Puerto Rico votes for statehood

[Duke Castile]

Robert High Hawk,

To me all of your points seem like "but it's not our fault".

I remain completely unpersuaded by the perpetual victimhood excuse.

The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve.

 

[ElFlaco]

Aside from he said she said arguments, where we simply disagree on your opinion on how the people are

Is it debatable that Puerto Ricans, as a whole, have a latin 'mañana' culture and tend to lack the work ethic of the mainland, have lower education attainments and have higher levels of government dependency? They like having citizenship and the ability to work anywhere in the US, but they don't have the same responsibilities as other American citizens (as has been outlined by others above). It's a sweet deal for them. The fact that they've voted to maintain the status quo all these years points towards that interpretation.

How would you actually get the US to have less to do with PR?

Is there some political reason why you see statehood and the commonwealth status quo as feasible but exclude independence? Independence for Puerto Rico could be a policy position of the United States. The steps to achieve that are political, nothing more. And if doing so is a political non-starter at the moment, then should we automatically embrace statehood?

And yes PR does have its own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

Two relevant points here:

1. Puerto Ricans, despite being part of the United States, have divided loyalties. They see themselves first as Puerto Ricans, only later as Americans. By contrast, Americans from the mainland see themselves first as Americans rather than identifying principally with their state. This is similar to what we see with naturalized immigrants who root for their home countries when they play against the US.

2. Puerto Ricans want to get the advantages of association with the US without the disadvantages. Having your own Olympic team obviously falls in this category.

By the way, while the island is ostensibly bilingual, levels of proficiency in English are low in reality. In many ways, Puerto Rico is more similar to the rest of Latin American than the mainland US.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

Aside from he said she said arguments, where we simply disagree on your opinion on how the people are

Is it debatable that Puerto Ricans, as a whole, have a latin 'mañana' culture and tend to lack the work ethic of the mainland, have lower education attainments and have higher levels of government dependency? They like having citizenship and the ability to work anywhere in the US, but they don't have the same responsibilities as other American citizens (as has been outlined by others above). It's a sweet deal for them. The fact that they've voted to maintain the status quo all these years points towards that interpretation.

How would you actually get the US to have less to do with PR?

Is there some political reason why you see statehood and the commonwealth status quo as feasible but exclude independence? Independence for Puerto Rico could be a policy position of the United States. The steps to achieve that are political, nothing more. And if doing so is a political non-starter at the moment, then should we automatically embrace statehood?

And yes PR does have its own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

Two relevant points here:

1. Puerto Ricans, despite being part of the United States, have divided loyalties. They see themselves first as Puerto Ricans, only later as Americans. By contrast, Americans from the mainland see themselves first as Americans rather than identifying principally with their state. This is similar to what we see with naturalized immigrants who root for their home countries when they play against the US.

2. Puerto Ricans want to get the advantages of association with the US without the disadvantages. Having your own Olympic team obviously falls in this category.

By the way, while the island is ostensibly bilingual, levels of proficiency in English are low in reality. In many ways, Puerto Rico is more similar to the rest of Latin American than the mainland US.

I clearly stated I am pro independence in my post. You are projecting that I am pro-statehood for whatever reason. We probably agree on more than you think.

Also, I never said there was no 'mañana' culture in Puerto Rico. Nor did I ever say that it economically comparable, or even educationally comparable, only that the college system was. I will correct that statement to say that SOME PR colleges are comparible to those in the USA.

Again, you are projecting a view point on me that simply doesn't exist. The lauditory remarks I made for Puerto Rico were in comparison to Latin and Central America, merely to point out that relatively speaking, it's not a total basket case. Furthermore, the regulatory hamstrings put on on Puerto Rico only exacerbate the problem.

If you want to have a constructive dialogue as to how to get Puerto Rico independent, I'm all for it. I think it starts with removing the outright predatory and nonsensical restrictions on Puerto Rico's economy. Then the bondholders who made risky loans to a shitty and corrupt Puerto Rican government, only because they knew they could lobby congress to prevent Puerto Rico from defaulting, can go fuck themselves. Then you could reduce the minimum wage.

