Should young women go to college? If not, what should they (realistically) do?

[Elspeth]

As someone in their mid-twenties, I have learned that a college education must be used differently than they once were by older generations. While a STEM degree is highly employable, there's much more to college than just that piece of paper for the sake of being employed by someone. Modern college students have to creatively use their time in college to reap a return on their investment. This includes networking with both peers and faculty, community engagement, taking advantage of university resources (the allowance of borrowing expensive equipment for free, which can include anything from a professional camera, outdoor equipment, or lab equipment), and taking bacc core classes that give you a marketable skill to peddle that either contributes to your Plan A directly, indirectly, or equip you with another skill to fall back on if Plan A takes longer than one anticipated. If you begin your career after you graduate, then unfortunately it's too late. Developing one's career has to begin the moment you enroll in your first college courses (regardless if one is fresh out of high school or not), because half of one's later success is knowing somebody who knows somebody, not just the skill your degree says you have. This is how you get ahead of someone that might actually be "better" at what you do than you.

My husband (10 years my senior, but also Gen Y like me) is only a high school graduate. So is my dad (Gen X), and my mom (Gen X) didn't even graduate high school. Yet, all three are pulling in more than 6-7 figures today. Both my parents are established entrepreneurs (my mom waited to start her career until all my siblings and I were adults), while my husband and I are still budding ones. What I've learned from both my parents and my husband is that no matter what deck of cards you're playing with (in other words, whats skills or pieces of paper you have or don't have), it's how you use them that determines if you're successful or not -- just like the Parable of the Ten Talents. Big successes come with big risks, albeit calculated ones, but risk nonetheless. My parents and my husband took big risks in other things that cost a lot of money up front, mine just happened to be in a college education.

My reason for sharing all this is that I feel that a lot of young people like myself need to know how to navigate today's economy, yet many don't have access to this kind of information because it's just so new. Typically those in advising positions (whether in the home or in the public education system) are older individuals, who only remember how things "used" to be. Being a modern college student -- being a modern, American college student -- is all about ingenuity, not being a worker bee. As long as one has the mindset of the latter, they will fail in whatever they do, college education or not (and I know plenty of whom I went to school with).

 

[dragonfire00]

I don't think women (or men for that matter) should go into debt for college, and I don't think most women should be going for higher than a Bachelors. If one is smart enough to go the distance without going into debt and hasn't found a husband yet I'd say it wouldn't be a problem but I do think college is a place where many people meet their spouse, and unfortunately in this day and age degrees are becoming more necessary in USEFUL subjects. If the person doesn't have the grades or wherewithal to go (has to take on unmanageable debt) a woman learning a trade, starting a business, or working a job would be best with the goal being to meet someone eventually and have skills that will help with the household. Nanny jobs actually pay better than some with degrees (all those sociology and communication majors working in call centers) and helps with experience.

My plan if my kids excel in school is to have them complete the first two years/community college BS classes at home sometime between 14-18 so I can manage the level of brainwashing that will occur and then have them go for the last two-three years IF they want to and won't go into debt for it. Potentially after a gap year of working/volunteering. I honestly think these next years are going to be interesting to see what happens to universities as people are realizing it's largely a scam and if loan forgiveness happens or a currency collapse/terrible economy there will be only extremely bright, "diversity", and wealthy people attending.

 

[holgerdanske]

Let me dumb it down for you guys again: A highly intelligent woman should do her utmost to produce as much offspring as possible and to oversee their education and development into productive members of society. That is a much more important and effective use of her generic heritage than to waste away her prime fertile years in college.

 

[messaggera]

A highly intelligent woman should do her utmost to produce as much offspring as possible and to oversee their education and development into productive members of society. That is a much more important and effective use of her generic heritage than to waste away her prime fertile years in college.

I would have to agree with that statement as it pertains to this COVID era we are experiencing. As a mother (and retired university administrator) I would not be sending my child to a university during this time. There are too many totalitarian mandates, and deep seeded social engineering that are occuring within the university system. And Christianity is often not welcomed.

However, there can be controlled opportunities within the community college system. With proper planning, on the part of the family, a child can receive an associate degree prior to graduating high school. And most general courses will be offered online with a culmination: assistantship or apprenticeship. A trade is more appealing than a degree in some circumstances.

It sounds like @dragonfire00 has discovered this strategy:

My plan if my kids excel in school is to have them complete the first two years/community college BS classes at home sometime between 14-18 s

Given today's generation higher education is a secondary high school for those who are pursuing liberal arts, social sciences, and humanities at universities. Someone mentioned a gap year to allow a child to mature into a young adult.

