Older Men, Younger Women, Requirements for Marriage, Etc.

[EntWife]

I just ran across the article linked below. It says most men in their 20s are single (63%), and most women are not (only 34% single). Simple logic tells me that 29% of women in their 20's are in relationships with older men.

I suppose a lot of that is just 29 year old women with 31 year old men, but I bet there are a lot of 25f-35m relationships too. The numbers show that older men can find younger women. However, as we know, most of these women are not suitable for Christian marriage, and in fact a lot of them are fat and horrible!

Anyway, I thought it was interesting how big a difference there is between the numbers for men and women in this age range.

Most young men are single. Most young women are not.

More than 60 percent of young men are single, nearly twice the rate of unattached young women, signaling a larger breakdown in the social, romantic and sexual life of the American male. Men i…

thehill.com

When I was 26 - 29, my husband was 30 - 33.

It's probably mostly mid to late 20's women marrying early to mid 30's men. That's perfectly normal, when it comes to the age gap aspect of it. What's not normal is that people are waiting so long to get married and marrying after having fornicated all over the place.

 

[EntWife]

I always heard that if you grew up with someone very closely, like in the same household, you wouldn't want to marry them or fornicate with them because it would feel like incest. It has to be young though, like before 8. It happens even if only one of them is that young, such as with a stepfather and a stepdaughter younger than 8.

The reason I didn't want to marry the boys I went to school with was because they were the same age as me. I wanted someone maybe 2 - 4 years older. Girls mature quicker than boys (in general, not always), so same age boys seemed immature. That maturity difference disappears in the 20's, for normal people anyway. Some people never mature.

I've seen some older men who haven't matured go after younger (more than 10 years) women, or even teenage girls (below 18). It seems like they're more comfortable with a younger woman or a girl because their maturity levels match. The problem is that if the older man hasn't matured yet, he's probably not going to. She probably will mature. The most likely result is divorce.

 

[Aboulia]

There are a lot of canons we would find very difficult to keep nowadays. There's a prophecy that after the upcoming war, the people who have survived it will live much closer to 1st century Christianity. I guess that would mean less blanket economia, and more strictness. I bet this is one canon that still wouldn't be applied too strictly though, because it's better for people to marry with a too-large age gap, than for them to go off and fornicate.

Some people who over think things when it comes to marriage have some kind of issue they need to get past or maybe heal from before they can take that step. For a lot of people, it's childhood trauma from their parents' divorce. And it is trauma too - children whose parents divorce live on average five years less than those whose parents remain married. It's that traumatic for them. I'm not saying that that's you. This is just an example that I've seen quite a bit in real life.

Images are huge for everyone. That's why Satan has made sure that there is soft porn all over the place, especially in advertisements. Of course, that affects women and children too, but I can see how men especially would struggle with that.

I think one reason some men fixate on younger women, most of whom are unobtainable for older men, is because they're worrying too much about fertility. Lots of women have babies in their 30's. Since you're in your mid-30's, you could marry a woman who is late 20's to early 30's and still have multiple children. As long as she hasn't had abortions or gotten STD's, she can probably still bear you 2 or 3 children, which is more than you have now.

I myself had a couple of my children in my 30's, and there are plenty of other women who have done the same. A woman's fertility usually drops precipitously in her late 30's and early 40's. I know a few women who have had babies in their 40's, but that's kinda rare. You should assume a woman in her 40's has low to zero fertility.

I hope you and the other single men on the forum can find wives and establish families, if it's God's will for you.

I'm well aware it's traumatic, even for infants, and conflating healing from trauma with overthinking is quite a stretch in my opinion.

Yes, IIRC, most of women's eggs are gone by 30, and there's a 10% chance of down syndrome if the first child is conceived after 35. Most of these things are known around here, which unfortunately are hidden from the average women intentionally by the anti-culture we live in. It's also why I can understand someone like Blade Runner's motivations for seeking someone younger. When the purpose of marriage is generally viewed as solely for provision for procreation, and we live in a world that only cares about appearances, it's no wonder why fertility is fixated on.

FWIW, Age isn't something that's a huge focus for me, The physical fades away but the person stays the same, Who knows whether I'll get married or enter a monastery though.

Perhaps aggressive sex-segregation of non-familial males and females really is necessary to promote optimal pairing for marriage, if less than five years difference truly is the ideal.

