Self help gurus urging men to stay single in their twenties

GibsMeDat

Sparrow
I've come across a bunch of self improvement gurus who urge you to stay single, at least in your early twenties, and then only settle down after 30 or even later twenties.

Assuming you stay out of fornication, is this recommendable? I feel it will be harder to meet and court younger women as you get older.
 

Waverer

Robin
Good question. I would say if you meet someone you want to spend your life with it would be a huge mistake to hold on until you're in your 30s. There is truth to the idea that good women get snapped up more and more. If you want a religious girl this is even more true. On the other hand you'll probably be more attractive and confident when older.

But if you are seriously avoiding both fornication and masturbation why would you sit around sexually frustrated into your 30s rather than just make a real effort to find the right person?
 
In the current game it makes a lot of sense. The dating market for younger guys is brutal and SMV for men peaks around 35. And some of the few sane women out there are willing to settle down with a 35+ year old guy in their mid twenties as they know he is much more likely to stick around and value them. If you focus on your career, work on your body and status all the way from 20-35 the quality of the women you have access to is much better than if you decide to settle for what the dating market offers you around 20-25.
 
In the west the best strategy is simple, make the $$$ you need to pull off an early retirement. Then (and only then) consider a woman, reality is that when you retire somewhere like the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam etc your the big fish in the tiny pond. Nothing keeps a woman faithful like the knowledge that you can ditch her for a younger model in an instant.
 

scorpion

Ostrich
Gold Member
The glaring problem with this strategy is that 99% of the most marriageable women will already be married or engaged by the age of 25 to guys from their own age cohort. Contrary to popular belief in some corners of the manosphere, the vast majority of high-value young women are not sitting around at age 20 hoping to marry a 35 or 40 year old guy. Do you know why? Because they are already dating a guy approximately their own age from their social circle. High value women are essentially never single, especially in their prime. They have too many options and unless you have an eight-figure net worth and/or some kind of fame/status, your chances of convincing one of these girls to marry you when you're already pushing middle age are slim to none. That's the reality of it.

Does that mean a 35 year old can't marry a 20 year old? Absolutely not. It just means that a 35 year old is not going to marry a high value 20 year old. And to clarify, high value in this context could be defined as a girl who is attractive, intelligent, not sexually promiscuous, emotionally stable, comes from a good family environment and who is interested in starting a family in her 20s. There are not a ton of those girls to go around, and the guys who are fortunate enough to date one of them as a young man usually realize their good fortune (or are clued in on it by their older relatives) and marry her within a few years. If you think you're going to just live in some sort of monk mode until you're 30 and then effortlessly court and woo high value young women, you're delusional.

If you want a good wife to start a family with, your best bet is to meet her when you're both as young as possible. There are really no exceptions to this rule. Do not think that you need to spend a decade "working on your career" or otherwise perfecting yourself as much as possible in order to find a good woman. A good woman is not going to somehow distract you from your professional ambitions. If anything, having a good woman in one's life universally makes men better in that regard. You're more disciplined, more responsible, harder working. The much bigger danger to most young men these days is wasting your twenties chasing meaningless sex and playing video games. And then you wake up at 30 and realize it's time to settle down and you're left with the dregs and rejects of the dating pool. The leftover women, who are leftover for a reason. The prime women were already scooped up in their high school and college years, and the next-best were engaged by their mid-20s. "But scorpion," you say, "It's fine. I know that. I'm just going to marry one of those younger girls, not one of the used up, damaged ones who spent the last decade getting pumped and dumped." Well good luck. You're gonna need it. Because it doesn't happen very often. The best you're likely to do is settling for a girl without kids who recently came out of a long relationship/marriage. And that's a whole other kind of baggage to deal with.

In the end the matter is simple. Your odds of finding a good, high-value wife are much higher among 20 year olds than 30 year olds. And the reality is that it is much easier to date a 20 year old girl as a 20-22 year old man than it is as a 30-40 year old man. The social and logistical advantages of being younger simply far outweigh the financial and experiential advantages of age in this case. If you want to start a family, find a good woman and find her early.
 

Blade Runner

Pelican
If one agrees with scorpion's assumptions (I don't disagree necessarily) the tl;dr is:

There aren't many quality women at all, anymore. That's because his implicit suggestion is that "quality" women don't put things like marriage off or delay it ... but they are the ones in fact delaying it en masse (it matters not whose "fault" it is). It really doesn't matter what advice you give to men, save for possibly reminding them to not eschew a good woman if you are lucky enough to meet one early on. Remember, if you aren't from a structured or arranged marriage society, there is absolutely no way around the reality that women are the gatekeepers and choosers. Thus, my quick analysis of his thesis.
 

