Powerlifting

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
I've never read any Riptoe or listened to any of his programs. Unless I misread it, the quote said that physical strength is the most important thing in life, with no qualification that he was actually talking about sports. That would be less insane and stupid, but still demonstrably false, except for sports like powerlifting. I'd much rather be a great surfer or fighter than a great powerlifter. Strength is certainly important in surfing and fighting but far from the most important thing. Having a typical powerlifter's body would actually be a disadvantage in surfing and arguably also in many types of fighting.
Generality always lead to caveats, but he is talking about for physical existence and in sports absolute strength is the key element for success and longevity in both sport and life...

This mentality is what the dynamo club in Soviet Russia believed also when the took their athletes and developed the conjugate system. (Not what Rip does at all)

Strength and weight gain are not the same. Strength display is a product of neural efficiency combined with muscle mass and technique. Regarding fighting... All of the MMA guys train, many use a conjugate system, but ALL of them weight train.

Strength is measured in velocity.

Of course having a 900 lb squat doesn't mean you'll be a great boxer, but it does mean you'll be able to have better neural effeicencyfor delivering punches provided you have the technique

If you put 11 strong kids on the field who are playing Football and all of them can deadlift 500 and put 11 weak kids on the field who all deadlift 225, the 225 team is gonna get smashed.

So yes, strength is not a factor in Chess... But its importance in sport and physical display is what determines the top provided that technique is sound.
 

bucky

Ostrich
Generality always lead to caveats, but he is talking about for physical existence and in sports absolute strength is the key element for success and longevity in both sport and life...

This mentality is what the dynamo club in Soviet Russia believed also when the took their athletes and developed the conjugate system. (Not what Rip does at all)

Strength and weight gain are not the same. Strength display is a product of neural efficiency combined with muscle mass and technique. Regarding fighting... All of the MMA guys train, many use a conjugate system, but ALL of them weight train.

Strength is measured in velocity.

Of course having a 900 lb squat doesn't mean you'll be a great boxer, but it does mean you'll be able to have better neural effeicencyfor delivering punches provided you have the technique

If you put 11 strong kids on the field who are playing Football and all of them can deadlift 500 and put 11 weak kids on the field who all deadlift 225, the 225 team is gonna get smashed.

So yes, strength is not a factor in Chess... But its importance in sport and physical display is what determines the top provided that technique is sound.
Chess dig noted, but that's not at all what I was talking about and you know it. Although as an aside, if you ever spend any time in Russia, you'll see that Russians very much consider chess a sport and cannot be convinced otherwise. I don't get it either.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "absolute strength." If you're trying to argue that maxing your bench, squat, and dead lift is the most important factor for success in, say, surfing, soccer, or baseball, that's obviously ridiculous. On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that anyone physically weak (for example, not able to come close to benching or squating his body weight) would be successful at those sports. Again, strength is important, just not "the most important" in either life or sports (except powerlifting, of course).

Even in sports that heavily favor that type of strength like sumo wrestling or lineman positions in American football, raw physical strength is hardly the most important factor, although it's certainly very important. Still, you can't say with any certainty that the sumo wrestler or lineman with the best total bench, squat, and deadlift will be the best athlete at his sport. If anything, over focusing on raw strength will detract from his developing his skill and speed, which are also crucial.

I'm not sure what you mean by "strength is measured in velocity." The most common dictionary definition of velocity is speed. Regardless, It seems like you're emotionally dancing around the inherent silliness of Riptoe's quote about physical strength being the most important thing in life. If you're in agreement that lifting very heavy barbells is a great thing to have but far from "the most important thing in life" or even in sports, I guess we're in agreement.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Chess dig noted, but that's not at all what I was talking about and you know it. Although as an aside, if you ever spend any time in Russia, you'll see that Russians very much consider chess a sport and cannot be convinced otherwise. I don't get it either.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "absolute strength." If you're trying to argue that maxing your bench, squat, and dead lift is the most important factor for success in, say, surfing, soccer, or baseball, that's obviously ridiculous. On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that anyone physically weak (for example, not able to come close to benching or squating his body weight) would be successful at those sports. Again, strength is important, just not "the most important" in either life or sports (except powerlifting, of course).