One of the most rewarding opportunities for a young Christian woman is to stay with her family until she is married, but this also means contributing to the household. If she decides to work this also allows her to save - opposed to attending the university and accumulating debt.

A Christian household tends to provide more blessings and opportunities than a university education experience for young 18-23 year old ladies.

 

[TexasJenn]

One of the most rewarding opportunities for a young Christian woman is to stay with her family until she is married, but this also means contributing to the household. If she decides to work this also allows her to save - opposed to attending the university and accumulating debt.

In a stable, loving, Christian family, I can see how this would be ideal. Personally, I didn't come from that kind of household. I became independent out of necessity.

If this is a family's plan, to discourage higher education and set daughters up to be dependent on others for survival (parents, extended family, and/or husband), I think they have the responsibility to ensure those women are taken care of in any scenario. What if her husband turns out to be an adulterer, or he unexpectedly dies at a young age? That dependent woman is going to need a village supporting and providing for her, probably for her entire life.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

In a stable, loving, Christian family, I can see how this would be ideal. Personally, I didn't come from that kind of household. I became independent out of necessity.

Yeah, I think this is a good point. I've heard people say things like "it's just as easy to love a rich man than a poor one" growing up. I've also seen homeschooler girls who end up in a weird funk for most of their 20s because their parents are so focused on marrying them "off" and don't do much of anything.

Feminism is stupid and has always overlapped with affluent Marxists, but a lot of guys here seem to fall for gold diggers/opportunists who try to play up the "I just want a nice guy who lets me stay home" angle. If you don't have a family, there's no reason not to work. College seems to represent a ritualistic rite-of-passage, same with HS.

 

[TexasJenn]

Yeah, I think this is a good point. I've heard people say things like "it's just as easy to love a rich man than a poor one" growing up. I've also seen homeschooler girls who end up in a weird funk for most of their 20s because their parents are so focused on marrying them "off" and don't do much of anything.

Feminism is stupid and has always overlapped with affluent Marxists, but a lot of guys here seem to fall for gold diggers/opportunists who try to play up the "I just want a nice guy who lets me stay home" angle. If you don't have a family, there's no reason not to work. College seems to represent a ritualistic rite-of-passage, same with HS.

Exactly. It's not a simple question.

Women encouraged to be dependent will naturally be encouraged to pick the most high-status, wealthy men for marriage.

But women who are able to provide for themselves have more freedom to choose husbands based on character and compatibility.

I feel like I'd rather someone choose me because of who I am and how we get along, rather than on my earning potential. It seems more stable and meaningful.

 

[kel]

Essentially no one should go to college - maybe 1% of the people who do now. I went to college for a relatively legit STEM degree (as opposed to polisci type nonsense) but realistically I didn't need to. There does need to be something else, though, and the word "realistically" in the thread title is important - too many would be trad guys like to imagine how things should be in their fantasy of 1550s-but-with-internet and no concrete idea about how one would get from here to there if that were even possible.

 

[TexasJenn]

There does need to be something else, though, and the word "realistically" in the thread title is important - too many would be trad guys like to imagine how things should be in their fantasy of 1550s-but-with-internet and no concrete idea about how one would get from here to there if that were even possible.

Amen! It's a chicken and egg situation. If women are supported and nurtured to surrender to dependency on the family/marriage/village, shown that it's a good way to go, more will do it. That responsibility falls to parents of daughters, and would-be husbands of daughters.

 

[Elspeth]

Exactly. It's not a simple question.

Women encouraged to be dependent will naturally be encouraged to pick the most high-status, wealthy men for marriage.

But women who are able to provide for themselves have more freedom to choose husbands based on character and compatibility.

I feel like I'd rather someone choose me because of who I am and how we get along, rather than on my earning potential. It seems more stable and meaningful.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, my independence (or at least, my attempts to in comparison to him at the time) was one of the things that my husband said initially attracted him to me, because I was more focused on the character and compatibility of the man I was dating rather than how much he had. Turns out that strategy paid off for both of us, because I knew that according to his character, he was the kind of man that would eventually become successful because of his strong work ethic, selflessness/charity, and patience (qualities that I learned were indicators of future success from my parents). Well, it just so happened that he already was, but he didn't reveal it to me upon initial meeting -- it was after I demonstrated that I was only interested in him for him (because I felt confident in my own work ethic to provide for myself) did he reveal to me how financially savvy he was.

