Older Men, Younger Women, Requirements for Marriage, Etc.

[EntWife]

Being molested or raped isn't one's fault, just like having crap parents or being born into a bad situation.

Abused people often feel broken or unlovable, so while I think it's useful to know that you can't "fix" others, it's possible to get past problems.

Sure, it's not their fault, but most people don't really seem to recover that well. There are huge issues from that, typically for life. She might seem like she's all better early in the relationship, "Your love healed me!", until she's off with another man, letting a certain part of the other guy's body "heal" her. This has actually happened to someone in my family, so it's not a hypothetical scenario.

I also know of cases where the woman married young and was faithful to her husband, but even after decades of marriage, still had problems with intimacy with her husband. One middle-aged woman said that she sometimes couldn't stand for her husband to touch her, not because of anything he did, but because of what her father did when she was a child. Can you imagine being a man whose wife is crying in serious emotional pain, and not only can you not go back in time and protect her from it, but you can't even hold her because she can't stand to be touched by a man at that time?

 

[get2choppaaa]

It would be tragic if my daughter followed my advice but all the young men listened to the older men telling them that it's not possible to marry young to a pure, Christian young woman. Thankfully, there do seem to still be young men who have more sense than that.4

Marrying young is dependent on the person and thier faith. My first wife and I married right after college, she was 21 and I was 23. It was a poor marriage, and not built on foundational values of the Church.

I grew up in a rural area... its not totally uncommon to see this happen and for it to be successful, but its usually with families with strong values ect. If I didnt have boys and had girls, I'd raise them that they needed to marry someone Orthodox or I'd not be approving until they converted.

As for my personal experiences, a woman doesn't have to go to questionable places for men to pressure her for sex. Most of these men were co-workers or customers. I did not encourage them in any way; they just wanted what they wanted. The manosphere has always had a lot to say about how men have to put in effort to have sex, but all women have to do is be young, still breathing, and not morbidly obese. Well, I was young, still breathing, and thin.

Plus, this was before men were (justifiably) afraid of HR. Before 2010 wasn't really that long ago, but it was still a different world. Even in an office environment, men were willing to go after it and try to get sex with a married co-worker if they were attracted to her. Some of the men wouldn't give up either. The only way I could get them to stop was by going to a different job.

I've always wondered though - if that's how it was for me as a reasonably pretty young woman, what was it like for the girls who were actually beautiful? I guess it's no wonder beautiful women are a lot more likely to be rude and have bad attitudes.

Yeah... I cant exactly speak to that, I am saying as a husband, that if my wife told me this was going on at her work I would find a way to ensure she doesnt work. This is what I've done in my situation, we got serious, and I said quit your job now and both parties are more happy that way. Did you honestly enjoy your job and being subjected to objectification as you describe?

While I cant speak to the specifics you're alluding to... Even in the 2010's Im quite sure telling someone "this is inappropriate, and stop it" is a good enough deterant.... they know that means you can sue them if they dont stop. I know people who have owned businesses who were sued as the employer when they had employees with these sorts of allegations in the 90s.... so unless you're on the set of madmen, I am a little skeptical of that... but you lived it so I believe you.

I think you are projecting a bit of your own perceptions into this whole discussion as though every man who sees an attractive young woman is instantly thinking about making advances on her... which is just not the case.

Back on point here.... I can tell you that if your daughter marries and older more established man, that's likely not going to happen that she's gonna have to work... so problem solved.

Kidding obviously, but if you want your daughter to marry young to a young man, you need to be encouraging her into that sort of behavior and environment, in an appropriate way of course.

 

[EntWife]

This is why the OP is seen as trolling. She thinks that any man who desires youth (the last thing left it seems for modern men) is some old and slothful, debased, player. This post in many ways describes me - long path of professional training, orthodox, and in a modern culture where most women aren't in for the long haul with you. Notice I said most, not all. I had a couple of good options, but mostly I never met anyone I even found attractive, to be honest. When you couple that with not everyone is your same faith, or you can't decide between 5-15 options, you frankly aren't likely to find someone to make the kind of decision (a serious one) marriage is. As a result, as an older man who has accomplished a lot in his life already, the only real reason to get married and deal with all of its necessities is if you can have a family. That cannot be realistically done with women in their 30s already, for reasons of both math and biology.

