Prices, Inflation/Deflation, Interest Rates & The Fed

chance vought

Woodpecker
Protestant
I'm curious then. So keep you bitcoin. Powerful countries around the world won't accept bitcoin. Maybe a few South Americans states will accept it as legal tender.

But how will you buy a loaf of bread and some peanutbutter and pay fro a hotel in the US with bitcoin? Who will change it? Convert the bitcoin to US dollar or the new CBDC?
Yes in that scenario, Bitcoin does not need to be sold. It could be used as collateral for a loan to get CBDC or dollars, whatever you want, assuming it is not banned. That is the logical thing to do now in 2021...spending Bitcoin in some countries, including the USA incurs capital gains tax. Putting Bitcoin up as collateral for fiat money incurs no tax at all.

Lets say the USA bans Bitcoin ownership. In countries that banned it, the price increased 20% over the normal spot price. Bitcoin has even more purchasing power in a country in which it is banned. Now the population sees the value of owning and acquiring Bitcoin (which is what causes its price increase when it is banned, as well as extra risk involved in getting it.) Now I have no fiat money, and no way to get a loan, since I can't use my Bitcoin as collateral for a loan, because I'm not supposed to own it.

I won't starve to death. Now there are millions more people that don't have Bitcoin that want it, and the only way they can buy it is from people who had it before the ban. They are willing to go to Wal-Mart and buy all the bread and peanutbutter I want, in exchange for my Bitcoin. I can trade them for as much dirty fiat money as I need, even more profitably because Bitcoin is worth more after a government ban.

 
Last edited:

paternos

Robin
Catholic
Why does gold have value over ages? Why did disconnected people all around the world independently choose gold? Because government said to? If people liked it as Jewelry, why is 99% of it made into rectangular bricks and stored in a dark warehouse?

I don't know. There has always been a certain attraction to the metal. (i find it special as well, look in church, gold is beautiful in an icon)

Probably scarcity (hard to trade with 100 pounds of grain), the ability to easily melt it and create coins.
The bricks is ofcourse the gold standard.

The only reason they would need to crush Bitcoin is if it DOES have intrinsic value...the act of trying to crush it proves that logically.
I agree that the most logical attack vector is media and social pressure...lets say it succeeds in the USA...the media campaign says only white supremacists and pedophiles use Bitcoin. 90% of Americans reject Bitcoin. We get a less functional, censored CBDC. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has a freely traded and more desirable currency, and a booming economy. What happens to the CBDC? I think it dies. That's why any store in Zimbabwe will accept a US dollar, but the inverse is not true, you can't buy a pack of gum with your 100 Trillion Zimbabwe dollars at the 7-11. One is accepted everywhere and has value everywhere, and one is nearly useless.
Well yes there is a belief now in quite some people that bitcoin could be the major global currency.

So ultimately it is about power, and then the question is, can you get the majority of the global population to use it?

It will be a hard fight, you have the major governments, that control the army, the police, weaponry and the rich which own the majority of assets all against you.

I estimate the chance at 0.01% for the bitcoin to become the global currency and 99,99 that it will be either continuatrion of what we do today, or local CBDCs or a global / regional CBDC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ultimately all the talk online about this topic is an estimation game. The bitcoiners belief this chance is a lot higher. Time will tell.
They have no choice. It is happening and will continue to happen. Argentina, Venezuela, dozens more currencies will fall.
Well i don't agree here. If the currency falls. Mostly countries start a new. (check Italy for example) And there are many different options.
- New fiat
- Gold standard
- Local CBDC
- Regional CBDC
- Bitcoin
- New coin created by the government (far more likely than bitcoin i think), e.g. italycoin
- Any of the other 1.000 coins
You are correct about the pump and dump in 2008...one sector was inflated, some wealthy people and institutions saw that, waited for the bubble to pop, and bought from the panicked sellers. This time I believe is different, in that EVERY sector is inflated. Allowing all those bubbles to pop at once would be so catastrophic, there would be chaos. I believe central banks will print to infinity to prevent such a deleveraging.
Inflated is a relative measure.

What you see is that money (the air in the balloon) always flows somewhere else. It's just hard to predict where it will go. I'm sure that in 3 years. Some industries, some coins will be at least 5x the value of what they are today.

