Testosterone injections

jeffreyjerpp

Kingfisher
MichaelWitcoff said:
I didn't start on the Arimidex until a couple weeks of TRT produced absolutely zero effect on my testosterone levels. In fact it went down in that time period, and that's why the PA suggested the Arimidex - because it looked like the testosterone was converting completely into estrogen. My Estradiol is right in the middle of the normal range on this program, or at least it was last time my labs were done.

My point, generally, is that your PA might have no clue what they're talking about, and that the incentives of your TRT clinic are not aligned with the incentives of your health.


Some concerns:

1) You're probably not getting the right kind of estrogen test.
2) Being "middle of the road" on such a test isn't indicative of anything in particular, because you'd need to look at the ratio between androgens (free test and DHT) and estrogen.
3) Again, once a week injections are a big red flag. This sort of injection pattern produce wild side effects because of the sudden, rapid rise in testosterone levels, followed by a crash to 50% of peak levels prior to next injection.
4) Studies indicate that any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone toxic to your brain and blood vessels. They should be avoided like the plague.

Generally speaking, if you are not committed to doing tons and tons of research on your own about TRT, I don't know that I would recommend it.

Here is a good book to start with, in addition to the excellent "More Plates More Dates" YouTube channnel:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1726779688/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
 
I'm pretty sure my PA has that book on his desk. I'll ask him about the aromatase issue you've mentioned, but so far all my lab work has been solid. What studies show that "any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone toxic to your brain and blood vessels?"
 

jeffreyjerpp

Kingfisher
MichaelWitcoff said:
I'm pretty sure my PA has that book on his desk. I'll ask him about the aromatase issue you've mentioned, but so far all my lab work has been solid. What studies show that "any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone toxic to your brain and blood vessels?"

Watch the videos in full.

Any anabolic steroid besides testosterone is neurotoxic to varying degrees:

https://www.ergo-log.com/nandrotest.html

But testosterone itself is not, unless administered with an aromatase inhibitor.

Why is that?

Estrogen mediates androgens, and stops them from attacking blood vessel lining. It's a regulatory mechanism your body uses so that no matter how much testosterone you have, your circulatory, cardiac, and neurological systems are not damaged.

Remove the estrogen and you have disrupted that mechanism, and allowed your blood vessels to begin corroding.

This is why that TRT Doctor I posted earlier in the thread dropped dead suddenly, despite appearing to be ultra healthy for his age.
 
Ok, but nothing you've posted thus far supports your theory that any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone neurotoxic. I don't care what nandrolone does because I'm never going to take it, and yes obviously having extremely low or high estrogen is bad for you - as with anything else in your body. But where is the evidence that using aromatase inhibitors in order to regulate aromatization, even if the Estradiol ends up normal afterwards, makes testosterone bad?
 

jeffreyjerpp

Kingfisher
MichaelWitcoff said:
Ok, but nothing you've posted thus far supports your theory that any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone neurotoxic. I don't care what nandrolone does because I'm never going to take it, and yes obviously having extremely low or high estrogen is bad for you - as with anything else in your body. But where is the evidence that using aromatase inhibitors in order to regulate aromatization, even if the Estradiol ends up normal afterwards, makes testosterone bad?

The first video I posted was literally a detailed breakdown of a study which showed that the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitor made testosterone neurotoxic. Not "my theory", but established science. Go to the 8 minute mark. As the other video explained, you have no way of knowing whether your estrogen is actually "normal" using the testing methodology of most TRT clinics. Those tests are wildly inaccurate, and the clinics don't know or care.

Damage to endothelial lining and brain cells are established side effects of almost all AAS, which estrogen luckily happens to mitigate. Indeed these affects are so pronounced as to induce premature alzheimers:

"Results of the first systematic brain imaging study conducted on long-term users of anabolic-androgenic steroids reveal significant brain structural and functional abnormalities, according to doctors at McLean Hospital."

mcleanhospital.org/news/brain-imaging-study-suggests-long-term-steroid-use-can-lead-significant-brain-structural-and

These are the kinds of changes you are introducing into your brain by using aromatase inhibitors and a once weekly injection schedule.

