Single Fathers Out There

[Kona]

If you make well into six figures, get off the internet and call,a lawyer about this RIGHT NOW!!!

I bet this guy can help:

Also, considering your high income, why is the transportation and hotel an issue? Do they have airports near you?

Aloha!

 

[The Black Knight]

This is from another thread I posted in: ( https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-57398-post-1372469.html#pid1372469 )

Just as I've seen women fuck over men in divorce rapes, I have more than a few guys who I've mentored under that went through hard times with their wife sticking right by them through thick and thin with crippling debt.

Women aren't so simple that we can paint the broad stroke that marriage is evil and that women are Satan incarnate. It's why I still hold true the mantra that us men will never ever be able to understand women nor should we try too.

OP you clearly are lacking in life experience if you're using such broad terms right here. There is no mathematical consistency or logical proof that will ever predict a woman's actions, or even at that a man's actions.

In the US, marriage IS evil in certain states given individual state laws that incentivizes non-desirable and destructive behavior. Any man (or person for that matter) that attempts a marriage and ends up being the higher earner of the two is putting themselves at enormous financial risk in certain states.

A few examples:

1. Some states have no caps on child support. Some cap at like 13,000/year max (Nevada). In states with no caps, women will sell abortions to rich men they've trapped. Pay them 150k now or you will pay 1 million+ over 18 years. They will also obviously fight tooth and nail for full custody to get max pay out.

1a. In some states, child support is paid out as a percentage of each persons incomes and time with children. In some other states, it's paid out entirely by non-custody parent.

2. Division of property, what is consider marital property, and pre-nup/post-nup recognition/enforcement varies from state to state.

3. Some states assume joint custody with children. Some automatically give the non-breadwinner custody. Some assume the woman regardless of situation should get full custody.

I'm of the strong opinion that one of the most important aspects to consider when settling down with a woman is what degree of real leverage you can maintain over your partner. Women already have enormous cultural and legal advantages in the US by and large so us current/future providers need every little bit of help we can get.

In certain states, the marriage/child support laws are beyond the pale and are straight up evil if you are looking to be the provider in the relationship (ex: Massachusetts). In other states, they are actually somewhat in the realm of being reasonable (ex: Texas).

For me at least, I've written off certain states for work and having a family solely because of the marriage/child support laws. The risk and lack of leverage is simply too high. I also believe the less incentives a woman has to blow up a marriage, the higher the odds of a marriage staying intact regardless of the woman or game. Women are impulsive, selfish, and emotional and many will cave in a time of weakness or struggle if they have an easily accessible lucrative exit option.

The point is that if anyone here decides to get married in the US, make sure you have a VERY thorough understanding of your states marriage and child support laws.

The following is a FANTASTIC source of info for each US state (and some overseas locations). EVERY man on this forum should check this site out and read up; if only to get a sense in detail how shit really works. I can't recommend it enough; it was a total game-changer for me:

http://www.realworlddivorce.com/

Out of all of the aforementioned, check that link out! It has situations for every state with men who make six figures and are dealing with various female/kids situations. They use the same situations across all the states so you can compare and contrast easily how little/much you can get screwed in certain states.

Once you are done viewing that, get your ass a lawyer ASAP.

From what I can tell, you are getting off really light right now. $9000/year in child support for a man making six figures is very low. Here is an example from the website on Massachusetts:

Scenario 4: 1.75-year marriage with 8-month-old child

A 25-year-old woman marries a 40-year-old never-married medical doctor earning $275,000 per year. She had been earning $50,000 per year working as a receptionist in a medical office. She has a child after a year of marriage, quitting her job during the 7th month of pregnancy due to fatigue. She files for divorce when the child is 8 months old (after 1.75 years of marriage), alleging that the father did not participate in the infant's care, e.g., he did not change diapers or get up in the middle of the night to soothe the baby. The mother will allege that the father was verbally demanding and abusive, though there won't be any witnesses to corroborate. The father had savings of $2 million that he accumulated prior to the marriage but there was no significant accumulation of assets during the less-than-two-year marriage. The mother seeks a division of assets as well as alimony.

