Plant-Based Diets?

DeWoken

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
@JayR , congratulations on turning your health around! :)

Dr. Essylstyn has that kind of annoying-mumble
voice that vegans get. (It must be because they're persecuted! :sad:). And why does it sound like there's no furniture in the room when I say his name out loud? ;)

The real best reasons to go vegan.

A theory put forth by Gatis (Sv3rige/goatis) is that when people eat plant-based their body thinks that they ran out of animal food and is putting them into a hunting mode (adrenaline release). They want to kill something to eat it, therefore a sort of hyper aggression takes shape in their mind while their body is cannibalizing itself. The perfect food for the human body is, of course, the human body. This hyper aggression is clearly visible at regular intervals in Leftists and veg*ns. The theory goes that the veg*n diet is a type of fasting, with similar results in the short and long term. You definitely can lose weight on it, and carrying around extra fat is in itself harmful, so you might feel better in the short term.

I'm reading through the manosphere-anti-veg*n thread but I have a hard time focusing on this stuff since news got really heavy, six months ago.

One aspect that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the satiety factor. We eat for the wrong reasons so often in Clown World, and many foods are laced with poisons. Our bodies are befuddled and no longer able to tell when enough is enough. As with any machine – biological or otherwise – sometimes less is more: too much gas in your car overloads certain mechanisms, and if you keep pouring you might turn into a protesting Buddhist monk. Too much oil in your crankcase is no good either. It can be hard to find the sweet spot with food amount and we all have habits that have grown and calcified. Going veg*n has the benefit of giving people a chance to reexamine their habits and maybe get back in touch with some of their body's natural signals.

And the other major issue that has been touched on in that manosphere thread is the meat quality. Saying “meat is the problem” is like saying “the problem of white supremacy is plain to see when one looks at how Western countries go around the world blowing shit up and telling people how to live their lives, while pillaging all the resources”. And I think we agree that while there are some truths in that second statement the real problem isn't White supremacy. Canard alert!

I haven't dug into this guy's sources but I was proud of myself for being able to dig this article again after about a year :)

Hong Kong: World Longest Life Expectancy, Highest Per Capita Meat Consumption


Let's see which country has the longest life expectancy:

The Chinese people in Hong Kong have highest per capita meat consumption in the world, they have world's longest life expectancy (see United Nations 2015 data), their health index is among the best in the world! Japan and South Korea have very high per capita fish and seafood consumption. Japanese consume the most eggs per capita in the world!

Life expectancy at birth (years), UN World Population Prospects 2015

1) Hong Kong 83.74 years (world longest)
2) Japan 83.31 years
3) Italy 82.84 years
7) Spain 82.28 years
14) South Korea 81.43
42) USA 78.88
World Average 71.4

Let's see what the countries with world's longest life spans eat:

The UN data shown below came from National Geographic website, article: what the world eats

Average daily total meat products (livestock+seafood) consumption, percentage of total food intake by weight per person:
Hong Kong 32% (world highest)
Japan 18%
USA 14%
South Korea 16%
World 9%
 
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JayR

Woodpecker
I have to say, I really take issue with statements like these.

"Directly correlated"... in other words, no proof of a causal relationship to be found, nor will there ever be. It's a bit disingenuous to not add this little disclaimer when stating things like this. I mean, ok, there's a correlation, but it's unknown whether the meat and dairy is the cause of the observed health problems. Don't you think it's important to, you know, maybe mention that?

I didn't mention it because all the competing studies and statistics have been posted in this or other vegan threads already. Yes, I could have posted a link to the China Study again, and wait for all the vegan haters to post YouTube clips from their favorite expert about why that study is flawed, wrong, etc. Around and around we go.

You said you were vegan since 2017? I could be wrong here, but I imagine if you are 100% vegan, it's only a matter of time before you start running into gut problems, skin problems, dental problems, etc... There's a reason so many people abandon veganism and if it was half as good as vegans claim, we simply wouldn't see this happening. Why would anyone stop being vegan if it was so healthy and made them feel so great? It just doesn't add up.

