Plant-Based Diets?

porscheguy

Ostrich
One thing not mentioned here and largely ignored by most vegans:

“Eyes on the sides, run and hide. Eyes in front, ready to hunt.”

They’ll debate digestive length, teeth, etc, all day long. But like all other mammal predators, humans have forward facing eyes. We see a wide range of color as well. I guess the vegans think that is so we know what fruit is ripe?
 

jcardial

Woodpecker
porscheguy said:
One thing not mentioned here and largely ignored by most vegans:

“Eyes on the sides, run and hide. Eyes in front, ready to hunt.”

They’ll debate digestive length, teeth, etc, all day long. But like all other mammal predators, humans have forward facing eyes. We see a wide range of color as well. I guess the vegans think that is so we know what fruit is ripe?

By this theory gorillas should be predators with their forward facing eyes yet they eat ~20 kilos of fruits and vegetables per day and no meat. A far more powerful theory for the advantage of forward facing eyes in humans and our primate ancestors is vastly superior vision in forest and jungle environments cluttered by trees and leaves.

Close one eye and hold up a finger mimicking a branch that is blocking something distant in your field of view. Now open the other eye. "X-ray" vision and superior depth perception is vastly more important than total peripheral field of view when not seeing a predator behind something or misjudging the next branch resulted in an early death.
 

Johnnyvee

Ostrich
jcardial said:
porscheguy said:
One thing not mentioned here and largely ignored by most vegans:

“Eyes on the sides, run and hide. Eyes in front, ready to hunt.”

They’ll debate digestive length, teeth, etc, all day long. But like all other mammal predators, humans have forward facing eyes. We see a wide range of color as well. I guess the vegans think that is so we know what fruit is ripe?

By this theory gorillas should be predators with their forward facing eyes yet they eat ~20 kilos of fruits and vegetables per day and no meat. A far more powerful theory for the advantage of forward facing eyes in humans and our primate ancestors is vastly superior vision in forest and jungle environments cluttered by trees and leaves.

Close one eye and hold up a finger mimicking a branch that is blocking something distant in your field of view. Now open the other eye. "X-ray" vision and superior depth perception is vastly more important than total peripheral field of view when not seeing a predator behind something or misjudging the next branch resulted in an early death.

I agree as far as eyes go. That is not evidence of being hunters primarily. Complex question to answer. Jaws and teeth are not that indicative either, since we have high IQ and opposable thumbs, so we don`t use our jaws as weapons. Nor do we need to tear raw flesh from an animal either.

If you look at the digestive system however, there are some important things to notice. First of all we differ very radically from ruminants and hind-gut fermenters. No comparison there! But we are also somewhat different from other primates like chimps, gorillas and orangutans for example. Humans have a redundant appendix and caecum, which would otherwise aid in digesting plants. And we have a shorter digestive tract. All relative to size of course. Our digestive system is somewhere in between that of a gorilla and a carnivore like a dog. But really a bit more similar to a dog.

The expensive tissue hypothesis is definitely correct. We adapted ourselves to a higher protein and animal fat diet, and that allowed us to reduce the size of our metabolically expensive digestive system, and use that "spare" ATP to evolve a large brain instead.

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Human ancestors evolved most likely primate mostly frugivore/plant-eater to predominantly carnivore - at times 90%+ carnivore for hundreds of thousands of years. Obviously the remnants of previous digestive systems are there, but it would make sense why we do so badly with plants. We can eat them if we get at least some animal products, but the vegans actually taught us a lot, because the full monty of plant-eating produced so many valuable data-sets:


Vegetarianism does not come even close in terms of health destruction. Now as ever more details emerge with regards to plant toxicity, then the situation becomes even more clear.

Still - veganism and all kinds of plant-and-cockroach-shit-foods have the full support of the globo-homos at least when it comes to pushing it upon the useless eaters, so it will be full-on relentless battle.