SQWAT

Pigeon
I can attest, as one who got married at 32 to a wife at 31, your pressed for time to have kids. The medical advice is to have all your kids by 35 (for women) to best avoid defects and complications. I’m glad we had a few years in marriage before kids, but it gets harder and more worrisome to have kids at a later age. My advice, getting married early is best.
 

Uprising

Woodpecker
The glaring problem with this strategy is that 99% of the most marriageable women will already be married or engaged by the age of 25 to guys from their own age cohort. Contrary to popular belief in some corners of the manosphere, the vast majority of high-value young women are not sitting around at age 20 hoping to marry a 35 or 40 year old guy. Do you know why? Because they are already dating a guy approximately their own age from their social circle. High value women are essentially never single, especially in their prime. They have too many options and unless you have an eight-figure net worth and/or some kind of fame/status, your chances of convincing one of these girls to marry you when you're already pushing middle age are slim to none. That's the reality of it.

Does that mean a 35 year old can't marry a 20 year old? Absolutely not. It just means that a 35 year old is not going to marry a high value 20 year old. And to clarify, high value in this context could be defined as a girl who is attractive, intelligent, not sexually promiscuous, emotionally stable, comes from a good family environment and who is interested in starting a family in her 20s. There are not a ton of those girls to go around, and the guys who are fortunate enough to date one of them as a young man usually realize their good fortune (or are clued in on it by their older relatives) and marry her within a few years. If you think you're going to just live in some sort of monk mode until you're 30 and then effortlessly court and woo high value young women, you're delusional.

If you want a good wife to start a family with, your best bet is to meet her when you're both as young as possible. There are really no exceptions to this rule. Do not think that you need to spend a decade "working on your career" or otherwise perfecting yourself as much as possible in order to find a good woman. A good woman is not going to somehow distract you from your professional ambitions. If anything, having a good woman in one's life universally makes men better in that regard. You're more disciplined, more responsible, harder working. The much bigger danger to most young men these days is wasting your twenties chasing meaningless sex and playing video games. And then you wake up at 30 and realize it's time to settle down and you're left with the dregs and rejects of the dating pool. The leftover women, who are leftover for a reason. The prime women were already scooped up in their high school and college years, and the next-best were engaged by their mid-20s. "But scorpion," you say, "It's fine. I know that. I'm just going to marry one of those younger girls, not one of the used up, damaged ones who spent the last decade getting pumped and dumped." Well good luck. You're gonna need it. Because it doesn't happen very often. The best you're likely to do is settling for a girl without kids who recently came out of a long relationship/marriage. And that's a whole other kind of baggage to deal with.

In the end the matter is simple. Your odds of finding a good, high-value wife are much higher among 20 year olds than 30 year olds. And the reality is that it is much easier to date a 20 year old girl as a 20-22 year old man than it is as a 30-40 year old man. The social and logistical advantages of being younger simply far outweigh the financial and experiential advantages of age in this case. If you want to start a family, find a good woman and find her early.

You made some good points. A couple of things though.

What you said about woman not liking older men highly depends on what region of the world you are in (or in big countries what part of the country you are in). Play to your strengths.

Also, even the "high value" girls who you mentioned who want family's usually want 2 kids. Sometimes 3. And rarely more than 3. And because most girls are going to only want 2 kids anyways, you don't need to meet them young. Yes they'll have more baggage when they get into their mid to late twenties, but it's not always the end of the world.

Your post seemed to be focused on girls in their early 20's. I agree that early 20's it's going to be really hard if you're an older guy to get a long term commitment from them. But mid 20's - late 20's women shouldn't be much of a problem for guys in their 30's in The West. They might not be "high value" or "the top of the crop", but that's alright because a lot of men were never at the top of the chain when they were younger anyways. People need to set their expectations to a reasonable standard and that includes men too.

But I agree with you 100%, that if you find a good girl when you're young then there's no reason not to settle down with her if that's what you want to do.

I guess my advice would be that there's no single right way of doing things. If you can settle down at an early age great, if you can settle down at an older age that's alright too. There's pros and cons to each. If men find themselves without a family in middle age, don't get discouraged you can still find somebody and many men do.
 