Yes, I've been 100% WFPB/no-oil/no-nuts/no avocado since September 2017 (vegans don't eat honey, which I do, so I'm not vegan by strict definition, it's just easier to say "vegan" than "Whole Food Plant-Based"). My gut, skin, and teeth are all just fine, and my doctor is thrilled with my LDL levels. If I was going to have any of the health problems you mention, I think they'd have manifested by now, three years in, but I'll keep you posted. Dispelling the myth that veganism leads to emaciation and tooth loss and various other maladies one reason I bother posting here. It just ain't true.

Why do people quit being vegan? I don't know -- all I know is it's working for me and I have no intention of returning to eating meat/dairy.

Anyway, I hope I'm not being too much of a jerk here.

No worries.
 

R.G.Camara

Kingfisher
Hey folks, I just watched a documentary called Diet Fiction. It was basically vegan propaganda, but they made what seemed like solid points. I've also noticed over both of the past two years that during the 47 days of Lent/Holy Week, when I'm vegan for the entire course of that season, I inevitably feel great and don't get so much as a sniffle - but then when I go back to a regular diet, I start getting colds and feeling full and bloated again. I haven't done that kind of diet long-term though, so I was curious if anyone here has experimented with a long-term plant-based diet and if so, what the results were like for you.

Just for reference, I'm 32, about 6 feet tall, 177 pounds, with a normal BMI and all my lab and test results show me being in the right range for all the various things people track.

Vegans, like other folks really into their diets, tend to be healthier mostly because they are focused on diet and other health issues. If you're constantly monitoring your food intake and vitamin intake, you tend to make sure you get the most healthy choices. This applies to vegans, vegetarians, and yet also, conversely, paleo or low-carb folks. All of them tend to be healthier because they are so focused on making it work.

Personally, I try to do paleo/low-carb. I get fat when I focus on other things and stop paying attention to my diet. But paleo/low-carb is much healthier, in my research, than vegan/vegetarian. Vegan/vegetarians need dietary supplements (B-12 is the big one) to make up for their lack of meat intake. Paleo/low-carb need only add a few more vegetables or a slice of bread if their diet is lacking in something. And I lose fat quicker when on paleo.

Watch the documentary Fathead for a great intro to paleo/low-carb.
 

DeWoken

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
...
Yes, I've been 100% WFPB/no-oil/no-nuts/no avocado since September 2017 (vegans don't eat honey, which I do, so I'm not vegan by strict definition, it's just easier to say "vegan" than "Whole Food Plant-Based"). My gut, skin, and teeth are all just fine, and my doctor is thrilled with my LDL levels. If I was going to have any of the health problems you mention, I think they'd have manifested by now, three years in, but I'll keep you posted. Dispelling the myth that veganism leads to emaciation and tooth loss and various other maladies one reason I bother posting here. It just ain't true.
...

This is interesting. I'm not sure what will happen to the body with very low fat intake, but I'll get back to you. We must remember that cell walls are basically made of fat, as are the brain and the myelin sheath around nerves. Cells get old and die - what happens if the raw materials to replace them are not present?

The tests your doctor does (at least his interpretation of them) don't mean squat, unfortunately.
(edit: I mean, I am not a doctor or health expert... :boring: )

https://www.brightstorm.com/science/biology/parts-of-a-cell/cell-membrane-cell-wall/
Cell walls are only found in plant cells and are used primarily to create structure, but cell membranes are found in all cells. The bulk of the membrane is composed of a double layer of lipids called the lipid bilayer. Inside the bilayer there is a layer of cholesterol to keep the membrane fluid. Imbedded in the membrane are various proteins which provide channels for specific molecules to pass through, making the membrane semi-permeable.

https://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis/myelin-sheath-facts
Myelin sheaths are sleeves of fatty tissue that protect your nerve cells. These cells are part of your central nervous system, which carries messages back and forth between your brain and the rest of your body.
 