I fully expect them to win in certain countries making meat super-expensive, people getting weaker, shorter and sicker just as in the communist times - with some countries showing the middle finger to the globo-homos and remaining strong and healthy.
 

porscheguy

Ostrich
Gorillas also eat their own feces.
Gorillas consume 10-15% of their body weight daily. This is not physically possible for the majority of humans. The most I’ve seen are people who do mukbang videos and at the most they get in 6-8% of their body weight.
Gorillas have a cecum and a fermenting colon many times larger than a human for the purpose of breaking down plant material. A human has an appendix which is considered obsolete.
A gorilla may spend up to 50% of its waking hours consuming food. Carnivorous humans can obtain full nutrition in about 20 minutes.
 
< And funnily enough ex-vegans report on being obsessed with food, hours being spent preparing and eating food constantly, then being hungry again after 2 hours. I have heard so often about vegans having to plan even 4-5 hours trips because they would be hungry again.

And some vegan doctors have even claimed that human-shit-fertilized vegetables are an alternative to B12 consumption. So they advocate a return to the glorious Gorilla lifestyle of eating their own feces, spending hours a day chomping down on greens and having small primitive brains. Because vegans have also been tested and their brains were shrinking:

https://brainworldmagazine.com/your-brain-on-a-diet/

A study at Oxford University in 2008 found that people on a meat-free diet are six times as likely to suffer brain shrinkage.


Though that re-adaptation process would take hundreds of thousands of years for the few surviving vegans out there. The malnourished vegans are funnily enough the ones who don't eat processed carbs and lots of plant oils. Though the fat vegan who is subsisting on a diet of deep-fried vegetables and Oreos is getting the same lack of nutrients than the skeletons above.
 

Seeker79

Kingfisher
I don't know about healthy people but I've seen two uncles who suffered heart attack and have type 2 diabetes make miraculous recoveries after going on plant based diets. Trust me, they didn't enjoy it but it was basically necessary to keep living. Both have lost weight and basically eliminated symptoms of their diabetes. Lifelong non smokers but they ate a normal American diet for 40+ years before suffering heart disease.
 
monsquid said:
I don't know about healthy people but I've seen two uncles who suffered heart attack and have type 2 diabetes make miraculous recoveries after going on plant based diets. Trust me, they didn't enjoy it but it was basically necessary to keep living. Both have lost weight and basically eliminated symptoms of their diabetes. Lifelong non smokers but they ate a normal American diet for 40+ years before suffering heart disease.

They had certain diets in controlled hospital environments - low-fat, low-meat, plant-based vs high-fat, low carb. Guess which diet won out in almost 100 of all those tests?

It was the high-animal-fat low carb diet. None of them had notable amounts of plant seed oils and sugars, so your family cutting out that likely had this effect. Would have been better to keep eating meat while omitting the toxic stuff that they avoided anyway.
 

flanders

Robin
Most high fiber slave diets end up being a caloric deficit to the point of being a modified fast since it's basically impossible to chew and swallow more than 1200-1500 calories of tasteless wallboard greens and grains per day, optimistically. You will hit a wall, a "fiber wall" preventing more intake due to massive bloat.

Plants had nothing to do with it. Your uncles could have improved their conditions more rapidly and lost more weight if they just ate nothing instead and went on a long fast.

Anybody reading this, if you're gonna vegan, treat it for what it is. It's not a diet. Its not lifestyle. It's a hypocaloric modified fast. Worse than actual fasting because it will cause and worsen deficiencies, unlike fasting. Go be a vegan for a month (if that), lose a little weight, then go back to whatever you were doing before.
 

jcardial

Woodpecker
flanders said:
Most high fiber slave diets end up being a caloric deficit to the point of being a modified fast since it's basically impossible to chew and swallow more than 1200-1500 calories of tasteless wallboard greens and grains per day, optimistically. You will hit a wall, a "fiber wall" preventing more intake due to massive bloat.

