Quiet Quitting / Decline in Worker Productivity

DanielH

Hummingbird
Moderator
Orthodox
I dunno. Everyone where I work in my department is paid well and works very very hard.


It's also oil and gas and publicly traded... So if you suck they will fire you quickly....
I can only speak for my IT job but I only ever work a few hours a day most of the time because there’s only that much actual work to do 95% of the time.
I'm in an interesting position where I work two jobs, one as an engineer who works primarily from home, the other as a general contractor doing basements, bathrooms and kitchens primarily. Drywall, tiling, flooring, painting, basic electrical, et cetera.

At the white collar job, a lot of the job itself is fluff. There is not 40 hours of work to do in a week. I tried ramping up how much I did after my son was born, and increased how much I looked for work, asking around if anyone needed anything, etc. The result was I have a lot more permanent busy work now as I inherited some databases from someone who quiet quitted. I got a meager raise for my substantially increased workload. On top of this, I feel guilty for being paid when I'm not working, but I know I am doing more than most people in my position. Nothing at this job feels rewarding because it's mostly just numbers on a screen. It's very strange.

At the blue collar job, there is no loafing about, I work every hour I'm paid, there are no breaks, and I'm happier doing it, but it doesn't pay nearly as much unless I started my own business.

This kind of two tiered system, one in the real world, and one in the aether, doesn't seem sustainable to me, and no, I dont think automation will be a real threat. Hardware isn't advancing much anymore, and software is getting worse too, since the programmers are worse. If anything I could see the spreadsheet aspect of my white collar job being automated.
 

Hermetic Seal

Pelican
Orthodox
Gold Member
Good observations DanielH. In my case, I don't want to be a manager, or an entrepreneur, which are a terrible fit for my personality type; ideally I'd just be building or making stuff. In centuries past I'd probably have been some sort of skilled artisan, if not a writer or some sort of artist - skills which in our time are unfortunately not likely to lead to a stable income.
 

TheosisSeeker

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
People are waking up to the scams of nonstop productivity, materialism, and corporate lies.

In most corporate jobs raises aren't much and promotions are hard to come by even if you go above and beyond. That's why it's important to be a strong negotiator and begin with a high starting salary.

Doing lots of extra work will just get you more extra work, while management mainly takes the credit. As they say the strong horse carries the load.

I have also noticed a shift as my company has high turnover and managers are afraid of losing people so basically we can do what we want.

I don't think it's always necessarily laziness, just a lack of meaning. I get my meaning outside of work, so I don't care about being devoted to it.
 

Blade Runner

Hummingbird
Orthodox
People are waking up to the scams of nonstop productivity, materialism, and corporate lies.

In most corporate jobs raises aren't much and promotions are hard to come by even if you go above and beyond. That's why it's important to be a strong negotiator and begin with a high starting salary.

Doing lots of extra work will just get you more extra work, while management mainly takes the credit. As they say the strong horse carries the load.

I have also noticed a shift as my company has high turnover and managers are afraid of losing people so basically we can do what we want.

I don't think it's always necessarily laziness, just a lack of meaning. I get my meaning outside of work, so I don't care about being devoted to it.
Great points, especially points 3 and 5.

In times past, when most people had the classic scenario of being rewarded with a family and kids (who they came home to and took care of the home), the man was happy to go out and work hard every day. Ever since those days there has been less and less reason to go above and beyond, especially as female beauty largely dissipated from the society, and was turned into competition. And they wonder why people increasingly "played the game" along with them. I personally think the employers and CEOs laughed at some point in the late 1980s, wondering how long this would take or the common man would "figure it out." It turns out that the scam finally got outed when they bailed out the corporate interests after all of their misdeeds in the GFC, the final stroke of clown world in a "heads we win, tails you lose" moment.
 

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
People are waking up to the scams of nonstop productivity, materialism, and corporate lies.

In most corporate jobs raises aren't much and promotions are hard to come by even if you go above and beyond. That's why it's important to be a strong negotiator and begin with a high starting salary.

Doing lots of extra work will just get you more extra work, while management mainly takes the credit. As they say the strong horse carries the load.

I have also noticed a shift as my company has high turnover and managers are afraid of losing people so basically we can do what we want.

I don't think it's always necessarily laziness, just a lack of meaning. I get my meaning outside of work, so I don't care about being devoted to it.
General work comment as a manager for a successful career with the ability to move up, in a publicly traded company. Find industries where the below applies and you'll crush it.

You want to get into a position where you have support above you and below you. You have to be able to train your replacement before you'll ever be promoted.

You also want to be able to create your own deliverables and control the narrative where ever possible.