Puerto Rico itself could then impose taxes on imports to invigorate it's own economy. I think it's viable and the best Puerto Ricans are those who have a strong national identity and pride in their Island, as well a cultural heritage that is worth preserving. That's why I favor independence for Puerto Rico.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

Robert High Hawk,

To me all of your points seem like "but it's not our fault".

I remain completely unpersuaded by the perpetual victimhood excuse.

The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve.

I wrote:

"I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them"

Not sure what else to say, but I'll make it perfectly clear: The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making. The government management of Puerto Rico is retarded, and the people who elected them to power are perhaps deliberately ignorant.

You seem to be projecting some view point I simply don't have. Where did I say that Puerto Ricans don't deserve the govt or leaders they have now? Where did I say that they are victims?

I said is there is a history of economic suppression by predatory regulations that have handicapped Puerto Rico's economic potential.

If you disagree that that was never the case, and that Jones Act and forced high minimum wage have not adversely affected the economy and contributed to it's current state, please expand on that - and I mean that sincerely as I am curious to learn the different arguments on this topic.

"The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve" - too bad that was not applied in the first half of the last century where they people wanted independence. It's just strange that was not valid then, yet there's no productive and realistic discussion about what to do about the situation now.

 

[DannyAlberta]

Robert high Hawk, I appreciate your points.

One thing I think you misunderstand is that I am by no means suggesting the United States should force independence on PR. That would be more disastrous than giving them state-hood at this point. PR is currently receiving US Federal assistance to the tune of $20B in order to help with its debt default and other social spending. The loss of the US dollar alone as the currency would be catastrophic for what remains of the island's struggling economy.

Moreover, the people of PR are recognized as US citizens and therefore have certain rights, including mobility rights to the mainland. Disenfranchising them of those rights would require both the Untied States and PR to agree in a referendum (where hopefully more than 1/3 of the people show up to vote). I doubt the US could do so of its own volition, even by an act of Congress.

PR is a US Territory. It has been for a long time. It should remain so at this point. My arguments against admission to the Union as a state don't require a change to that status quo. Assuming PR can clean up its mess a bit (with no small help from the United States), it may qualify for statehood one day. It may even decide to strike out on its own. But it is capable of neither right now.

Again, just a Canadian with an outside opinion.

 

[Samseau]

It was a mistake to keep Puerto Rico in the 1950's as a territory and we should cut them loose with bribes even if necessary.

 

[Kid Twist]

I said it earlier today and I'll say it again, the USA will be losing states before it gains any. 51 just sounds stupid, anyway.

Tito Puente was American, which means they're basically worthless anyway. Ok, Roberto Alomar. (-:

 

[ElFlaco]

The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making.

No. It's cultural. And politics is downstream of culture.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

Why? And what specifically do you have in mind? Is this of some value to the US?

 

[Once Was Not]

Sounds like a great way to:

1. Drastically accelerate the coming voting demographic shift towards eternal liberal hegemony in politics.
2. Drastically accelerate the 3rd world transition process of Florida. This place already feels like a foreign country. I'm sure somehow this will encourage more of them to come here.

Don't want them or their financial problems. Plus it could easily be the finishing strike for conservatives/Republicans in this country.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

Surely for the US to grant statehood to a territory, there must be some benefit to the US. So.... what's in it for USA?

Nothing. But the democrats get another 3 million voters, a congressman and 2 senators.

We used to get lots of soldiers from Puerto Rico. Huge influx in 20th century. 61k PRs served in Korea alone.

I'm not too sure if that tradition is still carrying.

Puerto Rico should remain a territory. A bunch of money lenders need to take a loss on all those bad loans provided, not the tax payers by way of a state bailout.

Puerto Ricans do contribute in outsized proportions to the US military, as far as I know. In Korea in particular they were heavily volunteered, and the Puerto Rican 65th Regiment covered the retreat of the Marines from the Chosin Resevior. That particular Regiment earned fully half of all the distinguished service crosses for the entire division during the Korean war for their actions covering the Marines retreat. In Korea they participated (and had more casualties) proportionally more than many US states.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making.

No. It's cultural. And politics is downstream of culture.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

Why? And what specifically do you have in mind? Is this of some value to the US?

Funny you say that. RooshV himself just had an article where he argued that it's the opposite. I would tend to agree with him since Puerto Rico's culture has been increasingly corrupted by the worst aspects of materialism and vapidity. Just as we see huge debt problems now in the US, by the way. Either way this particular point we may never agree on and I'm happy to respectfully disagree.

