Real estate thread

cosine

Kingfisher
Yes, those property taxes are unfortunately legitimate since they are income properties which would fall under the code.

Income tax is last on my list. Very difficult and you'll be dealing with the biggest shysters of all, the IRS. Plus, I'm still on W2 income, so no way around filing a 1040.

Do you house hack on your primary?
Yep -- I began by house-hacking my primary. Then I moved out of the house hack and started renting out a new place in a town a couple of hours away, where no one cared about covid. The house hack location was fully rented.

From the new location I bought the second home, also with owner-occupant financing, so under 3% interest.

Next I remodeled the kitchen in the new place, set it up on Airbnb, let a room open back up in the original house, and watch the second one cash flow nicely.

I spaced these moves out long enough that no one could contest the 12-month minimum owner occupant requirements on the loans. There's a group that advises people to move from house to house like this every 12 months until they have 5-10 houses and can declare financial independence. This works less well in the current environment with 7% interest rates. I'm hoping to stockpile enough cash to expand again if rates drop to say, 5%.
 

DanielH

Hummingbird
Moderator
Orthodox
So either:
1. values drop
2. interest rates drop
3. both drop.
4. The US enters a sustained period of worse home affordability; see Canada. Their chart averages closer to 35%.

I tend to think with BlackRock and others owning so many middle class US homes, we could see a bit of #4.

View attachment 53953
I'm no expert but given the state of things now, I expect a number 4, which would be a new normal like Canada (or Europe I assume) as you say.
 

cowboy

Sparrow
I agree with number 4 as well. Supposedly prices are dropping in California, Austin and Phoenix. However, in other places you aren’t seeing that. For example, in the Northeast there hasn’t been much of a correction. Houses are staying on the market longer but houses are still selling. There is less construction up here with building expense and of course fewer places to build. It will be interesting to see what happens with low inventory combined with more people who want to buy homes in the future. Many young couples just aren’t able to buy though.
 

grenade001

Woodpecker
Catholic
I'm no expert but given the state of things now, I expect a number 4, which would be a new normal like Canada (or Europe I assume) as you say.
Number 4 would be the most likely scenario. As observed in the "Real Estate" thread on the forum, people felt richer as the equity in their homes increased as nominal prices were inflated in 2020. Which as a result increased discretionary spending, in addition to the stimulus spending.

The current trajectory of social engineering doesn't seek for folk to be make roots or have ties to any one geographic locale. Making home ownership affordable would go against these goals of the social engineering.
 

grenade001

Woodpecker
Catholic
I agree with number 4 as well. Supposedly prices are dropping in California, Austin and Phoenix. However, in other places you aren’t seeing that. For example, in the Northeast there hasn’t been much of a correction. Houses are staying on the market longer but houses are still selling. There is less construction up here with building expense and of course fewer places to build. It will be interesting to see what happens with low inventory combined with more people who want to buy homes in the future. Many young couples just aren’t able to buy though.

I have noticed this as well in my local area. There are as many houses up for sale, and whilst they are selling, the upwards pressure on prices has softened. Most likely due to the higher interest rates. Over the next five years I could see prices stabilise, but very unlikely to decline to any meaningful extent.

At least in my greater region, there are still areas where young families can still have an opportunity to purchase somewhat affordable housing, though there would have to be compromises on location.

The major factor that seems to prevent a lot of young people from entering the market is the lack of stability among long term relationships these days. Boomers were mostly married when they bought their first home, whereas nowadays it is uncommon to find couples who have their affairs in order who have relationship longevity.

Purchasing a home together as merely boyfriend and girlfriend is perceived as a major jump for a lot of under 35s.
 

cosine

Kingfisher
This is behind a paywall now but is still how I view real estate.

A friend from South Africa has sent me links to a law there where the government basically created their version of Eminent Domain. Except in the US you have a fighting chance with lawsuits and can make it expensive for the government to take your land, to the point that they prefer to just build utilities and public works through poor neighborhoods. The South African version doesn't have any of that, they just decide that there is a "better need" for your property and they can take it.

This could happen in the US through taxation, but the gov't also needs rental housing for its citizens; so far they continue to create tax breaks for landlords.

Landlords control the earth.