Well, if Entwife produces the canon, then we can look at the circumstances surrounding why it was brought up at a council. It was most likely set forth to tackle a social problem in that particular time and place. When the first couple mentioned by name after the fall (Abraham and Sarah), had a 10 year difference between them, I have serious doubts that God was setting the ideal standard at half that.

 

[EntWife]

I'm well aware it's traumatic, even for infants, and conflating healing from trauma with overthinking is quite a stretch in my opinion.

Yes, IIRC, most of women's eggs are gone by 30, and there's a 10% chance of down syndrome if the first child is conceived after 35. Most of these things are known around here, which unfortunately are hidden from the average women intentionally by the anti-culture we live in. It's also why I can understand someone like Blade Runner's motivations for seeking someone younger. When the purpose of marriage is generally viewed as solely for provision for procreation, and we live in a world that only cares about appearances, it's no wonder why fertility is fixated on.

FWIW, Age isn't something that's a huge focus for me, The physical fades away but the person stays the same, Who knows whether I'll get married or enter a monastery though.




Well, if Entwife produces the canon, then we can look at the circumstances surrounding why it was brought up at a council. It was most likely set forth to tackle a social problem in that particular time and place. When the first couple mentioned by name after the fall (Abraham and Sarah), had a 10 year difference between them, I have serious doubts that God was setting the ideal standard at half that.

I'm not saying that everyone who over thinks spouse selection and marriage is traumatized by their parents' divorce. Some of them are. I've personally known some people like that, both men and women. It was just an example.

Since you mentioned Blade Runner though, I'm pretty sure he has said that he's in his mid-30's. He could marry a below-35 woman (late 20's, early 30's) and have non-Downs babies. His bigger problem is finding a solid Orthodox woman. He's not that likely to find a below-25 woman, who is Orthodox, thin, mentally stable, and pretty, who will also be willing to marry a man his age and will be compatible with him. It looks like he's basically making sure that he will remain a bachelor while blaming women for it.

BTW, in my previous comment I was not saying that you yourself were having any of these issues. I apologize if it came across that way.

A woman's eggs are dying off throughout her life, including in childhood. I've seen people fear-mongering about this, but women still have eggs left in their 30's. Not as many, but we only need 1 per month, roughly. Fertility dropping fast in late 30's a lot of times is from other things, not a lack of eggs.

I'm willing to trust Father John Krestiankin on the no more than 5 year rule. Abraham also married his half-sister, and that is no longer allowed. I assume the men on the forum wouldn't want to do that though! LOL

 

[Ah_Tibor]

A woman's eggs are dying off throughout her life, including in childhood. I've seen people fear-mongering about this, but women still have eggs left in their 30's. Not as many, but we only need 1 per month, roughly. Fertility dropping fast in late 30's a lot of times is from other things, not a lack of eggs.

I'm 34 and we just had another baby. Good pregnancy and delivery with no complications.

It's bizarre to assume that women don't "know" they have limited time-- I was just reading an FB comment section where every single one was "have kids when you're young, it sucks when you're older!" It's not impossible, you're just way more tired, and every single adult woman tells you this since you're born.

Everybody knows this in normal life, it's the people who don't want/can't have kids who use the "eee travelling and having money is great!" cope. And I respect if somebody genuinely doesn't want children.

I think it is a different issue dealing with family formation and divorce laws, though-- or even attitudes towards divorce and the opposite sex. If you start out expecting to fail, you'll probably prove yourself right at some point.

I'm willing to trust Father John Krestiankin on the no more than 5 year rule.

I remember reading through a rudder when I was a kid with stuff like "actors can't be priests" or the more obscure random canons. It reminded me of those crazy laws books where it's like IT'S ILLEGAL TO SLEEP IN YOUR REFRIGERATOR! It had to put it into effect because somebody did something stupid, so if there's a canon about age gaps it's probably because a lot of parents married off their daughters to whoever could "provide."

 

[Stadtaffe]

There is a Wiki around this topic with a bunch of statistics and discussion -

Age disparity in sexual relationships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually there is a term 'chronophilia' with refers to attraction to certain age ranges -

Chronophilia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Blade Runner]

What solves the fertility crisis of europeans? Age gaps. End of story.

I couldn't help myself, the thread popped up again.

It's one thing when people complain. It's another thing when they reject actual solutions.

