bad deal?

Why does this topic keep coming up in the ladies forum?

At this point given how the world is descending - if I were to raise a young daughter I would also open the conversation to what a monastery life would offer.

 

[EntWife]

Most of the culture and social problems are a result of women's behaviour, and everytime this topic comes up (on the ladie's forum) men need to have an input or else this forum becomes an echo chamber.

@EntWife I agree with you on your initial post. You and a few others here on this forum are the exception when @Blade Runner speaks about women in general. And I agree with @Blade Runner observations too.

What I do not understand is why women, who are the exception, would be offended by @Blade Runner 's accurate observations about women in general. Both you and @Kitty Tantrum come across (from what you two share personally) as the exceptions and should not be offended:





Why does this topic keep coming up in the ladies forum?

At this point given how the world is descending - if I were to raise a young daughter I would also open the conversation to what a monastery life would offer.

It is the result of women's behavior, but also men's behavior. Even after I was married, there were men trying to get me in bed. Some of them actually put a lot of pressure on me. If I had been a weaker person, I might have been pressured into doing things that I didn't want to do.

Women didn't make them act like that. They wanted what they wanted. They didn't care what that would do to me and my husband and our marriage, or what marital infidelity and divorce do to society overall. They were only concerned about their desires of the moment, kinda like the women who are partying away their youth.

It's both sexes. The majority of men and the majority of women are making unwise and sinful choices, and in some cases, trying to pressure other people into doing the same.

 

[get2choppaaa]

I'm basing this on what I've seen from unmarried and divorced men as they get older, both in real life and on the internet. I can understand in some cases why they would feel that way. When it comes to my daughter though, I don't really care why an older man might be damaged and bitter. He's not right for her. Just like I might feel sorry for a girl who was molested or raped, but I would advise my son not to marry her and her probably lifelong issues.

An older man isn't entitled to a young, pure girl who was sheltered by her Christian parents, no matter how high value the older man thinks he is.

Nobody is entitled to anything.

If you're raising your daughter that way, and she takes heed then this is such a non issue that it's not even necessary to get into the minutia of why an older man would want to marry a younger woman. Are you worried that she's not going to follow your guidance on this?

It is the result of women's behavior, but also men's behavior. Even after I was married, there were men trying to get me in bed. Some of them actually put a lot of pressure on me. If I had been a weaker person, I might have been pressured into doing things that I didn't want to do.

Women didn't make them act like that. They wanted what they wanted. They didn't care what that would do to me and my husband and our marriage, or what marital infidelity and divorce do to society overall. They were only concerned about their desires of the moment, kinda like the women who are partying away their youth.

It's both sexes. The majority of men and the majority of women are making unwise and sinful choices, and in some cases, trying to pressure other people into doing the same.

What sort of situations are you putting yourself in where as a married woman there are men around you in a setting where they are able to make sexual advances?

Also, surely you're not implying that women do not do this also? While I am sure the majority of affairs are initiated by men, its not unheard of for women to do this also...just so ya know.....

 

[Feyoder]

Does this come from a place of resentment? Just wondering. I struggle with it a lot myself.

The ideal marriage is different for everyone--barring some obvious things (young maid with gramps. Diseases.). Age gap, throughout history, is normal.

 

[TheLearningWife]

I was still 20 when I met my husband, who is 10-15 years older (I don’t want to give exact age). I would say we are both exceptions to the rule, in that although I wasn’t raised traditionally, I am a first gen American and was always looking to get married young, and my husband is not a typical man. He was married previously, but the circumstances of the divorce were not really of his own doing and he was not bitter or jaded. There were some tough things we had to work through, but they’re a different flavor of the tests that all marriages undergo. I have many friends who also married in early 20s to men close in age, and I’m still happy with my choice. Truthfully, I don’t know if I could deal with a man’s growing pains, if that makes sense. My husband really is a jack-of-all-trades with many talents, accomplishments, and wisdom, and he’s really grounded me as I’ve gotten older. The things I’m bad at, he’s good at and vice versa. I did think about the age gap and being widowed early, but truthfully, who is to say God doesn’t take me first? If those are the cards God gives me, I will accept it and God willing, not remarry. For my own daughter, I pray that God’s will is done, and if He wills her to be married that it’s to the right man for her.

My favorite thing about my husband is that he never, ever freaks out about anything, always calm and optimistic, which is something he acquired through various trials over the years. I also love how masculine he is, and I have yet to meet a man around my age who can talk the talk/walk the walk (I’m a younger millennial). He’s also sooooo funny, he can literally tell a lady to shave her beard and they’ll love him for it (happened multiple times lol, medical field stories).

