Older Men, Younger Women, Requirements for Marriage, Etc.

[Aboulia]

In one of Father John Krestiankin's letters, he wrote, "Who starts a family without his parents’ blessing? Who does not want to take into account the rules of the Church which state that between spouses there should be no more than five year’s difference, plus or minus, in age?"

https://orthochristian.com/7232.html

I don't know how I forgot about that, when I used to know a priest that would talk about that quite a bit.

As soon as I saw the thread title, I thought you may as well have called the thread "Paging Blade Runner", that's probably why he assumes you're trolling.

I think you're reaching here Entwife, while I'm in general agreement with your premises. The blessing of the parents is necessary of course, but as for the age difference, It would be nice to cite the canon, as I'm having difficulty finding it. And even if there is a canon, there's most likely many instances in which it can, and should be ignored. Canons in things like this are a warning, not an absolute standard.

As an unmarried guy in his mid 30s and I can also understand where Blade Runner is coming from. The system we live in discourages marraige, there are no alienation of affection laws and no-one wants to be run through the wringer of (no fault) divorce courts. As Camellia has pointed out, we don't live in the time in which you experienced your difficulties. Men have to be extra cautious, You can't just pull a "Paul the Simple" if your wife turns out to be unfaithful, the courts will drag you there and imprison you if necessary.

There's nothing wrong with encouraging your daughter to marry the same age. I would think the most important part (which I'm sure you're doing) would be raising your daughter in a way where she trusts both you and your husband's judgement. That way she'll ask your blessing prior to marriage. But at the same time there's nothing wrong with Blade Runner pursuing someone more youthful with good intentions. Hopefully God blesses both your individual intentions and you both find what you're looking for.

 

[EntWife]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I thought you may as well have called the thread "Paging Blade Runner", that's probably why he assumes you're trolling.

I think you're reaching here Entwife, while I'm in general agreement with your premises. The blessing of the parents is necessary of course, but as for the age difference, It would be nice to cite the canon, as I'm having difficulty finding it. And even if there is a canon, there's most likely many instances in which it can, and should be ignored. Canons in things like this are a warning, not an absolute standard.

As an unmarried guy in his mid 30s and I can also understand where Blade Runner is coming from. The system we live in discourages marraige, there are no alienation of affection laws and no-one wants to be run through the wringer of (no fault) divorce courts. As Camellia has pointed out, we don't live in the time in which you experienced your difficulties. Men have to be extra cautious, You can't just pull a "Paul the Simple" if your wife turns out to be unfaithful, the courts will drag you there and imprison you if necessary.

There's nothing wrong with encouraging your daughter to marry the same age. I would think the most important part (which I'm sure you're doing) would be raising your daughter in a way where she trusts both you and your husband's judgement. That way she'll ask your blessing prior to marriage. But at the same time there's nothing wrong with Blade Runner pursuing someone more youthful with good intentions. Hopefully God blesses both your individual intentions and you both find what you're looking for.

Apparently BladeRunner thought so too!

If you look at my thread on single mothers though, you'll see that I was previously considering what kind of women my sons should not marry. Of course, ultimately my children will choose their own spouses, since we don't do arranged marriages anymore. We parents still have to teach and advise them, and there's nothing wrong with talking to other Christians about it, even if it's on the internet.

The priest I knew years ago who said no more than a five year age gap according to the canons, also said that the Church would still marry people with a larger age gap because otherwise they might just live in sin.

Edit to add: Father John Krestiankin didn't say this was from the Church canons; he said "the rules of the Church". The priest I used to know did say it was from the canons, but sometimes he wouldn't correctly remember where what he was saying came from. He was kinda old.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

In one of Father John Krestiankin's letters, he wrote, "Who starts a family without his parents’ blessing? Who does not want to take into account the rules of the Church which state that between spouses there should be no more than five year’s difference, plus or minus, in age?"

https://orthochristian.com/7232.html

I don't know how I forgot about that, when I used to know a priest that would talk about that quite a bit.