 

[prisonplanet]

Just in skimming, one issue that was presented here is concern over a woman outliving her husband. I think this is why the Bible puts so much emphasis on widows being encouraged to have a new husband. It's also a symptom of society losing its understanding on the role of men. Men are, in a sense, born to die. We aren't made to live out a long, slow aging process, because we are built to be in dangerous situations. Certainly many do die old, but even so, it really shouldn't be a big deal for those left behind. For a widow, you grieve and then proceed. Men die - hopefully they did some good.

I have five siblings, four sisters and a brother. I'm the second youngest and the only unmarried one. My sisters' husbands range from 5-12 years older, and my brother is five years older than his wife. I couldn't imagine they had married the same age, as they feel far more in sync than they would otherwise. Granted, 5-12 is fairly standard, but still, an age gap. Most of the women will outlive their spouses. And? They'll either remarry, as God said they can/should, or they'll try being content single. We shouldn't be seeking a long, safe life, but the right one. A young woman may or may not want to marry an older man, but concerns about him dying too soon are the last thing she should be concerned about. If anything, she should be concerned about marrying a man who would choose a "safe" life where longevity was more the aim rather than quality.

Can a man give a woman some good years, and can a a woman give a man some good years? If yes, do not overthink. As for the emotional element to it, everyone is different. I was actually more bitter and jaded in my 20s than in my present 30s. It isn't always clear which way that will go.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

I think if mothers and fathers raise their daughters right and support them in finding a good husband early in life, those young women should not necessarily NEED to look for an older man.

AND

I think that, moving forward, we WILL reach a point where a great many people will have to either adapt to a more realistic set of expectations or get comfortable not marrying/not having kids/dying alone.

I tend to think the fertility crisis will be solved by people who understand family formation and reproduction as a duty and not a lifestyle goal relating to personal fulfillment. That does include some women marrying men who are older. And shorter. And uglier. It also includes women marrying men with fewer resources and less security. It includes some men marrying women who are plainer and squishier and less innocent and with more baggage than ideal (and yes, some will marry the mid-30s women who can probably only have a few children at most but are otherwise decent). It includes all sorts of people settling in all sorts of ways, if they are fortunate enough to get some sense beaten into them when smacked by reality.

Things have to get pretty bad first, though. I mean, bad enough for people to start noticing - and that is apparently very very very bad.

It will also include folks who missed the boat, or people like me who wish they'd had MORE children and can look back and recognize the choices they made that interfered, taking an active role in teaching young people how to avoid those mistakes and temptations, instead of leaving future generations to the same "find yourself and figure it out" nonsense that my parents' generation bought into.

 

[prisonplanet]

I think if mothers and fathers raise their daughters right and support them in finding a good husband early in life, those young women should not necessarily NEED to look for an older man.

Women don't always just look to an older man out of need. Some older men simply look good and keep looking good, and are attractive to younger women.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

Women don't always just look to an older man out of need. Some older men simply look good and keep looking good, and are attractive to younger women.

Preaching to the choir!

 

[Ah_Tibor]

Can a man give a woman some good years, and can a a woman give a man some good years? If yes, do not overthink. As for the emotional element to it, everyone is different. I was actually more bitter and jaded in my 20s than in my present 30s. It isn't always clear which way that will go.

This is true. I don't think anyone should be discouraged from marrying-- some people with some age disparity might just "click" for whatever reason-- I think the issue is saying this is *the* way.

Dostoevsky married his stenographer who was 30 (?) yrs younger*, but even that wasn't really the norm at the time, and she was pretty depressed her first year of marriage and he was paranoid that she would find somebody else. And he did die early. I doubt she regretted marrying him, though.

* https://bloggerskaramazov.com/2017/02/13/anna-grigorievna-1/ edit: 26 years

 

[Viktor Zeegelaar]

Can a man give a woman some good years, and can a a woman give a man some good years? If yes, do not overthink. As for the emotional element to it, everyone is different. I was actually more bitter and jaded in my 20s than in my present 30s. It isn't always clear which way that will go.

