Spanking Children as a form of discipline

RWIsrael

Woodpecker
I don't believe all parents who spank are sadists or perverts. But I do believe that their choice to spank is at least somewhat informed by centuries of poor parenting practices that we have become collectively desensitized to.

I would analogize it to circumcision. Serious neurological harm is done by circumcision, but most people who have their children circumcised do so because they themselves were circumcised (survivor bias), they were given disinformation about the costs and "benefits" of the mutilation procedure, etc. While many who circumcise are not sadists or perverts...the practice was popularized by perverts who ritualized the mutilation and subsequent sucking of baby penises on the eighth day of life. Not to mention, more recently, there are sickos who capitalize on the baby foreskin trade (I remember a female celebrity going on Ellen years ago to talk about her adrenochrome baby foreskin facial). The whole thing mirrors the spanking issue.

I think there's something similar to be said about vaccines, too. I saw a post in the Men's Forum wherein some attention whore mom was pimping out her pre-pubescent daughter to a COVID jab trial for youth. Most normies are totally unaware of the dangers of [traditional] vaccines and believe vaccination to be in the best interest of their child, but the sadists and perverts were the ones who legitimized the practice in the first place, thrusting it into the consciousness of the normie.

That being said, I have absolutely encountered people who get sadistic pleasure out of beating their children, some of whom beat their children on the rear end until the day they turned 18. I realize most don't, but it has to be said. In my experience, the most enthusiastic proponents of peaceful parenting and the anti-spanking conversation are that way because they themselves were spanked and they are intimately aware of its deleterious effects.

Also, regarding the terms I used...I believe "spanking" almost always refers to the inflicting of pain on the buttocks. I think people generally refer to the inflicting of pain on other areas as "swatting," but I could be wrong. I referred to the buttocks as an erogenous zone because they unmistakably are - the nerves in that area are interconnected with the nerves of the genital region, and repeated blunt force trauma to the buttocks can result in genital issues like vaginismus.

My husband is from a culture where it is socially acceptable to cause blunt force trauma to the mouth of a child as a form of "discipline." One time his cousin's toddler daughter was acting out at the dinner table, and her mom took a blunt object and beat it on her lips until they bled. I think any heritage American would [rightly] recoil in horror at that incident (even minus the blood), but most would think it socially acceptable to spank a child a mere inch or two away from the genital region.

Lastly...there are many Catholic saints who taught against corporal punishment of children as early as St. John Chrysostom, who lived in a time far before postmodernism affected the conversation (c. 347-407). I remember reading about even more who lived during the medieval era.

The reason buttocks are spanked is because it causes no physical damage and no intense pain, no internal organs or bleeding such as a smack to the mouth or worse.
Sure some parents go overboard using a belt or a cane, but the idea is to NOT cause damage.
It doesn't hurt so much as lets you know you've crossed a line and are being punished. You are enforcing boundaries, not showing the child who would win in a fight.

Equating it to sadists and sexual molestors because it's an "erogenous zone" sounds ridiculous to me.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
I was beat to shit as a kid. For everything. Parental inability to teach or be patient, neglect, anger, alcohol and "that's the way it is" plus my stubborn strong will did not help me at all as a kid. Brooms, shoes, belts, whips, paint cans, rocks, slaps, fists, kicks and any other kind of physical punishment you can think of.

This stunted my growth internally in all facets( emotionally, spiritually personally) and I was, after the 6th grade at leas 5'10" eventually stopping at 6'2" by the summer before 9th grade. This in effect made it seem OK for my parents to beat me because I guess they thought I needed more corporal punishment since I was now a stubborn LARGE kid.

Now, with my own 3 yr old son I MAKE time to take time to teach him properly, guide him through everything so that he understands very well how proper behavior looks and how we expect him to act when under the roof of his parents plus any teaching moment that arises. I have a very deep loud voice that he responds well too so I hardly have to RAISE my voice to be understood. It's a commanding voice as is.