Even in sports that heavily favor that type of strength like sumo wrestling or lineman positions in American football, raw physical strength is hardly the most important factor, although it's certainly very important. Still, you can't say with any certainty that the sumo wrestler or lineman with the best total bench, squat, and deadlift will be the best athlete at his sport. If anything, over focusing on raw strength will detract from his developing his skill and speed, which are also crucial.

I'm not sure what you mean by "strength is measured in velocity." The most common dictionary definition of velocity is speed. Regardless, It seems like you're emotionally dancing around the inherent silliness of Riptoe's quote about physical strength being the most important thing in life. If you're in agreement that lifting very heavy barbells is a great thing to have but far from "the most important thing in life" or even in sports, I guess we're in agreement.

"The Science and Practice of Strength Training explained that strength is measured in velocity, not weight.....
.....Look and study Hill’s equation of muscle contractions. It is easy to see motion velocity decreases as external loads increase. This means that maximum force (Fmm) is attained when velocity is small. This means maximum velocity (Vmm) is attained when external resistance is close to zero."

Having a higher absolute stength means you can take heavier weights and lift them faster still being the same percentage than if you had a lower absolute strength.

Ex my velocity squating 315 when my Max is 405 at 77 percent should be the same as a person squating 770 with a max of 1000.


Read about strength from Louie Simmons. The article contains sources and examples to illustrate

There are multiple forms of strength. Strength speed/strength endurance./absolute strength....

The point is all things being equal with technique, put two athletes together in competition and the person who can generate more velocity and display strength will win. Period.

There are certain sports where strength endurance is prioritized over absolute strength or speed strength over strength endurance... But having a higher absolute stength carries over to the other strength types.

That's what Rip is saying and if you've read his books your get that.

I linked to Louie Simmons because he isn't just a powerlifting coach... He's trained every sport and produces world class athletes. Charles Poliquin said the same sentiment before he died that absolute strength is what separates the elite from the intermediate once technique had been addressed .


But this is the powerlifting thread....so I digress.
 
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MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Wearing the sleeves right now, first upper body day in a week, and so far so good. There's a bit of discomfort in my elbows but I can't tell whether it's the same pain as before but on a much lower scale, or just the discomfort of wearing these tight sleeves with a pump in my arms.
 

bucky

Ostrich
"The Science and Practice of Strength Training explained that strength is measured in velocity, not weight.....
.....Look and study Hill’s equation of muscle contractions. It is easy to see motion velocity decreases as external loads increase. This means that maximum force (Fmm) is attained when velocity is small. This means maximum velocity (Vmm) is attained when external resistance is close to zero."

Having a higher absolute stength means you can take heavier weights and lift them faster still being the same percentage than if you had a lower absolute strength.

Ex my velocity squating 315 when my Max is 405 at 77 percent should be the same as a person squating 770 with a max of 1000.


Read about strength from Louie Simmons. The article contains sources and examples to illustrate

There are multiple forms of strength. Strength speed/strength endurance./absolute strength....

The point is all things being equal with technique, put two athletes together in competition and the person who can generate more velocity and display strength will win. Period.

There are certain sports where strength endurance is prioritized over absolute strength or speed strength over strength endurance... But having a higher absolute stength carries over to the other strength types.

That's what Rip is saying and if you've read his books your get that.

I linked to Louie Simmons because he isn't just a powerlifting coach... He's trained every sport and produces world class athletes. Charles Poliquin said the same sentiment before he died that absolute strength is what separates the elite from the intermediate once technique had been addressed .


But this is the powerlifting thread....so I digress.
Ah, ok. Velocity in the sense of lifting a weight faster. It feels like you're throwing out technical terms to obscure the fact that Riptoe is just wrong about physical strength being the most important thing in any context but powerlifting or a related sport. Period, as you put it.

