Purity obsession

BigHead1688

Chicken
Catholic
I suppose you have two options.

1) Break if off. If you don't see yourself able to accept her past, it will probably drive you crazy in the long run. Short term pain and the risk of never being married, but it's probably a better path than being with a woman you don't trust and can't respect.

2) Move past it and propose marriage to her, with the condition that you will both wait until you are married before engaging in any sexual behaviour again. You have to first be able to trust yourself to move past her prior behaviour, and you have to be able to trust her and that she truly regrets her past and understands why it is so damaging.

There isn't any in between option. "I'll continue dating and fornicating with her for 6 more months and then I will make my decision" is not an option.

Pray on it, seek guidance, talk to her, and think deeply on it for a couple of weeks. Neither option is right or wrong - it depends completely on what you are able to tolerate. If she doesn't want to get married or needs a bunch of time to think about it, take that as a sign that you need to move on.
Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I completely agree with these options and will choose one or the other, with one caveat: If I were to choose the second option, I would not propose marriage but rather chaste courtship. While I've known this woman for a few years, I've only been dating her for a couple of months. If I were to continue this, it would be very cautiously over an extended period of time.

Yeah i don't know what to say....you're kinda in a pickle of your own making and clearly got some conflicting emotions going on...which are clouding your judgement because you've already engaged in some carnal interaction with this woman.

I'll offer the below thoughts, not in judgement, just my own opinion and hope you're able to have the discernment to do the best with what you've got.

Raped 4 x by 4 different dudes...

Lord have mercy.

That's a lot of drama and baggage. I mean, I would want to wonder how she was in the situation where that happened not 1x or even 2x... but 4 x.

This sounds like a very broken situation.

I certainly have had succumbed to a lot of temptation in my life, especially after I got divorced and was a single guy exiting the military.... so I dont cast judgement on your situation, merely hope that you'll recognize if you keep engaging in this sort of transactions in your attempt toward "courtship" youll keep attracting women who are not providing the sort of chastitity you want.

For me, once I got out of my whoring phase post divorce I had a rule with someone I would be willing to date....or court (ideally, which means no sexual contact) ... if you will.... They had to be able to count their partners on one hand. It was of course hypocritical for me to expect that of a woman given the multitude of my own sins.... but that was what I was willing to tolerate. Whatever that condition is, it needs to be something you can live with where you know you can trust the person... otherwise you'll always wonder what if. With my wife now, she had kids from her first marriage, was very recently divorced and. when I met her, and we were introduced through family and I could trust her when I did have that conversation with her later... Also by the time that conversation occured, we were both in the process of inquiring into Orthodoxy and had made that the center of the relationship... from the moment we began speaking to each other I had zero doubts about trust, her sincerity in everything, and no concerns. So there's that compared to the circumstances you're describing.

I "dated" a couple of girls, if you will, in my periods before really focusing on my faith and always found that when the women had circumstances anywhere near what you are describing it was both too much for me to handle mentally, and when I asked myself "Is this someone I would be willing to bring a life into this world with?" the answer was an overwhelmingly strong "NO WAY".... once you realize that, your mind should say "OK time to cut if off"

I am sorry this woman has these issues, but as this information was presented to you, frankly I would wonder how much of it was done to manipulate you into the "savior" complex. Excuse my cynicism.... but this sort of tactic happens A LOT with BPD women who try and manipulate you through telling you how they've overcome adversity in their life ect.... its a ploy to get you to put them on a pedestal and then disassociate them from the agency that they rightfully have in their own circumstances and decision making.

I mean raped 4x by 4 different men? That truly is terrible, and I really mean I feel sorry for that woman.... but I would not put myself in a situation where YOU are responsible for helping this person get through the pain and anguish they must know and go through because of this. I don't say any of that to belittle or blame the person for that.... but you get to choose what you will and won't entertain as a potential mate.