Because I don't expect others to take care of me, I'm grateful for my husband's provision, right down to the littlest of things. This in turn makes it more enjoyable for my husband to do so because he knows it means the world to me. Granted, I am ten years behind him so I have some catching up to do in establishing my career, but our relationship is a unique blend of the old and the new ("old" in terms of who wears the pants, "new" because our roles and our jobs are not mutually exclusive to the point of being unproductive). I'm still the homemaker, but my career blends with it nicely. My husband makes most of our income right now, but there will be a time when he retires first before I do, so then I'll be the only one still working. Regardless of who brings in the most bacon, he will always be the one at the helm who has the last say as the captain of our finances.

 

[Ah_Tibor]

Essentially no one should go to college - maybe 1% of the people who do now. I went to college for a relatively legit STEM degree (as opposed to polisci type nonsense) but realistically I didn't need to. There does need to be something else, though, and the word "realistically" in the thread title is important - too many would be trad guys like to imagine how things should be in their fantasy of 1550s-but-with-internet and no concrete idea about how one would get from here to there if that were even possible.

Everyone always has something to deal with, though. I'm reading through Taras Shevchenko poems right now and 1800s Ukie elites didn't like the masses, either, and that included mid-level priests or cantors who liked to beat their serf underlings while puffing themselves up. It's not hard to see at all why most churches act the way they do nowadays.

Maybe a minority of a minority make it out of the slave mindset, and it's a highly personal connection to God. I don't know. Maybe it's copium on my part.

 

[Max Roscoe]

Women encouraged to be dependent will naturally be encouraged to pick the most high-status, wealthy men for marriage.

This is a deeply flawed goal.
The corollary for a man is saying a man should marry the most beautiful woman he can attract.

Do you not see the glaring problem with this?

I don't want to marry a supermodel for a variety of reasons, both physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.

Likewise chasing after the man with the most wealth is a recipe for disaster. I can't think of any man I know who earns more than I do that I would want a daughter to marry. A man obsessed with money is far less likely to have a warm loving heart, as he will be a cold, calculating businessman who is savvy at taking advantage of opportunities and making shekels out of them. He will also be very busy with his moneymaking operations and have little time to develop emotionally with his wife and spend quality time with her. Finally, he will be very materialistic and often highly critical.

It's far more important to select a man on his morality and skills (ie a smart man is a good bet, a driven, persistent man is good. A loyal man, etc.) Sure you can screen him for frugality and think about what type of lifestyle his career is going to offer you, but I've seen plenty of extremely happy poor people (in foreign countries, not America) and know plenty of miserable rich ones.

As for the college question, very few need to attend college. It should be the realm of the Philosopher Kings, or the Renaissance men like Thomas Jefferson in more modern times. I did well with college, because it was affordable for me and my family didn't take on any debt. And it taught me some good liberal arts skills like a study in the classics, philosophy, music theory, history, and social skills. But those are basically just hobbies and pursuits of curiosity, and none of those things require a college atmosphere to attain. And I can't imagine attending college which costs more than $10,000 a year.

Of course, we have a broken society today, so there are no easy answers. There is no simple answer to "What should a woman do" any more than there is for "Where can a man find a chaste, loyal wife?" The answer used to be simple: A single man could attend the local dance this weekend, and you'll find a room full of candidates. And a single woman would have a variety of social clubs and groups like my grandmother attended (sewing club, book club, dinner club, etc.) that would give her options on what to do if she wasn't ready for a husband yet (or guidance if she was).

The best thing about college is it is a great opportunity to meet other young and single people, but with today's woke culture I would be very wary of that. If you listen to people talk about college today, it's all about preparing you for a vocation. If you want a life of servitude / working, then attend college. Otherwise, you have no place there, man or woman.

Oh and HUGE agree and amplify of @DanielH post on page 1.

 

[TexasJenn]

Likewise chasing after the man with the most wealth is a recipe for disaster.

Yet this seems to be what happens in old world cultures where daughters are encouraged to be dependent. No family is looking for a low-earning good guy to marry their daughter. They want to make sure she's taken care of. Even the Orthodox Father Josiah Trenham says in one of his talks that his first question to any man approaching about his daughter would be: What are your career plans? How do you plan to take care of my daughter? I'm sure he considers many other factors, but this always seems to be the foundational one.

Of course, we have a broken society today, so there are no easy answers. There is no simple answer to "What should a woman do" any more than there is for "Where can a man find a chaste, loyal wife?"

Exactly.