@JayR
What about the low CAC scores that carnivores are getting? Getting a zero on a diet that’s supposed to wreck your heart health contradicts everything the medical community has said about meat.
AmericanHeartAssociation said:
Also known as a CAC test, it involves a type of rapid X-ray called a CT scan. It takes cross-sectional images of the vessels that supply blood to the heart muscle, to check for the buildup of calcified plaque, which is composed of fats, cholesterol, calcium and other substances in the blood.
If this is true, carnivores and the like should all have scores above 100, which means satins. Also note that this has nothing to do with the calcium in the diet. So low calcium intake is not the reason.
AmericanHeartAssociation said:
This calcium is different from the calcium in bones and isn't related to too much calcium in a diet.
 
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The Resilient

Ostrich
Orthodox
Trace minerals for a kick, Iodine, Manganese, Selenium, Zinc, Boron, Sulfate, Magnesium, Chloride, Potassium.
For regular drinking usually not much because I do three different types of distilled water.
For exercising in heat or cold, add cayenne pepper, ginger, and black pepper.
Is there an all in one tablet you can add for this ?
 
Is there an all in one tablet you can add for this ?

Look up shilajit, best brands come from Siberia, I would not trust Indian or Tibetan production. It is basically ancient vegetation that got trapped underground. When you take that is the same as eating vegetables, 5,000 years ago before civilization (farming and now industrial farming and pollution) depleted trace minerals from the soil. Steroid companies add shilajit to their synthetic steroids to provide the building blocks(trace minerals) needed by the body. I don't recommend taking steroids and I abhor the idea entirely.
 
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Nice topic guys. I don't believe in plant based diets. Plants are supplementary and should not be the main source of food. But the argument against modern meat can be extended to vegetables. Vegetables from super markets, even the ones labeled organic are all depleted in nutrients (very hallow) and polluted with chemicals. If anyone has eaten outside of United States, they would have noticed that the meat, vegetables and fruits are a lot more tastier. Food in Europe is less dependent on additives and various sauces and barbecue, like American cuisine, which is essentially perfumed low quality food.

The problem is not the meat, it's the quality. Beef should be grass fed but even the few farms that do raise pasture based cattle are not using the right genetics, they are using mainstream cows like Angus which have been bread to grow fast and need grain. We need to eat animals that are eating naturally and genetically unaltered.
 

Papist

Woodpecker
I didn't mention it because all the competing studies and statistics have been posted in this or other vegan threads already. Yes, I could have posted a link to the China Study again, and wait for all the vegan haters to post YouTube clips from their favorite expert about why that study is flawed, wrong, etc. Around and around we go.



Yes, I've been 100% WFPB/no-oil/no-nuts/no avocado since September 2017 (vegans don't eat honey, which I do, so I'm not vegan by strict definition, it's just easier to say "vegan" than "Whole Food Plant-Based"). My gut, skin, and teeth are all just fine, and my doctor is thrilled with my LDL levels. If I was going to have any of the health problems you mention, I think they'd have manifested by now, three years in, but I'll keep you posted. Dispelling the myth that veganism leads to emaciation and tooth loss and various other maladies one reason I bother posting here. It just ain't true.

Why do people quit being vegan? I don't know -- all I know is it's working for me and I have no intention of returning to eating meat/dairy.



No worries.
I'm genuinely interested in the WFPB diet, especially since I have heard great things about the Hallelujah Diet. Currently I'm basically pescetarian, having last eaten meat at a Burn's Supper (25 January) and before that on Christmas Day.

