Roosh Hour #72 – Winter Call-In Special

[MsJNix]

The Fatima apparitions are sketchy at best. The nice, tidy little story you get from websites and books, the one that makes it sound like a nice little fairy tale of Mother Mary appearing to some children is NOT what the actual recorded events and reports from the children themselves said and reported. Rome, once again, in the tradition of the False Decretals and the Donation of Constantine, has done some very serious editorializing.

Here is a good Orthodox take on Fatima: https://www.rusjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Fatima.pdf

Catholics do not need to believe in these apparitions, but they have brought healings of body and soul to many.

Private revelations and apparitions of our Lady go back almost to the beginning of Christianity. St. Gregory of Nyssa (d. 394) tells of an appearance of our Lady and St. John the Apostle to St. Gregory the Wonderworker a century earlier (d.ca. 270). Our lady spoke to St. John, asking him to make known to Gregory 'the mystery of true piety,'.

More recently are the appearances to Juan Diego in Mexico of Our Lady of Guadalupe in 1531, which led to millions of conversions, appearances to St. Catherine Laboure in 1830 which led to the miraculous medal, and Lourdes in 1858 to St. Bernadette Soubirous, which led to many physical and spiritual healings.

Pius X said: "such apparitions or revelations have neither been approved nor condemned by the Apostolic See, but it has been permitted piously to believe them merely with human faith, with due regard to the tradition they bear."

Why all the concern and criticisms when so much good can come out of them?

 

[messaggera]

My Catholic great grandparents and grandparents would yearly attend a national Roman Catholic Church Shrine to the Virgin Mary, and participated in religious processions for the Feast of Assumption of Mary. Along with the Rosary (53 Hail Marys compared to five Our Fathers) my grandparents were devoted to the Virgin Mary.

Pius X said: "such apparitions or revelations have neither been approved nor condemned by the Apostolic See, but it has been permitted piously to believe them merely with human faith, with due regard to the tradition they bear."

The Pius X statement does not deny the Absolute Truth, but rather permits piously . Permitting is consenting to these claims that can not be defended.

The Pius X statement is an example of Pragmatic Theory of Truth, which is focusing on Mary as the human faith.
Mary is not the Absolute Truth. The Son of God is the Absolute Truth.


Corrections to misinterpretations are encouraged.

Why all the concern and criticisms when so much good can come out of them?

Papal infallibility is not Biblical - God's Word. Perhaps?
Concerns are a part of Discerning of Spirits found more than 100 times in scripture (Old and New Testaments).


The Catholic Church's title for Francis of Assisi is a reminder to discern the Catholic Church's teachings at times. Even today the Pope has disregarded the Ten Commandments, let alone for a "Catholic Shepard" - Bishop:

Pope Francis admitted that while there was perhaps a violation of the sixth commandment not to commit adultery, it was “not totally” a violation in Aupetit’s case.

There were “small caresses, massages…This is the accusation,” he said, saying “This is a sin, but it’s not among the most serious, no?” [source link]

 

[MsJNix]

My Catholic great grandparents and grandparents would yearly attend a national Roman Catholic Church Shrine to the Virgin Mary, and participated in religious processions for the Feast of Assumption of Mary. Along with the Rosary (53 Hail Marys compared to five Our Fathers) my grandparents were devoted to the Virgin Mary.



The Pius X statement does not deny the Absolute Truth, but rather permits piously . Permitting is consenting to these claims that can not be defended.

The Pius X statement is an example of Pragmatic Theory of Truth, which is focusing on Mary as the human faith.
Mary is not the Absolute Truth. The Son of God is the Absolute Truth.


Corrections to misinterpretations are encouraged.



Papal infallibility is not Biblical - God's Word. Perhaps?
Concerns are a part of Discerning of Spirits found more than 100 times in scripture (Old and New Testaments).