Be able to provide more than vague summaries of details and give granular data when able, but learn to read the room and provide executive summaries whenever possible.

Understand that your boss and your boss's boss is only concerned with financials and reporting requirements pursuant to the rules of your organization.

You want to be given enough specificity that you're invaluable beyond checking the box of employment, but not so segmented that you don't understand how your role ties into the entire enterprise.

Learn about a balance sheet, income statement, and cash flow. Learn how to communicate about them.

Eventually you'll be in a management position. Create a summary of current procedures and actions and an action plan for the way forward.

Make the above simple and agreeable to the audience, reinforce what they already know, but don't have data to demonstrate. Produce the data, come up with models.

When you make a mode show 3 parts: status quo, an alternative (less beneficial) and your desired outcome (weight the benefits and steel man the criticisms before they ever come up)

Have 2 or 3 such projects... You'll get noticed quickly and promoted quickly.
 

Carolus

Robin
Protestant
It basically comes down to this: we have had increasing worker productivity for decades and inflation that crushed purchasing power that any change in wages or compensation weren't keeping up with. The culture on every level, if you have any sense, tries to take advantage of you and most (rightly) conclude that you are a sucker if you feel bad about making ... rational decisions. Men, who are far more productive than women, increasingly have made these rational decisions as the society doesn't care about them or rewarding them in any way.

I've answered this question before, and the basic response is that as employers or the system tries to extract more and more from you, you change your behavior to extract more value from your job. The only option over time was to do less and less since there was increasingly less incentive to do more and more. If they aren't going to pay you more or give you more respect or security, then it only stands to reason that you would lower stress at all costs for the same pay, as that is your last option left.

/thread

Boomers have deliberately decoupled advancement from hard work and merit at nearly all jobs. Now everyone pretends to be surprised no one wants to work hard.

This is the whole "why aren't men getting married???" and "where have all the GOOD men gone???" shtick all over again but it's the workforce this time and a different, but overlapping, group of people pretend they can't understand the obvious.
 

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
/thread

Boomers have deliberately decoupled advancement from hard work and merit at nearly all jobs. Now everyone pretends to be surprised no one wants to work hard.

This is the whole "why aren't men getting married???" and "where have all the GOOD men gone???" shtick all over again but it's the workforce this time and a different, but overlapping, group of people pretend they can't understand the obvious.
Yeah.. with respect.... I've not found that sentiment to be the case...


I'm just gonna say in general I've found the loafers weed themselves out from successful careers. The Peter Principle applies... But they cap themselves out at a certain point.

You're right, there's a lot of lazyness in organizations (especially women ran things like accounting with GAAP) but in general... Those people should not be your competition if you're trying to thrive in your professional career.

You're never gonna make 200k a year working from home unless you're a genius day trader using other people's money....

For us that work in an office... You have to be a workaholic. You can do that and have a family and a wife and kids... You just have to prioritize your time correctly.
 

Carolus

Robin
Protestant
Yeah.. with respect.... I've not found that sentiment to be the case...


I'm just gonna say in general I've found the loafers weed themselves out from successful careers. The Peter Principle applies... But they cap themselves out at a certain point.

You're right, there's a lot of lazyness in organizations (especially women ran things like accounting with GAAP) but in general... Those people should not be your competition if you're trying to thrive in your professional career.

You're never gonna make 200k a year working from home unless you're a genius day trader using other people's money....

With respect, nearly everyone who disagrees with this assessment is someone who is part of the problem.

For us that work in an office... You have to be a workaholic.

Thanks for the laugh.

Look, here's the thing, it is entirely possible that in your specific office this is true. There are many exceptions. But, if it were true, then you would be aware of how rare this is.
 

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
With respect, nearly everyone who disagrees with this assessment is someone who is part of the problem.



Thanks for the laugh.

Look, here's the thing, it is entirely possible that in your specific office this is true. There are many exceptions. But, if it were true, then you would be aware of how rare this is.
Ok. But note where I mentioned it's Oil and Gas which is also called the Golden Handcuff in colloquial terms.

How's that working out for you? Are you where you want to be? Are you actively trending that way? Or just coasting?


You can say thanks for the laugh all you want. I'm sure someone is out cycling you right now.

I understand one size does not fit all... But how many rich men mentors do you know? What do they say?
1) be bold. Don't be dumb but be bold
2) youll never exceed your highest expectations of your self, so the higher you set your goals for yourself, the likely you are to get there.
3)you must put in the work.

I actually question how many super successful people you know if you don't see this obvious fact.

Eta:

If you work in an organization that is promoting a bad culture.... It's your responsibility to leave. You have no one to blame but yourself if you keep yourself in a position where you're not advancing your own career and economic interests.