 

[DanielH]

If a woman is a high earner, it is very unlikely she will be able to go down a social class and, say, marry a blue collar worker who makes as much or slightly less than herself, even though he may be a good Christian and a great father. This is one of the reasons the birthrate is 1.6 children per woman in America. Most college grads by far are women, and even if they're not high earners, they find it hard to marry an "uneducated" man, so they'll hold out for a higher earner, and then maybe they'll have a kid or two in their early or mid 30s when they finally decide to settle for a man of a lesser caliber than if she decided to marry when her socio-sexual market value was higher, in between 19 and her early 20s. The vast majority of men don't have a problem marrying a woman who makes far less or nothing.

 

[Starlight]

Being honest here: I don’t know why I feel so conflicted about this… I mean, I know college is mostly a waste of time and money unless someone is going for a reason that is specific (like Elspeth wrote) and I literally dropped out of college to get married and start a family but I keep hearing the mantra of “waste of potential, waste of potential” in my mind from my own parents. They were not happy with me (especially my dad…) and that was really hard…

The funny thing is I *don’t* have this same feeling with my son… For him, I want him to do the best he can and support whatever career path he chooses as long as it’s something he can support a family with; whereas with my daughter, I feel like I’m withholding something from her if I don’t encourage her to go to college... It’s hard to explain and doesn’t really make a lot of sense lol…

I remember telling my dad toward the end of high school, when everyone was picking career paths and colleges, that I just want to be a SAHM and wife and he was *really* disappointed in me for some reason, even though what I wanted was exactly what my dad required from my mom (she was not allowed to work, volunteering was fine but not earning money). I got the whole spiel about “college experience” and “wasting my potential” (which was actually really hurtful because as a young mom I got plenty of awful looks and hurtful unwanted advice). So, I feel like I’m partly reliving those old feelings with my oldest daughter. And it’s really hard too because she is very, very, intelligent (and I don’t say that as a doting mother but she’s ranked in the upper 5% of our school district which has some 50k students) and wildly creative. We’ve talked a little bit about the college question and I know she loves children (she has an uncanny knack with babies ) and wants to be a mom and wife and I know she is going to have lots of pressure to go to college and have a career so I mostly want her to know and feel that I support her decision if chooses not to go to college and it’s a decision I think is important for her to make herself (or at least think she made for herself ).

I also think that young women (or men) shouldn’t be told they have an either/or decision to make regarding college. The “college tradition” doesn’t really exist like it used to decades ago and there are plenty of flexible, non-traditional ways to attain a college degree. (There always seems to be a bit of “panic” around people pushing college: “you have to do it now!”) I’ve told my daughters that there is plenty of time to go back to school and focus on a career or something after they’re done raising kids. I tried to make it clear that they only have a limited time to have children and that there’s plenty of time to go back to school. That’s kind of what I did. I went to college right out of high school for two years, then dropped out, eventually returning in my mid twenties between kids to finish and, I have to say, I really enjoyed my last two years in college when I was a bit older (mostly because I actually wanted to be there) and had a more formed view of the world and a stronger opinion. The local state school that I finished at had a fair amount of “non-traditional” students, i.e., not right out of high school, returning, part-time, and working, etc. and discussion was pretty well rounded.

Let me dumb it down for you guys again: A highly intelligent woman should do her utmost to produce as much offspring as possible and to oversee their education and development into productive members of society. That is a much more important and effective use of her generic heritage than to waste away her prime fertile years in college.

I don’t think anyone is debating this. The question is: if a woman doesn’t go to college… what should she do in the interim period between then and getting married?

What no one has really addressed so far, except a slim few, is if a young woman does not go to college and is not married… what should they do??? Minimum wage part-time jobs? Hang out at home? There really is a huge vacuum for young women in this area like @Max Roscoe wrote.

 

[infowarrior1]

It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where all these Godly men were just waiting to marry and provide for Godly women and the families they create. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world. Even in the most conservative churches, there are throngs of women of all ages hoping to meet a good man to marry.

I think these days a woman is wise to be equipped to provide for herself if she must. Generally this is easier to do when college-educated. If I had a daughter, I'd advise her as best I could on an approach for finding a good husband. I'd also encourage her to have a backup plan to provide for herself, in case it takes longer than she hopes or doesn't work out for whatever reason.

I think its also just the sex ratio. Given the long-term trends since the 12th century:

http://podles.org/files/Church-Impotent/ChurchImpotent_Chapter6.pdf

Maybe it will change. Maybe not. But in the end its God's will. The other solution is Church networking to ensure better matchmaking.

So the lack could be made up by excess from other areas.