Plants had nothing to do with it. Your uncles could have improved their conditions more rapidly and lost more weight if they just ate nothing instead and went on a long fast.

Anybody reading this, if you're gonna vegan, treat it for what it is. It's not a diet. Its not lifestyle. It's a hypocaloric modified fast. Worse than actual fasting because it will cause and worsen deficiencies, unlike fasting. Go be a vegan for a month (if that), lose a little weight, then go back to whatever you were doing before.

It is unsubstantiated that starvation is an inevitable outcome of veganism if it is done remotely well. Even Chris Masterjohn, a PhD in nutritional science who is gung ho for eating nose to tail concedes that some people will thrive on a vegan diet. Not get by or starve, but thrive. Your fringe theory also fails to explain athletes and body builders who have eaten vegan for several years or decades and have been able to compete at elite levels.

It is impossible to build muscle without a significant caloric surplus, and plenty of athletes are able to do it 100% plant based (which for many necessitates 3k+ calories per day contrary to your imagined 1.5k per day ceiling). I don't doubt that there are people with unfavorable genetics and/or poor nutritional knowledge who will find a way to not get enough calories or nutrients. However, the idea that no one can thrive on it is a weak conspiracy theory.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Well, we (the Orthodox) just ended the month-and-a-half-ish long Advent fast, so I was vegan the whole time aside from Thanksgiving and one minor slip with some parmesan on a salad. I felt super healthy, as I always do during these fasts, didn't get sick (while everyone around me was getting various colds and flus), and put on some muscle during that time as well with a strict gym regimen. I took multivitamins the entire time and will continue doing so, but I'm relieved it's over and I've already added eggs and cheese back into my diet. I learned during the fast that I actually prefer Cashew/Almond milk to dairy milk anyway so I'm sticking with that, and I'm probably going to keep my meat intake to one or two relatively small portions per week. I feel a lot healthier than I did eating things like burgers every week so I'm pretty happy with this balance.

That video above is rough; they all look sickly and on the verge of passing out.
 
< Vegan diets are fasts - not only the Orthodox, but Hindus do that too for 40 days. Though even a 40 day water fast as reported by Jesus would have been fine, but it's obviously a bit tougher to do.

As a fast veganism is fine. Many ex-vegans report this as the "honeymoon phase", where they got rid of the toxic food they ate before, their bodies absorb generally less calories and the toxicity of the plants does not manifest yet. That phase lasts from 3 months to 3-4 years depending on the genetics and the nutrients storage you had before. If you are an underfed 18yo athlete with low-body-fat, then you might feel immense issues after 4 months. If you are an obese sedentary bloke, then it might take years before the nutrients in your body have been depleted. And after a time aside from the deficiencies the plant toxicity is exacerbated unless you pick a special low-oxalate low-lectin low-phytoestrogen vegan diet with very few options.

That is when the issues suddenly show up - vegan sunken-eye-syndrome, malnourishment, ulcers in the mouth, digestion issues, inability to make any gains. If there are gains in the first time, then they are built by the nutrient and fat reserves built before.

It's the same with people who have had chronic issues "solved" by a vegan diet. Their skin condition or issue was gone for a while, they thought that this is the shit, but then when the deficiencies and plant toxicities kicked in, then all the old and new conditions came back strong.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
MichaelWitcoff said:
Well, we (the Orthodox) just ended the month-and-a-half-ish long Advent fast, so I was vegan the whole time aside from Thanksgiving and one minor slip with some parmesan on a salad. I felt super healthy, as I always do during these fasts, didn't get sick (while everyone around me was getting various colds and flus), and put on some muscle during that time as well with a strict gym regimen. I took multivitamins the entire time and will continue doing so, but I'm relieved it's over and I've already added eggs and cheese back into my diet. I learned during the fast that I actually prefer Cashew/Almond milk to dairy milk anyway so I'm sticking with that, and I'm probably going to keep my meat intake to one or two relatively small portions per week. I feel a lot healthier than I did eating things like burgers every week so I'm pretty happy with this balance.