You've said it yourself, you need to get out of it. So do this before it gets worse. Once there is doubt in a relationship... there is NO doubt it's time to move on. Trust me, you do not want to do what I did which is marry a young beautiful crazy woman with a high round count who winds up having a secular hypergamous moment and pooping all in your cornflakes by filing for divorce. Better to try and remove yourself from that situation in a tactful/respectful/kind way.

Next time, seriously try and prevent things from getting physically intimate. It may happen that you indeed wind up falling into that temptation, but the better you do to avoid this, the clearer your mind will be in assessing the person's mental state and fitness to be a spouse.

Also, just to go one step further to make you realize where you are based off what you've said.... I would get yourself tested for STD's. Not to sound ugly, but if her history is what you describe, you likely have something and don't know it (Trichomoniasis being one you probably havent been tested for but probably have). I've seen a lot of this with the Marines I knew who had wives/girlfriends with more loose pasts.

Clearly living in sin with this woman is a contradiction to your faith and values. Stop doing this, as the wages of sin are death.... and you clearly are bothered by what youre doing, as you should be.

As far as chastity during courtship..... I cant really say. The below may be TMI, and I almost didn't type it, but I'll level with you just from my own experience with the hope this helps. I don't say this to make excuses or justify, merely show the complexity of life and the reality we live in now with sexual immorality being so prevalent in our culutre.

It's hard once one has bitten of the fruit not to take another bite.... but not impossible. When I met my now wife, I told her after the first "date" that if she wanted to continue to see me, we needed to pursue Orthodoxy and inquire. Covid happened as we were inquiring and due to life circumstances we were civilly married. Before the churches opened up and we became catechumens we had inquired at a chruch and the priest at least knew our genuine desire to become Orthodox and we had spoken a couple times about how to proceed as best we could while respacing the sanctity of the Church's process and the reality of life circumstances we were in with children from previous marriages, being engaged then civilly married ect... needless to say it was a very non-standard courtship. Obviously the church didn't bless the civil ceremony and any physcial itimacy we had pre babtism and crowning ceremony was considered fornication. Our priest worked with us to understand the constraints we were dealing with regarding the children we both had from previous marriages, and the sincerity of our pursuits to become Orthodox and with time we became catechumens once the Churches opend back up. Once catechumens, we did the best we could to be abstemious over the course of the year before baptism, and once baptized we repented of our past sins during our pre-Orthodox life having been civilly married and then intimate ect....and did remain chaste until our wedding ceremony after baptism.... My circumstances are a little bit different than the traditional Orthodox process, and maybe some on here whom were able to do the correct and right thing in the traditional way. None the less... I don't make excuses for the life choices I made, I've dealt with them through confession and ultimately brought my wife now, our 5 kinds that we've blended together into a new family unit, and the baby that is soon to be born into the Church.... so God worked that out for me and my family ultimately, and though we didn't do everything in a 100% perfect way, we got there eventually to making things right in the eyes of the Church and did so in earnest the best we could. I'm not saying the above is what anyone SHOULD Do... merely what happened to me in my case.

The above may not provide you any complete answers, but show that there is always complexity to these sorts of situations when living in a fallen world. If you are doing the best you can to avoid temptation of conjugal interaction, chances are you'll be able to judge the sincerity of the person whom you're dating and ascertain their genuine level of repentance. For this girl.... I dont know how I would ever overcome the trauma of raped 4x by 4 differend dudes. I have a cop friend who's wife was abused as a young girl. Its really a sad sad scene when she goes through her swings... and he has no control over his household because of it.

I would move on and get over the fear of being alone, as you're mentality shows me that you've gotten more concern with your insecurities than you do your strenghts as a man and your faith.
Thank you for this extended and vulnerable response. I think that my main takeaway from this is that christ/faith NEEDS to be the center of a relationship, maybe even more so when one or both parties have a broken past.

I am right there with you when it comes to the reaction to hearing about her being raped 4x by 4 different men. To be raped even 1x would make me question her judgement, but 4x... there must be more to the story. @7-5 @Sephorax As some other responders mentioned, she may be lying, she may have been groomed or something, I don't know. I will inquire further, keeping in mind that she may not tell the truth.

