Powerlifting

Oh I know my discipline and work ethic aren’t the issue. Even when I was on TRT (replacement dose, nothing supraphysiological) my triceps and calves simply didn’t grow. Genetics make a world of difference and I just want to make the best of what I’ve got. If my genetic capacity for muscle is already reached, then so be it, but I won’t really know unless I’m at least trying to lean bulk and put on more muscle mass. Unfortunately when I “lean bulk,” even gaining only .5 pounds per week, I add body fat no matter what.
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
Totally agree. Genetics are huge. I'm just speaking up for the guys who kill themselves in the gym for years with increasingly diminishing returns and buy that the problem is that they lack discipline and don't work hard, often after overtraining and severely injuring themselves. Genetic limits are real, and the only way past them is gear.
I was lifting for 2 years, doing powerlifting and then moving into strongman. I became obsessed with it, and started a cycle of test. The progress I made in that cycle far surpassed everything I did before. I had longer workouts (3+ hours), I could recover within hours rather than days, and I would put on muscle so quickly. I stopped because I required surgery, and I haven't done a good workout since December. Unfortunately, roids are necessary if you're serious about lifting.

When I recover from my surgery, I'm just doing cardio and lighter lifting. I'm not interesting in becoming a bulk monster anymore. I just want to have a healthy heart and lungs and not have a gut. There's also an aspect of lifting that is a harmful subculture, where it's just drug addicts destroying their body for pride and vanity.
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
Oh I know my discipline and work ethic aren’t the issue. Even when I was on TRT (replacement dose, nothing supraphysiological) my triceps and calves simply didn’t grow. Genetics make a world of difference and I just want to make the best of what I’ve got. If my genetic capacity for muscle is already reached, then so be it, but I won’t really know unless I’m at least trying to lean bulk and put on more muscle mass. Unfortunately when I “lean bulk,” even gaining only .5 pounds per week, I add body fat no matter what.
Genetics also plays a major part of lifting. Larger hands improves your grip and your deadlift. A long torso and short legs makes it easier for you to squat and bench. Long arms makes the deadlift easier. Shallow hip joints let's you hit depth without form breaking down. A wider chest, back, and shoulders allow you to carry more weight. More fast twitch muscles give you more explosivity. Bigger lungs obviously allows for more oxygen to your muscles.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
Try more like 20 years. It's the eternal debate, one we're unlikely to resolve here. I can say that although my numbers will never impress anyone and I'll never be on the cover of a fitness magazine, I'm a pretty fit guy now that I'm middle aged and I wish I'd gone more the nattyornot route when I was younger. I'd have saved myself a lot of frustration and injuries. If you think that successful powerlifters, bodybuilders, and pro athletes aren't on gear, I don't know what to tell you. If you believe that you can put on insane amounts of muscle or get impressive powerlifting numbers naturally, then go for it. See how it works out. There will always be guys there to tell you you're "a pussy" and don't work hard enough because you can't bench 2x your bodyweight or deadlift 3x, and if you're a true believer like I was, you'll probably get fat and put yourself in the ER trying. You'll probably also spend a lot of time following programs designed by guys on gear for guys on gear, yet marketed to gullible nattys.

"Why do you want to be a human forklift?" was one of Truth Seeker's questions that really got me thinking. When will you need to lift an object that weighs more than 200 pounds on your own. Did men back in the cavemen days ever do that? No. At the most, they may have had to sling a wounded comrade over their shoulders to carry him, but they didn't squat him for multiple reps. If lifting unnaturally heavy things is your thing go for it, of course, but it's useful to ask yourself why. I did, and I'm better off for it now.

Edit: I really should probably stay out of this debate, but I feel bad for guys like Michael who obviously work hard and wonder why their arms and calves never get big like the guys in the magazines, like I did. Consider this my voice in the wilderness saying "it's the drugs, man" and do as you wish.
Firstly, drugs can and do play a part in professional strength sports/bodybuilding.

But your comments are frankly wrong about genetic potential for a natural athlete. There are naturals who's numbers are within 10 percent of enhanced athletes. At the risk of coming off like a douche, I think you're probably ignorant of the stats.

Please post this stuff in a related thread like "work out routine" or fitness"

Its not the drugs. Its the diet. The drugs synthesize, but the basic SS model (which I don't use but do know work) have proven this with thousands of natural athletes who are strong and not on gear.

The whole "I've been doing this for 20 years and it's drugs" thing probably shows you're out of your depth.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dickhead, but its pretty simple:

Compound movements, lots of food, specialty exercises, rest recovery adaptation cycle.