That video above is rough; they all look sickly and on the verge of passing out.

Can I get a little boob action before they disappear again?

No homo. :laugh:
 

jcardial

Woodpecker
Simeon_Strangelight said:
https://brainworldmagazine.com/your-brain-on-a-diet/

A study at Oxford University in 2008 found that people on a meat-free diet are six times as likely to suffer brain shrinkage.

Simeon further outs himself as a purveyor of misinformation. This is presumably what happens when you use amateurish blogs and carnivore Youtube channels as your source material on nutritional science. That 2008 Oxford study didn't even consider the diets or nutrition of the 107 nursing home elderly people (aged 61 to 87) that were MRI scanned for brain volume over five years, so as far as you or anyone knows, none of those very old people were eating a meat-free diet. The overwhelming majority were probably eating meat if they were anything like the general population.

Since this was an uncontrolled cohort study with a very small sample size of very old people it naturally follows that the conclusions are fairly limited in scope and vulnerable to major confounds (e.g. overall dietary intake and digestive pathologies typical of the elderly to name a few). The study itself concedes, "However, as with all cohort studies in contrast to randomized trials, we cannot exclude that residual confounding, due to unknown factors, might account for the findings."

The study found that the tertile of elderly with the most brain loss after five years had B12 levels of 300 pmol/L (275-329) while the top and second tertile with less brain volume loss had B12 levels of 368 pmol/L (336-391). To put this in perspective, ~100 pmol/L is a borderline deficient level where doctors would look at more robust indicators of B12 deficiency like methylmalonic acid and total homocysteine which incidentally were also measured in the study (neither of which showed significant correlations to brain volume loss when controlling for basic factors like age, sex, education, blood pressure etc).

Making any extrapolations, let alone far reaching ones, from this type of study makes no sense at all. These types of studies are generally meant to decide where future research is in order and anyone trying to use them to draw sweeping conclusions outs themselves as not understanding the fundamental limitations of a small sample cohort study.
 
This black ex-vegan has the best vids of the crazy shit that vegans say:


Some black tribes ate some tubers. I don't think that our digestive system across all human races is that far apart frankly. All the data points out that our digestive system is relatively similar - none of us are allergic to our core food meat, we at best differ at best how we digest milk or how much we can stomach and slightly better digest plant-foods.
 

flanders

Robin
jcardial said:
flanders said:
Most high fiber slave diets end up being a caloric deficit to the point of being a modified fast since it's basically impossible to chew and swallow more than 1200-1500 calories of tasteless wallboard greens and grains per day, optimistically. You will hit a wall, a "fiber wall" preventing more intake due to massive bloat.

Plants had nothing to do with it. Your uncles could have improved their conditions more rapidly and lost more weight if they just ate nothing instead and went on a long fast.

Anybody reading this, if you're gonna vegan, treat it for what it is. It's not a diet. Its not lifestyle. It's a hypocaloric modified fast. Worse than actual fasting because it will cause and worsen deficiencies, unlike fasting. Go be a vegan for a month (if that), lose a little weight, then go back to whatever you were doing before.

It is unsubstantiated that starvation is an inevitable outcome of veganism if it is done remotely well. Even Chris Masterjohn, a PhD in nutritional science who is gung ho for eating nose to tail concedes that some people will thrive on a vegan diet. Not get by or starve, but thrive. Your fringe theory also fails to explain athletes and body builders who have eaten vegan for several years or decades and have been able to compete at elite levels.

It is impossible to build muscle without a significant caloric surplus, and plenty of athletes are able to do it 100% plant based (which for many necessitates 3k+ calories per day contrary to your imagined 1.5k per day ceiling). I don't doubt that there are people with unfavorable genetics and/or poor nutritional knowledge who will find a way to not get enough calories or nutrients. However, the idea that no one can thrive on it is a weak conspiracy theory.