E.g. in a total stock market decline, the dollar is rising in relative value. After the crash a dollar buys you more company.
 

chance vought

Woodpecker
Protestant
I don't know. There has always been a certain attraction to the metal. (i find it special as well, look in church, gold is beautiful in an icon)

Probably scarcity (hard to trade with 100 pounds of grain), the ability to easily melt it and create coins.
The bricks is ofcourse the gold standard.
That was due to its wide distribution, durability, and the energy input required to mine it vs its overall supply (stock to flow). It's stock to flow is very high (~60) and due to the amount of capital and energy required to mine, fairly constant. It is the only substance on Earth that has this combination of distribution, durability, assayability, and high stock to flow. People monetized it out of self interest, because it was the best thing available to store monetary energy. Those that used glass beads, cockle shells, or other less suitable items as money were eventually enslaved by those that used gold. Government didn't declare gold money: people used it out of self interest. Game theory.

The same thing will happen to Bitcoin. It is being monetized for the same reasons. It is the best thing available for what it does. It does everything gold does better. It will demonetize everything else because it is so much better at being a store of wealth. It is more rare, harder to fake, easier to transport, much more secure, and far cheaper to secure.
Well yes there is a belief now in quite some people that bitcoin could be the major global currency.

So ultimately it is about power, and then the question is, can you get the majority of the global population to use it?

It will be a hard fight, you have the major governments, that control the army, the police, weaponry and the rich which own the majority of assets all against you.
There is no fight. Governments that try to fight Bitcoin, are like the African tribes selling each other into slavery for glass beads that Europeans mass produced in factories, and rejecting gold.

People who hold Bitcoin don't need to fight, there is nothing at all to fight. People will choose the best money, just as they have since the dawn of time. Just because the Weimar Republic says the Mark money, doesn't make it so. CBDCs might work for a few years, but eventually, they will become worthless. What good is a money that can be stolen or debased with the ease of a button push? Why would Saudi Arabia accept a US CBDC for its oil?

Why does the dollar dominate everywhere? I could go into a Moroccan bazaar, and I bet they would take US dollars...because it is the best money we have in the current system. Bitcoin is the best money now, and more people will adopt it and use it out of self interest...not from evangelism or government dictate. Game theory.
I estimate the chance at 0.01% for the bitcoin to become the global currency and 99,99 that it will be either continuatrion of what we do today, or local CBDCs or a global / regional CBDC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ultimately all the talk online about this topic is an estimation game. The bitcoiners belief this chance is a lot higher. Time will tell.
Right now I'd say the chances that Bitcoin becomes the dominant asset is 99%. Again, I just don't see why an inferior money would win. You are essentially saying cockle shells could replace gold, because we can breed an infinite amount of snails for more shells, rather than wasting money and destroying the environment mining gold.
What you see is that money (the air in the balloon) always flows somewhere else. It's just hard to predict where it will go. I'm sure that in 3 years. Some industries, some coins will be at least 5x the value of what they are today.

E.g. in a total stock market decline, the dollar is rising in relative value. After the crash a dollar buys you more company.
Right but the leverage in the system is so high, the entire financial system would collapse. Your bank deposits get "bailed in". Your money is gone, and is replaced by shares of the now worthless bank. This won't be allowed to happen, that is why I think we have a decade of high inflation.
 

EndlessGravity

Pelican
Protestant
No reason to get upset.

OK. So if we are being pumped at the moment, then we currently have inflation... and the dumping (deflation) is coming down the pipe? I think in my comment I didn't in any way rule this out.

Context of the prices:
-my hourly rate is the same as it was prior to 2020.
- the fed didn't tell me there were price inceases, I noticed prices going up, specifically on property values and farm equipment.

If your typical citizen can't see or feel deflation, how is it occuring? Your comment seems to lead to the idea that the machinations of the loans will lead to deflation, but this has not yet happened.

Bubbles eventually pop, but a growing bubble, as you say we are in one, is by definition inflating. Bubbles inflate. :)

No. Pump and dumps don't rely on inflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

The price increases you're talking about aren't inflation and they aren't going to last long. Have you not wondered why "inflation" only affects some prices but not others?

