Supplements and foods that may DECREASE testosterone

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
When it comes to maintaining healthy testosterone, there are four areas to focus on:

1. Things that INCREASE testosterone
2. Things that DECREASE testosterone
3. Things that INCREASE estrogenic effects
4. Things that DECREASE estrogenic effects

Most of us here are probably focused on the first area, neglecting the other three.

For six months, I have been adding flax seed to my home-baked bread. Turns out that flax is a stronger phytoestrogen than soy, though a different type. Phytoestrogens seem to confer a lot of health benefits, especially to the cardiovascular system, but it is still classified as an endocrine disruptor that mimics the activity of estrogen (though does not increase estrogen levels directly). The image I have of a man who consumes a lot of phytoestrogens is a Japanese man who eats mostly vegetables and lives to 100, though is not my ideal of masculinity.

I also have been drinking beer more lately, which has phytoestrogens in the hops.

Cruciferous vegetables, such as broccoli, kale, and brussel sprouts, have phytochemicals that block estrogen production. In addition, I have read that fish oil supplementation may have a negative outcome for testosterone.

There isn't a lot of data on what individual foods do to testosterone levels, so you may have to experiment on your own.

When it comes to increasing testosterone, one overlooked strategy may be to simply avoid consuming phytoestrogens while consuming estrogen-blocking foods.
 

Hypno

Crow
Good thread topic.

At the risk of hijacking your thread, try to keep things in perspective. The worst thing about bread is not the flax oil you use but the carbs and gluten. As you get older, you'll need to dial those back significantly to maintain good health and body fat percentage.

Fish oil is beneficial for you and may be mildly estrogenic. In contrast, you can get many of the benefits of flax oil (Omega 3s) from fish oil or from fish. So it might make sense to keep taking fish oil, or eating fish, but not the flax seed oil.

As for beer, its slightly estrogenic. Also, a lot of wheat in the U.S. is also GMO. Try liquor or red wine or just cutting back.

I guess what I am trying to say is being overweight or in poor health is probably more sapping to your testosterone than a small amount of fish oil or flax seed oil here and there.

Making some of these changes to your diet or drinking habits can be difficult, in part because the bacteria in your gut demand them. There is a great thread on this forum about prebiotics, which are food for your good gut bacteria, which helped me. A lot of people take probiotics, which are just beneficial bacteria, without taking prebiotics. Prebiotics are basically food that your body can't digest - plant fiber mostly - that are eaten or fermented by your good bacteria inside your colon. By supporting them, they crowd out the bad bacteria the way a healthy lawn crowds out weeds. This can have the effect of reducing your cravings for wheat and other junk foods.

Continuing the theme of your thread, regular antibiotics, while not estrogenic per se, can screw up the balance in your gut and make you sluggish, lethargic, craving junk food, etc. Ditto for binging on alcohol.

Also, soy products such as tofu increase estrogenic effects. Ditto for the drug Comid, which some guys take instead of TRT.
 

Mycelium

Robin
Gold Member
Try using amaranth, spelt flour, or kamut to make bread. (in that order from most healthiest)

I like broccoli except for the fact that it's man-made.
 

Monty_Brogan

Woodpecker
Gold Member
The Beast1 said:
We're quickly coming to the point where all men should consider going onto HRT once they've had enough children.

When it comes to estrogenic compounds, it's death by a thousand cuts.


Fuck that HRT shit. It's a crutch for men who don't want to put in work, plain and simple.

Eat lots of meat, easy on the carbs -not a fan of zero carbs, and sprint -or high intensity rowing or biking. No distance running either. Squat deep 2-3 times a week with some Olympic lifts thrown in.

That's all a man needs.
 

Valentine

Kingfisher
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
Monty_Brogan said:
The Beast1 said:
We're quickly coming to the point where all men should consider going onto HRT once they've had enough children.

When it comes to estrogenic compounds, it's death by a thousand cuts.


Fuck that HRT shit. It's a crutch for men who don't want to put in work, plain and simple.

Eat lots of meat, easy on the carbs -not a fan of zero carbs, and sprint -or high intensity rowing or biking. No distance running either. Squat deep 2-3 times a week with some Olympic lifts thrown in.

That's all a man needs.

This is both off-topic and incorrect.

Our environment and lifestyles involve us coming into contact with xenoestrogens on a regular basis and there's plenty of data showing that average T levels are getting lower with each generation e.g. this study.