Are you currently vegan? If so, how long?
 

jcardial

Woodpecker
flanders said:
jcardial said:
flanders said:
Most high fiber slave diets end up being a caloric deficit to the point of being a modified fast since it's basically impossible to chew and swallow more than 1200-1500 calories of tasteless wallboard greens and grains per day, optimistically. You will hit a wall, a "fiber wall" preventing more intake due to massive bloat.

Plants had nothing to do with it. Your uncles could have improved their conditions more rapidly and lost more weight if they just ate nothing instead and went on a long fast.

Anybody reading this, if you're gonna vegan, treat it for what it is. It's not a diet. Its not lifestyle. It's a hypocaloric modified fast. Worse than actual fasting because it will cause and worsen deficiencies, unlike fasting. Go be a vegan for a month (if that), lose a little weight, then go back to whatever you were doing before.

It is unsubstantiated that starvation is an inevitable outcome of veganism if it is done remotely well. Even Chris Masterjohn, a PhD in nutritional science who is gung ho for eating nose to tail concedes that some people will thrive on a vegan diet. Not get by or starve, but thrive. Your fringe theory also fails to explain athletes and body builders who have eaten vegan for several years or decades and have been able to compete at elite levels.

It is impossible to build muscle without a significant caloric surplus, and plenty of athletes are able to do it 100% plant based (which for many necessitates 3k+ calories per day contrary to your imagined 1.5k per day ceiling). I don't doubt that there are people with unfavorable genetics and/or poor nutritional knowledge who will find a way to not get enough calories or nutrients. However, the idea that no one can thrive on it is a weak conspiracy theory.

Are you currently vegan? If so, how long?

By your standards I have been starving/fasting for almost a decade. Since I have no problem putting on or maintaining muscle mass and no illnesses or deficiencies to speak of, the only two options seem to be either your theory is wrong or I have achieved the impossible.
 
< There are a few odd genetic freaks who make it 10 years. After 10 years sunken eyes are a given, mental deterioration is normal. The other option are massive supplementation - some of it animal-based.


Some get the sunken, fish-eyes only later, but almost all of the long-term ones have it. Or they look like ghouls that are walking skeletons.

I heard even one "vegan pope" say: "I eat vegan except for once or twice a week meat socially." Sure buddy - those exceptions are keeping you alive.

Most of those who say they were 20 year vegan were so with breaks.

No one is thriving on a vegan diet past a certain point and if you eat raw oyesters almost daily, then you are a pesceterian. Though I agree that it shouldn't harm vegan logic, but vegan logic is bullshit. Because free-range eggs or local goat- and cow-milk shouldn't harm anyone either - certainly less than the killing fields of big aggro of beans, wheat, corn and soy. But the destinction is clearly made among their religion.

Some of the epitome of malnutrition 6 participants here are vegan long-term gurus:


like Anna Maria Clement with severe sunken eyes and looking like a corpse. Ex-vegans who hung out with hundreds of vegans in some tropical communities (as many do after a time), they say that the people who were the shortest time vegan were generally the most healthy. Every second guy was detoxing or on some kind of cleanse or something because of some condition - usually blaming meat consumption after being on veganism for 5+ years.

Thanks - there are by now thousands and thousands of anecdotes to choose from - and the unhealthy vegan ones by far blow the "thriving ones" out of the water. When the colagen disappears and a walking sunken eyed Walking Dead actor appears, then no one can claim any thriving status.
 

Lone Wolf

Sparrow
Orthodox
The claim of whole plant based diet to maintain muscle mass is false because the quality of plant protein is poor. Vegan athlethes heavily supplement with pea protein and soy isolates, along with a ton of other supplements. Their powder plant based diet looks like this. If you love giving money to pharmaceutical companies, be my guest.

There are always outliers, like the example of a 20 year vegan below, whose microbiome can probably extract protein better. But by that time she already suffered permanent damage to her bones.
 
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