Church Russian Orthodox Church

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
This is a very uncharitable and unnecessary statement which doesn't reflect well on you. It would be one thing to simply speak dispassionately of the canons, but you're just throwing mud at a local Church in a red-blooded manner. The defamatory statements actually have nothing to do with the canons you are alluding to and variations of these statements could equally be leveled at the EP. However nothing positive will result from such back and forth. We should have more self-control.
putting quotes around patriarchate and the word “lapdog” was a hyperbolic, but what he says about the covidianism, ecumenism, caeseropapism, and territorial squabbles applies to multiple jurisdictions and are modern problems facing the church. If Patriarch Bartholomew is open to criticism for his errors then shouldn’t other jurisdictions that make similar errors also be?
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
MP is giving a gut punch to the Greeks in retaliation over EP’s wrongdoing in Ukraine. What is sad to me is that the bishops care so much about their power and territory, but, as you mention, they try to outdo each other with who can kiss the Pope’s ring. Ecumenism is the biggest threat the Church faces now.
Ecumenism is very far from being the biggest threat to the Church right now. The unpreparedness of our youth to face up to secularism due to a lack of proper catechesis is by far the bigger threat. This results in the majority of nominally Orthodox youth leaving the Church. Ecumenism is something that is overblown by people that like to read a lot of theology but has zero impact on most people living a normal parish life in obedience to their confessor. For every one church-goer that is tempted by an overly ecumenistic stance you probably have 200 nominal Orthodox who don't go to church.
 

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
Ecumenism is very far from being the biggest threat to the Church right now. The unpreparedness of our youth to face up to secularism due to a lack of proper catechesis is by far the bigger threat. This results in the majority of nominally Orthodox youth leaving the Church. Ecumenism is something that is overblown by people that like to read a lot of theology but has zero impact on most people living a normal parish life in obedience to their confessor. For every one church-goer that is tempted by an overly ecumenistic stance you probably have 200 nominal Orthodox who don't go to church.
Ecumenism is a fruit of secularism. Ecumenistic ideas prevents many from getting a proper baptism. Ecumenistic ideas have resulted in orthodox Christians having 2 dates for Christmas and Epiphany. Ecumenism is the laying the ground for the religion of the Antichrist. This has a tangible effect on the church life. Then with caeseropapism, we get the implementation of the state’s health rules through liturgical innovation.
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
putting quotes around patriarchate and the word “lapdog” was a hyperbolic, but what he says about the covidianism, ecumenism, caeseropapism, and territorial squabbles applies to multiple jurisdictions and are modern problems facing the church. If Patriarch Bartholomew is open to criticism for his errors then shouldn’t other jurisdictions that make similar errors also be?
You can call it hyperbolic, I would say it breaks forum rules to use such language to refer to a local Church. We wouldn't accept someone calling our mother a lapdog, why is it acceptable for a local Church. Notice I didn't say that all of the accusations were entirely without foundation, but (1) they're overstated/exaggerated in a manner that just inflames passions without being constructive and (2) if we're actually interested in the issue at hand, why would we deviate onto vaccination or ecumenism. These things can of course be discussed, and are in other places, but they're not pertinent to the issue of how the canons relate to what is happening in Africa.
 
Last edited:

Penitent

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Ecumenism was much more of a threat to the church in the second half of the 20th century and has in a sense been dealt with in that there were numerous church writers, some of them saints, who 'sounded the alarm' and informed the faithful of the dangers of this problem. Maybe it is still a problem, but not what it was.

I think when @OrthoSerb alludes to the unpreparedness of our youth he might be reflecting on the fact that many of the members of this forum are new converts who have zeal for the Faith that has not yet been tempered by the experience of years of struggling in the Faith. This untempered zeal comes through all too clearly on the pages of this forum sometimes.
 

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
You can call it hyperbolic, I would say it breaks forum rules to use such language to refer to a local Church. We wouldn't accept someone calling our mother a lapdog, why is it acceptable for a local Church. Notice I didn't say that all of the accusations were entirely without foundation, but (1) they're overstated/exaggerated in a manner that just inflames passions without being constructive and (2) if we're actually interested in the issue at hand, why would we deviate onto vaccination or ecumenism. These things can of course be discussed, and are in other places, but they're not pertinent to the issue of how the canons relate to what is happening in Africa.
I agree with that. Lets not refer to any church with valid mysteries (whether EP or MP) with explosive terms. The topic did deviate. Its better to isolate the topic as much as possible. In addition to canons I’d add that there’s also the “who had it coming to them based on how they’ve acted” angle, don’t you agree? That angle was brought up by the EP in the the Ukraine fiasco, which is part of the the background for what happened here.
 

NickK

 
Banned
Orthodox
These things can of course be discussed, and are in other places, but they're not pertinent to the issue of how the canons relate to what is happening in Africa.
They are very pertinent. These things are the reason for the blatant violation of canons in Africa (and in Cyprus before and in eastern Greece in the near future). The RP has decided long ago to take over Primacy form Constantinople, by force if necessary. They bribe, lie, threaten, spread propaganda. That's their business. It's called "the Third Rome" dellusion. Whoever calls this harlot, a mother, shame on you.
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
Ecumenism was much more of a threat to the church in the second half of the 20th century and has in a sense been dealt with in that there were numerous church writers, some of them saints, who 'sounded the alarm' and informed the faithful of the dangers of this problem. Maybe it is still a problem, but not what it was.
Indeed, this is reflected in the Saints that have been canonised in the last 30 years (St Paisios, St Joseph the Hesychast etc).
I think when @OrthoSerb alludes to the unpreparedness of our youth he might be reflecting on the fact that many of the members of this forum are new converts who have zeal for the Faith that has not yet been tempered by the experience of years of struggling in the Faith. This untempered zeal comes through all too clearly on the pages of this forum sometimes.
Whilst the zeal of new converts can obviously be a problem if they're not acting in obedience to a sober spiritual father, I wasn't actually alluding to that. I think by far the bigger problem is the way that the majority of cradle Orthodox are raised. It probably deserves a separate thread.
 