There's no avoiding going on TRT these days, it's just a matter of when you get on it.

On topic: the biggest ones to avoid are soy and xenoestrogens eg plastics from packaged food, water, cosmetics etc. Eating fresh produce, local farm food and having a reverse osmosis filtration system goes a long way.
 

Kratomite

 
Banned
Worrying about the hormonal impact of the foods you eat seems like a good way to raise cortisol levels thus lowering your test levels in the process.
 

kinjutsu

Pelican
A scary thing i recently noticed was how many everyday food products contain soy. Stuff like salad dressing, Hershey's chocolate bars, crackers etc.
I've started to scale back in what "extras" i buy when grocery shopping
 
Hm - pure nutrients, vitamins and minerals should not have any negative effects at all.

What I mean by that is that you can take all vitamins, minerals (except iron which should not be taken as a man at all) and nutrients.

But of course if you take for example Omega 3 supplements with certain oils - GMO soybean oil, then of course it may have other effects, but that is just based on a specific set of foods.

For example - I am taking Lecithin and avoid lecithin from soy, but pick sunflower lecithin. You pay only a bit extra.

There are a multitude of things that impact your body negatively and should be avoided - some at the top of list at all cost:

+ Artificial Sweeteners - Splenda, Sucralose, Aspartame etc.
+ MSG - taste enhancers - KFC secret ingredient
+ most vegetable cooking oil at higher temperatures - use coconut oil, clarified butter, lard instead
+ soy ingredients - soy lecithin found in many foods, but they are using it also as a regular in feedlot foods - especially chicken and pork is thus highly tainted with stuff like that - not only the antibiotics that those animals have to take
+ HFC high fructose corn syrup - highly negative for your body, impacts your hormonal household like most other of the stuff on the list - way more negative than white sugar which ais also not healthy, but HFC is a couple steps up on the scale
+ avoid cheap chicken, cheap pork, cheap salmon - switch rather to beef which is still relatively good in Europe even if bought cheap, otherwise organic meat is not that expensive - better eat less of it, but higher quality (in EE you can buy a pound of organic beef for 5-6$, in the UK it is closer to 45$)

Aside from that sticking to the known rules of nutrient density (easily achieved via good supplements) combined with low calorie intake and avoidance of the list of foods above - then you will be fine. That means in return that you probably cannot eat in many restaurants often, then so be it.
 

roberto

Pelican
Gold Member
Hypno said:
Good thread topic.

As for beer, its slightly estrogenic. Also, a lot of wheat in the U.S. is also GMO. Try liquor or red wine or just cutting back.

I agree, an excellent thread topic. Great to see some self improvement threads making a comeback after a rollercoaster of a political year.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe whiskey is estrogenic. This was the main factor in my switching to vodka. Before going dry.
 
roberto said:
Hypno said:
Good thread topic.

As for beer, its slightly estrogenic. Also, a lot of wheat in the U.S. is also GMO. Try liquor or red wine or just cutting back.

I agree, an excellent thread topic. Great to see some self improvement threads making a comeback after a rollercoaster of a political year.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe whiskey is estrogenic. This was the main factor in my switching to vodka. Before going dry.

giphy.gif


I don't drink that often and even I did - good scotch is as good as organic compared to a toxic brew like most current-year beer. Vodka gives me headache. I have tasted high-end triple-plus-distilled vodka and that is much better, but it still does not equal the mellow buzz that Scotch gives you.

There is no reason to get anal. Testosterone levels were probably dropping in the recent generations not due to a over-consumption of Whiskey. Even naturally brewed German beer has utterly different repercussions than if you drink some kind of Duff-crap.
 
Mikestar said:
Is protein powder which contains soy lecithin (most brands) bad for you?

Brother - avoid most supplement brands like the cancer-causing products they are.

Most have stuff in it far more toxic than GMO soy lecithin like sucralose (with big text on it that says: "Now Aspartame free" - sucralose is more toxic than aspartame - heh).

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-whey-protein-certified-organic-natural-1-lb-pwdr

25$ for one pound is seriously not that big of a sacrifice if you avoid cancer-in-a-box.

Good companies:

NOW Foods
Swanson - pick their more expensive versions, they have some soy occasionally added in the low-low-price range, but it is a good company - you would not see non-working versions of vitamins or truly highly toxic ingredients added

I take organic WHEY protein powder by a local European organic producer, but would likely buy NOW Foods in the US. I take NOW Foods for multi as well as SWANSON.