Look at chicken. Does inflation target beef but not chicken? How does inflation know the difference? IT DOESN'T. What you are referring to is not inflation and has mostly consisted of used car prices.

Deflation is already in gear. You all are blinded by the little upside because you're not looking down into the hole from 2020. I'd say I'd feel bad watching you all get fleeced like I did in 2007...but at this point I'm happy to sell you overpriced real estate and buy it back when everything flips back like it has over and over since 1999.

Anyone want to buy some more gold I bought from the last bottom?

Screenshot from 2021-12-03 15-35-20.png
 

paternos

Robin
Catholic
Right now I'd say the chances that Bitcoin becomes the dominant asset is 99%.
Hope you have luck in your investments. You are a smart guy i can read in your comments, but we differ our estimates here. It's fascinating how that works. As much in life. We see the perception of reality and future differs between humans.

Time will tell. Let's see how the games play out.
 

chance vought

Woodpecker
Protestant
Hope you have luck in your investments. You are a smart guy i can read in your comments, but we differ our estimates here. It's fascinating how that works. As much in life. We see the perception of reality and future differs between humans.

Time will tell. Let's see how the games play out.
History has shown that the superior money wins.
Bitcoin is the superior money in every way.
All it has to do is survive, which is baked into the code. People are individually incentivized to maintain it and keep it alive.
I don't know if it takes 5 years or 500, but in every way I can fathom it seems inevitable. I want more people to challenge my thinking, study Bitcoin, and challenge me again.
Thank you @paternos
 

Blade Runner

Hummingbird
Orthodox
No reason to get upset.

OK. So if we are being pumped at the moment, then we currently have inflation... and the dumping (deflation) is coming down the pipe? I think in my comment I didn't in any way rule this out.

Context of the prices:
-my hourly rate is the same as it was prior to 2020.
- the fed didn't tell me there were price inceases, I noticed prices going up, specifically on property values and farm equipment.

If your typical citizen can't see or feel deflation, how is it occuring? Your comment seems to lead to the idea that the machinations of the loans will lead to deflation, but this has not yet happened.

Bubbles eventually pop, but a growing bubble, as you say we are in one, is by definition inflating. Bubbles inflate. :)
Yes, he accuses us of listening to the "media" and appeals to prices of fast food and TVs, while we have given hundreds of examples of costs increasing. Yet a cheap burger means there's clearly "deflation." LOL
 

Blade Runner

Hummingbird
Orthodox
History has shown that the superior money wins.
Bitcoin is the superior money in every way.
All it has to do is survive, which is baked into the code. People are individually incentivized to maintain it and keep it alive.
I don't know if it takes 5 years or 500, but in every way I can fathom it seems inevitable. I want more people to challenge my thinking, study Bitcoin, and challenge me again.
Thank you @paternos
I came to this conclusion quite a while ago and for that reason it's hard for me to even bother "diversifying" anymore with the fiat I work so hard to acquire :squintlol:

May I add that I believe paternos is too stuck on the fact that there are a lot of normies out there that aren't going to want to use, or aren't capable of using, BTC. If you look at current economies and human societies historically, this is irrelevant. The producers and those who do the smartest things in any given society are always a very small minority. This is precisely why those adopting BTC, who will by definition be in this class, don't need to worry about anything else - if @chance vought and I are right then the adoption of BTC as an asset will take care of itself. The first thing that average joe needs to do is start analyzing language and thinking about media in general, something he'll be forced to do more and more, and realize that also with BTC the term "cryptocurrency" always was something that distracted you from the real issue at hand, and brought out unnecessary worries and comparisons. It has been, and will continue to be, a crypto asset; it doesn't need to compete with any country for currency status. They can mess with or abuse the normies all they want, for however long that can last. The problem of course will be when the normies see that the smarter among them have figured out how to overcome the current challenges, or have indeed left them in their own dung heap for obvious reasons that required the cream to rise to the top (and commonly go elsewhere as a result). Bitcoin doesn't need to be the world reserve, it doesn't need to challenge currencies, it doesn't need to convince anyone about anything - it just needs to be what it is (the hardest, most pristine and easily used, portable asset) - and whatever follows will be its best use, which means increased adoption and a positive feedback loop to be among the world's most sought after asset in order to preserve one's labors and efforts (purchasing power).
 

gat

Robin
Protestant
What gives anything value? Tell me something that has "inherent value" and why? What gives the "Federal Reserve Note" in your pocket value?
Why would they need to crush Bitcoin if it has no value?