As for my statement, like it or not, Puerto Rico has been a US territory longer than certain states have existed. There are more Puerto Ricans in the USA than there are in Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rican legal and judicial code is the same as the US as well as a host of other similarities. Puerto Rican participation in the Armed Forces is significant, and to my knowledge they serve quite well - that deficit alone would not be made up easily since the Armed forces are already struggling to fill with qualified candidates.

I think granting increasing sovereignty to Puerto Rico, such that the state gets less and less affiliated legally, but not economically (assuming it's actually a free/fair trade setup, not based on aid), as well as maintaining a Military presence there with Puerto Ricans being able to serve, would be a good way to maintain relations.

That plan may be totally wrong, but it's some sort of idea on how to move forward. Danny Alberta also laid out a pretty good set of steps. I sincerely welcome differing well thought out opinions on this matter.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

Robert high Hawk, I appreciate your points.

One thing I think you misunderstand is that I am by no means suggesting the United States should force independence on PR. That would be more disastrous than giving them state-hood at this point. PR is currently receiving US Federal assistance to the tune of $20B in order to help with its debt default and other social spending. The loss of the US dollar alone as the currency would be catastrophic for what remains of the island's struggling economy.

Moreover, the people of PR are recognized as US citizens and therefore have certain rights, including mobility rights to the mainland. Disenfranchising them of those rights would require both the Untied States and PR to agree in a referendum (where hopefully more than 1/3 of the people show up to vote). I doubt the US could do so of its own volition, even by an act of Congress.

PR is a US Territory. It has been for a long time. It should remain so at this point. My arguments against admission to the Union as a state don't require a change to that status quo. Assuming PR can clean up its mess a bit (with no small help from the United States), it may qualify for statehood one day. It may even decide to strike out on its own. But it is capable of neither right now.

Again, just a Canadian with an outside opinion.

I am pro independence but agree with what you said, for not the best way is to keep status quo and right the ship, then have some serious dialogue. Like so many problems in the US right now this, this is turning very reactionary, and a real viable plan is not coming forward, so we just continue on this awful spiral downwards and then it doesn't matter weather or not Puerto Rico becomes a state because they'll all emigrate to the USA by then anyway.

The best short term solution that will keep Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico (thereby reducing the democratic vote), and make Puerto Ricans more content with their lives and less likely to vote for statehood, is by improving the lives of Puerto Ricans and not trying to make them culturally assimilate with the US.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

And yes PR does have its own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

Two relevant points here:

1. Puerto Ricans, despite being part of the United States, have divided loyalties. They see themselves first as Puerto Ricans, only later as Americans. By contrast, Americans from the mainland see themselves first as Americans rather than identifying principally with their state. This is similar to what we see with naturalized immigrants who root for their home countries when they play against the US.

2. Puerto Ricans want to get the advantages of association with the US without the disadvantages. Having your own Olympic team obviously falls in this category.

By the way, while the island is ostensibly bilingual, levels of proficiency in English are low in reality. In many ways, Puerto Rico is more similar to the rest of Latin American than the mainland US.

One quick last add:

1. Your first point is not very valid. For the notion of Federalism this isn't such an alien idea. If you read "Lone Survivor" Marcus Littrell makes it very clear that his first loyalty is to Texas, then the United States. Many people in Texas are like this.

But I kind of see your point. The Olympic team argument doesn't have much substance behind it though. I guarantee you that if every state could have their own national team, just like Puerto Ricans they would put together some kind of hoopla every 4 years, purely in the realm of sports, and leave it there just for that.

Interesting fact: Puerto Rico has won or finalled in the Miss World and Miss Universe pageant more per capita than any other country in the world. Let's remember what's important here!!!

 

[beta_plus]

It was a mistake to keep Puerto Rico in the 1950's as a territory and we should cut them loose with bribes even if necessary.

All we would have had to say later was "Whatever the USSR is offering, we'll double it."

We had the money to do that back then.

 

[TheOllam]

Puerto Rico is strategically significant given real regional issues in Haiti, Cuba and Venezuela. There's no way U.S. interests would drop this hot potato. But it's only cheaper to keep PR if we fix the problems.