"Seek and ye shall find works only if one believes in God and then finds her. It does not work that way in a divorce courtroom in Massachusetts," notes Nissenbaum, "Statutory provisions say this wife can get alimony only for half the time between the date of marriage and the service of the summons of the complaint for divorce. That means the wife will get alimony for about 10 months. She might get an award of rehabilitative alimony – which could be a lump sum or be paid over longer than 10 months." What about a substantial property division? "In a short marriage, the court tries to put the parties back into the situation they were in prior to the marriage. Thus it is not likely that wife will be awarded any part of husband's pre-marital assets, although to be practical and avoid paying lawyers, perhaps the wife would be given $100,000 or more in a lump sum. After all she needs a place for her and the baby to live in."

Nissenbaum thought that the wife would surely get custody and tax-free child support of approximately $43,316 per year ($952,952 over the next 20 years "so long as the child lived with her and was primarily dependent on the parents for support").

Source: http://www.realworlddivorce.com/Massachusetts

When you get a lawyer, my number one question would be:

Does child support payments start from date of filing or from an earlier date like child birth in BOTH states? I say both because she could file in your state or her own and if one state is far more generous than the other, you can bet she will go there.

If it starts at when a claim is filed in BOTH states and she continues to go along with this unofficial low payment plan, you could ultimately save yourself $10,000+ every year for the next two-ish decades. This would put more money in your pocket to take trains/buses/planes. In some states, chicks can hit you up with an accident baby 15 years later, file for child support, and get child support back-pay all the way from the child's BIRTH! Imagine finding out you owed 15 years in back child support all of a sudden? That could easily be six figures out the door just like that.

Suffice to say, the family laws in some states are straight up evil and insane.

Anyhow, get a lawyer to sort this out and think of the best angle of attack ASAP.

 

[AboveAverageJoe]

Just got back from the Islands just now. Too tired to write about gaining custody and raising my kids.
Will weigh in tomorrow.

 

[SamuelBRoberts]

These threads are always fucking terrifying.

 

[NewDayNewFace]

Thanks for the replies everybody they are very helpful and insightful.

Judges don't give a shit about who banged who or why. They care about the kids. And consistency in their lives.

Questions for the OP, because this sticks out at me:

we agreed that I could spend 7 days with my son a month in my hometown. We also agreed we would meet halfway.

- Is this an ex-wife or a baby mama ? Regardless of the answer, is your name on the bc ?

If the baby was conceived during the marriage, then legally the kid is your responsibility. If this is a baby mama, and your name ain't on the bc, then you have no legal standing, and may need to prove paternity.

- This $800 a month.. have you been ordered by the court to pay it, or are you giving her the money "just because" ? Have you been to court at all yet ? For anything ?

If you're giving her money just because, stop. Buy clothes and toys for the kid, but YOU buy them. Ship them down if you have to. But unless you have a court order telling you to give her $800/month, stop it.

You're setting a precedent for possibly paying her more than what the calculation could be (assuming you impute HER income). Or worse, paying CS for a child that's not your responsibility.

We were not married Thank GOD. Almost did but I knew where it would lead if I did that mess. When my son was born I signed the birth certificate. I haven't been ordered by the court 800$. When we first broke up all of her bills together excluding rent was around that number so that is the number she wanted.

Even before my son was born things were rocky. Everytime I paid her a check or anything after my son was born I wrote Child Support on it. Everytime.

To Kona:

Since I travel a lot for work I live with my parents. When I was in a relationship I had a big house with my ex. When we broke up I dumped the house because I didn't need it. Transportation and hotel is an issue because I'm independent in what I do. Every contract I have is normally in a different state and I fly back 4 days every two weeks. Going forward I may just time it where I fly to Florida pick my son up, then go to my hometown. But anyway she has signed a contract I wrote last month stating she would meet me or my parents half way so he can spend time with me and my side of the family.