What you said about two athletes who are evenly matched except for strength applies not only to strength but to any other relevant factor in a sport. It could apply to speed, dexterity, height and weight, quality of equipment, or even intangibles like "guts." Doubtless, strength is important, even in sports where some people might not think it is like golf and archery, but it's not the most important thing, except in sports like powerlifting that explicitly measure strength. Beyond that, physical strength is certainly far from the most important thing in life, which was the original point of this digression.

Anyway, like you said, powerlifting thread, focused on lifting extremely heavy barbells which, while cool, is far from the most important thing in life. Unless you choose to make it so. Carry on.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Ah, ok. Velocity in the sense of lifting a weight faster. It feels like you're throwing out technical terms to obscure the fact that Riptoe is just wrong about physical strength being the most important thing in any context but powerlifting or a related sport. Period, as you put it.

What you said about two athletes who are evenly matched except for strength applies not only to strength but to any other relevant factor in a sport. It could apply to speed, dexterity, height and weight, quality of equipment, or even intangibles like "guts." Doubtless, strength is important, even in sports where some people might not think it is like golf and archery, but it's not the most important thing, except in sports like powerlifting that explicitly measure strength. Beyond that, physical strength is certainly far from the most important thing in life, which was the original point of this digression.

Anyway, like you said, powerlifting thread, focused on lifting extremely heavy barbells which, while cool, is far from the most important thing in life. Unless you choose to make it so. Carry on.
My point isn't to obscure the argument with terminology and terms, but rather provide educational info. Hence the references to prelipins chart, super training ECT...


Here is the 1 hour long podcast discussing the quote. I don't care for everything Rip says... I don't agree with his take on concurrent/Congugate training but you can listen for yourself and decide if the 1 sentence quoted is an accurate portrayal of what he said or not since you said you haven't listened to him or read any of his books a couple pages ago.

I think if you listened to what he says here you might get the totality of the comment... But for sport specific comments:

Of course I don't think it's the most important thing in life. Just in Sports with Model Athletes (most people don't have any idea what the term means)

How do you get faster? Well a marathon runner who can squat 200 for 100 reps is going to have a higher base in his athletic pyramid than a marathon runner who can only do 100 for 100 reps.

Let's say it takes a metric of 200 lbs of force in the bench press to hit a home run...Just like steroids don't make you hit a ball better, benching 405 won't mean you're going to hit the ball either. Sport specific physical preparedness is what you do to get better at the batting. A 400 lb bencher and a 250 lb bencher aren't using weights as SPP (sport specific phsys preparedness) but rather GPP (general phys preparedness. In this case the 400 lb bencher has a higher GPP base. He is going to have more longevity and repeated effort demonstration ability because the percentage of force required to smash the ball of his absolute strength is much lower than the 250 bencher. (50 percent of his 1rm vs 80 percent of 1 rm)

Once you dig into the Soviet stength manuals which applied the science regarding strength training for all Olympic sports not just weight lifting, they all produce the same conclusion about strength... The stronger you are in the classical lifts for your sport whether it's for gpp or SPP, the better of an athlete you are.
 

Penitent

Robin
Orthodox
Wearing the sleeves right now, first upper body day in a week, and so far so good. There's a bit of discomfort in my elbows but I can't tell whether it's the same pain as before but on a much lower scale, or just the discomfort of wearing these tight sleeves with a pump in my arms.
It occurs to me that you may have been flaring your elbows out. I've gotten elbow pain from flaring my elbows out in the bench, and even in the squat. I've probably also gotten elbow pain from db rows, and it could have possibly been for the same reason. I always try to keep my "elbows tucked"
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Any of you use a safety squat bar? I see the appeal but I’ve never actually used one, so I don’t know about its utility beyond the gimmick aspect compared to a barbell.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Any of you use a safety squat bar? I see the appeal but I’ve never actually used one, so I don’t know about its utility beyond the gimmick aspect compared to a barbell.
I have a EliteFTS SSB yoke bar.

Best money for your lower body you can spend.

It will develop your upper back and force you not to pitch forward in the squat while also sparing your shoulders.