SINCE the publication of "Capital in the Twenty-First Century", Thomas Piketty has won many plaudits for his work on inequality. The book has so far sold more than 1.5m copies. Its arguments have been praised by Nobel-prize winners and politicians alike. Last year it won the Financial Times's business book of the year award, despite the newspaper's attempts to poke holes in the book's data and arguments. On March 25th Prospect magazine put Mr Piketty atop its World Thinkers list for 2015 (alongside Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's leather-jacket wearing finance minister, Naomi Klein and Russell Brand, it should be noted). But a new challenge to Mr Piketty's book has just appeared, and from an unexpected direction.
On March 20th Matthew Rognlie (pictured), a 26-year-old graduate student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, presented a new paper at the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity. Although the paper began its life as a 459-word online blog post comment, several reputable economists regard it as the most serious and substantive critique that Mr Piketty's work has yet faced.
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Thomas Piketty's
In his book, Mr Piketty argues that over the long run the rate on return of wealth exceeds economic growth: a dynamic summed up in the equation r>g. Over time, this relationship increases inequality as the share of national income going to those who own capital (the rich) rises, while the portion going to labour (everyone else) falls. He also argues that the return on capital in recent history has been remarkably stable, even as economic growth has fallen, and that this trend will continue in the future.

Mr Rognlie mounts three main criticisms of these arguments. First, he argues that the rate of return from capital probably declines over the long run, rather than remaining high as Mr Piketty suggests, due to the law of diminishing marginal returns. Modern forms of capital, such as software, depreciate faster in value than equipment did in the past: a giant metal press might have a working life of decades while a new piece of database-management software will be obsolete in a few years at most. This means that although gross returns from wealth may well be rising, they may not necessarily be growing in net terms, since a large share of the gains that flow to owners of capital must be reinvested.

Second, Mr Rognlie’s research suggests that Mr Piketty has overestimated how high the returns on wealth are likely to be in the future. These should also decline over time, he reckons, unless it is very easy for the economy to substitute capital (like robots) for workers. Yet the historical evidence suggests that this is far harder than he suggests.

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And third, Mr Rognlie finds that the growing share of national income deriving from capital income has not been distributed equally across all sectors. The return on non-housing wealth, in fact, has been remarkably stable since 1970 (see chart). Instead, surging house prices are almost entirely responsible for growing returns on capital.
Mr Rognlie has critics of his own. He appears to underestimate the role changing technology plays in widening inequality (by increasing the substitutability of capital for labour, for instance, or by raising the demand to live in expensive cities). But his observation that it is homeowners in particular—rather than rentiers generally—who are grabbing a larger share of the pie is important for policy. Mr Piketty used the historical evidence in his book to argue that a global tax of up to 2% a year on individual wealth should be introduced in order to prevent capital concentrating in the hands of the few. But if housing wealth is the biggest source of rising wealth then a more focused approach is called for. Policy-makers should deal with the planning regulations and NIMBYism that inhibit housebuilding and which allow homeowners to capture super-normal returns on their investments.
Just how inconvenient Mr Rognlie's argument is for Mr Piketty's overarching narrative is a matter of perspective. The latter certainly did not make housing wealth the central theme of his bestselling book. But a story in which a privileged elite uses its political power (albeit through the planning system) to create economic rents for the few fits Mr Piketty's argument to a tee. Well-off homeowners may for the moment be more responsible for rising wealth inequality than top-hatted capitalists or famous hedge-fund managers. But their NIMBYism is a very Piketty-like phenomenon.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
The market here in NY around me is crashing. Houses that would get multiple cash bids for 15% over value a year ago aren’t getting offers at 10-15% below value.

There’s no volume. Only houses selling are listed 20%+ under value.

This sucks as we have been lining everything up to move to EE but can’t lose out on majority of potential profit in our house. Might have to stay until the rebound.
 

Monty_Brogan

Woodpecker
Gold Member
The market here in NY around me is crashing. Houses that would get multiple cash bids for 15% over value a year ago aren’t getting offers at 10-15% below value.

There’s no volume. Only houses selling are listed 20%+ under value.