If the Tech entrepreneur had a Ferrari, they don't have to threaten him or negotiate, they just pull the trigger and drive away. They don't know how much Bitcoin he has, he could have 1 Bitcoin or 10,000. Maybe that 10,000 Bitcoin is in a time-locked multi sig wallet where the Bitcoin can't be spent for 5 years...Does he tell the robbers to come back in 5 years so he can send them the Bitcoin?

I agree, some people will be forever depended on the government, regulations, and banks, because they can't be responsible for themselves. Civilization has fostered and created this dependent, farm animal mindset. For them it is riskier to "be their own bank". They are more likely to lose their money to carelessness than to government, banks, or other peoples carelessness.

Other people will have much lower risk by keeping their own assets, rather than putting them at risk for someone else to hold.

I really enjoy these discussions because once I understood the implications of this, I could not un-see it. I want some debate, some pushback on why Bitcoin won't succeed, because I've never been more certain that it will, and certainty is foolish. I want to hear every doubt and attack vector so I can refine my thinking.
The attack vector for Bitcoin is going to be similar to their attack vector on gold. They will paper-ize it.

They can do this by solving for the incovenience of buying/selling/storing Bitcoin - just like they did with gold. With gold they did this first through banks and then ultimately through centralized paper 'markets'. With Bitcoin I think they will do it by venture funding wallet companies and inventing and funding things like lightning (lightning was unnecessary to scale Bitcoin and actually made it less decentralized) at first. Eventually they will somehow move these various mechanisms of custody to a more central 'market'. Then they can print their CBDCs as they wish.

I'm also pretty convinced they already gained influence over the core developers - leading to things like the lightning network. The people who make decisions on Bitcoin are a small group of developers, miners, and large owners. It's highly likely they were bought off. Look into the history of Tether, the people behind Tether, and also the battle between Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin/Lightning Network and you'll likely come to a similar conclusion.

All that said, this attack vector will cause the price to go up because it is an 'if you can't beat them, join them' investment model. They are going to embrace Bitcoin, pump it, and slowly usurp it for their CBDCs. Then they can get back to their good old days of money printer go brrr.
 

NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
No. Pump and dumps don't rely on inflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

The price increases you're talking about aren't inflation and they aren't going to last long. Have you not wondered why "inflation" only affects some prices but not others?

Look at chicken. Does inflation target beef but not chicken? How does inflation know the difference? IT DOESN'T. What you are referring to is not inflation and has mostly consisted of used car prices.

Deflation is already in gear. You all are blinded by the little upside because you're not looking down into the hole from 2020. I'd say I'd feel bad watching you all get fleeced like I did in 2007...but at this point I'm happy to sell you overpriced real estate and buy it back when everything flips back like it has over and over since 1999.

Anyone want to buy some more gold I bought from the last bottom?

View attachment 35271

Q: Have you not wondered why "inflation" only affects some prices but not others?
A: No - inflation is a generalized phenomenon. Individual markets may vary item to item as the economy and supply chain is very complex and there are many products. The general them is rising prices.

The price of chicken is up 15% in the last 2 years.

If we measure from the dip, when the inflation really began, we can see that the price has risen considerably more than that.

I believe this is a combination of supply chain issues , lower production, and inflation of the money supply.

The price of chicken in 2017 and 2018 spiked above the current price. We are looking at a single commodity, so I can't explain what happened to Chicken prices at that moment, but there are many things which have reached new highs. Chicken constitutes about $30 of my monthly food budget.

Could you explain the pump and dump in more detail. Your idea is that the entire economy is being pumped so that it can then be dumped and retail investors lose? I was speaking of a bubble popping, is that different than a pump and dump? My understanding is a pump and dump is a little more intentional, whereas a bubble is more of a widespread phenomena.

I'm very open to prices crashing and us receiving a serious dose of inflation, but I can't agree that we've had deflation in the last 2 years.
 

paternos

Robin
Catholic
I can't agree that we've had deflation in the last 2 years.
In 1919, the English economist John Maynard Keynes called inflation a means by which "governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." If allowed to run out of control, the falling value of currency turns "the process of wealth-getting...into a gamble and a lottery."

