Reciprocity & Propertarianism (John Mark & Curt Doolittle)

BURNΞR

Pelican
Really? I was totally unsurprised. Why? Because it exalts legalistic ethics and robotic thinking. Of course it would only attract fringe-dwelling autists and lolbergs.

The character of the people ideas come from and the people who follow them are pretty good metrics to judge things by, even without looking at the fancy website.

Still, I spent hours watching John Mark's videos and reading the website last year and again recently, and I rejected it then and now. It's decidely anti-spiritual, which is a red flag for something claiming to be a solution in an era has a mighty need of genuine spirituality. It aims to be a vast all-encompassing mental paradigm, like a computer program, in a world where technologizing and bureaucratizing of all aspects of life and the resulting mass impersonal systems are already among our biggest problems. And we're supposed to believe that treating the entirety of our actions and knowledge like this is going to make it better?

No, Propertarianism was just one man's autistic pet project to try and order everything so that everybody stops being so darn "irrational" (i.e. human).

I meant to say I thought the movement would gain steam because of the riots, BLM, and increasing political polarisation/balkanization. I thought the movement would grow organically on the net. So yes, I was flabbergasted when I heard the whole thing cratered in a single day.

I still think his ideas are merited, especially the talk about reciprocity. My interpretation of this P stuff is meant to be meme to be propagated so society doesn't repeat the errors of the past and let itself be consumed by parasitism. It's meant for a post-secession era.

I think religion is a net positive considering how degenerate people are without a moral authority telling them what is right and wrong. Now, having said that it looks like religion is on it's way out. Scorpion mentioned the word demographics and it won't come to any surprise to any of you if I mention low birth rates unless we are talking about Muslims or Amish. Technology is rapidly outpacing the relevance of religion. Teenagers are more likely to be literate in Tiktok, Tinder and Twitter than ever having read a page of the bible or set foot in a church. I hate to drop black pills but it looks like the writing is on the wall. Of course, I would like nothing more than a society of God fearing men and chaste women but this is becoming a fantasy unless you want to move to Iran or live off-grid. It's banking on a miracle.

Maybe you're right and P is just an autistic pet project of Curt Doolittle. At least the guy gave a respectable effort and failed. I can't say the same about all the other dissident right wing groups LARPing Sieg Hiel salutes. I don't think any of us P guys actually believed it would be implemented in our lifetimes but the ideas were fresh and white pilling.
 
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Easy_C

Peacock
Keep in mind that “autism” has its place and Kurt is absolutely correct that business contracts look like programming language. We also know that because civil law is NOT required follow a similar, very precise mentality it opens up massive room for malicious prosecutors and officials to use loose interpretations of laws to invent crimes.

Of course there are always loopholes but the more difficult that kind of thing is the more durable the institutions are.

My larger point is that type of “autist” isn’t just useful but is actually essential. They just don’t belong at the forefront of things.

From a strategy person this thing failed because they didn’t segment their markets properly. JM should have handled the mass market side where he covers strategic analysis and broad discussions of the issues while you’d have the political works like Curt in the back cranking out more specialized work for the people who want to dig into the weeds.
 

Enigma

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Gold Member
Chad Christian monarch:

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Vs. Virgin Propertarian:

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Dusty

Peacock
Gold Member
I have to say, this whole thing cracks me up. I heard about this Doolittle thing a few times on this forum, not quite knowing what it was all about, just thinking it sounded autistic af. I did see a pic a while back of this dr Doolittle and I lol’d.

I thought this:

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Guys, physiognomy is real.

And now, the guy is confronted by some mild mannered BLM dudes, and he literally pisses his pants and tells them they have big dicks. Lol.

Some of y’all need to learn how to judge your gurus better.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
Eh. I think I had him nailed pretty well from the beginning where I’ve taken the piss on his personal attributes pretty hard. I’ve advocated for adopting some of his ideas not worshipping him. He’s demonstrated no small degree of narcissistic behavior in how he responds to criticism where he is able to always rationalize it as somehow invalid.


I’m curious why the hell they put him on stage. Curt himself has begrudgingly acknowledged he’s not good with people and nobody else in the movement disputed it.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Ostrich
Orthodox
Interviewed Doolittle on YouTube tonight. He spent most of the show yelling and calling me names, but I got him to completely drop the mask regarding his attitude toward Christians. I’m not convinced we would do any better as a group under Doolittle’s fantasy government than we tend to do under communism. He is insane about what he calls “Abrahamic deceit,” which in his mind is the belief in God, the soul, and an afterlife. Claimed he would give Christians a “special lying dispensation,” whatever that means, but he spent about thirty minutes totally demonized tonight and that level of wrath doesn’t bode well for Christians when the government is led by someone who hates us.
 

GodfatherPartTwo

Woodpecker
Interviewed Doolittle on YouTube tonight. He spent most of the show yelling and calling me names, but I got him to completely drop the mask regarding his attitude toward Christians. I’m not convinced we would do any better as a group under Doolittle’s fantasy government than we tend to do under communism. He is insane about what he calls “Abrahamic deceit,” which in his mind is the belief in God, the soul, and an afterlife. Claimed he would give Christians a “special lying dispensation,” whatever that means, but he spent about thirty minutes totally demonized tonight and that level of wrath doesn’t bode well for Christians when the government is led by someone who hates us.
Not sure how you endured that. The flesh makes me want to spit on the guy but the Spirit only makes me feel pity for him.
 