Edited to add 1x more:

What's your suggestion then for people who are navigating this work environment you're describing? What's worked for you, how have you mitigated the other people's poor performance, and how have you used that to you your advantage to get yourself promoted?
 
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paternos

Kingfisher
Catholic
There is the dark side of working. Continuous self promotion to survive. You have to be "visible" in the organisation. A never ending cycle of levels and promotions to run after. Quarterly judgement by groups of managers if you are performing. Forced online courses to learn about "leadership" and the "growth-mindset". Everyone acts as if their colleagues are best friends. Continuous measurement of KPIs and comparing you against your colleagues. Calling yourself progressive. You need to keep growing. Change positions. Change is good.

And there is the light side of working. Being a woodworker, making a table in your tempo. It might take half a day, a day or 2 days. Putting heart into it. Feeling accomplishment when you finished the project. A real tangible result. Making a table for somebody else, who is happy with the product.

Many people work on the dark side, and that's soul crushing, studying for 20 years to eat snacks all day in the LinkedIn office is just depressing. It's soul-crushing that "memorizing books" is not so useful. You realize it was all a fraud all along. And while you are snacking organic quinoa-pretzels and touching the recycled wood you wish to throw yourself of the building. You refrain form that, you tell yourself, send that selfpromoting email, but you can't, you quiet quit.
 

TheosisSeeker

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
There is the dark side of working. Continuous self promotion to survive. You have to be "visible" in the organisation. A never ending cycle of levels and promotions to run after. Quarterly judgement by groups of managers if you are performing. Forced online courses to learn about "leadership" and the "growth-mindset". Everyone acts as if their colleagues are best friends. Continuous measurement of KPIs and comparing you against your colleagues. Calling yourself progressive. You need to keep growing. Change positions. Change is good.

And there is the light side of working. Being a woodworker, making a table in your tempo. It might take half a day, a day or 2 days. Putting heart into it. Feeling accomplishment when you finished the project. A real tangible result. Making a table for somebody else, who is happy with the product.

Many people work on the dark side, and that's soul crushing, studying for 20 years to eat snacks all day in the LinkedIn office is just depressing. It's soul-crushing that "memorizing books" is not so useful. You realize it was all a fraud all along. And while you are snacking organic quinoa-pretzels and touching the recycled wood you wish to throw yourself of the building. You refrain form that, you tell yourself, send that selfpromoting email, but you can't, you quiet quit.

Exactly right. In extreme examples this is what happens when one becomes too attached to the corporate game.


2.9 million in comp, yet he lept to his death. What was he missing? God.

I feel that 99 percent corporate drones have no spiritual life outside of their 5 minutes of meditation and yoga, which corrupt them even more. They never learn any of the lessons we study.

What are we taught?

Do not get attached to this world. Avoid pleasure. Salvation lies within.

Many corporations are the complete antithesis of these values.
 

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Excellent, so you are aware that where you work is an exception and that your experience in office work is not representative of the wider world? Which means we are in agreement? You say you disagree, then agree when backed into a corner.


It's working out great. I'm very well off financially, have tons of freedom, and never had to participate in blowing up peasants in 3rd world countries.


There is always a bigger fish. This is a meaningless statement designed to sound intelligent. Unless you're referring to anabolic steroid cycling?


My father, grandfather, and both of my uncles are multi-millionaires. My most successful uncle is also the least hard working of the bunch -- by far. During the last decade of his career he worked only a couple days per week. Much of this work was done on the golf course.


See above for a short list.


Good thing I don't work in such a place.

I agreed with a post that stated a general observation regarding the USA work culture. I can make an observation about that without being negatively effected by it personally.

Corporate culture in the USA, generally speaking, does not reward hard work or merit anymore and has not for some time. This has trickled down to small businesses, as well. Feel free to claim otherwise and brag about how hard you work if you want.
Against my better judgement I'm going to respond to you.

I'm gonna cut through your ever-present snark to get to the meat and potatoes of my point. Feel free to do with it as you will, this isnt exactly our first exchange and your general passive aggressive delivery is tiresome. I'll simply say that I find you to be very very unserious, a whiner, and I challenge your credibility on all you say.


But that notwithstanding, as per the converstation and my general assessment:

I dont know that where I work is the exception or not. You seem to present it as the case, but we are all shaped by our experiences. I tend to not suffer myself in organizations that are not favorable to my circumstances. I leave them. So since you only get in life what you bargain for, I dont know why you would continue to sit in a work culture that extorts you beyond your enjoyment, where you hate everyone you work with. But Hey... that a you thing. There are differences in every shop/organization ect...