How did I miss this earlier today? It's quite an interesting comment.

Notice the parts I've bolded. You didn't marry one of the options you had, including a couple you describe as "good options". How are women to blame for that? That was your own decision, not the decision of random women who don't marry until their 30's.

The trolling accusation is also interesting. Was I trolling when I started a thread about single mothers, and said that I wouldn't want my son to marry one? Or am I only trolling when I say something that you disagree with?

 

[EntWife]

Marrying young is dependent on the person and thier faith. My first wife and I married right after college, she was 21 and I was 23. It was a poor marriage, and not built on foundational values of the Church.

I grew up in a rural area... its not totally uncommon to see this happen and for it to be successful, but its usually with families with strong values ect. If I didnt have boys and had girls, I'd raise them that they needed to marry someone Orthodox or I'd not be approving until they converted.



Yeah... I cant exactly speak to that, I am saying as a husband, that if my wife told me this was going on at her work I would find a way to ensure she doesnt work. This is what I've done in my situation, we got serious, and I said quit your job now and both parties are more happy that way. Did you honestly enjoy your job and being subjected to objectification as you describe?

While I cant speak to the specifics you're alluding to... Even in the 2010's Im quite sure telling someone "this is inappropriate, and stop it" is a good enough deterant.... they know that means you can sue them if they dont stop. I know people who have owned businesses who were sued as the employer when they had employees with these sorts of allegations in the 90s.... so unless you're on the set of madmen, I am a little skeptical of that... but you lived it so I believe you.

I think you are projecting a bit of your own perceptions into this whole discussion as though every man who sees an attractive young woman is instantly thinking about making advances on her... which is just not the case.

Back on point here.... I can tell you that if your daughter marries and older more established man, that's likely not going to happen that she's gonna have to work... so problem solved.

Kidding obviously, but if you want your daughter to marry young to a young man, you need to be encouraging her into that sort of behavior and environment, in an appropriate way of course.

My husband and I are definitely encouraging our children to marry solid, Orthodox people.

My experiences in the workforce were not in the 2010's, but before 2010. The worst was before 2005. I think you're at least a decade younger than I am (40's)? If so, you weren't working when that kind of stuff was even possible. Most men with even half a brain wouldn't do anything like that now. It's more likely at this point that a woman would falsely accuse a man because she has been reprimanded or fired, or because she wants attention and victimhood points.

At the time, I was working to put my husband through school. I hated being in the workforce. I was very happy to quit and have babies and stay home with them.

In 2021, when we didn't know if Treebeard's job would require the covid shot, I told him not to take the shot under any circumstances, that I could get a job to help out if he lost his. He said that he wouldn't take the shot, but even if he lost his job, he didn't want me to go back into the workforce. He thinks there would still be a bunch of men after me! LOL I'm middle-aged now. I guess there could be the occasional old man whose eyes don't work too good anymore trying to put the moves on me. But I think even most old dudes have gotten the sexual harassment memo by this point.

 

[Pete345]

Women in other countries, by the way, have far more life experiences by age 20, because life is hard and you need to be complementary, not spoiled or selfish. I agree, young women in the west, like most women in the west, are suboptimal (that's being nice) compared to what is raised abroad. It's just how it is, culture and wealth have had their toll and the genie ain't going back in until the financial hard times really come.

I wanted to touch on something that ties into this point here. One reason older men go to other countries to find a wife is not necessarily to mix races or sow their oats. Fact is, as men get older, like me, we realize our options are limited and frankly we recognize that we have little to nothing in common with younger women of child-bearing age, especially in the west, where the pool of Christian non-spoiled, non-feminized women is extremely small. Personally, I wouldn't know what to even talk about with a woman 20 years younger than me. We are from 2 different worlds. I also think that the young men marrying young women is a bit of a luxury that we have grown accustomed to in the west, due to a long and highly stable economy and social structure. IMHO, in countries where the economy or social structure are unstable or dangerous, I think a young woman marrying an older established man is considered highly desirable. I am not arguing for or against one or the other, rather simply making a point that there are 195 countries in the world and shouldn't be judged by the standards of a rich and entitled western culture.