Pantheon

Sparrow
Orthodox
Interviewed Doolittle on YouTube tonight. He spent most of the show yelling and calling me names, but I got him to completely drop the mask regarding his attitude toward Christians. I’m not convinced we would do any better as a group under Doolittle’s fantasy government than we tend to do under communism. He is insane about what he calls “Abrahamic deceit,” which in his mind is the belief in God, the soul, and an afterlife. Claimed he would give Christians a “special lying dispensation,” whatever that means, but he spent about thirty minutes totally demonized tonight and that level of wrath doesn’t bode well for Christians when the government is led by someone who hates us.

I watched that and I think it demonstrated what an unhealthy rift there is between the spiritual and scientific view of life. Ideally these should complement rather than exclude each other. The methodological difference just really is how things work and what they mean or signify. These two perspectives utilize two different modes of thinking.

I've read some of Curt's stuff and I think he has some very interesting ideas. He is a hardcore empiricist, which doesn't necessarily conflict with Orthodoxy epistemologically. His critique of Abrahamism is really a critique of rationalistic, justificationist belief systems, which applies to Protestantism if anything. Orthodox spirituality is an embodied act of demonstration, not just empty belief in fairy tales. There is the act of faith, but it does not vilify the laws of nature in the same way as, say, creationism does. Because creationism mistakenly projects the literalist scientific mindset onto religious narratives.

So I think you could've potentially had a much more fruitful discussion, but he seems to be difficult to talk to.
 
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Easy_C

Peacock
He can’t be talked to. He’s got a thing going on similar to Vox where his narcissism has latched on a buzzword to justify itself and anyone who doesn’t see eye to eye with him is regarded as proof that you fall into the group with a bad buzzword name.

That tends to poison the well from what otherwise would be a fruitful discussion.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
I should add I still very much love the idea of focusing on reciprocity as a talking point.

It addresses everyone’s legitimate grievances and when I’ve tested it, using it backs leftists into a corner where they say things like “Well, I do favor stealing under certain circumstances”( actual quote). It also helps contain boomercon talking points used to defend the technocracy because the behavior those technocrats engage in is theft of people’s commons by any reasonable definition.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
I should add I still very much love the idea of focusing on reciprocity as a talking point.

It addresses everyone’s legitimate grievances and when I’ve tested it, using it backs leftists into a corner where they say things like “Well, I do favor stealing under certain circumstances”( actual quote). It also helps contain boomercon talking points used to defend the technocracy because the behavior those technocrats engage in is theft of people’s commons by any reasonable definition.
I agree, reciprocity was the best talking point propertarianism had. Beyond that it all became questionable. Yes, lying should not be tolerated, but it put a lot of the burden of enforcing truth on the courts, and therefore law enforcement. Courts are not infallible, so how do you keep them honest? It's not really fool-proof. Plus, with Curt Doolittle's hatred of Christianity, it's ridiculous to think Christianity would be respected.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Ostrich
Orthodox
Trump had four years to arrest lying politicians and journos, but sadly didn’t even try. I’m inclined to believe even 24 hours of being followed by a PI would reveal criminal behavior in such people more often than not - if lying is legal, which sadly it is, there were other ways to achieve the same end. Would have been a top priority if I was in charge.
 

PhatEarf

Sparrow
Trump had four years to arrest lying politicians and journos, but sadly didn’t even try. I’m inclined to believe even 24 hours of being followed by a PI would reveal criminal behavior in such people more often than not - if lying is legal, which sadly it is, there were other ways to achieve the same end. Would have been a top priority if I was in charge.
It's clear now Trump had no intention of draining the swamp. He said as much during press conferences, but Trump voters still wanted to believe. He was right when he said the Deep State hates Trump voters and treated him badly on purpose, but their real target would be the people. Why he never had a moment of courage to stand up for his voters after knowing that information will be a question for the ages.
 
Trump had four years to arrest lying politicians and journos, but sadly didn’t even try. I’m inclined to believe even 24 hours of being followed by a PI would reveal criminal behavior in such people more often than not - if lying is legal, which sadly it is, there were other ways to achieve the same end. Would have been a top priority if I was in charge.
I just watched your interview and thanks for exposing him! I'm ashamed to say that I was intrigued by John Mark when he had his first couple of videos about civil war in America. Curt Doo little always reminded me of Cameron from American History X but I tolerated him as long as John Mark backed him up. In the early John Mark videos they always downplayed their hatred for Christianity. It took Richmond for me to realize what a clown he is but your video and St Edward's interview showed he's a flat out lunatic. BRAVO.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Ostrich
Orthodox
Yeah, I was pretty into John Mark's videos for a while as well. I didn't really understand what was going on until later, but I'm glad I was able to expose him and that you found the video useful.
 
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