Also by the way- bodybuilding magazines regularly test protein powder producers and NOW Foods usually comes at the top with 99%+ pure protein while other big pharma owned & much bigger companies reach occasionally levels of 60-70% - rest being something else than protein.
 

Hypno

Crow
I can't echo Zelcorpion's comments enough. Aspartame and MSG are serious poisons that you need to eliminate asap. This should be first. Next thing should be to reduce processed food as much as possible.

If you are having a smoothie every morning instead of McDonalds, and put some protein powder in it that has some soy, in the scheme of things that is a giant step forward and a very tiny step backwards. If you put some aspartame or MSG in it, that is a huge step backwards, maybe worse than McDonalds.

If you put some beets in it from a can, realize the can has BPA which mimicks estrogen. The BPA leaches the most from acidic vegetables like tomatoes, so get those in the wax cartons or glass jars. But having some canned beets in the morning even with some BPA is way better than an egg McMuffin or toast.

Once you establish some healthy habbits, then refine and improve. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, or keep you from making incremental progress.
 
As for Flaxseeds - I took this a lot at one time, but it personally caused me some minor digestive issues.

Also even on a casual research it seems that flaxseeds are not truly ideal for Omega 3s and they do mimic estrogen just like soy - even if organic:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/141046-flax-seed-bad-side-effects/

Hormonal Effects

Flax seed may have estrogen-like effects, and women taking flax seed daily may experience changes in menstruation, according to the NIH. The NIH advises that women with hormone-related health conditions be cautious about using flax seed. These conditions include endometriosis, polycystic ovary syndrome, uterine fibroids, and breast, ovarian or uterine cancer. Pregnant women also should not consume supplemental flax seed, as it could stimulate menstruation or cause other hormonal effects that might be harmful to the developing baby.

http://alsearsmd.com/2010/11/more-fake-food-do-not-fall-for-the-flaxseed-lie/

There are studies in the links, but it seems truly to be an estrogen mimicker and has the wrong kinds of Omega 3s in it.

Contrary to that doctor one cannot currently recommend cod liver oil due to the toxic load of such products.

Aside from some rare oils, nuts, fish and eggs one could also take the rather expensive high quality krill oil supplements:


http://krilloil.mercola.com/

If you take even 1000mg per day, then it will cost you more than whey protein powder for the month. But even then I know that some people have trouble with digestion of that. So I guess that you will have to find your own foods or supplements for that according to your makeup and wallet - nuts in high quantity would get you there as well, but are even more costly nowadays.

Flaxseeds however should better be avoided - especially if you are a man.
 

reliquary

Woodpecker
Love this thread, there was previously a thread tangentially related which taught me a lot and I contributed to. I have now studied this extensively, because when I first started cutting estrogen and naturally boosting test the changes on my body were immense. My parents gave me soymilk and tofu at a very young age, which I believe was a huge reason I became extremely overweight with bitch tits throughout middle and even high school. Hopefully my additions will be useful to others.

When I first tried lifting and exercising after discovering RVF, I hit a very low plateau from which I couldn't advance. I firmly believe this was the result of estrogen dominance preventing further weight loss or muscle gain. Now on a regular supplementation regimen, my fat has melted away and my gains from properly lifting have been increased substantially.

I take a cocktail of supplements specifically for this hormone balance.
Source Naturals Calcium D-Glucarate
Evolved Diindolylmethane
Swanson Indole-3-Carbinol

Calcium-d-Glucarate (CDG) is a natural substance produced by all mammals, including humans. Small amounts are also found in fruits and vegetables. Early humans were able to get enough calcium-d-glucarate from their own production since they ate relatively low amounts of toxins and lived in a clean environment. As toxin exposure has increased, humans need more calcium-d-glucarate to excrete the extra toxins.

High levels of beta-glucuronide increase the number of estrogen receptors. This means estrogen that would have been excreted is now able to bind to more receptors. This can cause increased tissue growth, cancer, and even man boobs. In one study, calcium-d-glucarate was able to reduce the number of estrogen receptors by 48 percent. It’s also been shown to lower serum estrogen levels by 23 percent.

Here is the CDG research, also as a cancer fighting agent and liver detox promoter.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1534735403002002005

DIM was detectable in thyroid tissue, serum, and urine of patients after 14 days of supplementation. Urine analyses revealed that DIM modulated estrogen metabolism in patients with TPD. There was an increase in the ratio of 2-hydroxyestrones (C-2) to 16α-hydroxyestrone (C-16), consistent with antiestrogenic activity that results in more of C-2 product compared with C-16.

