Quiet Quitting / Decline in Worker Productivity

[It_is_my_time]

The notion that one couldn't afford to raise a child after working 7 day weeks for two decades in ANY JOB, and investing prudently, is frankly quite ridiculous. Even the lowest paid worker could afford the expense if he was somewhat frugal.

It seems that holding onto such a notion stems from a fear of failure, or success. Your most recent comments allude to a progessive moving of the goalposts of being "financially ready" for children over time.

I have gathered that world events have a profound effect on your psyche. Whilst we cannot control external conditions (Great Depression, COVID, etc.), we can control how we mitigate the effects and continue to survive despite such circumstances.

I can only infer that there is something deeper fundamentally that is preventing you from achieving the objective of starting a family.

It is not an uncommon issue to have in these current times, and there are countless fellow men who share a similar predicament. Perhaps it would be of some benefit to explore ways to properly address the issue in a healthy manner.


All the best and Godspeed.

I said nothing about not being able to afford a wife and child. I could do so, like most any many over 35, if I am willing to work until I am 70, or more likely 75 for most people in my generation. I don't want to do that. I never wanted to work for someone else, and I still don't want to, and I will not do it until I am in my 70's.

Of course my comments are based on the current status quo, which is unlikely to hold up in any manner, but that is another subject.

 

[get2choppaaa]

I did answer, let me try another way...

If you told me 10 years ago that I would have a net worth of what I have now, owning the investments that I own right now, I would guess that either I was already retired, or had gone part time.

Things have gotten that much worse. I met my goals, but the goal posts have been changed by how bad things have gotten over that period of time.

- I had no idea the stock market would just become a giant ponzi scheme that is simply just a hedge against USD weakness.
- I had no idea the powers that be, would let tax payers lose their homes and businesses, and had $5 trillion to Blackrock Financial. I thought there was some kind of limit as to how bad things would get.
- I had no idea the powers that be would watch the economy go into the drain and then raise interest rates to levels that are simply unsustainable.
- I had no idea the powers that be would be more than happy to lose a war, in incredible fashion, and not even try to hide how badly economic sanctions have backfired on us.

I figured there had to be some serious professionals, somewhere in our federal govt., to pull aside our "leaders" and tell them this was a bridge too far. But I was mistaken.

My guess now is that once interest rates do come down, and I can refinance some investments loans + the savings over those few years, I will be where I want to be.

But I don't know if this is true or not, because I am sure the "leaders" will find ways to not even sustain our level of living we have right now.

What is the dollar amount you think you need to reach that success?

I said nothing about not being able to afford a wife and child. I could do so, like most any many over 35, if I am willing to work until I am 70, or more likely 75 for most people in my generation. I don't want to do that. I never wanted to work for someone else, and I still don't want to, and I will not do it until I am in my 70's.

Of course my comments are based on the current status quo, which is unlikely to hold up in any manner, but that is another subject.

If you take 10 percent, invest it smartly, and move up the latter and are good at your job, 20 years in the workforce should have you able to live comfortably, In a nice area ect.

If you're a glutton for punishment like me and want to be the CEO of your company then it's not about money... It's about genuinely wanting to be in charge.

The money is the byproduct of successful risk calculation and hard work.

 

[Pete345]

The notion that one couldn't afford to raise a child after working 7 day weeks for two decades in ANY JOB, and investing prudently, is frankly quite ridiculous. Even the lowest paid worker could afford the expense if he was somewhat frugal.

It seems that holding onto such a notion stems from a fear of failure, or success. Your most recent comments allude to a progessive moving of the goalposts of being "financially ready" for children over time.

I have gathered that world events have a profound effect on your psyche. Whilst we cannot control external conditions (Great Depression, COVID, etc.), we can control how we mitigate the effects and continue to survive despite such circumstances.

I can only infer that there is something deeper fundamentally that is preventing you from achieving the objective of starting a family.

It is not an uncommon issue to have in these current times, and there are countless fellow men who share a similar predicament. Perhaps it would be of some benefit to explore ways to properly address the issue in a healthy manner.


All the best and Godspeed.

My priest manages to raise 7 children on a 25K/year salary.

 

[grenade001]

I said nothing about not being able to afford a wife and child. I could do so, like most any many over 35, if I am willing to work until I am 70, or more likely 75 for most people in my generation. I don't want to do that. I never wanted to work for someone else, and I still don't want to, and I will not do it until I am in my 70's.