In ancient Sparta the cultural recommendation was for men to marry at 30, and women at 20. Men would train and live in barracks until 30, gaining life experience, becoming men, becoming tough, becoming leaders, to return home and marry a young, inexperienced, fertile, docile woman at 20. Both were in their prime. That's exactly how the system ought to be set up in my opinion. A man needs experience to get to his prime, a woman just gets to her prime by waiting long enough until she's 18-22 and if she's taken care of herself and has had a proper upbringing in what femininity is then tada, there your prime woman is. For a man much more is required, but that's fair since men are supposed to handle all the problems/stress/difficulties of life and the exernal world and protect the woman against it.

 

[Kitty Tantrum]

My own experience and perspective lends to believing that a 5-10 year gap makes the most "natural sense."

Similar-age pairing makes sense within systems that make sure young men grow up and mature quickly (so I can see how this could be an Orthodox teaching, because their teachings are not based on what humans tend to do when left to their own devices).

And there are simply very few advantageous pairings to be found in the modern system that pushes women to grow up really fast so they can become men, and encourages men to languish in extended childhood.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

And there are simply very few advantageous pairings to be found in the modern system that pushes women to grow up really fast so they can become men, and encourages men to languish in extended childhood.

It's probably a consequence of compulsory education. People outside one's immediate grade or school (give or take a year or so) seem weird.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

Well-known Orthodox figure Church of the Eternal Logos creator David Patrick Harry's girlfriend is 22 years old. He's 34. 12 year age gap.

Parents and everyone involved are happy with it - they prefer it this way and are encouraging it for reasons that are obvious to many. I would certainly be very supportive of my daughter marrying a successful Christian man like him with his head on his shoulders. When and if I have a daughter 18-22, I do NOT prefer her marrying a younger man. Late 20s minimum and ideally someone mid 30s.

I'm 34. 6ft. Athletic build. Good-looking. Make a quarter million a year. No kids. No health issues. No criminal record. Loads of practical life experience. Im easily in the top 10% of men. I didn't really feel like I had become a man and grounded in myself until I was 30, and that wasn't for lack of trying. It just naturally unfolded that way. My father and many of my friends also have the same sentiment.

I'm not going to settle for an older woman or career-centered woman, and certainly not someone overweight, with a bunch of tattoos, high body count, mouth like a sailor, a 'masculine/aggressive' attitude, etc. I want maximized feminine qualities. If you don't know what those are or you find it offensive to express them, you're part of the problem! Men and women have different roles!

I'm not writing this to be mean or bigoted or prideful or anything negative. This type of talk should be inspiring and humbling. People nowadays especially need to constantly be reminded of this reality with how corrupted the dating market is, and both men and women are to blame for perpetuating the state of the current dating market, but men as leaders need to step up and stop letting these bad ideas fester in favor of simping/lust.

Women will change their behavior if men have clearly defined preferences and work towards being worthy of them. If you want a patriarchy, act like a patriarch. If you want a brothel, act accordingly. We reap what we sow. Men try as best as you can to mirror Jesus. Women try your best to mirror Mary. These are our icons. Stop looking at celebrities as role models.

My wife doesn't need to work - I want her to focus on child-rearing and homemaking - and she should also want this otherwise we won't be in a relationship. I want an extremely feminine woman willing to submit to me. This isn't up for debate. She will know all this from the beginning. These are hard lines. It's not a matter of me being controlling - she is going to WANT this life or not. It's a prerequisite. Nothing will be forced.

Men in my percentile that are in their peak sexual market value prime are going to get females in their prime also and we can be very picky about our standards.

Open Panel: Who's to Blame For Modern Dating? with Rachel Wilson

#Logos #LogosRising #Christianity In this stream I am joined by author Rachel Wilson to discuss the state of male and female relationships and who is to bla...

www.youtube.com

 

[Blade Runner]

I'm not going to settle for an older woman or career-centered woman, and certainly not someone overweight, with a bunch of tattoos, high body count, mouth like a sailor, a 'masculine/aggressive' attitude, etc. I want maximized feminine qualities. If you don't know what those are or you find it offensive to express them, you're part of the problem! Men and women have different roles!

Neither would I. I'm older than you and I can look back at 35 with very similar stats as you, my man, and the truth is (this is even harder if you are orthodox and/or want someone of european descent, in America of course) it's already over unless someone does the work for you/combination of a high number of people to increase odds, or you hit the lottery. There are many reasons why this won't happen, I'm sad to say, and they outweigh the pros 99-1. The biggest is that in women's eyes, right or wrong, in this culture, you're too old. Laughable? Yes. Real on the ground? Of course. Women do all the social stuff, and men who are older aren't going to hook you up. Why? They like you are traditional, but competitive, and men with a dearth of female femininity in this country also, on average, hate other men getting younger women. I wish you the best of luck, but the culture has been sabotaged completely.