 

[Laner]

You have bigger problems then just not being able to see your son a few days a month. And $800 is nothing. When that kid hits his teens, she is going to chase you down for twice that.

She already moved away, to Florida - #YOLO- so she is already on the road to estrangement. You are going to fully lose your son.

If you really want to be a part of your sons life, and have the ability to do so, go for full custody. If you can inspire El Mech, he can offer all sorts of advice on how to do this.

Women generally move to Florida for one reason. See above #YOLO

 

[Sam Malone]

Ok..

You've never married the mother, but your name is on the bc. Legally, you're (half ?) responsible for the child.

You haven't been directed by the court, yet you're giving her $800 a month ? Why ? Expect to pay that, and (it sounds like) probably more. Most likely whatever the state guidelines are for that. Right now you're giving her a 'freebie'. Stop doing that now. Buy the kid clothes and toys, but for god's sake stop giving her money unless the court tells you to.

You can impute her potential income, at least closing the gap a bit. If she has the potential to make a significant amount of money, anywhere close to what you're making, that can close the gap significantly.

If your annual income is $100K/year, and her potential, potential income is, say, $60K/year, the difference is.. $40K.
The CS percentage for one child (at least in NY) is I believe 17%.. Of the difference ($40K).
17% of $40K is $6800, annually. Divided by 12 months = $566.66

Obviously if her potential income is considerably less, then your monthly CS payment will be higher.

Does she have any degrees or training in a specific field that could offset your future, court ordered payments ?

But anyway she has signed a contract I wrote last month stating she would meet me or my parents half way so he can spend time with me and my side of the family.

Last month.. four to six weeks ago... and she's already changing it up..

This "contract" doesn't mean shit.

You can have her sign a contract to bring you a large pepperoni pizza every Tuesday, Thursday, and every other weekend. At any point, she can bring you a medium with cheese if she wants to. Hell, she can stop bringing you pepperoni pizzas altogether. Unless there's a court order stating specifically that she has to bring you large pepperoni pizzas.

So you decide to take her to court because she isn't bringing you large pepperoni pizzas. The judge is going to ask what the court order says. If it ain't in the court order, guess what, no pizza for you.

The court order is basically used to settle disputes that you and the mother can't agree on. Your court order will be the most important document you ever negotiate.
Do not take this document lightly. This will be the template for everything moving forward. That said, be realistic in your goals. Some things may be more costly to litigate versus simply conceding X.

But always get something when you give something. Always. Think of every possible scenario, and stack it into the court order. Make it airtight. (This is where you get, among other things, the 'halfway' meet written in stone in a legal document).

One of the biggest hurdles you have working against you right now is that she moved, with the kid, 14 hours away. And has been in the new residence for more than six months. Establishing residency.

And take note, the longer you wait, she can potentially go after you for back support. Rendering your previous $800 per month a 'gift'.

Take that $800 a month and get your hands on an attorney. Today.

Above all, see your son. Make the drives for now. Show the court that you want to be in your son's life.

 

[Engineer]

Thanks for the advice. I have no problem paying 800$ but I don't know anybody else paying that high of child support. Based on my gross income it is a good deal to pay that. Besides that however my main concern is her throwing in my face she doesn't have to meet me half way.

You've actually got a not-too-terrible situation compared to mine and other fathers I know sharing custody with an ex. Here are my thoughts:

1) This is all a negotiation with the goal of what is best for your kid, and what you can tolerate towards that end. If necessary, shift your mindset from "this is unfair" to "how can we agree to something we can live with". If you're angry with her for whatever reason, deal with that, as it could hurt your judgement and negotiating skills. Easy to say and tough to do, believe me I know.