I have never particularly liked the taste of meat, and I would prefer not to eat meat if I could as I don't like the thought of animal slaughter. However, I am also concerned about eating too many lectins; phytoestrogens in soy; and the relatively recent consumption of Quorn. I am starting to lift weights, so I will be increasing my protein consumption and I'm planning to eat organic chicken, sardines, some salmon and eggs for half of my protein. However the other half will come from Garden of Life's vegan meal, I think. What do you eat for protein - are you not concerned about lectins? Have you tried Quorn?
 

Againstallodds

Robin
Orthodox
Why be so restrictive? I really don't get the fascination with cutting out food groups. It's like people just cannot accept that a balanced diet works because they cannot control cravings. Just avoid all processed food.
 

JayR

Woodpecker
I'm genuinely interested in the WFPB diet, especially since I have heard great things about the Hallelujah Diet. Currently I'm basically pescetarian, having last eaten meat at a Burn's Supper (25 January) and before that on Christmas Day.

I have never particularly liked the taste of meat, and I would prefer not to eat meat if I could as I don't like the thought of animal slaughter. However, I am also concerned about eating too many lectins; phytoestrogens in soy; and the relatively recent consumption of Quorn. I am starting to lift weights, so I will be increasing my protein consumption and I'm planning to eat organic chicken, sardines, some salmon and eggs for half of my protein. However the other half will come from Garden of Life's vegan meal, I think. What do you eat for protein - are you not concerned about lectins? Have you tried Quorn?
Well, if you're eating chicken, salmon, and eggs, you've chosen some high-quality animal proteins, but you're not eating the WFPB diet. Anyway...

Even if you are trying to add muscle in the gym, you shouldn't need to worry about getting sufficient protein if you're eating a wide variety of plant foods, especially beans, grains, and dark greens. For some reason people are obsessed with getting enough protein, but have you ever known anybody who was diagnosed with a protein deficiency?

0RjHuz1.jpg


That said, I do eat a banana + pea protein + flaxseed (Omega-3s) shake every morning for breakfast -- not for the protein, just because I like it and it's a convenient way to get calories, which can be a challenge on WFPB if you're hitting it hard in the gym.

Not concerned about lectins or the phytoestrogens. I adopted the WFPB diet strictly for heart health reasons after getting a diagnosis, and none of my reading or doctors warned against lectins or phytoestrogens.

I never tried Quorn, but my understanding is that it contains oil, which I do not eat (oil is not a whole food).
 

Papist

Woodpecker
Well, if you're eating chicken, salmon, and eggs, you've chosen some high-quality animal proteins, but you're not eating the WFPB diet. Anyway...

Even if you are trying to add muscle in the gym, you shouldn't need to worry about getting sufficient protein if you're eating a wide variety of plant foods, especially beans, grains, and dark greens. For some reason people are obsessed with getting enough protein, but have you ever known anybody who was diagnosed with a protein deficiency?

0RjHuz1.jpg


That said, I do eat a banana + pea protein + flaxseed (Omega-3s) shake every morning for breakfast -- not for the protein, just because I like it and it's a convenient way to get calories, which can be a challenge on WFPB if you're hitting it hard in the gym.

Not concerned about lectins or the phytoestrogens. I adopted the WFPB diet strictly for heart health reasons after getting a diagnosis, and none of my reading or doctors warned against lectins or phytoestrogens.

I never tried Quorn, but my understanding is that it contains oil, which I do not eat (oil is not a whole food).

I did say I was interested in the WFPB diet, not that I ate one. However, I do believe it is healthier. I am concerned about lectins as I have psoriasis, which I believe is indicative of a leaky gut. That said, I have decided to get around 50% of my protein from two servings per day of the vegan 'meal' supplement I mentioned earlier. I will also be eating plenty of broccoli, spinach and kale.

I believe by cutting out red meats and getting around 50% of my animal protein from fish sources, with only one or two servings of organic chicken a week, I shouldn't be doing my heart too much harm.