The Unequal Marriage - Vasily Pukirev - Google Arts & Culture

Google Arts & Culture features content from over 2000 leading museums and archives who have partnered with the Google Cultural Institute to bring the world's treasures online.

artsandculture.google.com

For the men, remember when the manosphere had to tell guys, "Don't ____ where you eat"? In other words, don't go after women at work. Because there were men doing that, and I ran into some of them.

Yeah I feel like this entire thread is like that scene in Moonstruck lol.

 

[Aboulia]

Apparently BladeRunner thought so too!

If you look at my thread on single mothers though, you'll see that I was previously considering what kind of women my sons should not marry. Of course, ultimately my children will choose their own spouses, since we don't do arranged marriages anymore. We parents still have to teach and advise them, and there's nothing wrong with talking to other Christians about it, even if it's on the internet.

The priest I knew years ago who said no more than a five year age gap according to the canons, also said that the Church would still marry people with a larger age gap because otherwise they might just live in sin.

Edit to add: Father John Krestiankin didn't say this was from the Church canons; he said "the rules of the Church". The priest I used to know did say it was from the canons, but sometimes he wouldn't correctly remember where what he was saying came from. He was kinda old.

The particular wording of the phrase is irrelevant, as the rules of the church are canons. The gist of what I'm saying is that you cant take a canon from a couple hundred if not a thousand years ago and apply it to the modern world. It just doesn't work. Which is why the priest himself admitted that the canon was ignored. I get why it's there, (and that's why I agree with you in basic premise.) As it's best practice to encourage those to get married who have a similar experience in life, as they can more easily relate. And the ideal would be for the young to marry young. However without knowing when they were written, I could assure you that it wasn't at a time when men were encouraged to be eternal adolescents and women weren't encouraged towards emotional self-willed destructive behaviours.

I'm the unmarried type you would put in the box as "one who overthinks everything". But I honestly don't think I would have been ready for marriage prior to being Orthodox for a few years. (which is also probably why Orthodoxy doesn't consider the non-Orthodox as validly married) I could guarantee you I would have been destroyed by the culture had I pursued it, as secular people aren't taught about passions, or how men are susceptible to images, or that it's largely how women operate. Understanding how images are influencing you is critical to keeping a level head, which men ought to keep.

 

[EntWife]

The Unequal Marriage - Vasily Pukirev - Google Arts & Culture

Google Arts & Culture features content from over 2000 leading museums and archives who have partnered with the Google Cultural Institute to bring the world's treasures online.

artsandculture.google.com

Yeah I feel like this entire thread is like that scene in Moonstruck lol.

I actually thought of that painting when I was typing one of my comments!

I'm not really a big movie person, so you can assume I'm pretty much illiterate when it comes to movies. Would you be willing to post a clip showing what you're talking about? If it's too much trouble, don't worry about it.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

I'm not really a big movie person, so you can assume I'm pretty much illiterate when it comes to movies. Would you be willing to post a clip showing what you're talking about? If it's too much trouble, don't worry about it.

 

[EntWife]

I see what you're talking about. LOL

 

[analyst_green]

This thread somewhat coincides with my situation at the moment. So I’ve met this 24 year old girl (I’m 32), we been hanging out and getting to know each other. She had only one short relationship at 17 and has never actually slept with anyone, and not for a lack of opportunities ( she’s feminine, smoking hot and men are constantly approaching her and checking her out). She was intrigued by me because I was not all over her immediately but treated her with respect and tried to get to know her first. But as we got to know each other better, she said to me that even though she likes me a lot, there are some things she probably couldn’t accept ( the fact that I’ve been with and left some good girls, the fact my father is a gambling addict and that I struggle with porn addiction). I took that personally because I thought if you like someone you can accept their flaws, but upon further reflection I see her point of view. I have some life scars and baggage, while she’s so pristine and innocent. Why would she accept me and my problems when she undoubtedly deserves someone like her who has not been jaded by life experiences? But luckily, she decided to accept my flaws. For whatever reason I must be in God’s grace for such a good thing to have happened to me.