@prisonplanet It came as an incredible shock to hear all this since she comes from an intact family that from my albeit limited experience seems very wholesome and relatively faithful. She claims to have been on the right path now for ~2.5 years. Regardless, the sinning stops from here on.

@Sephorax For context, we are both 23 yeas old, so it isn't exactly a situation where she hit the wall and is looking for beta bux, though it seems likely she felt used and that prompted her return to the faith.

I spoke with her last night and she said that she would understand if I couldn't be with her because of her past. I told her I didn't have an answer for her yet. We had an in-depth emotional discussion that ended with her making her case for being my woman, and she successfully appealed to my emotions. She put herself forward quite a bit, saying that she thinks I would make a great husband and father, and accurately surmising that I have a deep longing for romantic love that I try to hide. She reiterated her desire to provide that love. Now I feel like if I break it off (the logical, safe choice), I could be missing out on something I desire very deeply. Please tell me I'm just young and naive.

The options are still: Break off our exclusive relationship

or,

Allow the courtship to continue, with iron conditions regarding chastity. This option would really put her to the test to see if she is on the straight and narrow. The challenge would be making sure I was confident she wasn't getting involved in any extra curriculars behind my back.
This could be tough. Before going forward with this option I would express all of this and put the onus on her to prove her faithfulness.


Thank you all very much for helping me sort this out. @Dovetail I will be checking out those posts.
 

BigHead1688

Chicken
Catholic
@EntWife Thank you for the warning. I can't believe I didn't think of that. For the two years I've known her, she has been a very reasonable person, but I now see the risk in discussing that with her...

Since the alleged rapes, she had one long term boyfriend who allegedly cheated on her, and she didn't accuse him of anything. No one considers her to be "nuts", she really doesn't seem like the kind of girl that would throw me under the bus, but I can't be too careful. Would removing myself gently like you suggested really prevent me from being retaliated against? My gut instinct is to bring this all up with her, but you've made me realize that that could be a disastrous mistake...


@messaggera Thank you for this very straightforward and enlightening observation. I think you're right about me and my life focus being on enjoyment rather than christ. I will contemplate this.


I will be checking the ladies forum if either of you have more input. Thanks.
 

prisonplanet

Woodpecker
Other Christian
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say you CAN be too careful. Marriage is a big risk but if there's ever a big risk worth taking, it's the best one. Sounds like she has a good reputation, is close with her family, and is wanting to do right. If you really like her, court her for a while. Here's one of my favorite movie scenes that I think really encapsulates what keeps people from getting married and starting families. I'm not taking away from the risks, I'm saying sometimes the risks are worth it.

 

BigHead1688

Chicken
Catholic
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say you CAN be too careful. Marriage is a big risk but if there's ever a big risk worth taking, it's the best one. Sounds like she has a good reputation, is close with her family, and is wanting to do right. If you really like her, court her for a while. Here's one of my favorite movie scenes that I think really encapsulates what keeps people from getting married and starting families. I'm not taking away from the risks, I'm saying sometimes the risks are worth it.


Thank you for this input. I recognize the error being realized by that character in that scene, and that's why I'm reluctant to let her go. More discernment is needed.
 

Beyond Borders

Crow
Gold Member
I just found out that this girl has been raped 4 separate times by 4 separate men, and she has 2 other sexual partners that I know of.

No, she has not. I'm sorry, but this girl is a liar and the worst kind to be entangled with in today's society.

Getting actually raped (not "metoo" raped) is very rare. 4 times? Highly, highly, highly suspect story and a major red flag that should send you running instantly. Letting her into your life isn't just an error in judgement but is a risk to your money, your future, your sanity, your freedom. Run.

/endofthread in my opinion.
 

prisonplanet

Woodpecker
Other Christian
No, she has not. I'm sorry, but this girl is a liar and the worst kind to be entangled with in today's society.