Enjoy.
 
You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.
 

jeffreyjerpp

Kingfisher
MichaelWitcoff said:
You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

"Some athletes take a form of steroids — known as anabolic-androgenic steroids or just anabolic steroids — to increase their muscle mass and strength. The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...epth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

Evidently you didn't know this, but yes, all testosterone is in fact an anabolic steroid. Perhaps you weren't aware exactly what you are being injected with each week. You might want to consider learning the very most basic things about this topic, given your confusion about what testosterone even is.

I'll assume you didn't watch the video yet, wherein scientists found that test subjects getting testosterone injections exhibited neurotoxicity with the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitors, even with relatively modest amounts of testosterone being injected.

Do whatever you want. I am posting at this point to help anyone else currently on TRT or considering it make a fully informed decision.
 

Ice

Woodpecker
jeffreyjerpp said:
MichaelWitcoff said:
You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

"Some athletes take a form of steroids — known as anabolic-androgenic steroids or just anabolic steroids — to increase their muscle mass and strength. The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...epth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

Evidently you didn't know this, but yes, all testosterone is in fact an anabolic steroid. Perhaps you weren't aware exactly what you are being injected with each week. You might want to consider learning the very most basic things about this topic, given your confusion about what testosterone even is.

I'll assume you didn't watch the video yet, wherein scientists found that test subjects getting testosterone injections exhibited neurotoxicity with the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitors, even with relatively modest amounts of testosterone being injected.

Do whatever you want. I am posting at this point to help anyone else currently on TRT or considering it make a fully informed decision.

Hey Jeffrey,

very helpful information. Thanks a lot for that. But just to clarify: you're saying that any type of aromatase inhibitors is harmful. But when taking testosterone, there can be side effects as a result of too much estrogen (like gyno), right? So what do you suggest doing in that case? Just stop talking testosterone, or decreasing the dosage?

jeffreyjerpp said:
Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

Or are you saying that side effects as a result of too much estrogen are basically impossible if you inject three times per week?
 
When these studies talk about “anabolic steroids” they are referring to synthetic compounds. That said, I did watch the video and found it interesting. I’m not convinced that any amount of AI is harmful since the units used in the video are not the units prescribed by a doctor and I have no clear picture of what that means in practical terms. Regardless, I do appreciate the information and will ask my PA when I see him tomorrow.
 

jeffreyjerpp

Kingfisher
Ice said:
Hey Jeffrey,

very helpful information. Thanks a lot for that. But just to clarify: you're saying that any type of aromatase inhibitors is harmful. But when taking testosterone, there can be side effects as a result of too much estrogen (like gyno), right? So what do you suggest doing in that case? Just stop talking testosterone, or decreasing the dosage?

jeffreyjerpp said:
Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

Or are you saying that side effects as a result of too much estrogen are basically impossible if you inject three times per week?

Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.
 

Ice

Woodpecker
jeffreyjerpp said:
Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.

Thanks a lot Jeffrey, really very helpful.

One question about DHT: so testosterone is converted either into estrogen or DHT? Both happens if the total change in testosterone levels is too big? Is there some kind of ratio in terms of how much estrogen vs. DHT is produced? Or is this random?

So to recap: If the levels of estrogen are too high and cause side-effects, they can be mitigated by small doses of AI until the symptoms stop. And then the testosterone shots can be divided into smaller/more frequent shots. But what about DHT? If side effects occur (like hair loss), what can be done? Apart from taking smaller/more frequent shots? Do small doses of AI also mitigate DHT side effects?
 
Hi All,

I did TRT after test lvls of 400 for 5 months. My testosterone levels shot up to 1700 at the end... I had to take AIs due to estrogen effects. In fact, I had such an issue with estrogen even with the AIs that I had to stop...

I noticed at the highest levels my sex drive was actually lowered, but clarity of thinking was great.