This sucks as we have been lining everything up to move to EE but can’t lose out on majority of potential profit in our house. Might have to stay until the reboun

The future isn’t guaranteed. Sure as shit not in clown world USA. If you really want to move to EE I would cut and run this spring. What’s 20%? That ain’t shit. Yea I get it’s 6 figures, but you’ve obviously done your research into moving across pond. F’ the 20%, is that worth your happiness?

I wish I had a plan like that, sadly I’ll be going down with the ship.
 

mountainaire

Kingfisher
Orthodox Inquirer
The market here in NY around me is crashing. Houses that would get multiple cash bids for 15% over value a year ago aren’t getting offers at 10-15% below value.

There’s no volume. Only houses selling are listed 20%+ under value.

This sucks as we have been lining everything up to move to EE but can’t lose out on majority of potential profit in our house. Might have to stay until the rebound.
Yeah it's pretty brutal working in a real estate related field right now...

No sales volume is right. There's a Mexican stand-off happening between buyers and sellers. Buyers can't afford the inflated prices after years of artifical and unsustainable increases, and sellers either don't want to or can't afford to accept lower offers. So everyone's just standing around waiting to see what happens. Somethings gotta give. When it does, I expect sellers to panic sell to "beat" the crash, which will only exacerbate it.

Hard to call it a crash, though. It's a much needed market correction. Housing prices should have never gone that high to begin with.
 

Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
The future isn’t guaranteed. Sure as shit not in clown world USA. If you really want to move to EE I would cut and run this spring. What’s 20%? That ain’t shit. Yea I get it’s 6 figures, but you’ve obviously done your research into moving across pond. F’ the 20%, is that worth your happiness?

I wish I had a plan like that, sadly I’ll be going down with the ship.
It depends on what they still owe. The 20% drop in property value could be 80% of what they hoped to free up after realtor fees, moving cost, etc.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
The future isn’t guaranteed. Sure as shit not in clown world USA. If you really want to move to EE I would cut and run this spring. What’s 20%? That ain’t shit. Yea I get it’s 6 figures, but you’ve obviously done your research into moving across pond. F’ the 20%, is that worth your happiness?

I wish I had a plan like that, sadly I’ll be going down with the ship.
It’s significant as it’s the safety net I need to move abroad with two young children. It’s not about my happiness.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
Yeah it's pretty brutal working in a real estate related field right now...

No sales volume is right. There's a Mexican stand-off happening between buyers and sellers. Buyers can't afford the inflated prices after years of artifical and unsustainable increases, and sellers either don't want to or can't afford to accept lower offers. So everyone's just standing around waiting to see what happens. Somethings gotta give. When it does, I expect sellers to panic sell to "beat" the crash, which will only exacerbate it.

Hard to call it a crash, though. It's a much needed market correction. Housing prices should have never gone that high to begin with.
Thing is, the lines for open houses here are an hr long. There is still relatively low supply vs demand given it is NY. People are out and looking. It’s the damn interest rates on mortgages imo.

People need to see the rates come down. And that’s the quickest way to help the market recover. I just don’t see owners with low interest mortgages selling and exchanging for a high interest mortgage.
 
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berserker2001

Robin
Protestant
For those of you just sort of casually railing on landlords, which is sort of an old tired convenient scapegoat people like to point the finger at, have you actually been a landlord or know any landlord's personally? The vast majority of landlords are small business people (80% according to this study). Landlording is typically something you do, as a common normal every day person, after a real estate journey in flipping or being an agent or maybe working a different career than real estate. It's often part of a person's retirement strategy. It is not common that your landlord is some evil shadowy conglomerate.

Furthermore, at least where I live but I assume commonly across the nation, almost all laws heavily favor the tenant. I'm not sure I can even think of one law that favors the landlord (please advise). If you've ever gone through an eviction, you know:

