Spanking Children as a form of discipline

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Nobody's saying that you're supposed to continue spanking your kids when they're older. As has been said earlier in this thread, the point of spanking is to make the child not need to be spanked anymore. When the child is at the point that they can work a month to make the money to repair something they broke, they're most likely past that point.

Why is spanking such a misrepresented concept? Every damned time someone argues against spanking, they make it sound like parents are going to town on their children with nine-tails. And then there's this person saying that spanking is bad because the butt is erogenous, in spite of the fact that the butt is one of the more well-cushioned parts of the bodies and is designed to withstand impacts, such as when children do the thing where they drop down from standing straight onto their butts on the floor.


That's called understanding consequences, genius!


My own parents tried this with me. It didn't work. They ended up having to resort to corporeal punishments. I just nodded along to the lectures and then went back to doing what I was doing before. I was getting more emotional reward out of having fun misbehaving than I was getting emotionally penalized. The stakes weren't high enough for me to not press my luck.


Yes, they effectively are. You're a slave yourself, too. You live in the United States. You probably work under an employer too. What's one more layer of slavery?

Also, one of the defining qualities of a slave is that the slaveowner is generally responsible for the provisions of subsistence. Sounds like a child to me. The Bible even makes a comparison between being a child and being a slave:

A child is effectively the same thing as a slave, except that the child is expected to gain freedom as he ages. Your emotional outburst about children being free-willed and not slaves is a product of modern American culture, not of truth.


Spanking is supposed to shock a stubborn neural pathway into becoming receptive to growth and understanding.
Yikes, I must have triggered the European liberal hard.
I gave an honest opinion and you call me the emotional outburst person? Sure.
Spanking is "supposed to" is different than "what it does". You traumatize your own flesh and blood so you can "make them" learn lessons and if they don't understand it then they will go on to learn it the hard way?
What is wrong with you and this logic, my man?

You set them up for a cycle of abuse, whereby if they're not being abused then they must be doing something wrong, or worse inflicting that abuse on others, like bad cops do or the HR manager that fucks over all the men and women in a company.

You set them on bad tracks, for life. Then they have to pay out of their own pocket to visit the Therapy Jew to fix what should have been prevented in the 1st place. You're wasting their time already. Give up spanking and apply yourself. For their sake.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Absolute conflation here; intellectually dishonest.

Spanking is not the same as "beating." See above.
You know what I mean. Grammar police, much?
We all know the thread we were on and the context of that, was spanking.
Tomato tomatoe.

Triggering the people who hit their kids makes me feel like you would choose violence to get your point across to someone like me were we to disagree on things face to face. Think about that.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
Yikes, I must have triggered the European liberal hard.
I gave an honest opinion and you call me the emotional outburst person? Sure.
Spanking is "supposed to" is different than "what it does". You traumatize your own flesh and blood so you can "make them" learn lessons and if they don't understand it then they will go on to learn it the hard way?
What is wrong with you and this logic, my man?

You set them up for a cycle of abuse, whereby if they're not being abused then they must be doing something wrong, or worse inflicting that abuse on others, like bad cops do or the HR manager that fucks over all the men and women in a company.

You set them on bad tracks, for life. Then they have to pay out of their own pocket to visit the Therapy Jew to fix what should have been prevented in the 1st place. You're wasting their time already. Give up spanking and apply yourself. For their sake.
I see that your childhood experience was extreme. My childhood experience with spanking was mild. I am assuming that Elipe's experience was mild as well. I don't think anyone here is condoning a child being beaten. I agree that (from what you've told us) you were abused. I can see how that would lead to you having the strong opinions that you have on this topic.
 

Kitty Tantrum

Woodpecker
Woman
You know what I mean. Grammar police, much?
We all know the thread we were on and the context of that, was spanking.
Tomato tomatoe.