The Catholic Church's title for Francis of Assisi is a reminder to discern the Catholic Church's teachings at times. Even today the Pope has disregarded the Ten Commandments, let alone for a "Catholic Shepard" - Bishop:

My point was that the results of these apparitions brought conversions and healing. Mexico went from a pagan country to a Christian one because of our Blessed Mother's appearances to Juan Diego in Mexico (Our Lady of Guadalupe) in 1531. How can anyone think that this was not from God? Jesus said, " 'My true disciples produce much fruit. This brings great glory to my Father'" (John 15:8 ). Jesus also said, "'By their fruits you will know them'" (Matthew 7:20 ).

 

[Cavalier]

My point was that the results of these apparitions brought conversions and healing. Mexico went from a pagan country to a Christian one because of our Blessed Mother's appearances to Juan Diego in Mexico (Our Lady of Guadalupe) in 1531. How can anyone think that this was not from God? Jesus said, " 'My true disciples produce much fruit. This brings great glory to my Father'" (John 15:8 ). Jesus also said, "'By their fruits you will know them'" (Matthew 7:20 ).

One apparition being authentic does not mean that another one is also authentic.

 

[MsJNix]

One apparition being authentic does not mean that another one is also authentic.

You don't have to believe any of it, that was not the point I was making.

 

[messaggera]

My point was that the results of these apparitions brought conversions and healing. Mexico went from a pagan country to a Christian one because of our Blessed Mother's appearances to Juan Diego in Mexico (Our Lady of Guadalupe) in 1531. How can anyone think that this was not from God?

Have you been to the Aztec ruins, and heard the stories told from locals about the brutality of the Spanish conquistadors? And how the Vatican stole artifacts and historical documents that can be found only in the Vatican library? I have been and heard the stories, along with researching once hearing the testimonies decades ago.

Where is the evidence mass Christian conversion was the result of these appearances witnessed by Juan Diego? The Catholic Church oppressed and kidnapped natives and were forced into Christianity. This current pope has yet to make an apology as requested by Mexico.

What Church confirmed Juan Diego as a Saint? The same church that canonized and still only recognizes Francis Assisi as a saint. The Roman Catholic Church.

His existence, which had been questioned by Catholics and non-Catholics alike, was confirmed by the Vatican, and Juan Diego was beatified on May 6, 1990, and canonized on July 31, 2002, by Pope John Paul II. Numerous miracles have been attributed to him, and he remains one of the most popular and important saints in Mexico. Britannica

I understand your point, but I have to again ask how does an individual trust the acts of the Vatican given these historical accounts?

“History is written by Victors.” - Winston Churchill

 

[MsJNix]

I understand your point, but I have to again ask how does an individual trust the acts of the Vatican given these historical accounts?

What historical accounts? Can you provide me some evidence?

 

[MsJNix]

Have you been to the Aztec ruins, and heard the stories told from locals about the brutality of the Spanish conquistadors? And how the Vatican stole artifacts and historical documents that can be found only in the Vatican library? I have been and heard the stories, along with researching once hearing the testimonies decades ago.

Where is the evidence mass Christian conversion was the result of these appearances witnessed by Juan Diego? The Catholic Church oppressed and kidnapped natives and were forced into Christianity. This current pope has yet to make an apology as requested by Mexico.

What Church confirmed Juan Diego as a Saint? The same church that canonized and still only recognizes Francis Assisi as a saint. The Roman Catholic Church.

You are forgetting about the missionaries and priests that risked their lives to bring the word of God to the pagans. If things were stolen, it was the work of the Spanish government. They used their power to obtain riches from all the countries they conquered. Why was Mexico not converted to the Orthodox religion? Why were there no Orthodox missionaries risking their lives to baptize and spread the faith? I am asking this because I have often wondered why they did not don't go out to all nations to bring converts to the Christian faith. Even the Protestants preach the gospel to other nations. Where is the proof the Catholic church kidnapped the natives and forced Christianity upon them? Who could create an image like the one that appeared to Juan Diego? I am certain he did not create it. Read these ten amazing facts. Where did it come from if not from God?