 

[Blade Runner]

Notice the parts I've bolded. You didn't marry one of the options you had, including a couple you describe as "good options". How are women to blame for that? That was your own decision, not the decision of random women who don't marry until their 30's

Looking back you can always analyze what might have been best, but the point of my post (which you missed) is that several things were difficult with these options, including region, religion, etc that all point to the necessity of having a larger pool of compatibility. I didn't see myself marrying someone who wanted to retain their own/family's religious identity which was non orthodox. Even among orthodox girls, the number was so small it was difficult to find compatibility. Please note that I didn't date any of these girls for a long time and certainly not years, precisely because of some (perceived or not) compatibility issues that made a marriage less ideal.

Or am I only trolling when I say something that you disagree with?

I think given the forum's history, this topic is a shot at most of the men that came here, because the west is untraditional. The facts are the the average age of marriage is up dramatically since 1960, and none of the modern innovations in the western cultures benefited men, especially the circumstances of marriage. Marrying older men is a solution to many issues in life, as is proven in other countries and cultures, historically. That's our main point. You post on not liking that, but we've been saying on this forum for years that women aren't prioritizing marriage at young ages, and the facts support that. So your post seems like trolling since it is redundant - you suggest marrying young, and we applaud you, but what's a man to do when women don't want to? That's the point here.

 

[Blade Runner]

IMHO, in countries where the economy or social structure are unstable or dangerous, I think a young woman marrying an older established man is considered highly desirable. I am not arguing for or against one or the other, rather simply making a point that there are 195 countries in the world and shouldn't be judged by the standards of a rich and entitled western culture.

Yes, some of the posters here act like they don't know that men have major value in their 30s and 40s, regardless of what the west says is old (they usually try to equate women being old [30+] with men being old at the same ages). What's more, they continue to ascend in their main value traits (wisdom, provider) and don't lose the ability to reproduce. Since there is less struggle in life, especially for women, in the west, we continue to see these ideas that marriage revolves around romantic love, when in reality it never did, and up to this day doesn't in most of the world. It was always far more about duty, arrangement, family, tribe, etc. When you suggest anything that diminishes women's prospects of mating (leaving 30+ year olds to waste away), there's always a visceral hatred for limiting their sexuality. This thread is another example of that, in spots. Interestingly, what has gone on in the west, which is what this thread has missed from the beginning, is that men have increasingly been limited or neutralized. By the choices of women, whether they are aware of it, or not.

 

[EntWife]

Looking back you can always analyze what might have been best, but the point of my post (which you missed) is that several things were difficult with these options, including region, religion, etc that all point to the necessity of having a larger pool of compatibility. I didn't see myself marrying someone who wanted to retain their own/family's religious identity which was non orthodox. Even among orthodox girls, the number was so small it was difficult to find compatibility. Please note that I didn't date any of these girls for a long time and certainly not years, precisely because of some (perceived or not) compatibility issues that made a marriage less ideal.

People used not to have so many options, so before modern times, a man in your situation would have picked one and started a family. There are no perfect women, just like you're not a perfect man. Treebeard and I have been married for over 20 years, and we're still not entirely compatible in every area. It's not that big of a deal.

You could already be married and have sweet little children running around, if you hadn't over thought it and ruined your own chances, quite a few times from the sound of it. That was your own choice, not the choices of random women in society.

I think given the forum's history, this topic is a shot at most of the men that came here, because the west is untraditional. The facts are the the average age of marriage is up dramatically since 1960, and none of the modern innovations in the western cultures benefited men, especially the circumstances of marriage. Marrying older men is a solution to many issues in life, as is proven in other countries and cultures, historically. That's our main point. You post on not liking that, but we've been saying on this forum for years that women aren't prioritizing marriage at young ages, and the facts support that. So your post seems like trolling since it is redundant - you suggest marrying young, and we applaud you, but what's a man to do when women don't want to? That's the point here.