I'm happy you've found someone like that. You illustrate a problem with the assumption many make here. Older does not always mean more baggage and problems. Often it can mean the opposite since time affords us the opportunity to find a resolution. You can break free of your past, especially when you accept God into your life. Men should see the past as a lesson but it doesn't have to affect your emotions.

I was more bitter and jaded as a younger man. I was sex obsessed, reading the PUA blogs, doubting myself all the time, and I wound up in a world of self inflicted anxiety and depression throughout my 20s. But now after realizing the error of my ways I can feel a sense of peace and hope for the future that I hadn't felt since my teenage years. I too struggle from porn addiction still but I'm taking steps to overcome that too and feel like I'm right on the precipice of true inner freedom. My mindset has gotten better with age, not worse. It could've gone a different way though, I could've killed myself or gone on my way to become a jaded, lonely old man. So I get some younger women's reservations.

But even if I had met the right woman earlier I would have been in no state to be a good man to her. I would've made an awful father too. I still feel like I have a ways to go but I'm almost 30 so I certainly feel the clock ticking and pray to God I can meet someone in the next few years. But I know there are other good men older than me out there who may have gone through similar things. And there are good younger men who didn't mess their lives up like I did. All to say that we each have our own journey and I hope women can see us for our qualities in the present and our future value as a partner.

 

[Lawrence87]

I don't think there's that much difference between men being black-pilled regarding women, and the mentality behind the OP. That being the wholesale writing off of entire demographics based on assumptions about them.

Whilst it is true that such assumptions can prove to be a useful guide, they can also hinder us.

I think this whole mentality is wrong. It doesn't matter what the state of men is, or what the state of women is in general. If you are a faithful Christian then God will provide you with a man or woman who is entirely suitable for the salvation of your soul. And if you don't believe that, and instead choose to think bleakly, swallowing the black pill, rather than to have trust, hope, and faith in God Almighty, then how can you expect Him to provide that which you don't believe in?

 

[EntWife]

The particular wording of the phrase is irrelevant, as the rules of the church are canons. The gist of what I'm saying is that you cant take a canon from a couple hundred if not a thousand years ago and apply it to the modern world. It just doesn't work. Which is why the priest himself admitted that the canon was ignored. I get why it's there, (and that's why I agree with you in basic premise.) As it's best practice to encourage those to get married who have a similar experience in life, as they can more easily relate. And the ideal would be for the young to marry young. However without knowing when they were written, I could assure you that it wasn't at a time when men were encouraged to be eternal adolescents and women weren't encouraged towards emotional self-willed destructive behaviours.

I'm the unmarried type you would put in the box as "one who overthinks everything". But I honestly don't think I would have been ready for marriage prior to being Orthodox for a few years. (which is also probably why Orthodoxy doesn't consider the non-Orthodox as validly married) I could guarantee you I would have been destroyed by the culture had I pursued it, as secular people aren't taught about passions, or how men are susceptible to images, or that it's largely how women operate. Understanding how images are influencing you is critical to keeping a level head, which men ought to keep.

There are a lot of canons we would find very difficult to keep nowadays. There's a prophecy that after the upcoming war, the people who have survived it will live much closer to 1st century Christianity. I guess that would mean less blanket economia, and more strictness. I bet this is one canon that still wouldn't be applied too strictly though, because it's better for people to marry with a too-large age gap, than for them to go off and fornicate.

Some people who over think things when it comes to marriage have some kind of issue they need to get past or maybe heal from before they can take that step. For a lot of people, it's childhood trauma from their parents' divorce. And it is trauma too - children whose parents divorce live on average five years less than those whose parents remain married. It's that traumatic for them. I'm not saying that that's you. This is just an example that I've seen quite a bit in real life.

Images are huge for everyone. That's why Satan has made sure that there is soft porn all over the place, especially in advertisements. Of course, that affects women and children too, but I can see how men especially would struggle with that.

I think one reason some men fixate on younger women, most of whom are unobtainable for older men, is because they're worrying too much about fertility. Lots of women have babies in their 30's. Since you're in your mid-30's, you could marry a woman who is late 20's to early 30's and still have multiple children. As long as she hasn't had abortions or gotten STD's, she can probably still bear you 2 or 3 children, which is more than you have now.