I've spanked him once and that was when him and his little girl cousin were fighting and he straight up smacked her to give him his toy back.
I feel that's the only time to spank a kid is when they harm family.
Everything else requires your patience and dedication to do it right the 1st time.
We don't beat old people in nursing homes when they don't do what they're told or act stubborn, so why strike a being that barely even understands why it's being stubborn or acting but yet depends on YOU to take care of it and guide it?
Make a better generation of humans that what came before you.
 

KC123

Pigeon
Woman
I was beat to shit as a kid. For everything. Parental inability to teach or be patient, neglect, anger, alcohol and "that's the way it is" plus my stubborn strong will did not help me at all as a kid. Brooms, shoes, belts, whips, paint cans, rocks, slaps, fists, kicks and any other kind of physical punishment you can think of.

This stunted my growth internally in all facets( emotionally, spiritually personally) and I was, after the 6th grade at leas 5'10" eventually stopping at 6'2" by the summer before 9th grade. This in effect made it seem OK for my parents to beat me because I guess they thought I needed more corporal punishment since I was now a stubborn LARGE kid.

Now, with my own 3 yr old son I MAKE time to take time to teach him properly, guide him through everything so that he understands very well how proper behavior looks and how we expect him to act when under the roof of his parents plus any teaching moment that arises. I have a very deep loud voice that he responds well too so I hardly have to RAISE my voice to be understood. It's a commanding voice as is.

I've spanked him once and that was when him and his little girl cousin were fighting and he straight up smacked her to give him his toy back.
I feel that's the only time to spank a kid is when they harm family.
Everything else requires your patience and dedication to do it right the 1st time.
We don't beat old people in nursing homes when they don't do what they're told or act stubborn, so why strike a being that barely even understands why it's being stubborn or acting but yet depends on YOU to take care of it and guide it?
Make a better generation of humans that what came before you.
That's great that you chose to break the cycle and take a different approach with your child. That shows reflection and personal growth, and most importantly, the ability to not impose your own wounds on a vulnerable being. Most people do this regularly without even realising as they are so blinded by their defense mechanisms.

I've found that parents who severely spank/beat their kids have some sort of momentary cathartis. My father always said 'I had to go through this, so why shouldn't you?' (And at the same time said he hated 'having' to spank us - notice the unintegrated parts). And as a child I didn't have an answer to it, but now that I'm grown and understand him better I can almost have sympathy for how hurt and broken he must have been to feel that towards his own child. I've long since forgiven him but always feel gladness and admiration for those who choose to do differently.

Keep it up. I wholeheartedly agree with you on: 'Make a better generation of humans that what came before you.'
 

Hell_Is_Like_Newark

Kingfisher
Gold Member
I was more open to corporal punishment until I had my son. The wife and I don't use it. Toddlers have a rising id (wants, desires) but lack the development in the prefrontal cortex (logic, emotional control, introspection) to temper emotions. When my son turned three is when his behavior tested our patience (at age 2 he was easy).

I remember he once threw a tantrum at the playground because I picked up a piece of trash and put it in the trash bin. He screamed and demanded I go into the bin and take it back out? So what was his logic? There wasn't any..

So I took him out of the park at which point he got upset even more. I bent down to his level, looked him in the eye, and used a commanding 'dad voice': "How can I take you back to the park when you are acting like this? If you want to go back, you have to control your emotions". He forced himself to calm down (took a few minutes), we went back to the park, and he was good the rest of the day.

Note: 'Dad Voice' is not yelling or screaming.
 

Renzy

Pelican
Here is my anecdotal report:

I was spanked a handful of times growing up. Was not a bad kid or a troublemaker; loved and got along with my parents. I can vividly remember that each time I got spanked (except one) I was fully aware of the consequences and decided to push ahead anyway.

My Dad would do it. Then he would let me cry it out for a bit. Then he would come back in my room and ask me if I knew why that happened, and also "do you know that I love you?". We'd basically always end it on good terms.

Once I got older, and too strong to be held down / care about spanking, he switched to simply talking. "You know, you really let me down." That stung way more than any swat on the ass ever could.

We remain best friends to this day.

My conclusion is that corporal punishment, when divorced from emotion and dealt as a strict and predictable reaction, is very healthy.