There are genetic caps, but unless you're 220 at 5'5'' or 242 at 5'8'' you're probably under eating and not really oriented toward powerlifting, but some other fitness hobby, which is fine... Just don't pedal the 'its the drugs man' crap. Because at best drugs give you 10 percent.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
Oh I know my discipline and work ethic aren’t the issue. Even when I was on TRT (replacement dose, nothing supraphysiological) my triceps and calves simply didn’t grow. Genetics make a world of difference and I just want to make the best of what I’ve got. If my genetic capacity for muscle is already reached, then so be it, but I won’t really know unless I’m at least trying to lean bulk and put on more muscle mass. Unfortunately when I “lean bulk,” even gaining only .5 pounds per week, I add body fat no matter what.
What were you doing for triceps and calves?

What was your body weight? What were your macros? Did you track diet?

You will gain about 2/3 ratio muscle to fat even when very meticulous. Do if you gain 6 lbs, of mass (not including water weight) 2 will be fat. That's basic body comp.

If you want to get stronger, mass has to accrue.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
I was lifting for 2 years, doing powerlifting and then moving into strongman. I became obsessed with it, and started a cycle of test. The progress I made in that cycle far surpassed everything I did before. I had longer workouts (3+ hours), I could recover within hours rather than days, and I would put on muscle so quickly. I stopped because I required surgery, and I haven't done a good workout since December. Unfortunately, roids are necessary if you're serious about lifting.

When I recover from my surgery, I'm just doing cardio and lighter lifting. I'm not interesting in becoming a bulk monster anymore. I just want to have a healthy heart and lungs and not have a gut. There's also an aspect of lifting that is a harmful subculture, where it's just drug addicts destroying their body for pride and vanity.

For context what were your numbers and bodyweight pre steroids? What was your cycle use (400mg a week vs 1g a week). You said 2 years of lifting... You're probably no where near your natural peak at 2 years. So the roids are just gonna hasten what you're already going to be able to do with time and patience naturally.
 
What were you doing for triceps and calves?

What was your body weight? What were your macros? Did you track diet?

You will gain about 2/3 ratio muscle to fat even when very meticulous. Do if you gain 6 lbs, of mass (not including water weight) 2 will be fat. That's basic body comp.

If you want to get stronger, mass has to accrue.
All the usual stuff for both. Calf raises standing and sitting for calves, skullcrushers / kickbacks / pushdowns etc for triceps. Body weight went from 187 to 157, and I know you aren't supposed to be building muscle on a cut, but I'm pretty sure I was regardless everywhere but those two areas. Tracked protein and calories, didn't pay as much attention to fat and carbs, but calories were about 1800 per day and protein was always about .8-1g / pound of bodyweight. Only this week am I starting to pay attention to fat and carbs, which will be harder to do overall because Lent is starting soon and my food options will be severely limited. The weird thing is that on my last lean bulk, from 157 to 163, I gained more fat than I wanted so I cut back down - with a worse ratio of fat/muscle after the bulk/cut cycle then I had beforehand. I looked better at 160 on the way up than I did at 157 on the way back down.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
All the usual stuff for both. Calf raises standing and sitting for calves, skullcrushers / kickbacks / pushdowns etc for triceps. Body weight went from 187 to 157, and I know you aren't supposed to be building muscle on a cut, but I'm pretty sure I was regardless everywhere but those two areas. Tracked protein and calories, didn't pay as much attention to fat and carbs, but calories were about 1800 per day and protein was always about .8-1g / pound of bodyweight. Only this week am I starting to pay attention to fat and carbs, which will be harder to do overall because Lent is starting soon and my food options will be severely limited. The weird thing is that on my last lean bulk, from 157 to 163, I gained more fat than I wanted so I cut back down - with a worse ratio of fat/muscle after the bulk/cut cycle then I had beforehand. I looked better at 160 on the way up than I did at 157 on the way back down.
I would say try and maintain your protein as high as possible with lent. It is hard to reconcile being pious and strength training. In fact with out something like pea protein or soy (fake food) it'd impossible.

I am just giving up red meat, alcohol, and oil ( have to get a little chicken/eggs/dairy in), but I know I can do that and not break the fast, vs trying everything and failing spectacularly.


Anyway...

I would really suggest a Starting Strength novice linear progression program
 
I do have a blessing to consume whey protein since it's not for flavor or pleasure, gonna see if I can get one for Greek yogurt. I should be able to pull off no meat/dairy beyond that but I have to talk to my priest still. I don't know if I want to do Starting Strength, mainly for two reasons: 1. Built With Science has been working great for me for everything but calves and triceps, and 2. I don't want to look like Mark Rippetoe. I don't know what happened to him but if he ruined his body doing his program then I don't want to follow in those footsteps. I did Stronglifts 5 x 5 a couple years ago but I don't really like it anymore. I'm considering Leangains, any experience with it?
 

bucky

Ostrich
Firstly, drugs can and do play a part in professional strength sports/bodybuilding.