I myself had a couple of my children in my 30's, and there are plenty of other women who have done the same. A woman's fertility usually drops precipitously in her late 30's and early 40's. I know a few women who have had babies in their 40's, but that's kinda rare. You should assume a woman in her 40's has low to zero fertility.

I hope you and the other single men on the forum can find wives and establish families, if it's God's will for you.

 

[RedLagoon]

I see 6ft tall 20 something tradies making at least a 100k a year with hippos for girlfriends or wives. It's never the other way around, never ever.

The pretty non hippo somewhat conservative girl generally has an older (30s 40s) financially successful man who is also in shape. Those are also the ones with the healthy children, not obese. It's looking rough for the gen Z men these days. Good thing is that anyone can lose weight but with the "fat positive" and other unbelievable nonsense in this mad world it's only going to get worse.

To the OP; your daughter might miss out and go through a divorce in her 20s like some of my friends did who married young. Fortunately I got married young with a young wife but we're the last ones left. I understand your sentiment and reasoning but the arrow is pointed at the female and think that's what BladeRunner was trying to explain.

 

[EntWife]

I'm happy you've found someone like that. You illustrate a problem with the assumption many make here. Older does not always mean more baggage and problems. Often it can mean the opposite since time affords us the opportunity to find a resolution. You can break free of your past, especially when you accept God into your life. Men should see the past as a lesson but it doesn't have to affect your emotions.

I was more bitter and jaded as a younger man. I was sex obsessed, reading the PUA blogs, doubting myself all the time, and I wound up in a world of self inflicted anxiety and depression throughout my 20s. But now after realizing the error of my ways I can feel a sense of peace and hope for the future that I hadn't felt since my teenage years. I too struggle from porn addiction still but I'm taking steps to overcome that too and feel like I'm right on the precipice of true inner freedom. My mindset has gotten better with age, not worse. It could've gone a different way though, I could've killed myself or gone on my way to become a jaded, lonely old man. So I get some younger women's reservations.

But even if I had met the right woman earlier I would have been in no state to be a good man to her. I would've made an awful father too. I still feel like I have a ways to go but I'm almost 30 so I certainly feel the clock ticking and pray to God I can meet someone in the next few years. But I know there are other good men older than me out there who may have gone through similar things. And there are good younger men who didn't mess their lives up like I did. All to say that we each have our own journey and I hope women can see us for our qualities in the present and our future value as a partner.

I've heard people saying things that sound a lot like this, and then they find someone. I'm not saying that that will happen for you, because obviously I don't know. But even if not, to have found peace with your situation is not exactly a common thing. It's inspiring.

 

[EntWife]

I don't think there's that much difference between men being black-pilled regarding women, and the mentality behind the OP. That being the wholesale writing off of entire demographics based on assumptions about them.

Whilst it is true that such assumptions can prove to be a useful guide, they can also hinder us.

I think this whole mentality is wrong. It doesn't matter what the state of men is, or what the state of women is in general. If you are a faithful Christian then God will provide you with a man or woman who is entirely suitable for the salvation of your soul. And if you don't believe that, and instead choose to think bleakly, swallowing the black pill, rather than to have trust, hope, and faith in God Almighty, then how can you expect Him to provide that which you don't believe in?

It's true that God will provide the right spouse if necessary for your salvation. Individual people can still make the wrong choices though. God doesn't force anyone to accept His will for their life.

That's why parents still have to teach their children what to look for in a spouse, and what to avoid. That is my duty as a mother. If I fail to do that, and my children make the wrong choices, then I will have to answer to God for that.

If God has someone for one of my children who doesn't match the general guidelines that they should ordinarily follow, then I trust that He can make that known to them and to my husband and me.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

I also know of cases where the woman married young and was faithful to her husband, but even after decades of marriage, still had problems with intimacy with her husband. One middle-aged woman said that she sometimes couldn't stand for her husband to touch her, not because of anything he did, but because of what her father did when she was a child. Can you imagine being a man whose wife is crying in serious emotional pain, and not only can you not go back in time and protect her from it, but you can't even hold her because she can't stand to be touched by a man at that time?