I have been off for 2 months but still have extremely low sex drive... any alternatives other than. Clomid and TRT
 

Emancipator

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Estrogen also has the benefits of being cardio protective and helping with Insulin resistance^^^
I think it gets a bit too much hate, AIs are overused in Blasts (IMO), most useless advice I got was regarding AIs.
Even purely basing it on psychological effects, low E is 10x worse than high E
I can't imagine the effect it has if ran longterm alongside TRT.

There's a reason why women going into a post-menopausal state end up facing a lot more health risks.
 
Ice said:
jeffreyjerpp said:
Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.

Thanks a lot Jeffrey, really very helpful.

One question about DHT: so testosterone is converted either into estrogen or DHT? Both happens if the total change in testosterone levels is too big? Is there some kind of ratio in terms of how much estrogen vs. DHT is produced? Or is this random?

So to recap: If the levels of estrogen are too high and cause side-effects, they can be mitigated by small doses of AI until the symptoms stop. And then the testosterone shots can be divided into smaller/more frequent shots. But what about DHT? If side effects occur (like hair loss), what can be done? Apart from taking smaller/more frequent shots? Do small doses of AI also mitigate DHT side effects?

If I was losing hair I'd run some finasteride.
 
Ice said:
jeffreyjerpp said:
MichaelWitcoff said:
You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

"Some athletes take a form of steroids — known as anabolic-androgenic steroids or just anabolic steroids — to increase their muscle mass and strength. The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...epth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

Evidently you didn't know this, but yes, all testosterone is in fact an anabolic steroid. Perhaps you weren't aware exactly what you are being injected with each week. You might want to consider learning the very most basic things about this topic, given your confusion about what testosterone even is.

I'll assume you didn't watch the video yet, wherein scientists found that test subjects getting testosterone injections exhibited neurotoxicity with the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitors, even with relatively modest amounts of testosterone being injected.

Do whatever you want. I am posting at this point to help anyone else currently on TRT or considering it make a fully informed decision.

Hey Jeffrey,

very helpful information. Thanks a lot for that. But just to clarify: you're saying that any type of aromatase inhibitors is harmful. But when taking testosterone, there can be side effects as a result of too much estrogen (like gyno), right? So what do you suggest doing in that case? Just stop talking testosterone, or decreasing the dosage?

jeffreyjerpp said:
Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

Or are you saying that side effects as a result of too much estrogen are basically impossible if you inject three times per week?

One, use the minimum effective dosage to manage your symptoms of Low T. Two, more frequent injections every day or every other day.
 
BeardedMastodon said:
Hi All,

I did TRT after test lvls of 400 for 5 months. My testosterone levels shot up to 1700 at the end... I had to take AIs due to estrogen effects. In fact, I had such an issue with estrogen even with the AIs that I had to stop...

I noticed at the highest levels my sex drive was actually lowered, but clarity of thinking was great.

I have been off for 2 months but still have extremely low sex drive... any alternatives other than. Clomid and TRT

If you're going to ask for advice give more information. How much testosterone were you on per week? What was the ester? How frequent were the injections? Were you taking HCG and if so what dosage? Many people report HCG can be beneficial in restoring libido.
 

jeffreyjerpp

Kingfisher
Ice said:
jeffreyjerpp said:
Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.

Thanks a lot Jeffrey, really very helpful.

One question about DHT: so testosterone is converted either into estrogen or DHT? Both happens if the total change in testosterone levels is too big? Is there some kind of ratio in terms of how much estrogen vs. DHT is produced? Or is this random?

So to recap: If the levels of estrogen are too high and cause side-effects, they can be mitigated by small doses of AI until the symptoms stop. And then the testosterone shots can be divided into smaller/more frequent shots. But what about DHT? If side effects occur (like hair loss), what can be done? Apart from taking smaller/more frequent shots? Do small doses of AI also mitigate DHT side effects?

The smaller and more frequent shots will greatly reduce DHT conversion. In fact, my libido decreased dramatically when I switched from once weekly to thrice weekly injection, because the DHT drop was so significant.