It's obviously not necessary that I censor myself out of some kind of respect for the forum's history, when the forum's history is teaching men how to increase their chances of fornicating with lots of different women. As Christians, we're not supposed to respect sin.

It's interesting that you keep going on about women not prioritizing marriage young, while talking to a woman who did prioritize marriage young, and when you yourself did not prioritize marriage young.

To have had 5 - 15 options, a couple of which you say were "good options", and failed to marry any of them, and then go on and on blaming the women overall in our society, really looks like you're making excuses for your own decisions.

 

[EntWife]

Yes, some of the posters here act like they don't know that men have major value in their 30s and 40s, regardless of what the west says is old (they usually try to equate women being old [30+] with men being old at the same ages). What's more, they continue to ascend in their main value traits (wisdom, provider) and don't lose the ability to reproduce.

Unfortunately, most men are not gaining wisdom as they grow older. They're a lot more likely to gain bitterness and cynicism, which lowers their value. There are plenty of younger men who are capable of providing for a wife and children, and who don't have the negative traits that many older men have accumulated. Even if an older man can provide a higher standard of living than the younger one, that doesn't outweigh the negatives.

When you suggest anything that diminishes women's prospects of mating (leaving 30+ year olds to waste away), there's always a visceral hatred for limiting their sexuality. This thread is another example of that, in spots. Interestingly, what has gone on in the west, which is what this thread has missed from the beginning, is that men have increasingly been limited or neutralized. By the choices of women, whether they are aware of it, or not.

Why would I be upset at "women's prospects for mating" being "diminished"? The only man I've ever been with is my husband, and even with him, I waited until our wedding night. And I'm teaching my daughter to do the same. That's been pretty clear throughout the thread.

Why would I have a "visceral hatred for limiting [women's] sexuality" when I limited my own sexuality to only one person, my husband, for my whole life?

These sound like excuses. From previous comments, it sounds like you could have gotten married if you had really wanted to do so. You could right now have been raising children to live in a better, more Christian way. That you are not doing so is your own choice, not mine, not my daughter's, not women in society.

 

[Blade Runner]

To have had 5 - 15 options, a couple of which you say were "good options", and failed to marry any of them, and then go on and on blaming the women overall in our society, really looks like you're making excuses for your own decisions.

You've been consistently missing the point, which is that there weren't any number of good options, there were less than one can count on a hand, and they weren't ideal either. My whole point is that the probability of things coming together, given changes in modern life, are exceedingly small. They become even smaller when age gaps are treated as you treat them. I won't keep this up, though, it doesn't seem fruitful and it is your thread. I'll move on.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

Sure, it's not their fault, but most people don't really seem to recover that well. There are huge issues from that, typically for life.

100%.

I am glad people generally feel compassion toward the victims of early sexual trauma, but it not being their fault doesn't mean that the consequences are negated.

I think if my first husband had actually been as advertised, I could have done okay marrying a man close to my own age. He basically exploited the issues I had, instead of affording me a soft place to heal.

After all that, one of the reasons I think an older man ended up being so good for me, is because he's so emotionally rock-steady, and has no problem handling a little volatility from me. In a twisted way, it is a blessing to me that his previous girlfriends included drug addicts and screaming psychos, because to him, my occasional hysterics and panic attacks are very small.

I would not want my sons to marry women with the sorts of issues I have, even though they are relatively minor. Not unless they also end up delaying marriage until horror and hardship and heartbreak have jaded them. And I hope that doesn't happen. I hope they are able to marry young.

Even if they might hypothetically be able to get a "higher value woman" by whatever material definition, if they hold out until they have a lot of resources to leverage... ahem... excuse me... what about grandma???? I mean, if my boys are anything like me (which they are), and if they're built anything like their dad (which they are), yeah, they could probably pull off marrying a girl half their age at 40.

But. what. about. grandma???? *waves wooden spoon around wildly*

How DARE they think they can just make me wait that long for grandbabies? Leave the nest and then make me WAIT 15-20 years??? The absolute hypothetical nerve of those whippersnappers. They better not.