Of course my comments are based on the current status quo, which is unlikely to hold up in any manner, but that is another subject.

What rough dollar figure in passive investments (2023 dollars) would be "comfortable" for you? $2 million dollars?

With a PPOR owned full and clear, $2 million in passive assets would provide an income of $100k per year, based on a 5% return, or $80k per annum at a 4% withdrawal rate.

If you do desire self-employment, what steps have you taken to achieve that objective?

I recently caught up with my uncle who will be 83 this year, who has started to develop signs of early dementia. I saw the depression in his eyes when he told me that he should have kept up the part time errand runs he was doing for my cousin after he retired, and should never quit work entirely.

My uncle is fortunate to still be married to his wife of over 50 years, and all but one of his five children still living nearby and regularly visiting. There are also our older relatives who come around to visit him, in addition to traveling interstate myself to make visits. If he didn't have a support network around him built up over decades, his condition would have worsen significantly.

 

[It_is_my_time]

What is the dollar amount you think you need to reach that success?



If you take 10 percent, invest it smartly, and move up the latter and are good at your job, 20 years in the workforce should have you able to live comfortably, In a nice area ect.

If you're a glutton for punishment like me and want to be the CEO of your company then it's not about money... It's about genuinely wanting to be in charge.

The money is the byproduct of successful risk calculation and hard work.

I honestly don't know, because I never thought things would get as bad as they have gotten. In 2020, when Blackrock was handed $5 trillion and we were told to suck eggs, while taxpayers lost their homes and their businesses, during an election year, I realized the amount would need to be much larger than I anticipated.

Very few move up the ladder, at least not in 20 years time. I hear comments on here, and I know few people who "move up the ladder" or "work 40 hours a week". For me to move up the ladder, and this is true of most everyone I know, I would have to either jump companies (huge risk in our increasingly bad economy) or jump to another department (not a desire of mine at all) and then go into management (another thing I don't want to do) and put the middle manager target on my back for the next round of layoffs.

For example, in my group, I am the 2nd youngest (even though I am in my mid 40's) and the least skilled. And they all work the hours I work, and they all could step out the door and make 10 to 20% more the first day, and none of them dare do it. It is very bad out there, and we know how good we have it only working 50/60 hours a week and having no chance for advancement.

Lets say you start off making $50,000 a year, and double it to $100,000 a year over 20 years, that will leave you with around $1 million to $1.5 million, if you invest 10% a year. At 42, you are not going to retire anywhere and afford kids on $1.5 million, unless you want to live off the grid and get lucky to have no major medical issues. And that isn't a desire of mine either. I like modern convenience, and so do a large majority of women.

 

[It_is_my_time]

My priest manages to raise 7 children on a 25K/year salary.

How is this possible. I live in an area that is below the halfway point COL in the USA, and if I had a child, my healthcare costs + my bills (mortgage, electricity, gas, etc.) and then groceries would be more than $25,000 a year. It would be around $32,000 to $40,000 a year.

 

[Pete345]

How is this possible. I live in an area that is below the halfway point COL in the USA, and if I had a child, my healthcare costs + my bills (mortgage, electricity, gas, etc.) and then groceries would be more than $25,000 a year. It would be around $32,000 to $40,000 a year.

I live in Europe, where health care and monthly child support is heavily subsidised by the government, out of taxes. But he has an extremely resourceful wife who makes a lot of things by hand, and the parish helps with food, clothing, etc. donations, etc.

 

[It_is_my_time]

I live in Europe, where health care and monthly child support is heavily subsidised by the government, out of taxes. But he has an extremely resourceful wife who makes a lot of things by hand, and the parish helps with food, clothing, etc. donations, etc.

Ah, that makes sense. Yea, in the USA, no matter which party is in power, you will pay about the same in taxes as Europeans do, around 50% of your income. Whether income taxes directly, property taxes (or sky high rent to pay your landlords property taxes), sales taxes (where I live 9% even on groceries), etc.

And in return we have broken roads, no healthcare, and violence from police who are scared to do their jobs. At my company, if I remain single, I only pay about $50 a month for healthcare. If I get married and have a kid, my healthcare payment is around $1,400 a month. And that is with a sky high deductible ($5,000) and only 80% coverage.