Anything can be a problem. People get married young and out of the gate and develop FOMO, older people tend to be more set in their ways and may have problems meshing; pretty much everyone in the world had some kind of strange family dymamic that will make their spouse frustrated or confused at some point. You can marry or not marry for any reason-- some people are more compatible than others because they understand each other, and if they love each other there's a way to work it out. (This is different than somebody going "well if you really loved me you'd do X!" or whatever)

I guess my short version is that it's better to judge by what people do, not what they say, and it's a better spousal screening process than anything else.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

it's better to judge by what people do, not what they say

Always.

 

[Lawrence87]

delete

 

[Thomas More]

I just ran across the article linked below. It says most men in their 20s are single (63%), and most women are not (only 34% single). Simple logic tells me that 29% of women in their 20's are in relationships with older men.

I suppose a lot of that is just 29 year old women with 31 year old men, but I bet there are a lot of 25f-35m relationships too. The numbers show that older men can find younger women. However, as we know, most of these women are not suitable for Christian marriage, and in fact a lot of them are fat and horrible!

Anyway, I thought it was interesting how big a difference there is between the numbers for men and women in this age range.

Most young men are single. Most young women are not.

More than 60 percent of young men are single, nearly twice the rate of unattached young women, signaling a larger breakdown in the social, romantic and sexual life of the American male. Men i…

thehill.com

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

Simple logic tells me that 29% of women in their 20's are in relationships with older men.

The rule of thumb among most of my friends when I was young, was that any potential husband had to be "at least three years older," but generally not more than 7-8 years older.

A handful were willing to marry closer in age or younger than themselves. A handful were willing to entertain a gap of a decade or more.

I think it's pretty normal to want a man a few years older, because for most women, if we were to begin seeking a husband as soon as we reached sexual maturity (and most begin LOOKING then, even if "dating" or courtship are not permitted), most of the males our own age would not have reached puberty yet.

It was not possible for me to have any kind of crush on any 12 year old boy I ever met, once I was a 12 year old girl. I was basically fully grown, and they were still children. 15 and up was where the boys generally started to look and sound like men.

Perhaps aggressive sex-segregation of non-familial males and females really is necessary to promote optimal pairing for marriage, if less than five years difference truly is the ideal.

I cannot imagine marrying a man I had ever spent much time around while he was a pre-pubescent child and I was a post-pubescent young woman. Don't let me near him until we're both 20, and it might be fine.

 

[Thomas More]

The rule of thumb among most of my friends when I was young, was that any potential husband had to be "at least three years older," but generally not more than 7-8 years older.

A handful were willing to marry closer in age or younger than themselves. A handful were willing to entertain a gap of a decade or more.

I think it's pretty normal to want a man a few years older, because for most women, if we were to begin seeking a husband as soon as we reached sexual maturity (and most begin LOOKING then, even if "dating" or courtship are not permitted), most of the males our own age would not have reached puberty yet.

It was not possible for me to have any kind of crush on any 12 year old boy I ever met, once I was a 12 year old girl. I was basically fully grown, and they were still children. 15 and up was where the boys generally started to look and sound like men.

Perhaps aggressive sex-segregation of non-familial males and females really is necessary to promote optimal pairing for marriage, if less than five years difference truly is the ideal.

I cannot imagine marrying a man I had ever spent much time around while he was a pre-pubescent child and I was a post-pubescent young woman. Don't let me near him until we're both 20, and it might be fine.

I've heard that growing up with somebody makes them unattractive as a potential mate. However, I grew up in a small town where most of my high school graduating class was also part of my Kindergarten class. We all knew each other growing up, and the same with the classes a year or two older and younger. A lot of them ended up getting married after high school. Obviously they were able to put aside knowing each other since childhood.

I never dated anyone that I knew from childhood so I can't say how I would have felt about it. It might be different for boy considering a girl, vs the other way around. I certainly found girls attractive in high school after knowing them since we were 5.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

I've heard that growing up with somebody makes them unattractive as a potential mate.

The Westermarck effect.