About the Miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe​

facts https://vivaguadalupe.org/news/ten-amazing-facts

 

[josemiguel]

Have you been to the Aztec ruins, and heard the stories told from locals about the brutality of the Spanish conquistadors?

Have you studied all the other tribes in what was New Spain who allied with the Spanish to be free of the Aztecs? Next you'll be complaining about Joshua destroying Jericho.

The Catholic Church oppressed and kidnapped natives and were forced into Christianity

Outliers aren't the norm. To apply that equally, I might as well as blame all Americans for plundering Panama.

This current pope has yet to make an apology as requested by Mexico.

The Mexican government is Masonic. Why apologize for freeing thousands of tribes from a bloodthirsty Satan-worshiping human-sacrificing cannibalizing cult?

 

[Palestrina]

My Catholic great grandparents and grandparents would yearly attend a national Roman Catholic Church Shrine to the Virgin Mary, and participated in religious processions for the Feast of Assumption of Mary. Along with the Rosary (53 Hail Marys compared to five Our Fathers) my grandparents were devoted to the Virgin Mary.

The Rosary is essentially a special form of devotion to Mary, honoring her whom God Himself so honored. And it honors her particularly in her relation to Christ, whose life is the subject of the meditations. The Our Father abstracts from the incarnation of Christ; the Hail Mary is full of reverence to Our Lord's birth into this world for us. One takes a set of beads, divided into five sections, each section consisting of one large bead and ten small ones. Holding the large bead, one says the Our Father, and on each of the small ones, the Hail Mary. Between each section or decade the Gloria is said. While saying the prayers, one meditates or thinks of the joys, or sorrows, or glories of Christ's life and of that of His Mother. It is a very beautiful form of prayer with which you object to merely because you not understand it. Your trouble seems to be based on the mere question of number. That is quite immaterial.

 

[messaggera]

@Palestrina and @darknavigator

I venerate the Mother of God, Mary.
A fact on the Rosary was presented from childhood remembrance (a personal Catholicism practice).

Rather than using the opportunity to strengthen fellowship, as a Christian, you chose to exaggerate a sense of your own importance by indicating a false claim on my understanding of the significance the Rosary is to Catholics.

It is a very beautiful form of prayer with which you object to merely because you not understand it. Your trouble seems to be based on the mere question of number. That is quite immaterial.

Sincere: May peace and grace fill your heart this Nativity Season, and that you may find Christian fellowship within this forum as a Catholic.

 

[nagareboshi]

I wanted to say that, for that caller who was interested in Sigmund Freud, regarding id and ego and superego, the Orthodox Catholic church DOES have very sophisticated spiritual methods to introspect on the soul and to make judgments on good thoughts and evil thoughts, and I have found them to be much more beneficial and fruitful than the writings of Sugma Fraud. The sayings of the desert fathers, the life of Anthony, and the spiritual counsels of St. Paisios are a good place to start.

 

[NoMoreTO]

Have you been to the Aztec ruins, and heard the stories told from locals about the brutality of the Spanish conquistadors? And how the Vatican stole artifacts and historical documents that can be found only in the Vatican library? I have been and heard the stories, along with researching once hearing the testimonies decades ago.

Where is the evidence mass Christian conversion was the result of these appearances witnessed by Juan Diego? The Catholic Church oppressed and kidnapped natives and were forced into Christianity. This current pope has yet to make an apology as requested by Mexico.

What Church confirmed Juan Diego as a Saint? The same church that canonized and still only recognizes Francis Assisi as a saint. The Roman Catholic Church.



I understand your point, but I have to again ask how does an individual trust the acts of the Vatican given these historical accounts?

Catholicism in Latin America is the evidence. Almost every house in Latin America has a copy of the image of the miracle of Guadalupe to this day. Only recently has the faith been weakened there as it has in so many other places.

Just because Aztec pagan apologetics are springing back up in our modern times doesn't mean they are true. Go cry for the pagan native if you want who is asking for an apology from 500 years ago so he can worship the sun god and eat childrens brains.