This is why so many are quiet quitting. There are absolutely no rewards for giving up your life to work a job and stress. US salaries would have to double to make it worthwhile, and since the Wall Street Big 3 own everything and no politician calls them out, nothing will change. And more and more young men realize it. I certainly no longer care and do the bare minimum; it gives me some satisfaction that I am getting something back.

 

[homersheineken]

The term "blackpilling" is thrown around WAY too much and the term isn't understood. "Blackpillling" is saying "there is no hope or chance". I never said anything close to that.

For someone saying they aren't black pilling, you sure spend a lot of time saying how bad and hopeless it is:

How bad things have to get, and how long this will take, is something I cannot predict.

because I never thought things would get as bad as they have gotten.

and none of them dare do it. It is very bad out there,

you are not going to retire anywhere and afford kids on $1.5 million

I certainly no longer care

And that's just in the last couple of pages of this 1 thread.

Look I get it, I don't mean to keep getting at you, you're a good poster with mostly solid arguments. But you're frustrated and tired. Many people are because of how the elites have radically changed the world so much in the last couple of years.

But I also refute your arguments for the good of the forum and the other men in it. It's not good for the forum to continue with consistent negativity. There's a good reason black-pilling is banned here. It's not good for the soul and shouldn't be scaring/influencing the younger men from having children and families.

Just the opposite, we need to have more children and larger families. That's how you get closer to God and fight against the powers that be.
Nobody wants to work for the man. But you suck it up and do it for your children. Like I said, I balance work (yes I'm pretty strict about only working a job that is 40hrs), children, hobbies, weight lifting, the woman, learning new techs and have am no where near a millionaire you claim you need. I work in IT and hardly anyone works more than 40, unless they are super geeks that really enjoy playing with the tech. There are plenty of those jobs in IT (I edit my resume and I get floods of recruiters contacting me).

So I don't understand your negativity on only finding jobs working 70+hrs/week. I don't understand how you can only be a millionaire to afford kids when 99.9% of the people in the world have kids without it. I don't understand how you can continue to lament for so long with out change.

Other posters agree on how negative the life posts are, and how damaging it to you and the forum.

Seriously, take a good long look at your life and your posts. Take a good break from the 20 year grind.

I pray you do and pray that God will help you open your eyes about your needs for children and life for the good of you and the forum.

 

[It_is_my_time]

For someone saying they aren't black pilling, you sure spend a lot of time saying how bad and hopeless it is:






And that's just in the last couple of pages of this 1 thread.

Look I get it, I don't mean to keep getting at you, you're a good poster with mostly solid arguments. But you're frustrated and tired. Many people are because of how the elites have radically changed the world so much in the last couple of years.

But I also refute your arguments for the good of the forum and the other men in it. It's not good for the forum to continue with consistent negativity. There's a good reason black-pilling is banned here. It's not good for the soul and shouldn't be scaring/influencing the younger men from having children and families.

Just the opposite, we need to have more children and larger families. That's how you get closer to God and fight against the powers that be.
Nobody wants to work for the man. But you suck it up and do it for your children. Like I said, I balance work (yes I'm pretty strict about only working a job that is 40hrs), children, hobbies, weight lifting, the woman, learning new techs and have am no where near a millionaire you claim you need. I work in IT and hardly anyone works more than 40, unless they are super geeks that really enjoy playing with the tech. There are plenty of those jobs in IT (I edit my resume and I get floods of recruiters contacting me).

So I don't understand your negativity on only finding jobs working 70+hrs/week. I don't understand how you can only be a millionaire to afford kids when 99.9% of the people in the world have kids without it. I don't understand how you can continue to lament for so long with out change.

Other posters agree on how negative the life posts are, and how damaging it to you and the forum.

Seriously, take a good long look at your life and your posts. Take a good break from the 20 year grind.

I pray you do and pray that God will help you open your eyes about your needs for children and life for the good of you and the forum.

I would happily take a break, but I can't even afford that. If I take one day off, all hell breaks loose at work. And I know a lot of professionals and they are the same way or worse. My days off I often log in and work between 3 and 7 hours, sometimes while riding in the car and someone else is driving.

I still haven't heard a peep out of who is working only 40 hours a week or climbing the corporate ladder. Today that is all reserved for the dieversity hires, while the rest of us have to do the work and get no reward for it.