Other things you can take to stop the 5AR enzyme from converting test into DHT:

-Saw palmetto
-Stinging nettle root
-Finasteride and dutasteride
 
ScrapperTL said:
S3K2 said:
The problem with sarms is that the research is inconclusive. One study says a specific compound is not suppressive and another study says it is. I do think there safer than anabolics but I definitly would NOT run them during PCT. They are suppresive and the goal of PCT is to bounce your natrual test back to normal levels.

Also, the gains I've made on sarms do not stick around as much as anabolics. Even with an air tight diet. If I gain 10lbs of lbm (lean body mass), 8 weeks after cycle i'm down to 1-2 lbs lbm.

My good real life friend, who goes by the alias "Spurfy" on AnabolicMinds.com has been studying Neuroscience, Pharmacology and Toxicology for 17+ years, has multiple PhD's as well as been published on the prestigious Pubmed.com

He has proven, with science and anecdotal experience on many elite athletes as his clientele, that - Toremifene Citrate prevents Shutdown 'on-cycle', allowing your Natural Testosterone levels to be sustained while on strongly suppressive Androgenics.
This has the benefit of allowing your P450scc pathway to remain active while on powerful suppressive Androgenics, which also allow your body to maintain production of natural pregnenolone and cortisol levels while 'on-cycle.'
This prevents the all too common 'adrenal fatigue' which many TRT users are affected by.


Spurfy's scientific explanation, which he also has bloodwork from himself and multiple clientele to prove:
"That SERMs prevent HPG-axis shutdown on cycle shouldn't surprise anyone who understands their pharmacology: SERMs are not hypothalmic ER-alpha antagonists. An antagonist merely blocks the receptor from binding the active ligand. They are inverse agonists -- they bind to the receptor and then produce the opposite effect of an agonist, in this case, estradiol. So, it matters not if circulating androgens are high, since SERMs aren't merely blocking the effects of E2 on ER-alpha, they are initiating the downstream actions that are the exact opposite as what happens when E2 binds to ER-alpha.

The thing you have to remember when you run a SERM, is that you're essentially granting that chemical permission to manage your HPG/HPA-axes, and all associated downstream effects. For tamoxifen, this means potential liver problems, reduced IGF-1, elevated prolactin levels and an increased cancer risk. For clomiphene, this means potential cholestasis, sharply elevated SHBG and potential occular toxicity. For toremifene, this means... A reduction in prostate cancer risk and a risk of cardiac arrest if you have a pre-existing cardiac arrhythmia. This is why I like toremifene so much -- it's basically the perfect SERM for regulating the hypothalamus. It's not quite as potent as tamoxifen or clomiphene, but it doesn't need to be. The potency of those drugs are what causes problems with them.

If I were a physician, I would be prescribing toremifene to all of my secondary hypogonadal patients in lieu of TRT. With a small dose of a DHT-derived compound for a little extra "push", toremifene is simply amazing as a "standalone" TRT for secondary. I maintain total T levels around 850-950, my lipids are perfect, my ACTH and salivary cortisol are now in range (I suffered from "adrenal fatigue" for years), my liver values are perfect, my libido is great, my skin looks better than it ever has (thank you ER-b agonism), and when I cycle I don't have to worry about shutdown, acne, AIs, or any other nonsense. At 40, I can honestly say I look and feel better than I did when I was 30." - Spurfy, AnabolicMinds.com

Please read between the lines (I have bolded it for you Millennials who demand Instant Gratification from life!)
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and Clomiphene (Clomid) are not safe 100% for your long-term Health.
Old School bodybuilders used them because they were Pioneers learning and experimenting in an age without scientific knowledge.
Toremifene Citrate is not only safe, it actually has long-term Health Benefits, again - "A reduction in prostate cancer risk and a risk of cardiac arrest if you have a pre-existing cardiac arrhythmia." - Spurfy
The above quote is scientifically proven and attributed to Toremifene Citrate and Toremifene Citrate alone.
No other SERM can boast this.

SCRAPPER= Much respect for the info on TOREMFINE, could you please tell me what your recommended dosages would be to do what you stated before, taking an oral like anavar and keeping test production up and moving with TOR as the SERM? VERY VERY INTERESTED < Thanks man!!! You can PM me, I tried to PM you but it keeps erring out
 
Top