Getting actually raped (not "metoo" raped) is very rare. 4 times? Highly, highly, highly suspect story and a major red flag that should send you running instantly. Letting her into your life isn't just an error in judgement but is a risk to your money, your future, your sanity, your freedom. Run.

/endofthread in my opinion.

The thread was actually about a different poster's situation.
 

Beyond Borders

Crow
Gold Member
The thread was actually about a different poster's situation.

Ahhhh... My bad. I reread that sentence a couple times, confused. That makes more sense now. lol

To OP, I'd still say the girl leaving another guy for you is a pretty big red flag. I could never take a woman seriously that left another man for me and/or cheated on her man with me.
 
Last edited:

BigHead1688

Chicken
Catholic
No, she has not. I'm sorry, but this girl is a liar and the worst kind to be entangled with in today's society.

Getting actually raped (not "metoo" raped) is very rare. 4 times? Highly, highly, highly suspect story and a major red flag that should send you running instantly. Letting her into your life isn't just an error in judgement but is a risk to your money, your future, your sanity, your freedom. Run.

/endofthread in my opinion.
I agree with this, I think my emotional brain is trying to find a way to keep her around. One thing I wonder is why she told me about it all in the first place. If she was looking to entrap me, wouldn't she hide this information? She claims to have straightened her life out since those events.
 

Beyond Borders

Crow
Gold Member
I agree with this, I think my emotional brain is trying to find a way to keep her around. One thing I wonder is why she told me about it all in the first place. If she was looking to entrap me, wouldn't she hide this information? She claims to have straightened her life out since those events.

Women are highly emotional by nature, and she has probably already convinced herself it's true.

They don't always "plan" to entrap you (unless they are completely sociopathic). They just do it when their feelings change and rationalize it away. That's why actions always speak louder than words -- she can say whatever she wants, but convincing herself that 4 separate men actually raped her and then using that as a way to explain away past transgressions to other men is alarming behavior.

I tend to be a pretty forgiving person but that's next level as far as red flags go.
 

prisonplanet

Woodpecker
Other Christian
It sounds like she has straightened things out at least on the surface. I won't go so far as to say she's outright lying about the rape, but there's at least no question that there's more to it that she's not telling. No doubt it qualifies as a red flag. But I guess my position is that I'm ok with red flags if there are other great qualities. I myself am a red flag with other great qualities so it's only fair I take that position with a potential wife.
 

Sephorax

Pigeon
Non-Christian
I agree with this, I think my emotional brain is trying to find a way to keep her around. One thing I wonder is why she told me about it all in the first place. If she was looking to entrap me, wouldn't she hide this information? She claims to have straightened her life out since those events.

Sympathy points probably. Sometimes women put themselves out there as a victim so the guy will attempt to save her.
A lot of guys have this savior complex. It's an easy way to hook a guy.

Don't underestimate the game my friend. Your instinct probably tells you already what to do. Don't act from emotions. Look at what she shown and told you and make a decision. It is your decision of course.
 

Tippy

Kingfisher
Other Christian
"Men want to be a woman's first romance, women want to be a man's last romance" -- Oscar Wilde

The whole purity thing often manifests in romantically ideal men. It's just not romantic to have a vision of your beloved screaming in ecstacy under another man, even if it's just a flash of a thought. And innocence is a the gift a woman can only give a man once.

This

I am still struggling with this even though my gf is relatively pure. I can't seem to get thoughts of her having sex with another man out of my head. Often it torments me when we were together. I imagine this man going about his life and having the bragging rights about my partner. I think I know too much how men think about sex generally.

The only real solution is to end things and find a virgin but I don't think this is realistic or fair on her really. I just have to live with it as a punishment I suppose for my own sins.
 

Pete345

Kingfisher
Orthodox
This

I am still struggling with this even though my gf is relatively pure. I can't seem to get thoughts of her having sex with another man out of my head. Often it torments me when we were together. I imagine this man going about his life and having the bragging rights about my partner. I think I know too much how men think about sex generally.