Mike Tyson and Arnie are now vegans, I believe, so I don't doubt that the science is correct. If I didn't suffer from an autoimmune disease I'd definitely be looking to go WFPB, or fully pescetarian.
 

Max Roscoe

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
when I'm vegan for the entire course of that season, I inevitably feel great and don't get so much as a sniffle - but then when I go back to a regular diet, I start getting colds and feeling full and bloated again.
I suspect that's something related to dairy, and specifically certain kinds, or more likely, low quality factory farmed dairy.

I cut way back on dairy a LONG time ago after coming across this website, notmilk.com (during the milk industry's "Got Milk" marketing craze.) A lot of the reasons to cut back is the huge amounts of puss, white blood cells, fecal matter, chemicals, antibiotics, etc. that are present in factory farmed American dairy from cows hooked up to machines 18 hours a day. I love cheese here and there, and ice cream as a desert, but I gave up drinking glasses of milk a long time ago.

The guy does make the point that it's odd to drink the milk of another species, and cow milk is designed to turn a 50 pound calf into a 1200 pound heiffer, and why would you want to ingest that? It makes a bit of sense to me. But I think in moderation dairy is ok, though probably not something really great for you. Where possible get organic or local or Amish or raw dairy.

Anyway, try cutting out the dairy but not the meats and see if you have the same feeling.

Incidentally, factory farming of meat is also a huge problem. I invariably have vivid nightmares after eating certain meats. I mostly eat fish, but tried a new brisket the other day and had 2 really bad nightmares. I really only get nightmares after eating factory farmed meats, and it kind of creeps me out, like the suffering and pain of the animals is latent in the hormones I am ingesting.
 

Knight.of.Logos

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
Anybody ever look into the Pegan diet as described by Dr. Mark Hyman?

I've been following this diet for a few years despite only recently hearing of that term. Basically it is just no processed food, and some meals are totally vegan and some have meat (with maybe some veggies to the side). I feel great doing this, as I do believe there are benefits to meat and veggies. Dairy we should cut out unless we can get raw dairy, which is difficult to do for most people. I admit sometimes I buy grass fed cheese (unfortunately it is globohomogenized) and organic heavy cream (also globohomogenized) for my coffee, but I try to be minimal with it. "Extreme" diets are not good long term, whether all vegan or all carnivore, but may have benefits short term.
 

Papist

Woodpecker
Anybody ever look into the Pegan diet as described by Dr. Mark Hyman?

I've been following this diet for a few years despite only recently hearing of that term. Basically it is just no processed food, and some meals are totally vegan and some have meat (with maybe some veggies to the side). I feel great doing this, as I do believe there are benefits to meat and veggies. Dairy we should cut out unless we can get raw dairy, which is difficult to do for most people. I admit sometimes I buy grass fed cheese (unfortunately it is globohomogenized) and organic heavy cream (also globohomogenized) for my coffee, but I try to be minimal with it. "Extreme" diets are not good long term, whether all vegan or all carnivore, but may have benefits short term.

No, I'd never heard of that! That's pretty much the diet I'd like to follow, except I would avoid red meat too. Thanks.
 

delabeaux

Chicken
Nutrition is like politics, such a triggering topic. I'm under the impression, as a healthcare worker, that nutrition effects everyone differently, just like medications do. What works for me (a whole foods, plant based diet), make not work for the next Joe down the road... people have reported getting very ill on every type of diet. For me, my strong familial history of heart disease and death for young men lead me to want to find something that worked. At 29, my Dr. wanted to put me on a blood pressure med and a cholesterol med. I wanted to try something else because meds are for life. I tried the DASH diet, no change. I tried the vitamin B option, with no effect other than body wide flushing. I found Dr. Esselstyn by happenstance and have it a try. 50 lbs lighter, normaltensive now, (I went from 150/90 average to 110/70 average), norocholesteremic (330 average to 110 average total). My Dr. said whatever I'm doing, to keep doing it... For me, this has worked for the last 10 years.
 
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