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
Indeed, this is reflected in the Saints that have been canonised in the last 30 years (St Paisios, St Joseph the Hesychast etc).

Whilst the zeal of new converts can obviously be a problem if they're not acting in obedience to a sober spiritual father, I wasn't actually alluding to that. I think by far the bigger problem is the way that the majority of cradle Orthodox are raised. It probably deserves a separate thread.
If it’s not a threat, we wouldn’t have MP Havana declaration against proselytism of Catholics, EP push to commune non orthodox spouses, jurisdictions that will NOT baptize Catholics or Protestants (because of Ecumenistic ecclesiology), the preaching of many clergy that Monophysitism is equivalent to Orthodox. I disagree and think it’s relevant today.
 

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
They are very pertinent. These things are the reason for the blatant violation of canons in Africa (and in Cyprus before and in eastern Greece in the near future). The RP has decided long ago to take over Primacy form Constantinople, by force if necessary. They bribe, lie, threaten, spread propaganda. That's their business. It's called "the Third Rome" dellusion. Whoever calls this harlot, a mother, shame on you.
It’s extreme to declare an orthodox church as graceless
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
They are very pertinent. These things are the reason for the blatant violation of canons in Africa (and in Cyprus before and in eastern Greece in the near future). The RP has decided long ago to take over Primacy form Constantinople, by force if necessary. They bribe, lie, threaten, spread propaganda. That's their business. It's called "the Third Rome" dellusion. Whoever calls this harlot, a mother, shame on you.
Brother, if you want to discuss these issues then learn to control yourself. I love Greek people, but you're displaying all the signs of that fiery temperament where all reason goes out of the window and everything descends to the level of street language and football-hooligan style tribalism. This is one of the problems I've noticed - namely that many people seem to view this topic from the perspective of national pride and dignity. Non-Greeks and non-Russians have no interest in which nation is greater and they're not "choosing sides" based on some historical tribal loyalty that is owed to anyone. The truth and the universal Church are too important to allow partisan emotions to dominate discussions.
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
If it’s not a threat, we wouldn’t have MP Havana declaration against proselytism of Catholics, EP push to commune non orthodox spouses, jurisdictions that will NOT baptize Catholics or Protestants (because of Ecumenistic ecclesiology), the preaching of many clergy that Monophysitism is equivalent to Orthodox. I disagree and think it’s relevant today.
I'm not saying there is no threat, there clearly is one. The point is one of emphasis, especially in relation to a few decades ago. It is not anywhere near to being the number one issue facing the Church. The Church is not just Bishops and the diplomatic statements they issue after high level meetings with the heterodox. Its also the millions of baptised people that don't know the first thing about the importance of a prayer rule or the centrality of the Liturgy. They just see the Church as some cultural relic that lines up with their ethnic heritage and no more than that. In say Serbia, Russia or Greece there are no Monophysites around for the most part and most laypeople wouldn't be able to define what Monophysitism is. No parish I've ever heard of in those countries communes non-Orthodox. On the other hand, well under 10% of people live a Liturgical life. In the US, if we take the 2nd/3rd generation Orthodox, probably closer to 1% go to Church every Sunday. For me at least, that's the number one problem to focus on. Clearly we could be doing better, to say the least.
 

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
I wonder how many of the people monitoring the internet for ecumenism are addicted to pornography, masturbation, alcohol, or some other matter that is far more pressing and immediate for their salvation than what people on the other side of the planet are doing or not doing.
This is all important. I hope we are concerned about our own salvation as well as the salvation of others. We cannot neglect our own salvation. There are people who ‘monitor’ for these things so that we don’t have to do all the research on our own because no one has the resources to reinvent the wheel. There are many articles and videos on ecumenism, secularism, ethnophyletism, caeseropapism, covidianism, etc, including things that happen on our side of the planet. One of my friends has an ecumenism playlist. Not only is this joint prayer weird but the ison seems out of tune.
 

frjohnwhiteford

Chicken
Orthodox
Priest
It is clearly a violation of multiple canons.
Not surprising from the "Patriarchate" that sunctioned multiple spoons for Divine Communion, encouraged vaccination, signed the Havanna document with the Roman para-Synagogue and has endorsed and continued Sergius' phronema (i.e. to be a lapdog of the secular Russian KGB-led state).
What canon said that we could establish parishes in the jurisdiction of the Roman Patriarchate?
 

Lawrence87

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I wonder how many of the people monitoring the internet for ecumenism are addicted to pornography, masturbation, alcohol, or some other matter that is far more pressing and immediate for their salvation than what people on the other side of the planet are doing or not doing.
This.

It is similar to becoming embroiled in parish gossip, just kinda writ large. Yes, there are problems in the church. If you go looking for them with fervor, you'll find them. But really the point is our salvation, which is not attained by going on the hunt for other people's problems. Of course you will find or imagine issues with all the jurisdictions, and if you want to go down the path of declaring them graceless then you'll end up stuck at home in your little church of one, being your own self-righteous Pope.

Edit to add: essentially we should be looking at how we are a problem in the church rather than how anyone else is. After all Patriarch so and so's actions and opinions are beyond our control, but we can control how much we bring worldliness into the church through our passions, and how our lack of love or generosity might be working to the detriment of the church.
 
Last edited:
Top