2) Propose a compromise "If we meet in Podunktown for the exchange, which is 8 hours from me and 6 from you, would that work? In exchange let's cut the child support from $800 to $750 for the extra gas and wear and tear on my car"

3) Most importantly, as others have said, get something from the courts on paper. Then she cannot "throw in your face" something later, moving the goalposts whenever she wants. Consider a mediator, since that could be seen by her as less adversarial and perhaps be easier for you to reach agreement quickly. In any case you will probably end up paying more in CS, since as you know you got a sweet deal there, but you will have the security of a court-mandated protection of your interests. You have 16+ years of this left, what will you do if she starts making unilateral decisions for the child's school/church/medical issues? Vacation time during summers when the kid is in school? Halloween with you or her this year? Trust me, having all that hammered out in a document is well worth it so you don't have to discuss every time or remember what you did last year.

 

[Onto]

If your annual income is $100K/year, and her potential, potential income is, say, $60K/year, the difference is.. $40K.
The CS percentage for one child (at least in NY) is I believe 17%.. Of the difference ($40K).
17% of $40K is $6800, annually. Divided by 12 months = $566.66

Obviously if her potential income is considerably less, then your monthly CS payment will be higher.

I wish, but that is not correct. In NY it's 17% of your gross - FICA + Daycare/Medical/etc. The Mother's pay really doesn't come into play. I believe the man's salary is capped at $130,000/year now but the judge can always go higher if he wants.

NewDayNewFace: You mentioned she is going to move back to your hometown where you live in June? If that's correct, maybe think about waiting it out for that to happen instead of going to court.

What about getting a short term apt in her city or close by and living there for a little while?

How do the child support laws differ between your state and Florida? Which is more Father friendly? It could help guide what you do, where you live, etc.

 

[TonySandos]

Sam Malone, only actual income counts and it only decides in possible decreases in support paid.

You also have the money vs object as "gifts" backwards. The court counts money doled out. Toys, diapers and other things count for nothing when showing a record of support lent. Are you speaking from a place of experience or not?

On what Engineer said;
Yea it's nice to draw up ever decision as you wish, but if you keep it out of court for your entire lives, she can still support and possible gain back payments past the age of 18 if the court allows it. Most states have monthly and yearly caps. I'd rather work with that than have a woman's appeasement lording over me for the rest of my life.

Again on what Engineer said;
if you don't take it to court, her willingness is all you have as far as say in how to raise the child goes. We all know women are the more stubborn and less rational sex.

 

[Engineer]

On what Engineer said;
Yea it's nice to draw up ever decision as you wish, but if you keep it out of court for your entire lives, she can still support and possible gain back payments past the age of 18 if the court allows it. Most states have monthly and yearly caps. I'd rather work with that than have a woman's appeasement lording over me for the rest of my life.

Again on what Engineer said;
if you don't take it to court, her willingness is all you have as far as say in how to raise the child goes. We all know women are the more stubborn and less rational sex.

I wasn't clear, the mediator option includes getting a court order. Spend 10 hours with your ex and the mediator, a good one will have a boilerplate form covering 90% of the common issues and you'll spend most of your time negotiating the special things for your circumstance like the OP's travel thing, then the court approves the document and issues a judgement or whatever, and you save yourself 10,000 hours later arguing about stupid details. You both agreed to it, so it will be harder for her to argue her way out of some commitment in there.

The less adversarial part of mediation is it's not a battle royale with lawyers like you sometimes see. Of course you should still have an attorney review the final document to make sure the mediator didn't drop the ball somehow. This is how I had things done and it's not ideal but has served everyone fairly well for the last 13 years. I had a separation then divorce, so OP's situation is slightly different.

Final note, Merenguero is an expert on this. Disregard his advice at your own risk!

 

[NewDayNewFace]

Everything I give her has Child Support on it just to cover my tracks.

This girl is moving back to my hometown next June just because she wants to get back with me so bad. We have been broken up for ten months but it's been ridiculous. She has visited me at my work locations 2x and spent weeks with me at my work locations. Whenever we have been together physically we get along but whenever she goes back to Florida she goes crazy and pushes me away. She wants me to live with her in Florida for 10 months until she moves back to my hometown.