The only real solution is to end things and find a virgin but I don't think this is realistic or fair on her really. I just have to live with it as a punishment I suppose for my own sins.
You're unlikely to find a virgin in the Anglosphere or in Western Europe. I don't know how old you are, but you will have to find a young religious girl from a small town in Eastern Europe, Asia, or South America. They have to grow up in a culture with high moral values, which also severely condemns premarital sex. Perhaps seek among the Christians in the Middle East (forget Israel). That being said...are YOU a virgin? If not, you don't really have a moral high-ground in this matter. If you're not a virgin, you can't honestly expect your wife to be, or you will be a hypocrite and she will call you out on it, as well. Has the "unchaste" girl turned her life around? Is she following a Christ-like life? Those are more important questions. Did Christ condemn the woman charged with committing adultery? Try being less judgemental, and more forgiving.
 
Last edited:

Tippy

Kingfisher
Other Christian
You're unlikely to find a virgin in the Anglosphere or in Western Europe. I don't know how old you are, but you will have to find a young religious girl from a small town in Eastern Europe, Asia, or South America. They have to grow up in a culture with high moral values, which also severely condemns premarital sex. Perhaps seek among the Christians in the Middle East (forget Israel). That being said...are YOU a virgin? If not, you don't really have a moral high-ground in this matter. If you're not a virgin, you can't honestly expect your wife to be, or you will be a hypocrite and she will call you out on it, as well. Has the "unchaste" girl turned her life around? Is she following a Christ-like life? Those are more important questions. Did Christ condemn the woman charged with committing adultery? Try being less judgemental, and more forgiving.

Usually I can forgive but in my current state I feel directly responsible. When I met my current girlfriend she was a virgin but at the time we met, I was reading a lot of PUA material and thought I needed to 'escalate fast' etc...and though she liked my personality, this turned her away from her.
Similarly with texting, she was invested in me but I was trying to 'play it cool' which also pushed her away. Eventually she dated someone else...and I came back very soon after that. I feel like I had a virgin wife material but through my terrible PUA influences pushed her away. The guilt is very strong. I am trying hard to forgive myself. There is more too. I seem to have horrible instincts.
 

BigHead1688

Chicken
Catholic
Usually I can forgive but in my current state I feel directly responsible. When I met my current girlfriend she was a virgin but at the time we met, I was reading a lot of PUA material and thought I needed to 'escalate fast' etc...and though she liked my personality, this turned her away from her.
Similarly with texting, she was invested in me but I was trying to 'play it cool' which also pushed her away. Eventually she dated someone else...and I came back very soon after that. I feel like I had a virgin wife material but through my terrible PUA influences pushed her away. The guilt is very strong. I am trying hard to forgive myself. There is more too. I seem to have horrible instincts.
This is somewhat relatable. I've indulged in too much PUA/redpill reading recently and I think it has contributed to the situation I find myself in. I am grateful for the learning experience and the reality check.
 

get2choppaaa

Crow
Orthodox
Usually I can forgive but in my current state I feel directly responsible. When I met my current girlfriend she was a virgin but at the time we met, I was reading a lot of PUA material and thought I needed to 'escalate fast' etc...and though she liked my personality, this turned her away from her.
Similarly with texting, she was invested in me but I was trying to 'play it cool' which also pushed her away. Eventually she dated someone else...and I came back very soon after that. I feel like I had a virgin wife material but through my terrible PUA influences pushed her away. The guilt is very strong. I am trying hard to forgive myself. There is more too. I seem to have horrible instincts.
Just learn from it and move on.

Next time let it happen naturally.

When you're secure in yourself you won't have to strategize how to be with the woman... It will just matriculate naturally.

My 2 cents.
 

jtamez

Chicken
Catholic
I used to worry about the same thing with past girlfriends. The one I married promised me I was her first, you can never be 100% sure but with her I was. You then get married and other issues pop up (unrelated to sex), and then the purity thing becomes less of an issue. However I think it is still a matter of searching, and I agree with another poster, check out her family, that will tell you more about the girl than the actual girl.
 
Top