The territory does need structural financial reform. Puerto Rico bonds provide tax free interest to owners, and the debt is constitutionally guaranteed by the government, allowing massive growth towards this un-payable amount today.

The investors that continued to fund the debt faced real default risk and it has come true. I estimate the noise for statehood being generated by monied NY interests that have the most institutional cash to lose on PR default.

Let's change the tax status on PR bonds and start finding fresh sources capital for investment in the island. There's a better way than this old bond program spawned out of the last century's demands.

 

[Duke Castile]

Robert High Hawk,

To me all of your points seem like "but it's not our fault".

I remain completely unpersuaded by the perpetual victimhood excuse.

The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve.

I wrote:

"I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them"

Not sure what else to say, but I'll make it perfectly clear: The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making. The government management of Puerto Rico is retarded, and the people who elected them to power are perhaps deliberately ignorant.

You seem to be projecting some view point I simply don't have. Where did I say that Puerto Ricans don't deserve the govt or leaders they have now? Where did I say that they are victims?

I said is there is a history of economic suppression by predatory regulations that have handicapped Puerto Rico's economic potential.

If you disagree that that was never the case, and that Jones Act and forced high minimum wage have not adversely affected the economy and contributed to it's current state, please expand on that - and I mean that sincerely as I am curious to learn the different arguments on this topic.

"The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve" - too bad that was not applied in the first half of the last century where they people wanted independence. It's just strange that was not valid then, yet there's no productive and realistic discussion about what to do about the situation now.

Your words were "Puerto Rico never had a chance". Sounds like victimhood to me.

You seem to tell everyone they are "projecting".

You keep arguing for statehood while saying you are not pro statehood.

Finally regarding your last comment, it's obvious PR's didn't deserve independence.

 

[BostonBMW]

Before one judges me as a PR apologist, I want to first state unequivocally that I whole heartedly agree with the points laid out by Fisto and the article mentioned by Tokyo Joe.

Danny Alberta in particular laid out some very relevant facts about Puerto Rico.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

That being said, this "fuck them" attitude is rather ignorant. Puerto Rico and the USA did not magically appear in this situation yesterday - Surprise surprise. It takes two to tango. Some history and context is in order:

1. Puerto Rico never, at any point, voluntarily joined the United States of America. There is little to no intrinsic national and cultural heritage to the US.

2. Puerto Rico would have GLADLY gotten independence had they been able to do so, right up until the 1950s. Let me say that again: most Puerto Ricans wanted to leave the USA, but the USA would not let them. So frankly now that sentiment has reversed, this "kick em out!" rhetoric is rather hallow and utterly meaningless.

3. In response to a growing nationalist movement, which culminated in an armed March on Congress and an the attempted assasination of Eisenhower, the USA's response was to severely and brutally suppress the Puerto Rican national movement, and placate the Puerto Ricans by dumping massive amounts of welfare on the Island (in addition to testing Agent Orange on the island, but that's a story for another day...). This created a ridiculous welfare state that exists today. The USA was scared shitless of another Cuba emerging, and did not let Puerto Rico become more independant and basically bribed the people into submission. Think of the mindset this cultivates over 3 generations now. Related...

4. Since it's existence, Puerto Rico has been crushed by bullshit federal regulation designed to protect American business interests. The Jones act requires any vessel inbound or outbound from Puerto Rico to stop on a mainland port first. That immediately makes foreign imports to Puerto Rico more expensive, as well as kills a huge source of revenue from transit cargo ships. This alone would have a huge positive impact on PRs economy. Why does it still exist? Bullshit Business lobbyists are preventing it from doing so. Some estimates are that PR loses BILLIONS because of this.
Another quick example is sugar. Puerto Rico used to be a mega sugar producer. Now they make hardly any. Why? Sugar subsidies to mainland farmers. Aside from the jobs lost, the industrial technical knowledge, workmanship, and work culture associated with this labor intensive industry is gone.
Finally on this point, and this is something that all RVF should agree with, congress MANDATED Puerto Rico raise it's minimum wage to the federal level. Puerto Rico never had an economy as robust or rich as the mainland, so now the minimum wage being too high just killed a lot of jobs, or simply grew the informal economy. Puerto Rico never wanted any of this.