It's to a point where I don't want to be with her at all. She can't get that through her head though and she still wants me to spend time with her on her terms. I rather not go out of my way to spend time with her. If she lived in my hometown it may have been a different story. She flew to Connecticut last month where I was working and we spent three weeks together. It was rocky at the beginning because she found out I flew out of the country on vacation without her. Idk why she was mad because I am single. She ended up calling the cops for absolutely no reason and went through all of my belongings. Towards the end of her trip we started to get along. Once she left however she goes crazy and makes it unmanageable to even talk to her let alone get along with her.

Me getting an apartment in Florida is out of the question. I don't want anything to do with that state. I plan on staying in my hometown for a very long time unless I just get a permanent job somewhere else that will make me a millionaire.

 

[Onto]

This girl is moving back to my hometown next June just because she wants to get back with me so bad.

As everyone has said, find a good lawyer. In most states you can stop the other parent from relocating by petitioning the court. Might be too late now. I don't know.

Talk to a lawyer about your options at this moment. If it's too late to force her back to your hometown, then maybe play the game and draw her back there. Once she's there you may be able to petition the court to keep her there.

I know you want this resolved in the short-term, but think long-term strategy. Which sounds like getting your son back to your hometown. Next June will arrive sooner than you think.

 

[Kona]

Everything I give her has Child Support on it just to cover my tracks.

That doesn't mean shit. You aren't covering your tracks to anything.

She ended up calling the cops for absolutely no reason and went through all of my belongings.

Look forward to a lifetime of that type of bullshit, unless you CALL A LAWYER RIGHT NOW!

I can't believe you haven't done that yet. This question of yours has been on the forum long enough for you to have done so.

The only two reasons I see for not doing that are 1 )You are trolling NASA Test Pilot style. Or 2) You are in hawaii , and today is a holiday and lawyers offices are closed.

If #2 is the reason, Happy Admissions Day!!!!!

Aloha!

 

[Engineer]

Everything I give her has Child Support on it just to cover my tracks.

This girl is moving back to my hometown next June just because she wants to get back with me so bad. We have been broken up for ten months but it's been ridiculous. She has visited me at my work locations 2x and spent weeks with me at my work locations. Whenever we have been together physically we get along but whenever she goes back to Florida she goes crazy and pushes me away. She wants me to live with her in Florida for 10 months until she moves back to my hometown.

It's to a point where I don't want to be with her at all. She can't get that through her head though and she still wants me to spend time with her on her terms. I rather not go out of my way to spend time with her. If she lived in my hometown it may have been a different story. She flew to Connecticut last month where I was working and we spent three weeks together. It was rocky at the beginning because she found out I flew out of the country on vacation without her. Idk why she was mad because I am single. She ended up calling the cops for absolutely no reason and went through all of my belongings. Towards the end of her trip we started to get along. Once she left however she goes crazy and makes it unmanageable to even talk to her let alone get along with her.

Me getting an apartment in Florida is out of the question. I don't want anything to do with that state. I plan on staying in my hometown for a very long time unless I just get a permanent job somewhere else that will make me a millionaire.

Your situation is not ideal, but here is an idea. Offer to increase the support to say $1K if she moves back ASAP. You will save more than the $200 delta in gas/time on the road anyway. Once she's back in your state, petition for 1/4 custody or whatever your work schedule permits and parental rights to the degree you can. One issue to consider is if your work schedule is unpredictable, potentially affecting custody schedule, and you wouldn't expect her to accommodate that in an agreement without giving up something in return.

Good luck man, this sounds more difficult than usual.

 

[RunsWithScissors]

You're getting solid advice from the members here and I don't have much to add at this point. I spent the majority of 2014 fighting my ex relocating with my kids across the country. It cost me $10k and a ton of time and energy, but I won and gained 50% parenting time while retaining joint decision making. My best advice is to make time with your kid a top priority, you have to demonstrate to the courts that being in your child's life is important to you. That may mean doing some unpleasant things like being in FL more than you want. And get a lawyer ASAP.