I think the key is here when it is divorced from emotion. I got spanked by both my mother and my step-father growing up and they couldn't have been more different in their approaches.

My step-father's approach was similar to what you described: I got sat down and told what I had done wrong and why I was being punished. Then I got spanked and when he spanked me it was a limited number of "swats" (as in he didn't just go on and on hitting me).

Contrast this with my mother's approach which was more like a cathartic release of rage and frustration where once she got angry she would wail on me with rulers, brushes, belts, her bare hands etc while screaming at me. Unlike with my step-father, I never knew when the hitting would stop with her. I know that a lot her behavior is due to the way she was raised (her mother did the same to her).

I've tried to make a point with my own son to never hit him in anger and when I discipline him take the same approach my step-father did with me. If my son does get spanked it's when I'm able to control my emotions in such a way as he does not feel I'm just hitting him because I've lost my temper.
 

Sherman

Ostrich
I think hitting children for discipline is psychologically damaging. Think of the world your children have to live in. They are going to have to be strong, self confident, and aggressive when they need to defend themselves. You don’t want to break their spirit. If you teach them to obey, they will be wearing masks forever and bowing to the state. Move to the country and give them the space to run around and be rambunctious. Raise independent adults, not slaves. Children who haven’t been over controlled tend to do better in life.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
The reason buttocks are spanked is because it causes no physical damage and no intense pain, no internal organs or bleeding such as a smack to the mouth or worse.
Sure some parents go overboard using a belt or a cane, but the idea is to NOT cause damage.
It doesn't hurt so much as lets you know you've crossed a line and are being punished. You are enforcing boundaries, not showing the child who would win in a fight.

Equating it to sadists and sexual molestors because it's an "erogenous zone" sounds ridiculous to me.
Agreed. I can tell you I have never been "turned on" because a massage therapist massages the butt muscles! It's relaxing and can make you realize you were sore in places you didn't know you were sore, but I'm not getting hot and bothered by it. And in regards to spanking, I am CERTAINLY not inflicting "blunt force trauma". One may as well say that enthusiastic high-fives are blunt force trauma.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
I think hitting children for discipline is psychologically damaging. Think of the world your children have to live in. They are going to have to be strong, self confident, and aggressive when they need to defend themselves. You don’t want to break their spirit. If you teach them to obey, they will be wearing masks forever and bowing to the state. Move to the country and give them the space to run around and be rambunctious. Raise independent adults, not slaves. Children who haven’t been over controlled tend to do better in life.
I see what you're saying here, but in my experience it has been the conservatively raised children (in other words, the ones who were spanked) who are anti-mask and anti- other covid rules.
 

Mrs.DanielH

Robin
Woman
On the note of "mocking" your children, I'm not sure how it would work in modern culture, but I heard of a native american practice. I don't remember the tribe. They have a practice of teaching children acceptable and unacceptable behaviors by role playing and telling stories. Parents will act out a scenario where they act inappropriately as a toddler or child to make fun of/shame the behavior. Or tell a story or have a dialogue with themselves in front of the child to convey the message. It is certainly interesting. I don't agree with completely disrespecting your child or making them think they are a bad person, but showing them that their behaviors are inappropriate through "mocking" could work. Also it's always good to keep in mind their age and level of development, as someone already posted that a 2-year old has basically no reasoning skills and works on emotion most of the time.
 

Kitty Tantrum

Woodpecker
Woman
I think hitting children for discipline is psychologically damaging.
I think people who make that blanket statement don't understand how broad a spectrum they're talking about.

One of the methods I used on my kids a small handful of times when they were little, which could technically fall under that umbrella, was to "bop" them on the fully-diapered-bottom with an empty 2-liter soda bottle. It's literally impossible for that to cause any actual pain. I've never even thought of it as spanking. Not a hard impact, just a quick flick that is startling and the bottle makes a "pop" sound. But technically I "hit" my child.

Psychologically damaging? Doubtful.

What about smacking the back of their hand when they're reaching for the hot burner or the handle of the pan on the stove? Or about to put something dangerous in their mouth?