Truthfully, I was really picky intuitively (and I don’t mean about height/money, didn’t care) and knew to get the traits I wanted in a husband, I would have to have something to offer in return (my youth, but also my other gifts). Even though I wasn’t practicing Orthodox at the time, I still prayed all the time to find the right husband for me.

Just my 2¢, whatever it’s worth.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

At this point given how the world is descending - if I were to raise a young daughter I would also open the conversation to what a monastery life would offer.

Oof. I had a thoughtful post typed out, and my tablet ate it, and I don't know if I'll have time to write it out again, but I really wanted to say AMEN to this!

 

[EntWife]

Nobody is entitled to anything.

If you're raising your daughter that way, and she takes heed then this is such a non issue that it's not even necessary to get into the minutia of why an older man would want to marry a younger woman. Are you worried that she's not going to follow your guidance on this?


What sort of situations are you putting yourself in where as a married woman there are men around you in a setting where they are able to make sexual advances?

Also, surely you're not implying that women do not do this also? While I am sure the majority of affairs are initiated by men, its not unheard of for women to do this also...just so ya know.....

It would be tragic if my daughter followed my advice but all the young men listened to the older men telling them that it's not possible to marry young to a pure, Christian young woman. Thankfully, there do seem to still be young men who have more sense than that.

As for my personal experiences, a woman doesn't have to go to questionable places for men to pressure her for sex. Most of these men were co-workers or customers. I did not encourage them in any way; they just wanted what they wanted. The manosphere has always had a lot to say about how men have to put in effort to have sex, but all women have to do is be young, still breathing, and not morbidly obese. Well, I was young, still breathing, and thin.

Plus, this was before men were (justifiably) afraid of HR. Before 2010 wasn't really that long ago, but it was still a different world. Even in an office environment, men were willing to go after it and try to get sex with a married co-worker if they were attracted to her. Some of the men wouldn't give up either. The only way I could get them to stop was by going to a different job.

I've always wondered though - if that's how it was for me as a reasonably pretty young woman, what was it like for the girls who were actually beautiful? I guess it's no wonder beautiful women are a lot more likely to be rude and have bad attitudes.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

Just like I might feel sorry for a girl who was molested or raped, but I would advise my son not to marry her and her probably lifelong issues.

Being molested or raped isn't one's fault, just like having crap parents or being born into a bad situation.

Abused people often feel broken or unlovable, so while I think it's useful to know that you can't "fix" others, it's possible to get past problems.

 

[EntWife]

I was still 20 when I met my husband, who is 10-15 years older (I don’t want to give exact age). I would say we are both exceptions to the rule, in that although I wasn’t raised traditionally, I am a first gen American and was always looking to get married young, and my husband is not a typical man. He was married previously, but the circumstances of the divorce were not really of his own doing and he was not bitter or jaded. There were some tough things we had to work through, but they’re a different flavor of the tests that all marriages undergo. I have many friends who also married in early 20s to men close in age, and I’m still happy with my choice. Truthfully, I don’t know if I could deal with a man’s growing pains, if that makes sense. My husband really is a jack-of-all-trades with many talents, accomplishments, and wisdom, and he’s really grounded me as I’ve gotten older. The things I’m bad at, he’s good at and vice versa. I did think about the age gap and being widowed early, but truthfully, who is to say God doesn’t take me first? If those are the cards God gives me, I will accept it and God willing, not remarry. For my own daughter, I pray that God’s will is done, and if He wills her to be married that it’s to the right man for her.

My favorite thing about my husband is that he never, ever freaks out about anything, always calm and optimistic, which is something he acquired through various trials over the years. I also love how masculine he is, and I have yet to meet a man around my age who can talk the talk/walk the walk (I’m a younger millennial). He’s also sooooo funny, he can literally tell a lady to shave her beard and they’ll love him for it (happened multiple times lol, medical field stories).

Truthfully, I was really picky intuitively (and I don’t mean about height/money, didn’t care) and knew to get the traits I wanted in a husband, I would have to have something to offer in return (my youth, but also my other gifts). Even though I wasn’t practicing Orthodox at the time, I still prayed all the time to find the right husband for me.

Just my 2¢, whatever it’s worth.

Your husband sounds like he learned from his suffering and grew as a person. That's actually pretty rare. A man like that may be higher quality than a younger man who hasn't had those experiences. But again, very rare. I haven't factored that kind of man into my thinking on this, because it's a lot more likely that any older man interested in my daughter won't be like that.