Sh*t Is Hitting The Fan In America

[Hencredible Casanova]

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

 

[Roosh]

America sure got whiter than I remembered it!

I agree with what Basil said. The elites love immigration because it keeps wages low.

In A People's History Of The United States, Zinn shows how the elites let various groups fight each other to keep them distracted from the raping of wealth that goes from the poor to the rich.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-Present/dp/0060838655

 

[ElJefe]

America sure got whiter than I remembered it!

I agree with what Basil said. The elites love immigration because it keeps wages low.

In A People's History Of The United States, Zinn shows how the elites let various groups fight each other to keep them distracted from the raping of wealth that goes from the poor to the rich.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-Present/dp/0060838655

Read the negativ reviews for that book. All books get negative reviews, but Zinn's book as a HUGE number of negative reviews. Given that people often like to read what they already agree with, that's telling.

 

[ElJefe]

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

True.

So the question is: should it be OK to be on the dole, or should you get rid of government provided welfare and let the single mom from Detroit work in the hot, sweltering Southern sun at USD 8 an hour all summer?

There is no question in my mind:

For the individual, better to be on the dole. For society: let her work the fields.

 

[Basil Ransom]

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

I wasn't bashing Cubans as a whole, just saying Cuban mental patients specifically are probably a bad idea. Maybe we can make an exception for the cocaine huffing gun-toting ones on occasion to prop up Hollywood though.

I agree that Americans created that demand, once the laws were changed to enable it.

But there are Americans lining up to take unskilled jobs. Employers are fond of saying that they can't find anyone. To the extent that it's true, it's because they aren't willing to raise wages high enough. It's like me complaining I can't find a personal umbrella valet (because I'm only offering a $1 an hour). And sometimes it isn't true -employers will just simply lie via groups like the Chamber of Commerce, so that immigration brings wages down.

As for the cost of goods soaring without these immigrants - I'm not so sure. The labor cost of the lots of the stuff that you buy is actually fairly low, thanks to highly mechanized industries. Even for retail - I did a stint in retail, in a liquor store, and I calculated that our labor costs were about 10% of revenue. So increasing prices by 5% would be enough to increase compensation by 50%, if demand stayed the same. Demand would probably decline a little, but other stores would be facing the same pressures. There's also a lot of costs of unskilled immigration that you don't see - such as education spending, at $10k per kid per year.

If (the consumer) spends $1 on a pint of strawberries, the farmer's getting 18 cents. He gives about one-third of that to farmworkers, so they make 6 cents." So even if the labor cost were to double, that would still only be a 6 cent increase per pint.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/05/21/MNGFQIVN991.DTL&type=printable

Sounds like the real crime in this case is how less than 20% of the revenue is going to the farmer and his workers. I wonder where the other 82% goes.

 

[Hencredible Casanova]

America sure got whiter than I remembered it!

I agree with what Basil said. The elites love immigration because it keeps wages low.

In A People's History Of The United States, Zinn shows how the elites let various groups fight each other to keep them distracted from the raping of wealth that goes from the poor to the rich.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-Present/dp/0060838655

Read the negativ reviews for that book. All books get negative reviews, but Zinn's book as a HUGE number of negative reviews. Given that people often like to read what they already agree with, that's telling.

I went to an insanely liberal high school where in IB History, Zinn's book was our actual textbook LOL. Talk about indoctrination. Our teacher was this extreme socialist guy from Los Angeles. I still enjoyed it, but man, I realize how left field that education was.

That being said, it's still better than the alternative view of the US behaving like "the last samurai" in every historical situation. Balance would be the ideal.

 

[Hencredible Casanova]

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

I wasn't bashing Cubans as a whole, just saying Cuban mental patients specifically are probably a bad idea. Maybe we can make an exception for the cocaine huffing gun-toting ones on occasion to prop up Hollywood though.

I agree that Americans created that demand, once the laws were changed to enable it.

But there are Americans lining up to take unskilled jobs. Employers are fond of saying that they can't find anyone. To the extent that it's true, it's because they aren't willing to raise wages high enough. It's like me complaining I can't find a personal umbrella valet (because I'm only offering a $1 an hour). And sometimes it isn't true -employers will just simply lie via groups like the Chamber of Commerce, so that immigration brings wages down.

As for the cost of goods soaring without these immigrants - I'm not so sure. The labor cost of the lots of the stuff that you buy is actually fairly low, thanks to highly mechanized industries. Even for retail - I did a stint in retail, in a liquor store, and I calculated that our labor costs were about 10% of revenue. So increasing prices by 5% would be enough to increase compensation by 50%, if demand stayed the same. Demand would probably decline a little, but other stores would be facing the same pressures. There's also a lot of costs of unskilled immigration that you don't see - such as education spending, at $10k per kid per year.

If (the consumer) spends $1 on a pint of strawberries, the farmer's getting 18 cents. He gives about one-third of that to farmworkers, so they make 6 cents." So even if the labor cost were to double, that would still only be a 6 cent increase per pint.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/05/21/MNGFQIVN991.DTL&type=printable

Sounds like the real crime in this case is how less than 20% of the revenue is going to the farmer and his workers. I wonder where the other 82% goes.

Yeah. I know you're not bashing Cubans. I agree with what you're saying.

That Mariel Boatlift was Castro's way of saying F U to the US. He intentionally released all those social misfits onto the shores of Florida.