But your comments are frankly wrong about genetic potential for a natural athlete. There are naturals who's numbers are within 10 percent of enhanced athletes. At the risk of coming off like a douche, I think you're probably ignorant of the stats.

Please post this stuff in a related thread like "work out routine" or fitness"

Its not the drugs. Its the diet. The drugs synthesize, but the basic SS model (which I don't use but do know work) have proven this with thousands of natural athletes who are strong and not on gear.

The whole "I've been doing this for 20 years and it's drugs" thing probably shows you're out of your depth.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dickhead, but its pretty simple:

Compound movements, lots of food, specialty exercises, rest recovery adaptation cycle.

There are genetic caps, but unless you're 220 at 5'5'' or 242 at 5'8'' you're probably under eating and not really oriented toward powerlifting, but some other fitness hobby, which is fine... Just don't pedal the 'its the drugs man' crap. Because at best drugs give you 10 percent.
Completely disagree, but this thread is about lifting as much as possible which hasn't been my goal for a long time. If any of you natty guys are stuck after a few years of hard training and not improving much I guess it's up to you to decide whether you're a pussy who doesn't train hard enough or it's a lack of drugs.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
Completely disagree, but this thread is about lifting as much as possible which hasn't been my goal for a long time. If any of you natty guys are stuck after a few years of hard training and not improving much I guess it's up to you to decide whether you're a pussy who doesn't train hard enough or it's a lack of drugs.
It could be a multitude of things. Probably its diet, sleep, and programming. But mostly diet. IF you want to not get strong in the powerflifts thats fine, but you have to gain weight for leverages, be it muscle or fat.

The whole "hard gainer" thing is usually a result of people not tracking their calories and under eating. Watch any major nutritional coach in the bodybuilding world, I like Justin Harris, explain this to you.

I highly doubt its the need to introduce drugs unless you're benching 2x body weight, and squating 2.5x body weight, or deadlifting 2.5x body weight.

These are all things people attain naturally all the time, there even bozos at your regular gym can do this. Maybe you are rationalizing your own attitude and accepting that you are fine with being stuck wherever you are... which is fine by me.

But I take umbrage with the notion that dismisses hard work and other crucial aspects of the sport as "its probably drugs"

Thats a cop out.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
I do have a blessing to consume whey protein since it's not for flavor or pleasure, gonna see if I can get one for Greek yogurt. I should be able to pull off no meat/dairy beyond that but I have to talk to my priest still. I don't know if I want to do Starting Strength, mainly for two reasons: 1. Built With Science has been working great for me for everything but calves and triceps, and 2. I don't want to look like Mark Rippetoe. I don't know what happened to him but if he ruined his body doing his program then I don't want to follow in those footsteps. I did Stronglifts 5 x 5 a couple years ago but I don't really like it anymore. I'm considering Leangains, any experience with it?
I dont have expereince with any of them but SS.

You will not look like Mark Rippetoe unless you dont keep your diet in check. He is also like 65. When he was in his 30s and 40s he was not as chubby as now.

The reason TO DO it is that you build the basic power lifts, and through that you will develop mass all over. Through growing your various presses your triceps will grow. Through squating 495 lbs your calves will grow. You can always add assistance at the end, but its probably not necessary.

There is absolute an argument for direct hypertrophy work. But I would spend the time first getting your poundages up in the big 3 plus the press and bent over rows, then add the assistance.
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
For context what were your numbers and bodyweight pre steroids? What was your cycle use (400mg a week vs 1g a week). You said 2 years of lifting... You're probably no where near your natural peak at 2 years. So the roids are just gonna hasten what you're already going to be able to do with time and patience naturally.
Nah, I was doing a dedicated lifting program for the last 2 years, but I have been lifting generally for 7. The amount of progress I made in that one cycle was nuts. It was the quick recovery time, the ability to go longer in the session, and the raw power I felt was completely different than anything I did before. And, again, that was just a test cycle. If I started to stack, I could only imagine what I could do. Competitive lifting, whether it's weightlifting, powerlifting, strongman, or bodybuilding is a roid game.

And I was fat for my height. I had no interest in gaining any further weight and becoming a bloatload.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
Nah, I was doing a dedicated lifting program for the last 2 years, but I have been lifting generally for 7. The amount of progress I made in that one cycle was nuts. It was the quick recovery time, the ability to go longer in the session, and the raw power I felt was completely different than anything I did before. And, again, that was just a test cycle. If I started to stack, I could only imagine what I could do. Competitive lifting, whether it's weightlifting, powerlifting, strongman, or bodybuilding is a roid game.