Isn't that what all the talk about bitcoins and stocks is? A big gamble and lottery. Who is looking nowadays at dividends of a company? It's a lottery. The extreme valuations of tech growth stocks and all the cryptocoin is a sign of the inflationary time we are in.

Seems quite spot on to me.

Deflation is when the value of money rises.

This happens when production grows faster than money supply. Last year money supply grew with 50% and production declined strongly, that's inflation.

It's that simple.

Deflation arises when governments stop printing money (less money supply), when people go work again (more product & service supply) and/or demand declines (this is a short term deflationary effect, lower prices, companies then need to adjust to new lower demand and prices rise again)

It depends mostly on the federal reserve and government if deflation comes.

The Fed stops the printing press, if government opens te market, if people start to be more prudent with their money (e.g. if the Fed increases interest rates), if the people become inventive again producing more and better products with less people and less energy, deflation will come.

On the other hand, if the Fed keeps printing money in the current pace to devalue the loans, if government will keep locking us up, if the incentive system is benefitting those not working (welfare, equality) and taking loans (real instate), inflationary pressure is a lot higher.

I think personally all indicators point to inflation, but that might change. (i hope so as an inflationary economy is a sign of perversion)

So why do people talk about deflation? The rulers wants to portray themselves as if they are "fighting" deflation to fund their power grab, to devalue their loans and take a larger grip on society. It's propaganda.

Just open the main papers and news channel to see what they want you to think.

 
Last edited:

chance vought

Woodpecker
Protestant
The attack vector for Bitcoin is going to be similar to their attack vector on gold. They will paper-ize it.
This works with gold, but won't work for Bitcoin. The reason: gold is expensive to move, and difficult to divide into exact amounts for transactions. Maybe some people will buy paper Bitcoin, but it has no value to anyone else...there are far less people who will accept your paper Bitcoin, when sending and receiving the real thing is cheaper, easier, and a bearer instrument rather than an IOU.
They can do this by solving for the incovenience of buying/selling/storing Bitcoin - just like they did with gold. With gold they did this first through banks and then ultimately through centralized paper 'markets'. With Bitcoin I think they will do it by venture funding wallet companies and inventing and funding things like lightning (lightning was unnecessary to scale Bitcoin and actually made it less decentralized) at first. Eventually they will somehow move these various mechanisms of custody to a more central 'market'. Then they can print their CBDCs as they wish.
Lightning can be run by anyone. No big centralized nodes need to be run, the overwhelming majority of lightning nodes (20k?) have less than 1 BTC of liquidity. Something is necessary to scale transactions....if every person on Earth were transacting on main chain, they would be able to make only 1 transaction in a lifetime. Lightning offers limitless transactions, in seconds rather than hours, and is still a bearer instrument, not an IOU.
I'm also pretty convinced they already gained influence over the core developers - leading to things like the lightning network. The people who make decisions on Bitcoin are a small group of developers, miners, and large owners. It's highly likely they were bought off. Look into the history of Tether, the people behind Tether, and also the battle between Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin/Lightning Network and you'll likely come to a similar conclusion.

All that said, this attack vector will cause the price to go up because it is an 'if you can't beat them, join them' investment model. They are going to embrace Bitcoin, pump it, and slowly usurp it for their CBDCs. Then they can get back to their good old days of money printer go brrr.
If lightning network gets too centralized, plebs will simply run their own nodes and bypass the centralized ones that are charging too much or whatever...In the first month of the El Salvador rollout, it was the large 10 BTC+ nodes that were getting relentlessly attacked DDoS style, but transactions just routed through smaller nodes.

Side note: the expense and sophistication of the DDoS on Lightning nodes serving El Salvador suggests State actors. I think the Oligarchy is getting worried.
 
Last edited:

Bannic

 
Banned
Catholic
The U.S. Federal Reserve should tighten monetary policy at a faster pace in light of rising inflation risks, the International Monetary Fund said on Friday.