Our preclinical thyroid cell culture models strongly implicated the role of estradiol (12) and indicate that DIM is an indirect modulator of estradiol-mediated mitotic activity. Our data suggest that DIM enhances estrogen metabolism in TPD patients and can potentially serve as an antiestrogenic dietary supplement to help reduce the risk of developing TPD. The fact that DIM is detected in thyroid tissue implicates that it can manifest its antiestrogenic activity in situ to modulate TPD.

Here is the research on DIM:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048776/

Studies increasingly indicate that dietary indole-3-carbinol (I3C) prevents the development of estrogen-enhanced cancers including breast, endometrial and cervical cancers. Epidemiological, laboratory, animal and translational studies support the efficacy of I3C. Whereas estrogen increases the growth and survival of tumors, I3C causes growth arrest and increased apoptosis and ameliorates the effects of estrogen.

Here is the research on I3C:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12840226

These three chemicals are important not only for their reduction of estrogen through metabolizing it, and allowing the body to flush it, but also as aromatase inhibitors. Aromatase is an enzyme which metabolizes testosterone into estrogen. Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. So if you start to gain weight, as I did, you will be sucked into a downward spiral. Increased adipose tissue will cause more aromatase activity, further increasing estrogen's dominance and the breakdown of testosterone, making it harder and harder to get fit, get trim, and reverse the trend. Add age and alcohol, and maybe diabetes into the mix, and you have a perfect storm for the epidemic of super low-T beer-belly guys we have in the West.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076004004091
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bi00706a023?journalCode=bichaw

Getting rid of excess estrogen which is absolutely in your body unless you live naturally off the grid in rural New Mexico or something is only the FIRST STEP. The second step is to reduce, as much as possible, the amount of estrogen you are exposed to from chemicals and the environment, which I will discuss in the next post.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Catholic
Gold Member
Zelcorpion said:
Mikestar said:
Is protein powder which contains soy lecithin (most brands) bad for you?

Brother - avoid most supplement brands like the cancer-causing products they are.

Most have stuff in it far more toxic than GMO soy lecithin like sucralose (with big text on it that says: "Now Aspartame free" - sucralose is more toxic than aspartame - heh).

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-whey-protein-certified-organic-natural-1-lb-pwdr

25$ for one pound is seriously not that big of a sacrifice if you avoid cancer-in-a-box.

Good companies:

NOW Foods
Swanson - pick their more expensive versions, they have some soy occasionally added in the low-low-price range, but it is a good company - you would not see non-working versions of vitamins or truly highly toxic ingredients added

I take organic WHEY protein powder by a local European organic producer, but would likely buy NOW Foods in the US. I take NOW Foods for multi as well as SWANSON.

Also by the way- bodybuilding magazines regularly test protein powder producers and NOW Foods usually comes at the top with 99%+ pure protein while other big pharma owned & much bigger companies reach occasionally levels of 60-70% - rest being something else than protein.

I take NOW Whey Protein Isolate, non-organic.

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-whey-protein-isolate-unflavored-5-lb-pwdr

5 lbs for $70.54. You should never buy full price on Swanson since they email so many coupons. Wait for 25% off $75 or more, and that $70.54 becomes $52, for ~$10/lb, close to what you'll pay for ON "Gold Standard" :tard:

I heard on JRE a while ago that whey doesn't need to be organic because it's literally just proteins, nothing bad can be carried in it. As long as the ingredients are clean, you're good.
 

reliquary

Woodpecker
Ok, step 2 is to reduce as much as possible exposure to all sorts of estrogen and terrible chemicals that surround us in daily Western life.

Some of these have already been alluded to by Roosh and others in this thread.

Beer, given the nature of this forum for men, is huge. The trend towards hoppier and hoppier IPAs, double IPAs, etc, is exacerbating this, as the hops are a potent phytoestrogen. Have you ever noticed a guy with a giant 'beer belly'? His other limbs are most likely remarkably pretty normally sized. How the hell does all the weight concentrate in the stomach and hips? This is not your normal obesity through caloric overintake. It is the estrogen concentrating fat deposits where it would be on women, in the right areas for childbirth.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10372741

I have more or less cut beer out all together, drinking it only on very rare occasions, and even then, I go for very light and unhoppy beers. Fuck swilling a 6 pack of Bud or similar crap. Beer in particular is a 1-2 punch because, as you will recall from the previous post, alcohol is a major activator of aromatase which cannibalizes your test and turns it into estrogen, to say nothing of just loading more net estrogen from the hops.