Our Lady of Guadalupe is a physical miracle which can be viewed and scientists have actually confirmed the remarkable lack of deterioration of the cloth. You could have taken the tour there at the holy site but you went to see the pagan temples. Your call not mine, and your arguments are based on your chosen experience.

 

[messaggera]

Catholicism in Latin America is the evidence.

Yes. Mexico is considered Latin America, but the rebuttal argument was in regard to the Aztecs (Mexico) and the posters claim:

Mexico went from a pagan country to a Christian one because of our Blessed Mother's appearances to Juan Diego in Mexico (Our Lady of Guadalupe) in 1531. How can anyone think that this was not from God?

Mexico is nominally referred to Roman Catholic; therefor claiming the appearance to Juan Diego in Mexico in 1951 is a deficient argument for why natives in Mexico became Roman Catholic. One rebuttal to the Juan Diego claim, and a stronger argument for why natives were forced into Christianity can be made:

The Vatican / Catholic Church is responsible for the abundant amount of sin committed against the native peoples in the name of God during the so-called conquest of America *​

your arguments are based on your chosen experience.

The arguments are based off the experience of researching - the multiple credible citations available on this topic through the Internet.
Hoping no one on this forum would continue to make an argument without researching as part of his or her rebuttal process.


[Sincere] I ask the O Lord Almighty:

to receive our supplications which, we, daring because of the multitude of Thy compassions, offer Thee at the present time from defiled lips; and forgive us our sins, in deed, word, and thought, whether committed by us knowingly or in ignorance, and cleanse us from every defilement of flesh and spirit....Oh Lord, have mercy on us sinners. Amen.

 

[NoMoreTO]

Mexico is nominally referred to Roman Catholic;

What does nominally mean? Is 96% nominal? Is being the only permissible Church for over 300 years nominal?

Catholics are 82.7%[8] of the total population,[9] down from 96% in 1970.

At independence, the Catholic Church kept its status as the only permissible church in Mexico. In the mid-nineteenth century, Mexican liberals curtailed the exclusive standing of the church, Source_Wikipedia

The virgin of Guadalupe appeared in 1531, approximately 400+ years later in 1970, 96% of the population still identified as Catholic.

It's important when researching to not lose sight of the high level facts. Also a Catholic shouldn't really go reading pagan apologetics or actively criticizing Church approved apparitions. As mentioned above, you aren't required as a Catholic to put your Faith in them.

 

[Mountaineer]

How many Mexicans are regularly attending church?

 

[NoMoreTO]

How many Mexicans are regularly attending church?

Are we talking about today, or in the 400 years following the apparition? The population went from 0% Catholic to 96%.

Yes, Mexicans today are nominally Catholic, but this isn't in any way a proof that mexico did not convert. It did, and nearly all of Latin America to boot.

 

[Mountaineer]

I asked how many of them attend now.

 

[Cavalier]

I asked how many of them attend now.

I did a quick web search. It would seem that 44% of Mexicans attend at least once per week as opposed to 39% for American Catholics.

 

[josemiguel]

One rebuttal to the Juan Diego claim, and a stronger argument for why natives were forced into Christianity can be made:

The Vatican / Catholic Church is responsible for the abundant amount of sin committed against the native peoples in the name of God during the so-called conquest of America

1 Natives were no more forced than emperors like St Constantine or Theodosius forced the Romans to convert
2 The Vatican had little control over the Spanish Church, let alone the Empire. If they did, explain Carlos marching on Rome.

why natives in Mexico became Roman Catholic

Much of New Spain was won diplomatically. Practically every tribe wanted free from the Aztec yoke. Most tribal chiefs and kings converted and submitted to the Spanish crown to be free of them, like the Tlaxcala. When a king converted he ordered his subjects to do so. So did St. Vladimir and the kings/emperors of Armenia and Ethiopia.

Most societies weren't individualistic like the modern AngloSaxon.