The Fed decided in early November to start tapering — which refers to a reduction in the amount of bonds it purchases — "later this month" at a pace of $15 billion every month. However, with the identification of a new Covid variant and inflation running above target, the IMF argued this pace should be accelerated.
 

kurtybro

Woodpecker
This works with gold, but won't work for Bitcoin. The reason: gold is expensive to move, and difficult to divide into exact amounts for transactions. Maybe some people will buy paper Bitcoin, but it has no value to anyone else...there are far less people who will accept your paper Bitcoin, when sending and receiving the real thing is cheaper, easier, and a bearer instrument rather than an IOU.

Lightning can be run by anyone. No big centralized nodes need to be run, the overwhelming majority of lightning nodes (20k?) have less than 1 BTC of liquidity. Something is necessary to scale transactions....if every person on Earth were transacting on main chain, they would be able to make only 1 transaction in a lifetime. Lightning offers limitless transactions, in seconds rather than hours, and is still a bearer instrument, not an IOU.

If lightning network gets too centralized, plebs will simply run their own nodes and bypass the centralized ones that are charging too much or whatever...In the first month of the El Salvador rollout, it was the large 10 BTC+ nodes that were getting relentlessly attacked DDoS style, but transactions just routed through smaller nodes.

Side note: the expense and sophistication of the DDoS on Lightning nodes serving El Salvador suggests State actors. I think the Oligarchy is getting worried.

What if they simply limit the on/off ramps to/from crypto / fiat, where you'd have to painstakingly "verify" (in banking kyc/aml terms) every btc transaction in your wallet in order to exchange it to fiat. What if there's a splitting of clean btc and unclean btc? We need perfect Fungibility.
I think the best thing that could happen is for denomination of goods/services in BTC instead of fiat, that will be the winner... The reason BTC is so volatile is because of fiat schizophrenia.
 

chance vought

Woodpecker
Protestant
What if they simply limit the on/off ramps to/from crypto / fiat, where you'd have to painstakingly "verify" (in banking kyc/aml terms) every btc transaction in your wallet in order to exchange it to fiat.
A likely attack when fiat starts crashing but look at Nigeria, it simply doesn't matter.
What if there's a splitting of clean btc and unclean btc? We need perfect Fungibility.
Game theory takes care of that. Most people who want btc don't care if it went through a coin join... In fact they PREFER it.
I think the best thing that could happen is for denomination of goods/services in BTC instead of fiat, that will be the winner... The reason BTC is so volatile is because of fiat schizophrenia.
This will happen, and has happened with the dollar against weaker currencies in Cuba, Venezuela and Argentina. People prefer dollars instead of the weaker native currency, and are willing to accept a discount for dollars. Bitcoin will supplant the dollar in this manner. Thiers' Law.
 

vstk

Sparrow
Catholic
I think people who put a lot of their savings in crypto should understand that it represents a bet that the vast majority of the crowd will not change its mind about it being a worthy store of value. It really is more about psychology that finance. And understand that if for some reason real yields get back to 3-5% at some point (after debt is inflated away for example) these non productive assets will be decimated with all else.
 

DeusLuxMeaEst

Pelican
Orthodox Catechumen
Gold Member
Gold is a metal and has been around since the beginning of time. In fact, if you were to choose ANY pure element as a store of value it would be gold (and to a lesser extent silver)

It's not very reactive, it's scarce, malleable, it doesn't tarnish, conducts heat and electricity, is dense and easy to store. When you look at all the historical options for something practical to use as money gold is it.

I guess you could use oil today but do you want to store gallons of oil on your property?

It was always just a practical choice as a store of value. A gold coin from 2000 years ago still has value.

I'm pro crypto, but more as an asset that gains in value, hard to preduct if it's really a store of value.
 
I think people who put a lot of their savings in crypto should understand that it represents a bet that the vast majority of the crowd will not change its mind about it being a worthy store of value. It really is more about psychology that finance. And understand that if for some reason real yields get back to 3-5% at some point (after debt is inflated away for example) these non productive assets will be decimated with all else.

Disagree. Fiat has next to zero memes and community associated with it. It's dead, depressing and frankly a little ghey. I get it, money needs to be serious, but when women. WOMEN are controlling your money, it's creation, dispersion, utilization.... referring to Yellen and LeGuard here...

Yeah I'll stick to bitcoin. Rather get broke with dignity than get rich like a cuck.
 
Top