In my mind, neither of those things qualifies as or approaches the level of "spanking" - which, by the definition I've always understood, involves using the bare-and-open hand to deliver a stinging impact. A swat, slap, smack, etc. Perhaps one of the best defenses I've seen for this method specifically is that your own hand receives roughly half of the impact, which naturally mitigates the severity of the punishment; you feel it, too. If I tried to wail on ANYONE'S backside with my open palm, I'd injure my hand/wrist long before causing any serious damage to their butt.

I think it's "problematic" to lump every imaginable form of corporal punishment in with spanking.

If you use a belt to "spank," you are actually "whipping."

If you use a stick, you are actually "switching" or "caning," etc.

If you use a paddle, you are "paddling."

Blunt force of any sort, that's "beating." That is never appropriate for discipline and should be reserved for legitimate defense of self or others.
 

Elipe

Kingfisher
I think hitting children for discipline is psychologically damaging. Think of the world your children have to live in. They are going to have to be strong, self confident, and aggressive when they need to defend themselves. You don’t want to break their spirit. If you teach them to obey, they will be wearing masks forever and bowing to the state. Move to the country and give them the space to run around and be rambunctious. Raise independent adults, not slaves. Children who haven’t been over controlled tend to do better in life.
Like @Luna Novem says, it's usually the conservatively raised children (aka spanked kids) that aren't wearing masks and bowing to the state. You have it completely backwards there, it's the kids with the hippie parents who wouldn't lay a hand on them that went on to become spoiled crybabies that want big daddy government to give them the stimulus checks and take care of all their problems for them.

Spanking teaches kids that actions have consequences, often very viscerally unpleasant ones, and teaches them forward thinking and also introduces them to the concept that all authority - and I mean ALL AUTHORITY - derives ultimately from possessing a monopoly on violence. This is not a bad thing. This is just how it is, this is how reality works. To be meaningful, authority must be able to assert itself by force.

The spanked kids grew up into men and women that understood that the government does what it does and gets away with it because it has the monopoly on violence. Stupid hippie-raised kids, on the other hand, think that the government is just full of nice, kindly people that will listen to reason and give up their power willingly (lol) if they just explain things hard enough, like their parents did for them.

Surely if we just explain to Biden that all those millennials are struggling to pay off their life debts to the colleges, he'll understand and realize that things kind of suck for people, and he'll just have a Scrooge-on-Christmas-morning moment and start handing out money like candy.

Walls of text will fix everything!
 

Sherman

Ostrich
When they are very young, you may need to restrain them with some force to keep them from hurting themselves. But as they get older you want them to learn about real world consequences. For example, if your boy breaks something, then he has to work a month to get the money to repair it. This teaches responsibility that creates self esteem. Hitting him teaches nothing, and has been mentioned, leads to perversion.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Spanking teaches kids that actions have consequences, often very viscerally unpleasant ones, and teaches them forward thinking and also introduces them to the concept that all authority - and I mean ALL AUTHORITY - derives ultimately from possessing a monopoly on violence. This is not a bad thing. This is just how it is, this is how reality works. To be meaningful, authority must be able to assert itself by force.
I have to refute this mistaken belief in some way. Spanking does not "teach" kids consequences for behavior. It teaches them to fear doing anything lest they catch a beating for it. If you're resorting to violence of any kind then that means your kid(s) are already under your thumb in some authoritarian way and you control just how they can behave. They aren't free will beings. They're already slaves. Slaves to your lazy physically punishing parenting. Give them something other than beatings to be proud of you about.

Contrast this with giving them enough space to act out when they do, as they always will, and having the patience to explain to them and guide them away from behaving in such a manner you find displeasing. Biggest sponges in the universe exists inside their little skulls and you're going to teach them physical violence and "hands on" authoritarianism is the way of the world? No wonder we never evolve past talking monkeys and a few hundred years of civilization before crumbling to savagery and our vices.
You can't mock this "wall of text learning" as merely a hippie dippie thing because many people actually TAKE THE TIME, like I do, to parent their offspring vs. finding the most immediate resolution to what could be very productive teaching moments. Instead you will be remembered as the parent who beat them when it came to this or that. That's how I remember my father. Not as the man who helped guide me to be a 2-Time High School football All-American, but the asshole who beat me when I didn't execute assignments properly or protect my siblings enough.