Next up is plastic. I will draw your attention to this study, which found that BPA free is a meaningless commercial marketing slogan to make you think it's safe.

Almost all commercially available plastic products we sampled—independent of the type of resin, product, or retail source—leached chemicals having reliably detectable EA (estrogenic activity), including those advertised as BPA free. In some cases, BPA-free products released chemicals having more EA than did BPA-containing products.

Many plastic products are mischaracterized as being EA free if extracted with only one solvent and not exposed to common-use stresses. However, we can identify existing compounds, or have developed, monomers, additives, or processing agents that have no detectable EA and have similar costs. Hence, our data suggest that EA-free plastic products exposed to common-use stresses and extracted by saline and ethanol solvents could be cost-effectively made on a commercial scale and thereby eliminate a potential health risk posed by most currently available plastic products that leach chemicals having EA into food products.

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1003220/

Estrogenic compounds in plastic are particularly activated by sunlight and heat. When you buy your shitty Dasani water bottle (which is just Atlanta municipal tap water, an entire subject I'll get to next), you're probably drinking tons of estrogen. If you go out for a hike with it, and the sunlight strikes it, the chemical reaction starts to release estrogen into the water. Even if you somehow keep it in shade the whole time, think about the fact that some Coke delivery man just set the pallet out in the sun by the gas station before they took it inside and put it in the fridges.

Bottom line, minimize exposure to plastic, especially as pertains to food and drink. Get a glass or metal bottle for your water, and use Pyrex dishes to store food. Fill your home with metal or glass furniture, decorations, etc. Do not be a retard and microwave plastic containers, or drink/eat things from Styrofoam containers. Canned foods are also usually lined with plastic coating containing BPA. If you see the word phthalate, stay away, it is a xenoestrogenic compound used to give plastic flexibility. Create an environment, at least in your own haven, where you can be as free from these toxins as possible, while minimizing your exposure in the outside world.

Now from the food packaging to the food itself. Commercially raised meat and dairy are contaminated with antibiotics, bovine growth hormones, and of course, estrogen. 85% of the world's soybean crop is processed into meal and vegetable oil, which is used for animal feed. Only 6% of soybeans go directly to human consumption, which should also be a huge no-no. Eat grass fed, free-range, hormone free, and organic whenever and wherever possible.

Fruits, nuts, grains, and vegetables also contain estrogenic compounds because of the insecticide and pesticide residues on them. Thirty out of 37 widely used pesticides tested by the group blocked or mimicked male hormones. Sixteen of the 30 had no known hormonal activity until now, while there was some previous evidence for the other 14, according to the study, published online last Thursday in the scientific journal Environmental Health Perspectives.

None of the 16 pesticides with the newly discovered hormonal activity is included in the EPA’s program, which means they are not currently screened and there are no plans to do so. "Considering all the evidence that human male reproduction is exhibiting troubling secular trends (sperm count and quality, hypospadias, cryptorchidism, testis cancer), this is highly troubling," he said.

Of the tested compounds, the most potent in terms of blocking androgens was the insecticide fenitrothion, an organophosphate insecticide used on orchard fruits, grains, rice, vegetables and other crops.

Others with hormonal activity include fludioxonil, fenhexamid, dimethomorph and imazalil, which are all fungicides. Fungicides are often applied close to harvest, so they are frequently found as residue in food. Some are new compounds which have been used for only a few years.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pesticides-may-block-male-hormones/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138025/

These are the main ones, but notable sources I will briefly mention are cosmetics, shampoos, lotions, soaps, toothpastes which contain parabens or phenoxyethanol. You put this shit right on your skin, and it goes directly into the bloodstream. Unlike the stuff you eat, these can have 10x greater potency without being detoxified by the liver if you ate them.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16097138

Artificial sweeteners and MSG also have potential estrogenic effects, but I have faith that most people on this forum are aware of the many other toxic effects of these compounds, and if you're cutting out processed foods or plastic wrapped prepared foods, you should by all rights be avoiding these too as a byproduct.

For my 3rd and final post on the subject, I will cover my favorite topic of all: water.
 
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