Immigration is definitely a complex and nuanced issue. Our country would be much better off if the public dialogue was as civil and open-minded as the one being discussed on this fourm.

 

[BortimusPrime]

There's actually an interesting and controversial new book about these differences within the US white population over the last 50 years called "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray. He's a libertarian who co-authored that controversial book called "The Bell Curve." Anyway, his latest book as been getting a lot of press coverage and he also appeared on Charlie Rose to discuss it.

This book smells like a big steaming load of Ayn Rand.

 

[speakeasy]

This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

+1

Exactly. That's what pisses me off about people that conflate the immigration debate. And when they lump illegal immigration and legal immigration together I can feel my blood boil. There's a helluva lotta difference between some engineer from Korea coming here and an illegal alien from MS-13 coming here.

 

[speakeasy]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

 

[Andy_B]

I don't think shit's going to hit the fan because shit has always appeareared like it's going to "hit the fan" over social issues in America and it never has. Elites like to make things look scarier than they really are. The truth is, what's really going to happen is that advertisements like the one shown ITT are going to keep some people scared, hopeless and defeated enough to keep themselves out of the game, thereby minimizing the amount of competition for wealth elites have to face. And that's all ads like the one above are really intended to do, at the end of the day.

 

[thegmanifesto]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

 

[speakeasy]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Well, I clean up after myself, wash my own car and dishes and if I lived in a house I'd mow my own lawn.

Remember, the supposed savings people are getting by hiring illegals on the cheap is offset when they go to the county hospital when they get sick or injured or have kids which will cost the school district $10k a year and entitles the family to section 8 subsidized by tax payers. And that's assuming the kid doesn't grow up to be a gangbanger. In L.A. MS-13 and 18th street gangs(the two most notorious) are almost entirely comprised of illegal aliens.

 

[thegmanifesto]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Well, I clean up after myself, wash my own car and dishes and if I lived in a house I'd mow my own lawn.

Remember, the supposed savings people are getting by hiring illegals on the cheap is offset when they go to the county hospital when they get sick or injured or have kids which will cost the school district $10k a year and entitles the family to section 8 subsidized by tax payers. And that's assuming the kid doesn't grow up to be a gangbanger. In L.A. MS-13 and 18th street gangs(the two most notorious) are almost entirely comprised of illegal aliens.

So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

America creates the demand for illegals.

It is the same as blaming Mexico for our drug problems.

This is just the law of supply and demand.

 

[worldwidetraveler]

So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

America creates the demand for illegals.

It is the same as blaming Mexico for our drug problems.

This is just the law of supply and demand.

Exactly...

Most of the people complaining about losing jobs, illegal immigration are the biggest Walmart shoppers.

 

[speakeasy]

So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Cheaper to who? Not to taxpayers. And if most goods we buy come from Asia anyway, the overall difference in savings is negligible at the consumer level.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

So how did Americans afford burgers and have clean toilets prior to the massive wave of illegal immigration in the 80s? We also somehow still managed to construct buildings and grow vegetables and process meat in slaughterhouses for hundreds of years before illegal immigrants were doing it. This belief that we have an inherent NEED to insource illegal labor is a myth. I've done dirty jobs out in the hot sun before. In college I was working as a landscaper. It sucked but it was flexible with my class schedule and paid, so I took it. I'd often be out there when it was over a 100 degrees. You'd be surprised how many Americans will work such jobs if they need the money.

 

[Hencredible Casanova]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Well, I clean up after myself, wash my own car and dishes and if I lived in a house I'd mow my own lawn.

Remember, the supposed savings people are getting by hiring illegals on the cheap is offset when they go to the county hospital when they get sick or injured or have kids which will cost the school district $10k a year and entitles the family to section 8 subsidized by tax payers. And that's assuming the kid doesn't grow up to be a gangbanger. In L.A. MS-13 and 18th street gangs(the two most notorious) are almost entirely comprised of illegal aliens.

So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

America creates the demand for illegals.

It is the same as blaming Mexico for our drug problems.

This is just the law of supply and demand.

I see where you're coming from Speakeasy. Most of the benefits from illegal immigration are going to elites and their bottom line. There are benefits to immigration but the problem is we're not seeing the best of those benefits because the elites create the demand and horde most of the benefits.

Guys like Mitt Romney claim to be against illegal immigrants but even he had illegals tending to his home when he was Gov. of Massachusetts. Guys like him prefer to keep it that way.


Did you see Santorum's video where he called Obama a snob for wanting every kid in America to go to college? Quite funny coming from a guy with three degrees. This kind of pandering is ridiculous.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25/rick-santorum-obama-snob-college_n_1301854.html

 

[Samseau]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

So in other words, illegal immigration is good for the 1%.

 

[Hencredible Casanova]

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/alabama_rep_micky_hammon_immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

So in other words, illegal immigration is good for the 1%.

I think it's good for everyone. It encourages non-immigrants (in theory) to become more ambitious and more competitive. I'm sorry, but if you're complaining about jobs that "unskilled immigrants" are taking, then you should probably thrown in the towel and get a "born to lose" tat on your forehead.

Seriously....

You should see those jobs as something you don't want and step your game up and hustle for better opportunities.

 

[Samseau]

You should see those jobs as something you don't want and step your game up and hustle for better opportunities.

Almost no one voluntarily takes low-level jobs. It's done out of necessity.


Make the poor fight each other to survive. Very entertaining, watching the peons fight.