  • An eviction can take at the short end 2-3 months but often much longer, especially if the tenant has secured a lawyer. The lawyer for a tenant is typically free of charge through government programs, but for the landlord your eating attorney costs in addition to not getting rent
  • A tenant can completely trash your place, including ripping out drywall, pouring cement down the drains, or feces down the ductwork, and you can't really do anything about it as a landlord until you go through the eviction process. Which again, is lengthy and the tenant could be just destroying your place free of charge.
  • It is shockingly easy to establish tenancy, and at least in my state even a verbal contract will often hold up in court. So it is very easy for someone to assume a "Squatter" situation in your property, without even a written lease, and never even pay you and you will need to evict them formally. Typically this is done by someone inadvertently inviting someone to stay for a short while, and things go from there. This is worse if they are an experienced squatter-they setup utilities and live quite nicely, just for free on the landlords dime.
  • Any attempt to remove squatters via changing locks or cutting off utilities, will result in a lawsuit against you, where again the tenant has a free lawyer. You can typically not sue a tenant however, because they have no money and they'll just file bankruptcy even if they did. that is assuming you even have their real name, as squatters are known to give a million fake aliases.
I'm probably leaving out other things I've come across, but the casual tropes levied against landlords is astonishingly unfounded and lazy
 

DanielH

Hummingbird
Moderator
Orthodox
For those of you just sort of casually railing on landlords
Who is doing this? I know several small time landlords - quite honest people. I aspire to be one one day. I think people here just have problems when you have conglomerates buying detached houses and administering them from afar.

There is a problem I've noticed of millennials buying a house and then letting it fall apart as they have no maintenance skills or desire to maintain their yards, then they end up moving back to a rental (which is where Schwarzstein sees an opportunity to grabble up another property and rent it out) or back in with their parents, but that is still a situation where fathers should have taught their sons how to maintain a house. As a millennial, I only know a few friends whose dads actually spent some time with them and taught them basic car or home maintenance skills.
 

Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
Who is doing this? I know several small time landlords - quite honest people. I aspire to be one one day. I think people here just have problems when you have conglomerates buying detached houses and administering them from afar.

There is a problem I've noticed of millennials buying a house and then letting it fall apart as they have no maintenance skills or desire to maintain their yards, then they end up moving back to a rental (which is where Schwarzstein sees an opportunity to grabble up another property and rent it out) or back in with their parents, but that is still a situation where fathers should have taught their sons how to maintain a house. As a millennial, I only know a few friends whose dads actually spent some time with them and taught them basic car or home maintenance skills.
I have seen plenty of posts saying landlords represent the oppressive finacialized decay of society, of using money to create more money instead of making money from actual production, a sign of our civilizational collapse, etc.

I agree with B2001 as someone who rents my home on Airbnb while I am out of town for work, and who plans to buy more properties as my retirement strategy.
 
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rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
Interesting landlord conversation.

That’s a plan B/C for me. Hire a property management company and rent my house so I can move abroad sooner, then sell when the market recovers.

That would also pay down my mortgage balance a little in the interim.

But in NY I know being a landlord carries real risk. A bad tenant can royalty screw up your situation. Too bad nowadays we have to be this concerned with even finding a decent human being.
 

Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
Interesting landlord conversation.

That’s a plan B/C for me. Hire a property management company and rent my house so I can move abroad sooner, then sell when the market recovers.

That would also pay down my mortgage balance a little in the interim.

But in NY I know being a landlord carries real risk. A bad tenant can royalty screw up your situation. Too bad nowadays we have to be this concerned with even finding a decent human being.
Rent it on Airbnb. The revenue is higher. The property manager can do all the work of booking and arranging for the cleaners. Airbnb tenants are less likely to try to stop paying rent, live there until evicted, and destroy the place in the process. Airbnb is not perfect, but it does provide some advantages compared with standard long term tenants.

You already have the place furnished, with kitchen stuff, linens, everything. I doubt you are planning to take all of this with you to EE. You may have to upgrade your furniture and décor a little to make it more of a showplace, but the rental income will pay that back quickly enough.
 

rainy

Pelican
Other Christian
Rent it on Airbnb. The revenue is higher. The property manager can do all the work of booking and arranging for the cleaners. Airbnb tenants are less likely to try to stop paying rent, live there until evicted, and destroy the place in the process. Airbnb is not perfect, but it does provide some advantages compared with standard long term tenants.

You already have the place furnished, with kitchen stuff, linens, everything. I doubt you are planning to take all of this with you to EE. You may have to upgrade your furniture and décor a little to make it more of a showplace, but the rental income will pay that back quickly enough.
My hesitancy would be I don’t think there’s much of an Airbnb market where I live and it wouldn’t offset my mortgage obligations.

At least with a tenant I can roll mortgage, taxes and markup into the monthly.
 
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