Triggering the people who hit their kids makes me feel like you would choose violence to get your point across to someone like me were we to disagree on things face to face. Think about that.
I know exactly what you mean, even if you would rather backpedal than own it. You are engaging in conflation - insinuating that any parent who hits their child in any way is "beating" them, causing them trauma and emotional harm in addition to pain, suffering, injury, etc.

If you were not actually conflating these two things in your mind, I think you would realize how silly it is to suggest that a swat on the butt causes some kind of irreversible trauma.

I'm not pro-spanking, as I already said - I disagree with the way many parents do it, and it wasn't appropriate for my kids.

But your aggro-emotional accusations seem to be based on an assumption of behavior ("beating," "breaking") that is drastically different from what anyone here is suggesting is appropriate.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
I see that your childhood experience was extreme. My childhood experience with spanking was mild. I am assuming that Elipe's experience was mild as well. I don't think anyone here is condoning a child being beaten. I agree that (from what you've told us) you were abused. I can see how that would lead to you having the strong opinions that you have on this topic.
Any day you choose to inflict punishment on a smaller less capable less understanding being is a sad day.
There should be no justifying just what is tolerable and what isn't.
All those slippery slopes is how we got to this dumpster fire society in the 1st place. Tolerance gains on itself and before you know it you too will be in an abusive cycle, long ago throwing caution to the wind because "it wasn't that bad".

Of course I have a strong opinion on this and not for your reasons stated. I got over my trauma in my early twenties, that ship sailed to better waters.
I just know that instinctually beating humans who are 50% your own dna and your family is wrong. Nothing will ever dissuade me of this.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
I know exactly what you mean, even if you would rather backpedal than own it. You are engaging in conflation - insinuating that any parent who hits their child in any way is "beating" them, causing them trauma and emotional harm in addition to pain, suffering, injury, etc.

If you were not actually conflating these two things in your mind, I think you would realize how silly it is to suggest that a swat on the butt causes some kind of irreversible trauma.

I'm not pro-spanking, as I already said - I disagree with the way many parents do it, and it wasn't appropriate for my kids.

But your aggro-emotional accusations seem to be based on an assumption of behavior ("beating," "breaking") that is drastically different from what anyone here is suggesting is appropriate.
Kitty, you're using logical fallacies by trying to point out that I'm being conflating or backpedaling.
This is double talking. Modal scope fallacy.

Everyone knows the context I was using.
If you end up in a court of law for hitting or "spanking" your kids because Jane doe at the park turned you in you cannot then go into that court and say it was spanking or "teaching a lesson" when trying to justify your actions. The courts and the laws consider spanking abuse! No court will take your side and say "oh well thats how it used to be your right!". Nope. Your have committed a criminal act as a person of authority to your kids. Enjoy your jail stint.
And here I am saying I have and will continue to parent without abuse just because I apply 100% effort for my offspring and family and I'm somehow wrong or misusing words?
You're getting lost in the context.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
Kitty, you're using logical fallacies by trying to point out that I'm being conflating or backpedaling.
This is double talking. Modal scope fallacy.

Everyone knows the context I was using.
If you end up in a court of law for hitting or "spanking" your kids because Jane doe at the park turned you in you cannot then go into that court and say it was spanking or "teaching a lesson" when trying to justify your actions. The courts and the laws consider spanking abuse! No court will take your side and say "oh well thats how it used to be your right!". Nope. Your have committed a criminal act as a person of authority to your kids. Enjoy your jail stint.
And here I am saying I have and will continue to parent without abuse just because I apply 100% effort for my offspring and family and I'm somehow wrong or misusing words?
You're getting lost in the context.
Spanking is legal. In all 50 states as far as I know.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Spanking is legal but what's legal and what can be prosecuted are two different things.
All of society is now brainwashed to report everything to the totalitarian government.
Prosecutors have made careers of prosecuting parents. Nothing new here.

Some people will just learn lessons the old fashioned style. The hard way.
 