And I was fat for my height. I had no interest in gaining any further weight and becoming a bloatload.
Its true drugs work. But again without a starting point of what your numbers were it's really hard to declare what is and is not attainable due to roids vs naturally.

There are naturals who can bench press 500 lbs. There are naturals who can squat 800 lbs.

Its mostly CNS and diet and not drugs.

Again I think it's disingenuous to say that all success at some point is a result of drugs just because you had success while one them.

Of course steroids will aid in Muscle Protein Synthesis. But set a bottle of testosterone and s cyringe on a bench and tell me how it is going to bench 500? You have to do the work, you have to eat. You have to train and program ect ...
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
Its true drugs work. But again without a starting point of what your numbers were it's really hard to declare what is and is not attainable due to roids vs naturally.

There are naturals who can bench press 500 lbs. There are naturals who can squat 800 lbs.

Its mostly CNS and diet and not drugs.

Again I think it's disingenuous to say that all success at some point is a result of drugs just because you had success while one them.

Of course steroids will aid in Muscle Protein Synthesis. But set a bottle of testosterone and s cyringe on a bench and tell me how it is going to bench 500? You have to do the work, you have to eat. You have to train and program ect ...
Oh no doubt. I'm not one of those people that thinks if someone jumps on steroids, he's going to be a massive beast because of that. Programming, hard-work, genetics, and diet all matter. I still respect, watch and enjoy all levels of strength sports.
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
I do have a blessing to consume whey protein since it's not for flavor or pleasure, gonna see if I can get one for Greek yogurt. I should be able to pull off no meat/dairy beyond that but I have to talk to my priest still. I don't know if I want to do Starting Strength, mainly for two reasons: 1. Built With Science has been working great for me for everything but calves and triceps, and 2. I don't want to look like Mark Rippetoe. I don't know what happened to him but if he ruined his body doing his program then I don't want to follow in those footsteps. I did Stronglifts 5 x 5 a couple years ago but I don't really like it anymore. I'm considering Leangains, any experience with it?
Mark is stuck in the past with his strength programming and approach, and because of it, I wouldn't recommend Starting Strength. The question you need to ask yourself if what goal do you want from your training. For example, do you want to be a better long distance runner, do you want to rock climb, do you want to have a ripped body, do you want to have a big deadlift, do you want to be able to carry heavy thing, etcs. The problem with programs like Starting Strength is they are too general. Strength or endurance is functional and is built around a specific goal.

For example, you might want to be able to bench 2 plates and have a big chest. OK, so you would build a program where you would bench twice a week, with one being an accessory bench, and then have your other workouts be designed around other muscles that support a big bench (arms, back, shoulders). Or, for another example, you want to have a bodybuilding physique. In that case, you want to do high rep, lower weights, and have more cardio and conditioning in your program. You're going to have the most success if you have a concrete goal by a certain date, which allows you to track your progress and tailor your approach.
 
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Ideally I'd like to have about 15 more pounds of lean muscle than I currently have, with lower body fat. That leads to about 175 pounds at around 12% body fat (currently weigh 160 and have probably 15-17% BF). I'm not trying to win contests in either bodybuilding or powerlifting, because in general I really don't care about competing with anyone besides myself. Not sure whether to do a long-term bulk to around 185 and strip off fat, or do several cycles of bulk-cut on the way up (which tend to make me look worse afterward than I did before).
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
Ideally I'd like to have about 15 more pounds of lean muscle than I currently have, with lower body fat. That leads to about 175 pounds at around 12% body fat (currently weigh 160 and have probably 15-17% BF). I'm not trying to win contests in either bodybuilding or powerlifting, because in general I really don't care about competing with anyone besides myself. Not sure whether to do a long-term bulk to around 185 and strip off fat, or do several cycles of bulk-cut on the way up (which tend to make me look worse afterward than I did before).
What's the reason you want to have more lean muscle? Is it aesthetic or is there some functional reason?

I wouldn't think about it like bulking and cutting if you're not interested in bodybuilding. Once you bulk, your stomach and skin expands, meaning that you're body wants you to maintain that weight, and it's difficult to lose it. You will also lose a portion of that lean muscle when you cut because you're going to cut strength and lean muscle when you cut mass. There's no way around it.

Just eat at a calorie surplus, with a diet high in protein, and avoid processed foods and other foods that are calorie dense. When you reach a weight that you're happy with, stop eating the calorie surplus. If you want to cut down on your weight, have a diet with a calorie deficit.
 
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