 

[get2choppaaa]

You've been consistently missing the point, which is that there weren't any number of good options, there were less than one can count on a hand, and they weren't ideal either. My whole point is that the probability of things coming together, given changes in modern life, are exceedingly small. They become even smaller when age gaps are treated as you treat them. I won't keep this up, though, it doesn't seem fruitful and it is your thread. I'll move on.

This isn't about facts or advice anymore... It's a soapbox for an outlet not being addressed at home...that's the reoccurring issue with women on the forum.

Otherwise why would OP belabor the point.

 

[Zagor]

This thread somewhat coincides with my situation at the moment. So I’ve met this 24 year old girl (I’m 32), we been hanging out and getting to know each other. She had only one short relationship at 17 and has never actually slept with anyone, and not for a lack of opportunities ( she’s feminine, smoking hot and men are constantly approaching her and checking her out). She was intrigued by me because I was not all over her immediately but treated her with respect and tried to get to know her first. But as we got to know each other better, she said to me that even though she likes me a lot, there are some things she probably couldn’t accept ( the fact that I’ve been with and left some good girls, the fact my father is a gambling addict and that I struggle with porn addiction). I took that personally because I thought if you like someone you can accept their flaws, but upon further reflection I see her point of view. I have some life scars and baggage, while she’s so pristine and innocent. Why would she accept me and my problems when she undoubtedly deserves someone like her who has not been jaded by life experiences? But luckily, she decided to accept my flaws. For whatever reason I must be in God’s grace for such a good thing to have happened to me.

 

[Camellia]

As a mother who is raising kids in America, I can tell you I worry less about my daughter finding a good husband than about my boys finding a good wife. There's an abundance of hard-working men who are willing to settle, even with women who are severely lacking in all feminine areas... which is, sadly, the vast majority. Starting with this forum, some of the women have the argumentative spirit and arrogance that is so typical of western women who think they have to win at all costs. It's no wonder that dignified men like Blade Runner and others have a hard time settling down. Who wants a mediocre relationship that will lead to a miserable life?

You see, where I come from, men are very domineering and, often times, abusive. In America, it's the opposite - women are the abusive ones and they're protected by the legal system. So it's really not fair to say "it's a societal problem, not just a problem with women". Women's behavior is appalling, but I can see why for someone who was raised in this country and never saw any other culture it doesn't seem too bad. My job as a mother is to make sure my daughter never learns to behave this way.

I'm sorry I don't know how to insert quotes, but regarding the advances from men Entwife mentions, I have to say I'm very surprised. In all these years in America there were only two instances when men crossed the line. The first one was a classmate from Morocco who started harassing me. It got so bad my husband had to threaten him. Those guys are crazy! They see something they like, they take it. The second one was my doctor who is from Latin America and a couple of years older than I am. He shamelessly invited me to go out with him, but I told him I was married (which he knew) and not interested, so he didn't bother me again. Note that these are foreign men. American guys, on the other hand, have always been very respectful and professional. Aside from stares, they've never even insinuated anything. I suspect that the ones who behave poorly are lower class.

 

[EntWife]

As a mother who is raising kids in America, I can tell you I worry less about my daughter finding a good husband than about my boys finding a good wife. There's an abundance of hard-working men who are willing to settle, even with women who are severely lacking in all feminine areas... which is, sadly, the vast majority. Starting with this forum, some of the women have the argumentative spirit and arrogance that is so typical of western women who think they have to win at all costs. It's no wonder that dignified men like Blade Runner and others have a hard time settling down. Who wants a mediocre relationship that will lead to a miserable life?

You see, where I come from, men are very domineering and, often times, abusive. In America, it's the opposite - women are the abusive ones and they're protected by the legal system. So it's really not fair to say "it's a societal problem, not just a problem with women". Women's behavior is appalling, but I can see why for someone who was raised in this country and never saw any other culture it doesn't seem too bad. My job as a mother is to make sure my daughter never learns to behave this way.