Kitty Tantrum

Woodpecker
Woman
Spanking is legal but what's legal and what can be prosecuted are two different things.
All of society is now brainwashed to report everything to the totalitarian government.
I certainly don't make my parenting decisions based on what I'm afraid Karen will report me for.

Granted, I don't spank my kids either, but...

If I operated based on that kind of fear, I could never even teach my kids to question the holocaust.

Is the argument that any and all spanking is horribly traumatic for children - even simply bare/open hand on clothed bottom?

Or is the argument that we shouldn't do anything as parents that might get us in trouble with the woke gestapo?
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
Spanking is legal but what's legal and what can be prosecuted are two different things.
All of society is now brainwashed to report everything to the totalitarian government.
Prosecutors have made careers of prosecuting parents. Nothing new here.

Some people will just learn lessons the old fashioned style. The hard way.
Welp. I'm glad my days of parenting small children are behind me, then.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Is the argument that any and all spanking is horribly traumatic for children - even simply bare/open hand on clothed bottom?
Based on brain wave studies, yes, hitting a human being is traumatic. Billions & trillions of neurons are affected by everything a child senses and experiences. Any form of physicality imprints on these neurons. Now do you want a good imprint or a bad imprint?
All I was saying is I don't hit or spank my kids.
Do anything you want, I'm not attacking you morally. I'm offering my input as to the validity of just what that standard of "discipline" does to kids. This wasn't personal. I was being communicative and I feel the message came and went just as swiftly.
Choose to believe it or discard it at your own peril.

And Yes, Luna, parenting IS a lot harder nowadays, but only if you're a public spanker. Schools now have therapists that hone in on kids to determine if they're experiencing adverse family life at home and then stick their nose somewhere it doesn't belong.
Big government is everywhere and highly overreaching.
 

Feyoder

Kingfisher
Don't beat or "spank" your children. I was beaten and spanked rather excessively. It is a scar that will never heal (even now that I'm relatively old).

Don't do it. Especially for expedient reasons. You are lazy, brutal and stupid--and you're passing this lesson on to your children. Be careful with the sapling if you want an oak.

I thank estraudi for bringing some sense and maturity to this discussion.
 

estraudi

Pelican
Gold Member
Jeez, you'll dissect everything. How fun.

"ALL schools now have therapists that hone in on kids to determine if they're experiencing adverse family life at home and then stick their nose somewhere it doesn't belong".
This "therapist" sometimes doesn't even carry the title "therapist" but maybe "liaison" "chauffer" and other catchy names.
You're assuming everybody has home schooled kids. Millions of Americans send their kids to public schools that are otherwise very upstanding families.
The trick is to de-program them or point out the degeneracy in their studies if it so exists so that they know they're being tricked into believing this or that mistaken belief. Sometimes and more often than not the parents are the ones ingraining mistaken beliefs.
Parenting never takes a break when raising a better generation of humans.
 

Kitty Tantrum

Woodpecker
Woman
You're assuming everybody has home schooled kids.
This is what Scott Adams would call a hallucination. I actually DON'T assume that, and there's nothing in my statement to suggest I do.

:confused:

You are correct that school therapists, counselors, liaisons - whatever you want to call them - are mostly there to stick their noses where they don't belong. Majority are there to support the indoctrination agenda, even if it means using their credentials to undermine the parent(s) role/relationship with the child. Many are there to funnel vulnerable children into various avenues of exploitation. Many a student walks into the school therapists office for "help" and walks out with new demons instead.

You judge all parents for hitting/spanking - seemingly no matter the context, it all gets lumped in with "beating." We're all doing it wrong and will have to "learn the hard way."

But you want a pass for shipping your kids off to the public indoctrination camps? Even though you know that doing so NECESSITATES "de-programming" and mitigation of exposure to degeneracy?

Nahhhhh, I stand by what I said: sending your kids to public school is worse than spanking.
 