Before we talk about how "screwed up" Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans are, let's take an honest look at what is heavily contributing to it: Never even having a fighting chance.

One could argue that the USA made up for it by giving welfare, benefits etc... but that only created the dependency mindset you see today.

5. Relative to Latin and Central America, Puerto Rico has one of the highest per capita GDPs, even if you remove federal/state employment. Not saying it's some economic paradise, but it's certainly got potential.

6. The admittedly over-funded University system is probably one of the best in Latin/Central America, and even competitive with USA universities. USA recruiters are now flocking into PR to scoop up teachers, doctors etc... since they know they can higher them cheap. This only drains the PR talent and tax base and lowers wages in the US. Lose Lose.

7. The Puerto Rican economy is bad, for sure, but those stats do not tell the full story. There is a very large informal economy that exists, and while it's not accounted for, people still do things and work in PR, they just don't give their slice to the Man, since they know the gov is corrupt. Puerto Ricans (in general) are absolute suckers for materialistic Bullshit they see in Malls and Walmart. It's disgusting and sad, but my point is that these places in Puerto Rico are packed and doing record profit, so the money must be coming from somewhere.

7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture (Abortion is illegal and so is gay marriage in PR). There is "poverty" in the statistical sense, but the standard of living for people is really not so bad, since family structure and community still exists and people take care of each other. It's sad to see fast food chains becoming so popular there, but in the rural areas people seem incredibly fit and simply don't age.

- Alright I'm kind of droning on at this point, but hopefully this serves to slightly educate people that this awful situation is at least substantially the making of the US. Again, I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them. There are real and easy things that the USA could do to re-invigorate the Puerto Rican economy that would bring Puerto Ricans back to Puerto Rico and help them get out of debt. I suspect that won't happen, because at this point corporations are LOVING all the new cheap "American" labor that Puerto Rico provides.

Puerto Rico is a great place worth looking into for relocation, despite the doomsday news, it's one of the nicest places I've ever been to. Particularly if you are interested in developing agriculture, there is tremendous opportunity there.

PS: @BostonBMW you are incorrect about the PR Flag. It's a historically Spanish derived flag. If you look at the flags of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Catalonia, they all have the same design.

*** FIN ***

I was referring to the red, white, and blue color scheme along with the stars and stripes identical to the U.S. flag:

[attachment=36920]

However since we're getting technical and calling each other out, lets review:

You are wrong about the Spanish origins of the current Puerto Rican Flag. It was attributed to the Puerto Rican Revolutionary Committee in New York City.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Puerto_Rico

In 1952, Governor Luis Muñoz Marín and his administration adopted the Puerto Rican flag which was originally designed in 1892, and proclaimed it the official flag of Puerto Rico. The official adaptation of the flag has been interpreted by some as a ploy by Muñoz Marin to neutralize the independence movement in his own party. There were some differences between the original flag of 1892 and the one of 1952 and the meaning of the colors was officially changed. Now the white bars stood for the republican form of government, rather than representing the victory and peace that Puerto Ricans were supposed to have after gaining independence. The sky-blue of the triangle in the original flag was changed to dark blue, resembling that of the flag of the United States, to keep it distanced from its revolutionary roots. For nationalist leader Pedro Albizu Campos, having the flag represent the government was a desecration, while the independence party accused the government of "corrupting beloved symbols".

Don't trust Wikipedia? Go directly to the source and check (I have): "Luis Muñoz Marín: Puerto Rico's Democratic Revolution" Published by Editorial UPR, 2006

So lets get the facts straight: The official Puerto Rican flag is a derivative of the United States Flag.

 

[BostonBMW]

Before one judges me as a PR apologist, I want to first state unequivocally that I whole heartedly agree with the points laid out by Fisto and the article mentioned by Tokyo Joe.

Danny Alberta in particular laid out some very relevant facts about Puerto Rico.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

That being said, this "fuck them" attitude is rather ignorant. Puerto Rico and the USA did not magically appear in this situation yesterday - Surprise surprise. It takes two to tango. Some history and context is in order:

1. Puerto Rico never, at any point, voluntarily joined the United States of America. There is little to no intrinsic national and cultural heritage to the US.