Once you get proficient in squating and lifting it will help immensely in developing weak areas in your form.
 

kel

Ostrich
I use a safety bar because my gym has one and like it. I don't know that I'd spend the extra money for it in my home gym if I had one, but if one's available I use it.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
I use a safety bar because my gym has one and like it. I don't know that I'd spend the extra money for it in my home gym if I had one, but if one's available I use it.
It is absolutely worth the money I'd you have a home gym. The best one on the market is the EliteFTS model.

It is great for Squating, Zercher Squats, Good Mornings, Standing Calf raises, and you can flip it around and do Front Squats also.

Also it raised the height of the bar on your spine so it provides a different stimulus on your CNS and also provides relief on your shoulders and elbows

If you're looking for something to invest in for a lower body specialty bar that's my first choice.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Since we started talking about the SSB i thought I'd use it tonight. Did my first semi heavy lower body Max Effort Work Out after I had an injury a couple weeks ago that i was trying to prevent from getting worse. Work out was successful, no issues and no pain.

Did low box (12 inch) box squat onto a foam top with a monster mini around the bar . Did singles working up from bar, 95x3, 155x3, 205x3 245x2, 295x1, 335x1 385x1, then 415 X1 and finished with 335 x 6 .

Moved on to Sumo Deadlifts sets of 3 at 65, 70, 75, and 80 percent 1RM...

Then reverse hypers 360lbs x 3x20

Then standing calves (with the SSB and holding the rack) 245+ monster mini 3x12

Then standing banded ab crunches 3 sets of 25 front/sides

Whole thing took about 85 mins (had to deal with one of the kids coming in and wanting to work out with me by hanging from the bands as a slingshot... Very safe)

So you can see the SSB is very versatile. The other thing I would do is swap deads for SSB Good mornings. That will blow up your spinal erectors and butt/hams.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Ok, sounds like I have to get one. Coop from “Garage Gym Reviews” preferred the Titan SSB to the EliteFTS, says it’s almost the same thing for way less money. Any thoughts on that?
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Ok, sounds like I have to get one. Coop from “Garage Gym Reviews” preferred the Titan SSB to the EliteFTS, says it’s almost the same thing for way less money. Any thoughts on that?
Nope.

If you're buying for the home gym buy the EliteFTS one. It will last 20 years and not need a pad.

Titan is Chinese garbage. Do not buy their stuff. The big thing about the Elitefts bar Is the pad. There isnt a comfortable bar on the market at the price point (MARRS or Kabuki are great too but significantly more expensive)

I wouldn't listen too much to Coop. He's a bit of a gear queer and the fact that he's pushing a titan product would make me question how much use had accurately occured with his bars. There's a lot of great stuff on the Elitefts site.

I suppose if you can't afford a the Elite Bar go with Titan, but the only thing is buy from titan Is their plates.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Nope.

If you're buying for the home gym buy the EliteFTS one. It will last 20 years and not need a pad.

Titan is Chinese garbage. Do not buy their stuff. The big thing about the Elitefts bar Is the pad. There isnt a comfortable bar on the market at the price point (MARRS or Kabuki are great too but significantly more expensive)

I wouldn't listen too much to Coop. He's a bit of a gear queer and the fact that he's pushing a titan product would make me question how much use had accurately occured with his bars. There's a lot of great stuff on the Elitefts site.

I suppose if you can't afford a the Elite Bar go with Titan, but the only thing is buy from titan Is their plates.
Elite’s prices seem obscene. $950 for an incline bench? I paid around $150 for mine and there’s nothing Elite’s does that mine doesn’t.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Elite’s prices seem obscene. $950 for an incline bench? I paid around $150 for mine and there’s nothing Elite’s does that mine doesn’t.
Depends on what you are looking for. They are professional grade equipment. Professional.

I bet if you got on one of their inclines vs yours you'd likely see why the overbuilt item costs more.

Their "quick ship" or Garage line stuff is at a very good price point and their Bars are at an excellent point also. Just kinda depends on what your needs are.

If buying for a home gym, a lot of your stuff can be acquired locally via craigslist, and as/if you get stronger, you might upgrade.
 
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