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Blade Runner

Pelican
Also, even the "high value" girls who you mentioned who want family's usually want 2 kids. Sometimes 3. And rarely more than 3. And because most girls are going to only want 2 kids anyways, you don't need to meet them young. Yes they'll have more baggage when they get into their mid to late twenties, but it's not always the end of the world.
Very good point, practical and sound.

Also, after all I have seen, it's pointless if you don't have at least 2 kids and probably 3 - if you are looking purely at legacy and genetics. Not only will you spoil it if you have only 1, the point in having multiple is that on pure chance alone you can have a kid who is constitutionally or genetically garbage, just the luck of the draw sometimes. Yeah, you'll love him, but don't do it.
 

AntoniusofEfa

Kingfisher
I suggest the "Book of Numbers" by Aaron Clarey. In his book, he proves mathematically that the chances of finding a suitable woman for the purpose of marriage and reproduction is basically smaller than the typical statistical error.

I've come across a bunch of self improvement gurus who urge you to stay single, at least in your early twenties, and then only settle down after 30 or even later twenties.

Assuming you stay out of fornication, is this recommendable? I feel it will be harder to meet and court younger women as you get older.

OP assumes that most guys in their 20s have a chance with anyone, and actually can settle down. If you are rich by birth, tall, handsome and ripped, then go for it. You will not have a better environment later on to find and select a woman. However, if you are not all these things, then you need to work on yourself and your profession/career/hustle, and prepare for a possibility, that there is just no one out there for you.

Speaking for myself here, the women that will settle down with me as of now (aged 29), is not physically attractive to me. I still don't make any real money, and I am probably a decade away from this goal. I came to peace with not finding a woman for an LTR involving kids. Once I will have my finances handled, the selection of women is going to be even worse. Furthermore, it will be a stupid move to risk my peace and tranquillity for a used up train wrack, looking to finally "settle down".

I have only a few friends, most of them are older ex-coworkers. All of them agreed that having kids for them was much easier in terms of affordability, and the quality of women available to them. Since the year 2000, in my area of Germany, houses have increased in price a few times, while wages stagnated at best. Older Engineers get 110k EUR at least, while the new ones (Masters degree in Electrical Eng. Is a must) have to settle with 45k EUR. This is at one of the best employers in the country in its particular branch. Many young couples are a few months away from being broke.

There is nothing wrong in just choosing the rational choice of working on oneself and achieving greatness (be it in whatever field). Having to settle down with a woman just for having kids (while not being attracted to her) is a much worse fate. I would not wish it upon my enemies.
 

N°6

Ostrich
Do most men (the proverbial bottom 80%) need to be helped to remain unmarried until their 30s?

when one considers tertiary education, debt, high rent city living and the foreign travel bug, women of traditional marriage ages have largely withdrawn from the marriage market until c.30. This pushes men’s first marriage age into the early 30s.

women‘s collective bargaining power shapes the SMP - not gurus.
 

tothepoint

Woodpecker
Your post seemed to be focused on girls in their early 20's. I agree that early 20's it's going to be really hard if you're an older guy to get a long term commitment from them. But mid 20's - late 20's women shouldn't be much of a problem for guys in their 30's in The West. They might not be "high value" or "the top of the crop", but that's alright because a lot of men were never at the top of the chain when they were younger anyways. People need to set their expectations to a reasonable standard and that includes men too.

The issue here is that while these women will not be high value, they will certainly not subscribe to any objective standards. Their sense of entitlement will be through the roof.
A woman's peak SMV is between 18-24, not only that's the age range when they are most desired (by men of all ages) but also when they are the most fertile. That's why a woman's career doesn't mean shit for most guys. Nobody has fetishes with the 40 year old doctor, everyone prefers the 20 year old nurse. The problem is that Western women have not received the memo so the older they get, the more delusional they become. The younger ones are actually easier and more pleasant to talk to.

The advice from the supposed gurus is to wait until your 30s because that's when most men reach their peak SMV so that means they should be looking for women at the same SMV or higher not 30 year old cat ladies. At least I hope that's not what they are peddling. You'll have plenty of time to chase 30 year olds in your 40s and 50s assuming you don't settle down before then.
When I was a teenager PUA advice was taking off, guys were trying to teach game not tell you how to live, nowadays this has been replaced with this life advice nonsense.
 
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westernman

Sparrow
Completely toxic sterile advice.

I am 24 now. When I was 18-21 I found it much easier to meet pure decent women compared to now. Too easy in fact. I let decent women go for the pursuit of more. Looking back now, many of these same women I used are happily married now. If this is at 24, I can't imagine how much harder it will be at 30.