2. Puerto Rico would have GLADLY gotten independence had they been able to do so, right up until the 1950s. Let me say that again: most Puerto Ricans wanted to leave the USA, but the USA would not let them. So frankly now that sentiment has reversed, this "kick em out!" rhetoric is rather hallow and utterly meaningless.

3. In response to a growing nationalist movement, which culminated in an armed March on Congress and an the attempted assasination of Eisenhower, the USA's response was to severely and brutally suppress the Puerto Rican national movement, and placate the Puerto Ricans by dumping massive amounts of welfare on the Island (in addition to testing Agent Orange on the island, but that's a story for another day...). This created a ridiculous welfare state that exists today. The USA was scared shitless of another Cuba emerging, and did not let Puerto Rico become more independant and basically bribed the people into submission. Think of the mindset this cultivates over 3 generations now. Related...

4. Since it's existence, Puerto Rico has been crushed by bullshit federal regulation designed to protect American business interests. The Jones act requires any vessel inbound or outbound from Puerto Rico to stop on a mainland port first. That immediately makes foreign imports to Puerto Rico more expensive, as well as kills a huge source of revenue from transit cargo ships. This alone would have a huge positive impact on PRs economy. Why does it still exist? Bullshit Business lobbyists are preventing it from doing so. Some estimates are that PR loses BILLIONS because of this.
Another quick example is sugar. Puerto Rico used to be a mega sugar producer. Now they make hardly any. Why? Sugar subsidies to mainland farmers. Aside from the jobs lost, the industrial technical knowledge, workmanship, and work culture associated with this labor intensive industry is gone.
Finally on this point, and this is something that all RVF should agree with, congress MANDATED Puerto Rico raise it's minimum wage to the federal level. Puerto Rico never had an economy as robust or rich as the mainland, so now the minimum wage being too high just killed a lot of jobs, or simply grew the informal economy. Puerto Rico never wanted any of this.

Before we talk about how "screwed up" Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans are, let's take an honest look at what is heavily contributing to it: Never even having a fighting chance.

One could argue that the USA made up for it by giving welfare, benefits etc... but that only created the dependency mindset you see today.

5. Relative to Latin and Central America, Puerto Rico has one of the highest per capita GDPs, even if you remove federal/state employment. Not saying it's some economic paradise, but it's certainly got potential.

6. The admittedly over-funded University system is probably one of the best in Latin/Central America, and even competitive with USA universities. USA recruiters are now flocking into PR to scoop up teachers, doctors etc... since they know they can higher them cheap. This only drains the PR talent and tax base and lowers wages in the US. Lose Lose.

7. The Puerto Rican economy is bad, for sure, but those stats do not tell the full story. There is a very large informal economy that exists, and while it's not accounted for, people still do things and work in PR, they just don't give their slice to the Man, since they know the gov is corrupt. Puerto Ricans (in general) are absolute suckers for materialistic Bullshit they see in Malls and Walmart. It's disgusting and sad, but my point is that these places in Puerto Rico are packed and doing record profit, so the money must be coming from somewhere.

7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture (Abortion is illegal and so is gay marriage in PR). There is "poverty" in the statistical sense, but the standard of living for people is really not so bad, since family structure and community still exists and people take care of each other. It's sad to see fast food chains becoming so popular there, but in the rural areas people seem incredibly fit and simply don't age.

- Alright I'm kind of droning on at this point, but hopefully this serves to slightly educate people that this awful situation is at least substantially the making of the US. Again, I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them. There are real and easy things that the USA could do to re-invigorate the Puerto Rican economy that would bring Puerto Ricans back to Puerto Rico and help them get out of debt. I suspect that won't happen, because at this point corporations are LOVING all the new cheap "American" labor that Puerto Rico provides.

Puerto Rico is a great place worth looking into for relocation, despite the doomsday news, it's one of the nicest places I've ever been to. Particularly if you are interested in developing agriculture, there is tremendous opportunity there.

PS: @BostonBMW you are incorrect about the PR Flag. It's a historically Spanish derived flag. If you look at the flags of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Catalonia, they all have the same design.