You are shutting off one neural pathway of healthy growth, understanding of misbehavior and replacing it with a negative neural pathway that if not controlled will present them with legal ramifications in the future, as adults, because they will not have that empathy or sympathies that needs to be tied to their actions. If a beating is all they get for their transgressions then the sky is the limit for what transgressions they are capable of.
If you feel like what you're doing right now is in any way a short cut instead of a long cut then you will be arresting their development for future coping and resolution skills that they should have been taught as kids, by you, they're trusted guardian.
Put down the brute force and break out the brain cells.
Who here wants another generation of broken Boomers?! Not I.
 

Renzy

Pelican
I have to refute this mistaken belief in some way. Spanking does not "teach" kids consequences for behavior. It teaches them to fear doing anything lest they catch a beating for it. If you're resorting to violence of any kind then that means your kid(s) are already under your thumb in some authoritarian way and you control just how they can behave. They aren't free will beings. They're already slaves. Slaves to your lazy physically punishing parenting. Give them something other than beatings to be proud of you about.

It teaches them to fear doing anything lest they catch a beating for it

If they are being disciplined correctly, then you are not teaching them to fear doing anything, but instead teaching them not to do something very specific. That specific thing they did is why they are being punished, and you are sending the clear message not to do it again.

Also, to Elipe's point - in the real world there are often very real, very physical consequences for people who do not follow the rules. That's because in the end, rules (laws) are just words on paper. What makes them enforceable is the physical "or else" part that goes along with those rules.
 

Elipe

Kingfisher
When they are very young, you may need to restrain them with some force to keep them from hurting themselves. But as they get older you want them to learn about real world consequences. For example, if your boy breaks something, then he has to work a month to get the money to repair it. This teaches responsibility that creates self esteem. Hitting him teaches nothing, and has been mentioned, leads to perversion.
Nobody's saying that you're supposed to continue spanking your kids when they're older. As has been said earlier in this thread, the point of spanking is to make the child not need to be spanked anymore. When the child is at the point that they can work a month to make the money to repair something they broke, they're most likely past that point.

Why is spanking such a misrepresented concept? Every damned time someone argues against spanking, they make it sound like parents are going to town on their children with nine-tails. And then there's this person saying that spanking is bad because the butt is erogenous, in spite of the fact that the butt is one of the more well-cushioned parts of the bodies and is designed to withstand impacts, such as when children do the thing where they drop down from standing straight onto their butts on the floor.

It teaches them to fear doing anything lest they catch a beating for it.
That's called understanding consequences, genius!

Contrast this with giving them enough space to act out when they do, as they always will, and having the patience to explain to them and guide them away from behaving in such a manner you find displeasing.
My own parents tried this with me. It didn't work. They ended up having to resort to corporeal punishments. I just nodded along to the lectures and then went back to doing what I was doing before. I was getting more emotional reward out of having fun misbehaving than I was getting emotionally penalized. The stakes weren't high enough for me to not press my luck.

They're already slaves.
Yes, they effectively are. You're a slave yourself, too. You live in the United States. You probably work under an employer too. What's one more layer of slavery?

Also, one of the defining qualities of a slave is that the slaveowner is generally responsible for the provisions of subsistence. Sounds like a child to me. The Bible even makes a comparison between being a child and being a slave:
Galatians 4:1 said:
What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate.
A child is effectively the same thing as a slave, except that the child is expected to gain freedom as he ages. Your emotional outburst about children being free-willed and not slaves is a product of modern American culture, not of truth. The word "slave" is like a festering, open wound in the psyche of a modern American because of the mistake that was chattel slavery, but one need not think of chattel slavery when referring to the concept of slavery. It is more proper to think of slavery as a concept of responsibility. If your needs are being taken care of by someone else, you are in effect a slave to that person, because they are responsible for you, and thus in a way, your will is subservient to theirs, because to defy their will is to bite the hand that feeds you. The use of violence to correct an unruly slave is done in the interest of preserving that symbiotic relationship, which often comes to the benefit of the slave.