Starlight

Woodpecker
Woman
The only times that I've been tempted to spank is after she is deliberately being defiant regardless of other methods being used (taking things away, redirecting behavior, time outs). One example is that she gets in moods where she attacks her infant brother hitting him on the head multiple times (I'm close enough that I can come stop it within 30 seconds but it's still a problem that she purposefully does it and knows it's wrong). She isn't napping anymore although she is a kid that still needs it and I've tried everything and I can't force her to nap (but I make her stay in her room for quiet time) so I think some of this would be resolved if she'd just sleep more. Another issue is kicking/banging on the door when she used to just play in her room during quiet time. She purposefully destroys books, rips paint out of the wall, etc. Sometimes flings herself in the wall and then cries because she hurt herself...if I take the books away then she's more bored. She also won't potty train with poop. Just poops her pants even though she has no problem peeing on the potty...

It's just kind of a catch 22 where I am feeling like maybe these natural consequences (I don't feel like she understands them at this age either) are going to make her end up hurting herself more than just spanking. If she isn't fully potty trained soon I'll have to pull her from a half day program that she loves. I feel like that is more cruel. I think I really don't want to spank for myself as it makes me sad but if it actually worked to help her, I would do it. I just asked a friend of mine who is the only person I've seen admit to spanking and she says it isn't working for her boy, lol so it would kind of be a bummer to do that for nothing!

I definitely praise her a lot! And I have had my angry moments in the past with cleaning up poop, but now I just make her "help me" and unlike every other child mine isn't fazed by me making her clean up her messes. We do joke around and have a lot of laughter, which we didn't have as much when I was a kid and I think that's important. I am halfway between losing my mind and 'embracing the suck." My infant has gotten easier now at least.

I also don't tell kids they are "bad." I do use bad about dangerous situations "Running in the street is BAD." "Scorpions are BAD and OUCHIES" (just enough until she gets older to explain the nuances here lol). I've caught my husband saying that and had to talk to him. He probably learned bad habits from his lousy parents that I have to correct.
My heart really goes out to you. What a challenging time. Your examples remind me A LOT (almost exactly) of my son when he stopped napping. My sweet little boy turned into an absolute NIGHTMARE child lol. I had to get creative to help him get some rest (even if he didn’t actually sleep). We stopped having “nap time” and started having “quiet time” (like you do, although I think 1.5-2 hours is probably too long) where I tuck him in bed and he didn’t have to sleep but just lay there and rest while I put on an audio book or some soothing music. Other times, I’d make a little bed on the couch for him or in my bed and let him watch some quiet shows. Most times he didn’t sleep but occasionally he would (little victories!). I think changing up your nap/quiet time routine might help some of her negative behaviors that seem to happen during that time.

Bedtime was awful for us too because sometimes he would be sooo tired and have a total meltdown. I would have to restrain him in his bed until he would give up and let himself fall asleep. His meltdowns got shorter and shorter until eventually they were just gone. We started putting him to bed earlier (sometimes 6:30!) and he would sleep for like 14 hours lol. That helped a lot. I would also give him an ultimatum: he could go to bed the “nice way” or the “hard way” but either way he was going to bed. The nice way was with him being calm, easily getting into his pj’s, a nice long story of his choice, and some calm music or audio book to fall asleep to; the hard way was if he had a meltdown, couldn’t control himself, and ended up with me keeping him in his bed. It wasn’t easy but he eventually learned to choose the “nice way” :D

As for your daughter hitting the baby, this isn’t abnormal behavior. I’m not saying it’s ok, but that some children do this when they’re having a hard time adjusting to a new baby sibling and could be feeling jealous or insecure, etc. My son used to do similar things to his little sister like he’d walk next to her and “accidentally” bump her over or say “I hate you” to her. What helped was giving him some extra love, hugs, and snuggles. I made an effort to give him some extra special attention. Maybe, if dad or grandma can watch the baby, once a week you could take your daughter to do something special, just the two of you.