*** FIN ***

Your condescending "education" is based on the same anti-colonialist diatribes that have littered academia in the Post War period. Nothing original here. Sure, you shrewdly attempt to hedge your comments by stating that you support Independence for PR yet the bulk of your arguments are standard fare apologist. So, I'll take a different tack - Lets say we concede all your arguments about the big bad colonist U.S. royally exploiting Puerto Rico and it's economy (once the 'beacon' of the Caribbean). However that very same United States granted Ricans full citizenship and mobility to the United States. Surely, as the first Hispanic origin group to be legally allowed into the United States, Puerto Riquenos would have a leg up on other, later arriving immigrants from Central and South America? Surely, their legal status, affirmative action preferences would translate into a seamless societal/economic integration into the United States:

In 1990 the relative condition of Puerto Ricans had improved somewhat, but they still had the highest poverty rate of any group on the mainland, and an unemployment rate higher than that of Mexicans, Cubans, and other Hispanics, though not quite as high as that of Blacks. Island-based Puerto-Ricans were worse off than mainland groups by every measure.

In 1990, mainland Puerto Rican income was 66 percent the level observed among non-Hispanic Whites, but by 2008 had risen to 69 percent. Relative to Cubans, the highest-income Hispanic group, mainland Puerto Rican incomes rose from 75 percent to 91 percent. During this period, poverty also fell considerably for mainland Puerto Ricans, though they still had one of the highest rates among groups examined here.

Unemployment fell for mainland Puerto Ricans from 1990 to 2008, both absolutely and relative to non-Hispanic Whites. However, the decrease in unemployment was not as dramatic as that for some other groups, such as Mexicans, whose rate dropped 2 percentage points from 7 percent to 5 percent.

Source: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/...10/demo/collazo-ryan-bauman-paa2010-paper.pdf

I can share other sources if the census bureau is tainted in some manner.

So what are the new set of excuses for the Puertoriquenos in the United States? Racism? Whitey keeping them down even vis-a-vis other Hispanic groups?

I stand by my earlier statement that Puerto Rico combines the worst of low achievement and an undeserved sense of American style entitlement. Other Central and South American/Hispanic migrant groups have achieved more socioeconomically while facing greater challenges with respect to immigration, societal acceptance (See Nuyoricans), and language barriers.

So lets get real here, Puerto Rico is a net negative for the United States.

 

[Robert High Hawk]

Well this discussion has become quite spirited!

First off, @Fisto, and @El Flaco, I would like to apologize for using and retract the term "projecting". That's condescending psychobabble, and it was in poor form to use it. "Mischaracterizing my argument" would have been better.

Now to address the points at hand.

@Fisto, you dismiss my entire argument, picked out a single line, and ignored the outright and direct primary fault I subscribe concerning, as well as my concurrence with the facts stated by the majority of posters.

That is your choice to do so, however I can only disagree at this point. Let's take the particular line you singled out of context to dismiss my argument: ""Puerto Rico never had a chance". I said that in the context of deleterious government policies imposed on the island that keep it from it's economic potential. Is this not a point that regardless of one's political opinion, is worth acknowledging has exacerbated poor governance? Puerto Rico will never be on par with the US.
If you want to go into some of the insane PR government policies and facts, happy to do so. It would be a long read, but my sense was that most readers here are interested specifically in how this situation relates to the USA.
Also, you clearly don't want Puerto Rico to be a state (neither do I), yet you said that PR didn't "deserve" independence in 1950. What is your point here? Are you pro-Puerto Rican Independence or not? Or only now but not back then? If so why?

My argument is that it takes two to tango in any dysfunctional relationship, and we should write the ship, get Puerto Rico off of welfare/subsidies, remove economic handicaps and then slowly grant greater autonomy in the direction of Independence.

Again, heartily welcome other serious courses of action here for a substantive discussion how to fix this, rather than focusing on who is a victim and who is not. If I came across as condescending, my bad. Let's hopefully move forward in a productive direction.

@Boston BMW

You are ascribing things to me that I never said. Did I ever say that Puerto Rico is not a net drain on the USA? Did I ever say Puerto Ricans as a whole are some magical minority group that is great for America? What exactly are you talking about here?

As for being anti-colonialist, Puerto Rico has ALWAYS been a Colony, so I think you are characterizing my tact. I had the audacity to mention faulty US policy that has exacerbated an already lesser achieving economy in Puerto Rico, and has increased migration from the mainland as well as handicapped the Puerto Rican economy. Did I ever claim Puerto Rico would be equal to the US or worthy of statehood otherwise?