 

[infowarrior1]

In a stable, loving, Christian family, I can see how this would be ideal. Personally, I didn't come from that kind of household. I became independent out of necessity.

If this is a family's plan, to discourage higher education and set daughters up to be dependent on others for survival (parents, extended family, and/or husband), I think they have the responsibility to ensure those women are taken care of in any scenario. What if her husband turns out to be an adulterer, or he unexpectedly dies at a young age? That dependent woman is going to need a village supporting and providing for her, probably for her entire life.

The woman's Father is typically the historic fallback option. Even back during the darker days of Israel:

Leviticus 22:13
13But if a priest’s daughter with no children becomes widowed or divorced and returns to her father’s house, she may share her father’s food as in her youth. But no outsider may share it.

Judges 19:1-2

1Now in those days, when there was no king in Israel, a Levite who lived in the remote hill country of Ephraim took for himself a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah. 2 But she was unfaithful to him and left him to return to her father’s house in Bethlehem in Judah. After she had been there four months,

That Nation was also far more collectivist than ourselves. They are arranged by Father's families and by Clans. And all those collectively made up a safety net and the "Village" that would help support the women in their roles.

 

[infowarrior1]

Going off what infowarrior1 said, I think the answer to this question is the same for men as it is women: What do you want in life, and is college the route to achieving that?

Between my sister and I, I chose higher education at a public university (and remained a virgin until my now husband found me in my last year of schooling), and she chose family towards the end of her military service. My husband and I don't have children and don't want any -- we have plenty of nieces to dote upon between our two families. For this reason, we're able to pursue our careers. Also, it just so happens that my career is 100% remote, and completely conducive to being a homemaker (which I currently am) and a stay-at-home mom if we ever decided to adopt (he can't have children), but I've always been willing to make that sacrifice if we did have kids in the picture because while I think anyone can do anything, no one can do everything. Regarding my sister, she is currently preparing for a career in politics once her children are grown. I don't know if she thinks she'll need college courses to help her achieve her goal or not.

In my experience, no matter who you are or where you come from, college is a tool like anything else in life. The answer to whether one goes to college or not is whether one needs it or not for what they want to do.

In regards to the subject of Men going to college. They are fast disappearing.

Professor Scott Galloway has warned of a “mating” crisis in the US as fewer men go to college.

“We have mating inequality in this country,” the marketing professor at New York University’s Stern School of Business told CNN on Saturday.

“Two in three relationships start on Tinder, 50 men, 50 women. Forty-six women show all their attention to just four men and what do those four [men] have? They signal success with a college degree,” he said.



Women make up almost 60 per cent of college students with men being at 40 per cent, and the gap is growing. In the fall of 1970, almost 59 per cent of college students were men, 41 per cent were women.

In 2020, US colleges enrolled 1.5 million fewer students than in 2015 and 71 per cent of those who have chosen to not study on are men. According to the Common Application, women made up 3.8 million college applications in the most recent school year, while men made up 2.8 million.

Mr Galloway noted that men also “drop out at a greater rate”.

“Over the next few years, for every one man that graduates from college, there’s going to be two women,” he said. “So this is becoming overwhelming. College is becoming the domain of women and not men.”

Professor warns of a ‘mating’ crisis in US as fewer men go to college

‘College graduate women aren’t interested in mating with men who don’t have college degrees,’ Scott Galloway says

www.independent.co.uk

 

[PineTreeFarmer]

I got married and started college when I was 18. At 180 hours I capped out the maximum number of hours covered by my student grants for married, young people with low income under Pell. I don't have student loans debt.

I wouldn't trade my education because my local history wasn't taught to me in high school and I needed to know the information to parent my children successfully in our particular environment. I'm glad I had the time and resources to seek out that knowledge.

Being knowledgeable about something doesn't mean you need to capitalize on it. I once had a professor tell me she wasn't there to educate me, she was there to train me to get a job. But retaking her class two times after receiving a D for missing classes to care for my family taught me no less than succeeding and going into a career. It taught me that my family takes greater precedence, and the tax system supports my failure as a student.

Use your knowledge to help your spouse, siblings, friends, church body and children. People are so busy saying what they can't or shouldn't do, they don't realize working outlets for useful already exist. There is just so much shame attached to using the pre-existing structure of American welfare for the benefit of conservatives.

And I needed the pushback from older childless female women with doctorates in academia to remind me that I couldn't have their career and be a stay at home mom, or pick peas with my grandfather into his 70's on our farm.

 

[PVW]

Yes, provided it's affordable and she get married before she matriculates.