 

[A Simple Visitor]

Let this be a lesson for any man in here, thinking about getting married / making children.
Damn, if only vasectomy was possible in my country, it'd happily shoot blank for the rest of my life.

 

[Sam Malone]

If your annual income is $100K/year, and her potential, potential income is, say, $60K/year, the difference is.. $40K.
The CS percentage for one child (at least in NY) is I believe 17%.. Of the difference ($40K).
17% of $40K is $6800, annually. Divided by 12 months = $566.66

Obviously if her potential income is considerably less, then your monthly CS payment will be higher.

I wish, but that is not correct. In NY it's 17% of your gross - FICA + Daycare/Medical/etc. The Mother's pay really doesn't come into play. I believe the man's salary is capped at $130,000/year now but the judge can always go higher if he wants.

Correct, Onto.

I didn't include those for a couple of reasons. 1) they can be negotiated, 2) the mother may have the child on government benefits.

My goal with the above calculations was to get OP thinking.

Sam Malone, only actual income counts and it only decides in possible decreases in support paid.

You also have the money vs object as "gifts" backwards. The court counts money doled out. Toys, diapers and other things count for nothing when showing a record of support lent. Are you speaking from a place of experience or not?

Tony,

If she's got a degree in rocket science, her potential income can be used to lower his court ordered CS payment. For that matter, they can impute minimum wage on her end to help offset his payment.

It's one thing if she can't work due to a legitimate reason, it's another thing if she's voluntarily sitting at home with her thumb up her ass.

As far as the court counting money doled out, it counts for nothing if there isn't an order in place. Right now he's not legally obligated to pay anything (note:legally).

Should he show up in court and be ordered to pay $800 (or more or less), he doesn't get to skate for the X months moving forward that he's been paying her the $800 before the order.
Simply put, he won't get 'credit' for the months prior to a court order from when he's been giving her the $800.

If he buys clothes, toys, etc., the "money" is going to the kid. It's NOT potentially going in the mom's pocket to pay for _____.

All that said, OP needs to sit down with an attorney yesterday.

Edit: Tony, I must have erased a few sentences in my earlier post.

Once the court order is in place, OP should go directly through the state to pay CS. Otherwise the mom can claim she hasn't been paid.

 

[El Padrone]

I never really wanted to be a dad. I'm getting a vasectomy at some point. Having kids seems so toxic these days.

Good luck to you buddy. And don't you wife up that chick, at least not without an iron clad prenup. Good luck man!

 

[JayR]

Good lord.

1) Move right now to Florida as close as you can be to your kid.
2) Stop sending any money to mommy. Without a court order, the words "Child Support" written on a check might as well say "Gift."
3) Find the local men's group in your new Florida home. Ask them who the best family law attorney in your jurisdiction is.
4) Expand your vocabulary to include "Visitation Interference," "Maternal Gatekeeping," "Parental Alienation," "Borderline Personality Disorder," etc.
5) Start keeping receipts for every penny you spend, especially money spent on your kid.
6) Instruct new aggressive lawyer to request 50/50 custody. Do not be tricked into accepting 30/70 because "that's the standard." I fell for that shit and judges told me later "you requested to be the visitor, I see your signature right here..."
7) Get this book... https://www.amazon.com/Taken-Into-C...1471668578&sr=8-1&keywords=taken+into+custody
8) Find out what software Florida judges use to calculate child support and get yourself a copy. In California it is DissoMaster, and they make it hard for fathers to get a copy, but it is $possible$.
9) Determine how much mommy is making/is capable of making. Judges expect both parent to work -- if she's slacking to get more CS, you need to be prepared to prove it.

Don't say dumb stuff in court like "I make six figures, but I have to travel a lot." Judge hears "I have plenty of money to give to poor mommy, and no time to spend with the kid -- better grant her full custody and award her big child support..."