A great way to discourage Puerto Ricans out of the continental US would be to find a realistic way to improve the situation there. I don't think US culture and Puerto Rican (latin) culture is very compatible, and whatever steps we can do to preserve and strengthen both separately, starting with poor policy reformation, by BOTH the US and Puerto Rico, would go a long way. Please (sincerely) don't read into that statement more than just what it says.

Finally regarding the flag thing, I think a minor color tweek vs an entire design does not make the PR flag derivative of the US flag. It's derivative of Spanish flags, with a US inspired color. Fair?

I sincerely hope we can get some substantive ideas on how to move forward realistically. Too many potential Miss World and Miss Universes are at stake here, as well as some pretty outstanding Salsa music.

 

[BostonBMW]

Robert High Hawk,

Your comments are in bold:

@Boston BMW

You are ascribing things to me that I never said. Did I ever say that Puerto Rico is not a net drain on the USA? Did I ever say Puerto Ricans as a whole are some magical minority group that is great for America? What exactly are you talking about here?

Again, if you read through the thread, the main point of discussion is about how the addition of the Puerto Rico as a state. I argue that Ricans (both in the Mainland and on the Island) detract from the United States. This was before your diatribe against the policies of the United States being cause PR's economic malaise. Comprende?

As for being anti-colonialist, Puerto Rico has ALWAYS been a Colony, so I think you are characterizing my tact. I had the audacity to mention faulty US policy that has exacerbated an already lesser achieving economy in Puerto Rico, and has increased migration from the mainland as well as handicapped the Puerto Rican economy. Did I ever claim Puerto Rico would be equal to the US or worthy of statehood otherwise?


PR has been a Commonwealth not a colony in legal terms. Puerto Ricans are not subjects of the U.S. -- they enjoy full citizenship rights and free mobility. You followed the stock academic/liberal argument that Colonies have been exploited by the Imperial power (U.S.) – even if we accept your argument, I ask what have the Puerto Ricans achieved collectively once they arrived in the Mainland, with significantly more economic opportunities? They remained laggards even among later arriving Hispanic migrant groups. Therefore, I question the veracity of your argument that the policies of the United States are primarily and directly at fault for the Puerto Rico’s economic woes. Did American policies impact PR negatively? Sure. However the primary cause is linked to poor/corrupt governance and the societal shadow markets outside of government purview.

A great way to discourage Puerto Ricans out of the continental US would be to find a realistic way to improve the situation there. I don't think US culture and Puerto Rican (latin) culture is very compatible, and whatever steps we can do to preserve and strengthen both separately, starting with poor policy reformation, by BOTH the US and Puerto Rico, would go a long way. Please (sincerely) don't read into that statement more than just what it says.

While I agree with the spirit of your statement, I forward a different approach. We cannot be tasked with “improving” the situation there any longer. We should be devolving power to PR with the eventual planning for their independence. United States involvement in PR has yielded nothing but criticisms from the left/anti-colonialists such as yourself, therefore, we need to do the right thing and let PR become independent so that they can self-govern, make decisions to improve their country. Most of all, this dependency relationship needs to end.


Finally regarding the flag thing, I think a minor color tweek vs an entire design does not make the PR flag derivative of the US flag. It's derivative of Spanish flags, with a US inspired color. Fair?

I presented evidence backing up my assertions, where’s your evidence or is this pure conjecture? The flag of PR is a variant of the U.S. flag and not too dissimilar to flag of Ohio. By your logic, are you also going to claim the flag of Ohio is also a derivative of Spanish Flags?

[attachment=36923]

You can keep stubbornly sticking to your unsupported claims, however the reality is starkly different.

I sincerely hope we can get some substantive ideas on how to move forward realistically. Too many potential Miss World and Miss Universes are at stake here, as well as some pretty outstanding Salsa music.

The way forward is for the United States to increase home rule and most importantly, local responsibility to the Puerto Rican people and the officials they elect. Eventually the commonwealth status needs to come to an end. The relationship with PR should evolve into the relationship that we have with Liberia.

Also, I’ll be fact checking some of your earlier claims as time permits.