what if you both agree to consent for your entire life before marriage?
Should "marital rape" be a thing?
- Thread starter traelo
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I think this is starting to get into a self licking ice creamcone discussion....
Your initial question was:
The obvious answer is that is not an acceptable thing.
That does not mean you have the right to commit an act of violence through the form of forcing yourself on your wife when she does not want to.
This hypothetical is the sort of thing that you dont see in a healthy marriage.
Part of marriage is to celebrate your union through Christ and blessing you to have many children. It should mean that you're both wanting to have lots of sex ect... that's one of the blessings of marriage. It's not like it should take any coercion or physical pressure. If it does, you're doing something wrong or there may be a legitimate reason for hesitancy.
If there isnt and your old lady isnt in the mood and that is it, you should know how to get her there. If you don't you might need to figure out what you're doing wrong.
In my first marriage, which was not really grounded in Christ, I can say the only one or two times I ever went with out sex was when I was being a very poor husband and unloving and we were fighting, largely because of actions I had taken or failed to take.
I'm sure you also agree not to beat your wife before mairriage... doesnt mean its not still violence if you hit your wife. She might give cause to make you angry because you either chose wrong or dont know how to be a good leader in your own house. Doesnt mean you can just smack her for making you angry.
Making blanket black and white statements are sort of an argument from absolutism that don't really bear out in a Christ driven marriage.
Ok. You're right
@DanielH please close the thread, or another mod if possible. This law isnt gonna change anytime soon (probably never in america anyway) so its best to not discuss hypotheticals anyway. I do still think you are obliged to give your spouse sex but i would say taking them by force is not ideal. Also if its against the law its a sin anyway so its not like anyone is allowed by god to do this.
God Bless.
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About the much controversial Scripture about the spouses *mutual* authorities over *one another's* bodies; shouldn't it be obvious that if you both have authority over one another's body; (which is what that Scripture says, not that only one has the authority; but that both do); doesn't it automatically follow that if the wife asks your body, over which she has authority, to stop, your duty is to stop?
Yes, the whole idea is to kill the idea of self will. In Orthodoxy, we're supposed to abstain from marital relations during fasting periods, but if one cannot bear that, then generally the rule of thumb is that you don't abstain lest the other spouse fall into temptation. Relevant to your example, because the man should not force himself on his wife because that's not what she wants, but the wife should also should submit to her husband's will to have marital relations. Both spouses should put their own will's last. It might sound confusing unless you read the lives of the [Orthodox] saints, where there are examples of exactly this, where a husband or wife desires to remain celibate in marriage, but the other one does not, so the one wishing to be celibate has marital relations for the sake of the marriage.
At the same time there's good and bad reasons to wish to abstain or remain celibate. If you marry, the marriage ceremony explicitly talks about raising children for the continuation of your race.
Yes, I am in substantial agreement with all of this; I don't even think it's that confusing; yes, both should yield, but the passage is not about making the other yield, but about each one learning how to yield. So, as a husband I don't think you should be looking for justifications to force yourself upon your wife, which are quite opposite to the teaching of the passage.
Nope
The whole idea is pushed to cuck men. If you are a man and your wife is refusing to have sex with you then you automatically will become a cuck (if you are not one already)
The women loses respect for the man & the next Alpha male guy that comes across her path will be breeding her.
I find it shocking that this even has to be explained on an orthodox forum like this one.
The whole idea is pushed to cuck men. If you are a man and your wife is refusing to have sex with you then you automatically will become a cuck (if you are not one already)
The women loses respect for the man & the next Alpha male guy that comes across her path will be breeding her.
I find it shocking that this even has to be explained on an orthodox forum like this one.
Someone should just make a generic thread about "women's options" and how they are directly related to chaos for a society. The question, of course, is what level of optionality (for all people, but specifically for women) is healthy.
Has there been situations where one spouse refuses to yield? What are the options then?
Well logically the only 2 options are force (violence) or abstinence.
True. But then again. I think that is sexual immorality on its own. That means that the spouse after they have the children they want can deny sex for perpetuity and the other must deal with it.
Which in turn makes adultery more attractive.
Yes, we are all in agreement... There should be no denial. Sex isn't in existence purely for procreation purposes... Atleast that's not my understanding from The Church.
I think those of the Orthodox jewry. At least have this practice. If all other attempts of getting the wife to stop denying him sex has failed. She was to take her property, leave the home and the marriage was over.
That is as a last resort. Maybe I am wrong about this but that does look like grounds for divorce if there is no other way.
I can't speak for what Jews do. I think they have pretty loose rules , whatever to justify the current mood.
This sort of denial doesn't happen in a healthy marriage... Frankly the concept of ones wife not being interested is really quite foreign to me ...
It's common enough that there is a dead bedrooms subreddit on reddit.
I would not use reddit as my barometer for happy marriage life... just saying....
There's also redditors soyjacking about muh Ukraine and muh Covid shots on there....
I would not use reddit as my barometer for happy marriage life... just saying....
There's also redditors soyjacking about muh Ukraine and muh Covid shots on there....
Heh
too soy for their wives that they get to marry.No one is entitled to sex from someone. Married or not.
That women should get the police involved if the husband forces himself on her, abuse or physically restraining, restricting her movements, won't allow her to leave, preventing her from leaving, etc ...
Also no one should pressure or coax someone into having sex.
Rape is rape.
All of the above applies for men too.
Never begin or stay in sexually incompatible relationships.
If a person has a high sex drive and their partner doesn't, the relationship should end.
Rape has to be some kind of violent coercion. Even if the wife doesn't want sex yet gives in, that isn't rape. If the Husband is beating her into submission I think that definitely qualifies as rape, even if they are married.
A much more difficult, and interesting question, however, is as follows:
Is a wife who refuses sex committing adultery? Is not the oath of marriage to give each other's body's to one another? Thus, if someone breaks that oath, have they not adulterated the oath of marriage? Typically we think of cheating as adultery, but the word adulterate can mean much more than merely "sex with someone who is not your spouse."
This is the real question I would ask a cannon lawyer of the Church.
Likewise, if a man refuses to give his labor towards the efforts of the marriage, then the man is not giving his body to the marriage. If the husband is entitled to sex from his wife, then it follows the wife is completely entitled to labor from her husband. And if the man refuses to work, would this not also be grounds for divorce on the adulteration of the marriage contract?
The word "adultery" is the tricky word to define here.
A much more difficult, and interesting question, however, is as follows:
Is a wife who refuses sex committing adultery? Is not the oath of marriage to give each other's body's to one another? Thus, if someone breaks that oath, have they not adulterated the oath of marriage? Typically we think of cheating as adultery, but the word adulterate can mean much more than merely "sex with someone who is not your spouse."
This is the real question I would ask a cannon lawyer of the Church.
Likewise, if a man refuses to give his labor towards the efforts of the marriage, then the man is not giving his body to the marriage. If the husband is entitled to sex from his wife, then it follows the wife is completely entitled to labor from her husband. And if the man refuses to work, would this not also be grounds for divorce on the adulteration of the marriage contract?
The word "adultery" is the tricky word to define here.