The rest takes away from this thread and if you want to PM, feel free. Anyone is free to PM me.

This thread is about people getting so frustrated with the system that they are giving up and stealing time back from their employers. And I am right in that vein of mindset.

 

[get2choppaaa]

I honestly don't know, because I never thought things would get as bad as they have gotten. In 2020, when Blackrock was handed $5 trillion and we were told to suck eggs, while taxpayers lost their homes and their businesses, during an election year, I realized the amount would need to be much larger than I anticipated.

Very few move up the ladder, at least not in 20 years time. I hear comments on here, and I know few people who "move up the ladder" or "work 40 hours a week". For me to move up the ladder, and this is true of most everyone I know, I would have to either jump companies (huge risk in our increasingly bad economy) or jump to another department (not a desire of mine at all) and then go into management (another thing I don't want to do) and put the middle manager target on my back for the next round of layoffs.

For example, in my group, I am the 2nd youngest (even though I am in my mid 40's) and the least skilled. And they all work the hours I work, and they all could step out the door and make 10 to 20% more the first day, and none of them dare do it. It is very bad out there, and we know how good we have it only working 50/60 hours a week and having no chance for advancement.

Lets say you start off making $50,000 a year, and double it to $100,000 a year over 20 years, that will leave you with around $1 million to $1.5 million, if you invest 10% a year. At 42, you are not going to retire anywhere and afford kids on $1.5 million, unless you want to live off the grid and get lucky to have no major medical issues. And that isn't a desire of mine either. I like modern convenience, and so do a large majority of women.

I think you're missing my point about taking risk. You only advance when you bring something new to the table and have the ability to demonstrate unique value.

If it's taking you 20 years to reach 100k, you're either too risk adverse or you're not maximizing your opportunity.

You cannot control the economy. You can't control Black rock ECT ...

Worrying about this is a cop out to justify not making challenging decisions and being scared of new responsibilities.

You said so yourself, you're preferring comfort over money by not moving departments or companies.

You should pivot.

Once you've been somewhere for a long time and don't have any more growth potential, you're next on the chopping block when a layoff comes.

I understand the gripe.... I'm just not very sympathetic because there are ways to get ahead of your peers. You have to work hard AND take intelligent risks.

 

[It_is_my_time]

I think you're missing my point about taking risk. You only advance when you bring something new to the table and have the ability to demonstrate unique value.

If it's taking you 20 years to reach 100k, you're either too risk adverse or you're not maximizing your opportunity.

You cannot control the economy. You can't control Black rock ECT ...

Worrying about this is a cop out to justify not making challenging decisions and being scared of new responsibilities.

You said so yourself, you're preferring comfort over money by not moving departments or companies.

You should pivot.

Once you've been somewhere for a long time and don't have any more growth potential, you're next on the chopping block when a layoff comes.

I understand the gripe.... I'm just not very sympathetic because there are ways to get ahead of your peers. You have to work hard AND take intelligent risks.

I am risk adverse. It is my personality type. I shouldn't have to live through extremely high stress and uncomfortable situations, day after day, just to make enough to have a family. That is a broken system, and if it doesn't catch up with you, it certainly will your children.

Risk doesn't mean "winning". Risk means leaving something that works, for the potential of something better and the possibility you crash and burn. Had our country not fallen off a cliff, staying where I did, would have been more than enough. Jumping to another job or company was not needed and could have caused me to crash and burn. As bad as things sound, at least as a middle aged White man I have a job. Many middle aged White men are told "do not apply".

As far as the chopping block, my experience has been the people who stayed around, were quiet, did what they were asked to do, and were under paid and under appreciated always survived the layoff chopping block. I have survived three rounds, while the hot shots that were "going to shake things up" were tossed.

 

[DanielH]

This conversation can go to DMs if you all want to continue it. It seems for us to understand your situation properly you would have to give a lot of personal information publicly which is not allowed and not advised.

 

[It_is_my_time]

This conversation can go to DMs if you all want to continue it. It seems for us to understand your situation properly you would have to give a lot of personal information publicly which is not allowed and not advised.

Agreed. If anyone is serious about learning what I have to share, feel free to PM me, any subject.