When a child is spanked, the goal is to preserve that symbiotic relationship between child and parent so that the child does not go and do something that causes direct and irreparable harm to that relationship (like getting himself killed). That is a consequence that spanking seeks to prevent. It is done in the interest of the child, and not in the interest of satisfying parental anger.

You can't mock this "wall of text learning" as merely a hippie dippie thing because many people actually TAKE THE TIME, like I do, to parent their offspring vs. finding the most immediate resolution to what could be very productive teaching moments. Instead you will be remembered as the parent who beat them when it came to this or that. That's how I remember my father. Not as the man who helped guide me to be a 2-Time High School football All-American, but the asshole who beat me when I didn't execute assignments properly or protect my siblings enough.
Like freaking clockwork, every single person I've encountered that argues against spanking has had a parent that misused it. I'm sorry you had to go through an experience like that, but I think that forbidding spanking outright is like banning gorilla glue because people put it in their hair.

To teachable moments, I say this: embrace the power of AND.

You are shutting off one neural pathway of healthy growth, understanding of misbehavior and replacing it with a negative neural pathway that if not controlled will present them with legal ramifications in the future, as adults, because they will not have that empathy or sympathies that needs to be tied to their actions. If a beating is all they get for their transgressions then the sky is the limit for what transgressions they are capable of.
If you feel like what you're doing right now is in any way a short cut instead of a long cut then you will be arresting their development for future coping and resolution skills that they should have been taught as kids, by you, they're trusted guardian.
Spanking is supposed to shock a stubborn neural pathway into becoming receptive to growth and understanding.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
It's fascinating to me, the psychology behind whether or not we grow up to resent our parents for spanking us. My two siblings and I were all spanked if our smart little butts deserved it. Which, by the way, was rarely. NONE of the three of us hold any type of resentment towards our parents.

My husband was spanked as well. Same story. No resentment; and he's a responsible, contributing member of society.

For what it's worth, my ex-husband was never spanked. He had a permissive dad who tried to be his friend. He's now a heroin addict who's been in and out of jail for 12 years and just had his arm amputated for a needle-induced infection. Coincidence? You be the judge.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
The flawed men in this thread boggles my mind. I offered you concrete advice based on years of counseling and scientific studies( although I can't spoon feed you here, go search, as most parents do) and now you're telling me I'm in the wrong. Got it.

I can offer nothing else to you men and women who feel physical punishment is more of "doing your kids a favor now versus the law later" mentality.
Godspeed to you and your kids. To each their own.
I have to continue to raise my kids in a broken world, a world whose beat kids will have to interact with my un-beat kids.
They'll probably be asking you to stay at my house vs. going home to their punishment dungeon.
The scars you inflict now will determine if your kids give up on you and/or stuff you in a nursing home when you're older.
Thanks, Parents.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Get a load of the liberals in this thread.
Children are slaves. Everybody is a slave, therefore what I do as a parent is more correct than not. The coping mechanisms needed to reach such a far reaching conclusion is astounding. It's like a non-conclusion.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
The flawed men in this thread boggles my mind. I offered you concrete advice based on years of counseling and scientific studies( although I can't spoon feed you here, go search, as most parents do) and now you're telling me I'm in the wrong. Got it.

I can offer nothing else to you men and women who feel physical punishment is more of "doing your kids a favor now versus the law later" mentality.
Godspeed to you and your kids. To each their own.
I have to continue to raise my kids in a broken world, a world whose beat kids will have to interact with my un-beat kids.
They'll probably be asking you to stay at my house vs. going home to their punishment dungeon.
The scars you inflict now will determine if your kids give up on you and/or stuff you in a nursing home when you're older.
Thanks, Parents.
Surely you know this is a false dichotomy? My son, who is now 11, has probably received five or six spankings in his entire life; the last of which took place probably half a decade ago. There's a whole universe of middle ground between "beat kids" and "un-beat kids".
 
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