Terrible advice. Find a good girl as young as possible and wife her.
 
Self-help gurus such as Gary Vaynerchuk who constantly tell people to spend their twenties toiling away at their business or company or whatever and only settling down afterwards are nothing but shills looking for a quick buck by spouting the type of nonsense that people want to hear. And you know that these self-help gurus are charlatans just by the fact they refer to themselves as "self-help gurus". I know that Gary Vaynerchuk in particular has said on several occasions that it's best to remain single in your twenties to focus on accomplishing your dreams. This is damaging because most people do not achieve their dreams and I think it is much better to find a wife in your twenties while the getting is good.
 

Uprising

Woodpecker
The advice from the supposed gurus is to wait until your 30s because that's when most men reach their peak SMV so that means they should be looking for women at the same SMV or higher not 30 year old cat ladies. At least I hope that's not what they are peddling. You'll have plenty of time to chase 30 year olds in your 40s and 50s assuming you don't settle down before then.

Who is telling anybody to look for cat ladies? I certainly never said that in my post and nor have I ever seen that advice given.

The issue here is that while these women will not be high value, they will certainly not subscribe to any objective standards. Their sense of entitlement will be through the roof.

I believe talking in absolutes does no good. There are plenty of women in their mid to late 20's whose sense of entitlement is not through the roof. Yes there are plenty of women who do have a large sense of entitlement but also plenty who don't.

Didn't someone one this forum make a post about getting married within the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the woman the RVF member married was in her mid-20's (I could be remembering wrong though).

Look at Cernovich. He's what in his mid 40's or so? And his (beautiful) wife is in her early 30's right now, and that's after having 2 kids with Mike? Meaning they met when she was in her mid to late 20's and him in his late 30's/early 40's? How much of a difference in the happiness of Mike's life would it have made if he had met Shauna several years earlier when she was in her early 20's instead of her mid 20's, when she was at her "peak"? Yeah, she was probably a little bit hotter, but in the grand scheme of things does it really matter? After 2 kids and in her early 30's now she still looks great. Good for Mike and good for Shauna.

shauna%20(FILEminimizer).JPG


If you can settle down with a girl when your young, do so if that's what you want to do. But please do not beat yourself up if you find yourself in your 30's or even 40's if you haven't settled down yet but would like to. We are never going to live our lives through a perfect script and never make mistakes.

And just because you might "peak" in your 30's that does not necessarily mean you'll still be able to lock down a woman in her early 20's (although it's certainly possible this forum used to have many posters who had no problems doing so). Men should be realistic about that. That said, that doesn't mean that getting into a long term relationship or getting married to a woman in her mid to late 20's is degrading yourself to "settling for cat lady" status either, because it's far from it. Cernovich and his wife Shauna are just one example but I've seen plenty examples of it in the real world from men who have far less fame or money than what Cernovich has (not that Cernovich is famous but he's more known than the average person).

Sometimes I think the manosphere has a tendency to get a little too autistic with the "Peak SMV" type of stuff. Just don't get black pilled is all I'm saying.
 

SlickyBoy

Hummingbird
If you think you're going to just live in some sort of monk mode until you're 30 and then effortlessly court and woo high value young women, you're delusional.

If you want a good wife to start a family with, your best bet is to meet her when you're both as young as possible. There are really no exceptions to this rule in the west.
Fixed it for you. Plenty of much older guys have been doing this for decades in places around the world where women still value their fertility. It isn't for everyone, but there are definitely possibilities.
 

Aizen

Kingfisher
All I know is that if I married a good girl when I was 18 - 21, I would have likely been divorce raped father down the line. Yes, I was pulling good girls with relative ease back then, but I didn't know enough about life or game to lead her as a man. It was just starry-eyed romance made convenient by mutual schooling. The chances of her sticking by my side while I spent years discovering my masculinity are slim to none. We're supposed to have it "figured out", remember? Getting divorce raped in my 20s would have cratered my life. Dodged those bullets like the Matrix.

Unless you were a Chad in your teen years and married your "high school sweetheart", I don't think it's wise to pull the trigger on marriage so early. Most men these days are not inheriting wisdom or red pills from their parents, so they have to spend extra time in the real world figuring it out for themselves. This coupled with the need to hone a marketable skill and set yourself up financially makes the 20s a prime time to solely self-develop.

Most romantic challenges that men are experiencing revolve around poor quality women in Western cities. This can largely be solved by moving to greener female pastures. Which is where the financial base and sharp skills come in. Age is less of a barrier in healthier societies.
 
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