I'm sorry I don't know how to insert quotes, but regarding the advances from men Entwife mentions, I have to say I'm very surprised. In all these years in America there were only two instances when men crossed the line. The first one was a classmate from Morocco who started harassing me. It got so bad my husband had to threaten him. Those guys are crazy! They see something they like, they take it. The second one was my doctor who is from Latin America and a couple of years older than I am. He shamelessly invited me to go out with him, but I told him I was married (which he knew) and not interested, so he didn't bother me again. Note that these are foreign men. American guys, on the other hand, have always been very respectful and professional. Aside from stares, they've never even insinuated anything. I suspect that the ones who behave poorly are lower class.

Just because something hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it hasn't happened to someone else. I was never molested or raped, but there are still other people who have been.

In the time period I'm talking about, there absolutely were men acting like that, both coworkers and customers. The woman was supposed to put up with it, especially if it was a customer. That was back when "the customer was always right". Unless it cost the company money, in which case the company could be quite firm that the customer was wrong. Hounding a female employee for sex or trying to convince her to divorce her husband didn't qualify as wrong for the company that wanted the customer's money.

For the men, remember when the manosphere had to tell guys, "Don't ____ where you eat"? In other words, don't go after women at work. Because there were men doing that, and I ran into some of them.

 

[EntWife]

This isn't about facts or advice anymore... It's a soapbox for an outlet not being addressed at home...that's the reoccurring issue with women on the forum.

Otherwise why would OP belabor the point.

What are you talking about?

 

[EntWife]

In one of Father John Krestiankin's letters, he wrote, "Who starts a family without his parents’ blessing? Who does not want to take into account the rules of the Church which state that between spouses there should be no more than five year’s difference, plus or minus, in age?"

https://orthochristian.com/7232.html

I don't know how I forgot about that, when I used to know a priest that would talk about that quite a bit.

 

[get2choppaaa]

What are you talking about?

Well ...just see your posts from the view of an outsider:

You're kvetching about older men seeking younger women.

It shouldn't be a mystifying action as to why they would....

You're complaining about men hitting on you in previous lines of work.

Shouldn't be a shocker either. Men are going to hit on women

And making postulations about why this is occuring...

If you've got it taken care of on the home front..
What's the point of this thread?

My old lady isn't out there seeking advice for these things on a public forum when she knows the answer is already addressed at home...so my thought is... Surely this is being addressed internally first. If not start there.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

What's the point of this thread?

Women talk about things and share ideas amongst themselves. Always have, always will. The ones who have things all taken care of at home share their wisdom with those who are learning, etc.

If I'm not mistaken, part of the reason this Ladies' Forum exists is to fill the gap for those of us who are lacking the sorts of real-life communities and circles where these sorts of conversations among Christian women would typically take place.

I don't see the need to be like "OY VEY SHUT IT DOWN" because women are discussing things like women.

 

[EntWife]

Well ...just see your posts from the view of an outsider:

You're kvetching about older men seeking younger women.

It shouldn't be a mystifying action as to why they would....

You're complaining about men hitting on you in previous lines of work.

Shouldn't be a shocker either. Men are going to hit on women

And making postulations about why this is occuring...

If you've got it taken care of on the home front..
What's the point of this thread?

My old lady isn't out there seeking advice for these things on a public forum when she knows the answer is already addressed at home...so my thought is... Surely this is being addressed internally first. If not start there.

If you look back at the comment where I talked about that, it was in response to this idea that society's problems are due to women, but not men. So if only women would prioritize marriage young, then men would not be forced into sin and bad choices.

I was refuting that by pointing out that when I was young and making the right choices, there were men trying awful hard to get me to make the wrong choices. Men sin because they want to, not because women have forced them into it. Some of them were married men whose wives were young when they got married. Women's choices were not their problem. Their own desire for sin was their problem.

As for women discussing things on the forum, that's what the Ladies' Forum is for. The men are not forced to talk to us if they don't want to. Actually, if the men don't comment on the Ladies' Forum, it will die a natural death because there aren't enough ladies regularly commenting to keep it alive. So if you don't think that women should be commenting here, I have to wonder why you yourself are contributing to keeping the Ladies' Forum going.

As long as it is still alive, there will be women commenting for the same reason that men do - because we're human beings and like to talk to other human beings about things we're interested in.