 

[IM3000]

When I started working at my current company, I made 45k/year. Within roughly 5 years I was able to double it and had my employer pay for an advanced degree. I did all this while working 40h/week and treating a day off as a day off.
There is no need to slave away. If you bring something valuable to table, your company will treat you accordingly because they cannot replace you easily. That said, I understand why people would "quiet quit". Even with a good salary, it is very difficult to buy a house. Basically, you'll earn enough to be a good consumer but not enough to make any meaningful investments (besides gambling on the stock market, etc.).

 

[MichaelWitcoff]

The sad reality is that most Americans will make more over the course of their lifetimes by switching companies for more pay than by sticking with one company hoping for a raise every few years. Depends on the field to some degree I’m sure but if companies don’t want to take care of their people like they should, then they lose the right to complain when people bail for better prospects.

 

[It_is_my_time]

When I started working at my current company, I made 45k/year. Within roughly 5 years I was able to double it and had my employer pay for an advanced degree. I did all this while working 40h/week and treating a day off as a day off.
There is no need to slave away. If you bring something valuable to table, your company will treat you accordingly because they cannot replace you easily. That said, I understand why people would "quiet quit". Even with a good salary, it is very difficult to buy a house. Basically, you'll earn enough to be a good consumer but not enough to make any meaningful investments (besides gambling on the stock market, etc.).

I know a lot of professionals, obviously, I am getting up there and the only people I know are professionals. I live in a very conservative part of the country. I don't know anyone who can say what you have said. Are you in the USA? Most people I know are working nights and weekends. They do get promotions, but most of the time promotions come by job hoping around, often ending back up at the original company in a higher position a few years down the road.

Actually, most govt. workers put in right at 40 hours a week, and get days off, and all that fun stuff. This is considered such a big "benefit" that they often pay 25 to 50% below market value in return for a work-life balance.

Granted, I could job hop myself, but the reality is that I am a White Male. I am the last to be hired, the first to be "laid off" when downsizing comes, no matter what my value is to the company. Had I done this years ago, there is no way of knowing how it would have ended up. But the downside of it wasn't worth it to me.

 

[SonofTuribius]

Great discussion, thank you all for sharing. I am from and live in a south american country so I'm sure there are many contextual differences between here and the US, so I'll spare you from sharing my line of work, salary and other details.

What I want to share with you is HOPE. I know things are hard almost every where in the world right now, but being children of God we must trust that Our Loving Father will take care of everything we really need in order to fulfill our vocation on earth, our calling. This can't be just wishful thinking for christians, specially christian men, it is a certainty that gives us the solid ground we need to, for example, have a family and the boldness to pursuit sanctity in our everyday lives.

That is the proper framing of our jobs, we are the light and salt of the world! Wether we live in poverty or richness, wether we achieve promotions or don't, we cannot leave this earth without having the guts to seek Gods Will for our lives and following it.

This is a sad epoch, filled with injustice, hopelessness, a general hardening of the hearts. We can't be like that, we are the Joy of the world and in all his Wisdom, God has chosen us to work in these conditions, to face these challenges and to be fishers of men while doing so, even if doing so gets you fired or passed on for promotions.

Don't fall for despair, that's the enemies trick. Don't think you 'can' t afford a family', if God wills for you to be married, trust me He will find a way to make ends meet. Life is not about what you want, family or career wise, is about what God wants for you. So ask him and be bold enough to go for it.

That's my 2cents about it, writing from the poorer south to the center of the empire.

 

[MichaelWitcoff]

the reality is that I am a White Male. I am the last to be hired, the first to be "laid off" when downsizing comes, no matter what my value is to the company.

This may be true for cubicle jobs, but in the trades nobody cares about your race. You can either do the job or you can’t. And granted that while most framers and roofers seem to be Hispanic, the overwhelming majority of HVACRs, General Contractors, Plumbers and Electricians are white men. Plus the work is actually gratifying and you end the day feeling like you accomplished something that actually matters, which at least for me makes a big difference in job satisfaction.

In either case - and I think this is really the missing crux of the conversation - Christ commanded us not to be anxious about stuff like this, but to pursue righteousness and the Kingdom of God and trust that God will provide. Of course I say this as a hypocrite who has more work to do on this myself, but hopefully we can all help each other get there.

 

[infowarrior1]

My priest manages to raise 7 children on a 25K/year salary.

It's also about location. As much as about being frugal. I believe if that is unaffordable for a large family that he must be living in urban areas more closer to major cities or Democrat dominated areas.