I deal with a lot of high performers, I am one myself. There isnt a lot of messing about that goes on. Maybe in the finaincial sector people get away with that... I dont know. I cant speak to that. But so far, in the military and in business Ive found that putting in the work and the time correlates to success and pay.

Is your comment about blowing up 3rd world peasants meant to be an attack on me or my military service or just an off hand internet comment not directed at me. I did have to blow up a few 3rd world peasants, its not a laughing matter and its quite sad that that's part of life, but your cavalier comment, irrespective of the audience member your commenting can only be taken as a direct comment to me... Fine. I'm going to cool my emotions on this, and remember it's the internet and context is a problem. These are the sorts of things people say that result in very bad outcomes in real life.... but then again, I tend to think you're a pretender as it is.


In my first civilian job where I eventually became a manager I worked more than 60 hours a week. That was a small business...
In my current role I work about 60 hours a week, am taking my MBA, have 5 kids.

People can disagree. I'm only here to provide tools and a sounding board.

Rant over.

Now let me make a comment directed at you specifically Carolus, because while I want to give you the benefit of the doubt... I think you should note:

I cant take anything you say with much credibility because it is effervescent that you're a miserable person based off your constant desire to attack others in your entire catalogue of posts. Youre probaly a smart guy (clearly you think you're much smarter than me), but the carriage is that of someone who'se very deeply insecure. I hope your comments about being well off are true, and I wish you nothing but success... but I am willing to bet if you let go of this negative mindset you exhibit constantly, you'd unlock much more successful avenues in your work and personal life.



If everything I say is wrong then its quite irrelevant. But for most people reading this, you offer no help and I offer some help. So me, as a causual observer would say "Why would I listen to the guy who complains about everything?" You're the self licking icecream cone of complaints.


ETA:

By your own admission you come from money. I sure didnt.

I think my way works much better than yours. It actually works.
 

fortyfive

Kingfisher
Other Christian
People don't want to work because there is no incentive to work anymore except to pay bills. No meaningful future worth of sacrifice. 2018 was the end of the party and people know it.

We are in the Weimar period now and that's the people's time for worries not to work. Only when a false savior comes, trust in the future and the system will be restored again.
 

Carolus

Robin
Protestant
By your own admission you come from money. I sure didnt.
If I don't know tons of rich people, I don't know what I'm talking about. If I do know tons of rich people, I "come from money" which I've "admitted" and is now somehow a mark against me.
***

Look, I saw a well thought-out post I agree with and voiced my support. I didn't come into a thread about "quiet quitting" looking for life advice or lectures about how I don't "cycle" hard enough.

I am too hostile to unsolicited life advice and nonsense, dishonest arguments like the one outlined above and for that I apologize. I should not have replied to the first post, let alone the second one.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I dont know that where I work is the exception or not. You seem to present it as the case, but we are all shaped by our experiences. I tend to not suffer myself in organizations that are not favorable to my circumstances. I leave them. So since you only get in life what you bargain for, I dont know why you would continue to sit in a work culture that extorts you beyond your enjoyment, where you hate everyone you work with. But Hey... that a you thing. There are differences in every shop/organization ect...
I do want to address this point and this might be where the two of you are talking past each other and maybe not.

Being born into money can help, but I have seen many cases where it is severely disabling for the person. They don't learn struggle, and they crash at the first sign of it. There are a lot of guys who consider themselves "average" because they didn't come from money, who won the genetic lottery. I know a few personally. And they are very much under the belief that if they could do it, anyone could do it, because they didn't come from money. But they came from great athletic genetics or great intelligence genetics or some combination of different factors that are far more beneficial that just coming from money. They are easily in the top 10% of men, if not top 5% of men, but are mistakenly under the belief they are just average.

Anyway, I am exceptionally average, except at a few things. So I had nonstop struggle growing up. Anything I wanted to do, I could never achieve, no matter how hard I worked. And work hard I did, whether it was running sprints out in the brutal summer heat or working myself sick saving money (which I have done many times and now regret). It never worked for me. I'm not complaining, because of this resilience I have grown very strong mentally and even stronger physically. But I worked my rear off all summer, or at a job, to watch the natural alpha just get the rewards without working because they were born with better genetics.

So just the word "risk" means two different things between men. For you, you "risk" leaving a job for another job, because in your life "risk" means taking a small chance for a big reward. But for guys like me, "risk" means working your butt off, getting sick, doing everything as expected and then falling on your face and realizing all you did was lose time and energy and your self-esteem. I am still overcoming a lot of this mentally.