For potty training for poop, when my kids had accidents I always had them help clean up too. I also did a simple reward system (some people do charts but I think they make it over complicated) where if they went poop on the potty, they would get a jelly bean or two right afterward. This created a simple positive reward system that was easy for my kids to understand: “I go poop on the potty, I get candy.” Kids will do almost anything for candy lol. But they only got candy when the pooped on the potty.

Also, some kids are really sensitive to Red dye #40 and when they eat it they kind of go crazy. There was a young family at my church whose daughter was having real behavior issues like biting and scratching kids at preschool and pretty much being out of control. Turns out, she was sensitive to red #40. Once her parents eliminated it from her diet, her behavior became much more stable.

So all in all, I think switching up your quiet time routine, giving her some extra attention, and checking her diet might help with the negative behaviors. I know it’s hard but stick to your guns. They do eventually grow out of it. Believe it or not, there will be a time in the future when you look back at these moments with fondness and will actually laugh about how your daughter used to rip paint off the wall or how she used to hate her little brother but now they’re best friends :)

(Edit: sorry for the wall of text lol)
 
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Elipe

Kingfisher
Based on brain wave studies, yes, hitting a human being is traumatic. Billions & trillions of neurons are affected by everything a child senses and experiences. Any form of physicality imprints on these neurons. Now do you want a good imprint or a bad imprint?
It's just hilarious to see how triggered you're getting over neurons being imprinted while calling us liberals. If anything, if there's one thing liberals tend to do, it's attempting to "min-max" neural patterns. The problem is that in the process of "scientifically" min-maxing neural patterns, you're turning out children that will not adjust well to a chaotic, fallen world. "Science" says that kids need to be handled with kiddy gloves, they need to be put into bubbles that protect them from each and everything bad that could happen to them. That is how you get liberals, man!

Don't you realize that the same "science" that says that spanking is traumatic is the same "science" that says that not raising your boys as trannies is traumatic?

Meanwhile, us right-wing people who got spanked by our parents are telling you, this is what our parents did, this is what their parents did, and so on all the way back, and it ended up with us people who are basically the last people in the world that oppose Globohomo. We are the remaining bastion of sanity, and you're telling us that our parents raised us wrong because they slapped us on the butt as a last resort for bad behavior?

It really does sound like your father did a number on you. I'm sorry, I understand that's a hard thing for you to bring up, and I understand why you're so... well, triggered, by the concept of spanking. But we're here to tell you, spanking works when used correctly. We are the success stories.

But I do want you to think about the fact that you're on the anti-spanking side and calling us liberals. Think about the incongruency of that. Liberals have a reputation for opposing spanking.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
It's just hilarious to see how triggered you're getting over neurons being imprinted while calling us liberals. If anything, if there's one thing liberals tend to do, it's attempting to "min-max" neural patterns. The problem is that in the process of "scientifically" min-maxing neural patterns, you're turning out children that will not adjust well to a chaotic, fallen world. "Science" says that kids need to be handled with kiddy gloves, they need to be put into bubbles that protect them from each and everything bad that could happen to them. That is how you get liberals, man!

Don't you realize that the same "science" that says that spanking is traumatic is the same "science" that says that not raising your boys as trannies is traumatic?

Meanwhile, us right-wing people who got spanked by our parents are telling you, this is what our parents did, this is what their parents did, and so on all the way back, and it ended up with us people who are basically the last people in the world that oppose Globohomo. We are the remaining bastion of sanity, and you're telling us that our parents raised us wrong because they slapped us on the butt as a last resort for bad behavior?

It really does sound like your father did a number on you. I'm sorry, I understand that's a hard thing for you to bring up, and I understand why you're so... well, triggered, by the concept of spanking. But we're here to tell you, spanking works when used correctly. We are the success stories.

But I do want you to think about the fact that you're on the anti-spanking side and calling us liberals. Think about the incongruency of that. Liberals have a reputation for opposing spanking.
I thought the same thing. Had he called us fascists, I could have thought, "meh"; but the liberal nametag simply left me confused.
 
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