Men in my percentile that are in their peak sexual market value prime are going to get females in their prime also and we can be very picky about our standards.

They are going to seek them, and I agree with you, they should get ... but see above. The number of women that are even 6.5 and younger in the US that you can even meet, let alone marry, are unbelievably rare. For a guy that is over 6' with professional degree, 6 fig salary, and fitness near 99th % (not saying much in modern america, I know), it's even hard by late 20s when you are around all the career women. Add the fact that even for good women there are too many options and for men headaches left and right, and you'll also find that in 3 more years overseas was the only place, sadly, that there is even a shot.

People forget frequently that we are talking about marriage. This is another thing women, who aren't very good at analyzing, confound. That we "date" you means ... actually nothing big picture. Even though they might think it would, or should.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

Neither would I. I'm older than you and I can look back at 35 with very similar stats as you, my man, and the truth is (this is even harder if you are orthodox and/or want someone of european descent, in America of course) it's already over unless someone does the work for you/combination of a high number of people to increase odds, or you hit the lottery. There are many reasons why this won't happen, I'm sad to say, and they outweigh the pros 99-1. The biggest is that in women's eyes, right or wrong, in this culture, you're too old. Laughable? Yes. Real on the ground? Of course. Women do all the social stuff, and men who are older aren't going to hook you up. Why? They like you are traditional, but competitive, and men with a dearth of female femininity in this country also, on average, hate other men getting younger women. I wish you the best of luck, but the culture has been sabotaged completely.

They are going to seek them, and I agree with you, they should get ... but see above. The number of women that are even 6.5 and younger in the US that you can even meet, let alone marry, are unbelievably rare. For a guy that is over 6' with professional degree, 6 fig salary, and fitness near 99th % (not saying much in modern america, I know), it's even hard by late 20s when you are around all the career women. Add the fact that even for good women there are too many options and for men headaches left and right, and you'll also find that in 3 more years overseas was the only place, sadly, that there is even a shot.

People forget frequently that we are talking about marriage. This is another thing women, who aren't very good at analyzing, confound. That we "date" you means ... actually nothing big picture. Even though they might think it would, or should.

I agree. My chances are very slim and I realize my best bet is overseas. I've actually had discussions about this on other threads so I won't go deep into it.

But basically my plan is to trust in God's providence here for a few more years and see if I hit the lotto through the church network here in my state.

I have faith that this is a possibility. I'm not just sitting around hoping. I'm spreading the word in the right places to the right people. For example ladies like the president of our dioceses. I sit with them at coffee hour and they are all very aware I'm single and interested in marriage.

I've received a couple propositions already that weren't great and I politely declined to be set up. However it's still very early days for this process.

If necessary later on I will pack my bags, make my work passive by hiring someone else and going fully remote, take a huge salary cut, and start over in an Eastern European country or somewhere where I can use my teaching license again in an international school.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

I have faith that this is a possibility. I'm not just sitting around hoping. I'm spreading the word in the right places to the right people. For example ladies like the president of our dioceses. I sit with them at coffee hour and they are all very aware I'm single and interested in marriage.

I've received a couple propositions already that weren't great and I politely declined to be set up. However it's still very early days for this process.

Heh, I was on the female end of this for years. I think I had a really bad concept of dating because everyone was trying to set me up with their son/grandson/godson/nephew/accountant/seminarian/whatever (combined with me being a teenage girl with family problems and emotional issues), and their criteria is basically "he has a job and is alive"

Just do church social stuff and make friends. It's a really good vetting process, you get to know people outside of dates, etc. Not trying to be unnecessarily optimistic, but there you go LOL

 

[messaggera]

Heh, I was on the female end of this for years. I think I had a really bad concept of dating because everyone was trying to set me up with their son/grandson/godson/nephew/accountant/seminarian/whatever (combined with me being a teenage girl with family problems and emotional issues), and their criteria is basically "he has a job and is alive"

Just do church social stuff and make friends. It's a really good vetting process, you get to know people outside of dates, etc. Not trying to be unnecessarily optimistic, but there you go LOL