So when guys like me, and I know many of them, find a decent job we just stick with it. Yea, it is miserable, yea it has been soul draining. So much so that I have worked weekend jobs on top of my full time job for nearly 25 years, all so I could have enough to retire early and escape. Why? Because I already know from my experience that if I took that "risk" I will get burned and turn from a bad situation into a worse one. Maybe I would get lucky and it might pan out, but it is so unlikely that the pay would have to be 10-fold to make the risk worthwhile. Now we are seeing diversity mandates, endless legal immigration pushed by both parties, and the soon collapse of the economy, I know very well I made the right choice to stay put and stay miserable. Because that is the best it gets for men like me in this day and age and the next generation of men have a lot worse waiting for them.

Am I complaining? Absolutely not, every night when I pray, I thank My Lord for bringing me such struggle. Because this struggle has prepared me for the hell and disappointment that awaits us. And I think a lot of guys who say "it is easy, just work hard and play by these rules" are in for a big surprise when the bottom does drop out. Personally, I am looking forward to it, because I have no other choice.

I'm not dissing you or your work ethic, I very much appreciate it. But for most guys, in this day and age things don't work for them. My side job is very sociable, so I see the full range of things, and I see the top 10% guys and ask "why can't I have that", then I take a reality check and remember "oh yea, because I am me and I already didn't make the cut".
 

Aboulia

Kingfisher
Orthodox
If I don't know tons of rich people, I don't know what I'm talking about. If I do know tons of rich people, I "come from money" which I've "admitted" and is now somehow a mark against me.

The part where you mentioned that your father and uncles were multi-millionaires gives the impression that you come from money, and was left up unedited at the time when @get2choppaaa posted. To attempt to cover your tracks and claim that you didn't come from money, you changed your long post to

*Deleted due to me being a dick
Perhaps you would have more credibility if you acted more openly.
 

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
If I don't know tons of rich people, I don't know what I'm talking about. If I do know tons of rich people, I "come from money" which I've "admitted" and is now somehow a mark against me.
***

Look, I saw a well thought-out post I agree with and voiced my support. I didn't come into a thread about "quiet quitting" looking for life advice or lectures about how I don't "cycle" hard enough.

I am too hostile to unsolicited life advice and nonsense, dishonest arguments like the one outlined above and for that I apologize. I should not have replied to the first post, let alone the second one.
My point stands and you offer no legitimate response to your constant criticism. Of course you're allowed to have an opinion. But when you insult mine, insult military service, and then reveal you're background is one of privelege.... you are a cad. It must surely be nice to have all these rich family members, poor white trash like me just have to use the military or work hard unlike you sophistified edumacated folks. Im not attacking you for coming from money, or being rich. I am pointing out that perception from someone who's well off and made it vs someone who's on their way to making it are 2 different things. But don't attack me, my military service, my attitude, or my beliefs with the smug heir of superiority you have then feign victim when I call you out.

Further, after quoting me: belittle my point, bring up unrelated points about military service, in a petulant way to provoke me I can only assume.... bring up steroids repeatedly, not sure how that has to with anything in business... If you are needing testosterone, I'd go to a doctor. Whats youre deal with steroids? Why repeatedly bring this up? Its not been mentioned in this thread, so maybe you're going around other posts and finding something to link it to? I dont know. If you're unfamiliar with termanology commonly used by veterans "outcycling" other people... well I'm sorry you're not conversant in my terminology...


I should have made a more directed question: How many self-made independently wealthy people do you know?

You scoffed and laughed about the workaholic stance, which I said is part of what most* successful people do when they want success in business.

Other people suck and are lazy? Good. That just raises my stock more as I out cycle them.

Other people dont meet timelines? Good that just helps me.

The point I am making is that there are slackers in ALL business. The people who rise to the top almost always have the same formula. Hard work, sacrifice, and perseverance.

My point is to try and remind people that focusing on all the negativity around you will not help you further yourself interests.

We can disagree or agree. Shame on me for thinking I could retort in a way that added value to the conversation WITH YOU.
 

Carolus

Robin
Protestant
You scoffed and laughed about the workaholic stance, which I said is part of what most* successful people do when they want success in business.
I did not do this. I commented about my view on the dysfunctional American workplace. I did not scoff or laugh at hardworking people or the value of hard work. The fact that hard work is not properly rewarded is, in fact, my complaint.

The part where you mentioned that your father and uncles were multi-millionaires gives the impression that you come from money, and was left up unedited at the time when @get2choppaaa posted. To attempt to cover your tracks and claim that you didn't come from money, you changed your long post to
What are you talking about? I never denied I came from money or "tried to cover my tracks." I deleted that post because I realized I was being a dick.
 
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