Testosterone injections

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Hi guys, new here been lurking forever decided to finally register and give back. This thread always stuck out to me as I have a lot of experience with AAS use. I know this thread if about TRT but let’s be honest here, unless you’re some one foot in the grave old man if you start shooting up test you’re eventually going to use more test and then steroids on top of it. I know what you’re thinking “no not me I won’t do that”, trust me you will....after you see what that test does and feels like I guarantee you will want more.

I’m on a hardcore bodybuilding board where everyone is juiced to the gills, so a new guy came on there asking if he should start using and of course everyone told him of course he should which is ridiculous and they got pretty upset with my retorts. So I ended up talking to him privately, here is what I wrote I think this might be a helpful honest perspective for this topic. The conversation started about using MK677 so this is an excerpt and I edited the curse words for the forum if I missed anything my apologies:


As far as the steroids go....ehhh, don't do it bro. Look if your bloodwork comes back with your natural test levels bad then by all means jump on some gear, no reason not to at that point. But if your test levels come back anywhere near normal then don't start with the stuff. You don't need to, if you want an edge and a boost there are other things you can use that don't have lifelong consequences. I'll tell you exactly how your steroid use is going to go just like it did for me and for my friends who started with me, don't listen to guys on here who have to justify what they're doing because it's too late, because they are chasing a plastic trophy or someone with an agenda.....


The first time you use AAS you're going to feel like a king among insects, you're going to curse yourself for not doing it sooner and feel like you found the meaning of life. What I used to always tell people is that there is no better high on this earth than a shot of testosterone, I don't care what your drug of choice is it's not better than test. You're going to absolutely love it your body is going to change like you never could have imagined and you're going to look in the mirror and see the baddest guy on the planet staring back at you, you'll crack the skull open of anyone who says differently. Believe me I'm not exaggerating this as silly as it may sound.

You sound like a responsible person so I'm sure you'll start easy and won't go crazy the first time.

Then you're going to come off and feel like shit for a while physically and mentally. You'll do PCT (which is bs but that's another topic), and since it was your first cycle you'll recover fine or at least enough to think there was no consequence to it. You'll be aching and counting the days until you get back on so you can have that feeling again. For me how I started was I would cycle for the spring/summer and then be off during the winter, you'll probably do something similar. Unfortunately at this point you've also lost everything you gained from it because that's just how it works, you don't keep anything from steroids you only look like that while you're on them don't let any jackass tell you differently.

Then since it went so well the first time you'll want to do a longer cycle and you'll get that great feeling back of being king of the world, this will repeat itself for a few years each time you becoming more and more brazen with your cycles.

Then a few years down the road you're going to notice that the recovery isn't going so well, in fact you're not recovering at all anymore. Each time you cycle it takes a little bit more from you and eventually it's at the point where your natural levels are just crap and don't recover. This messes with your head more than anything, you go from being a king to being a little runt with a broken dick. So now you decided to just stay on a "replacement" dose year round that's what everyone else is doing, congratulations you're going to be jabbing yourself with a needle for the rest of your life at least twice a week if you still want to feel like a man.

Then you're going to notice that you have to use higher and higher doses to achieve half the results you were getting before, your body isn't responding to the steroids like it used to because it's building a tolerance. This comes with much worse side effects because you have to use higher doses now, when I say side effects I don't mean some BS bloat or puffy nipples I mean a messed up heart, a weird libido, high cholesterol, bad joints, mental issues and all kinds of other crazy serious crap. I'm not even going to bother going into detail with that but I'll also tell you this....you think you're balding now haha you haven't seen anything yet! This also coincides with you getting older and your body doesn't tolerate things like it used to just for the simply fact that your older, the side effects are that much worse because of it. You start trying different compounds that you've never used before because some of the old compounds just aren't tolerable anymore or not doing much, you have no experience with these new ones and don't have the luxury of being fresh to steroids anymore so they mess you up even more.

This is where I am right now.

So now it's decision time, do you stay on this path of having to stab yourself twice a week for the rest of your life hiding it from loved ones and dealing with everything that comes with this lifestyle including the side effects being less and less manageable over time and destroying your health. Or do you come off and HOPE that you somewhat recover to live a normal life. Most guys don't have any chance of recovering no matter what they do, you end up as half of what you were before, if that. So you stay on your "replacement" dose and you get old enough to the point where you can't even use any more than TRT or any other steroids at all because your body just can't handle it, you're too old and it will kill you at this point....no joke. I know that sounds extreme but it's really not, you can find plenty of sugar coated examples here on the forum, every other post on the forum is a problem with using steroids.....some very very serious problems.


So that's it, that's where you end up.....you're that old guy that looks like trash but used to be built with all kinds of problems or you're the old guy that looks like a weirdo freak show and will die young because of it.

Think of your body like a high end sports car and steroids are running it in the red, nothing wrong with running it hard every now and then that's what it's made for but if you run it in the red often enough it's going to have some problems no matter how well built it is or how well you take care of it, it's unavoidable.



Bro you want an edge and you want to use shit that you'll actually get results from you don't have to use steroids. Get yourself some GH, GH has no real consequences as long as you’re using any halfway responsible dose. GH makes your body just work/look slightly better in every way and it burns fat, that's probable what it does best is burn fat and just make your muscles look more pronounced. The only side effects it has are a fraction of whatever steroids would do to you and none of them are long term. Besides that there are synthetine products, injectable l carnitine is real and it definitely works with no sides. Also if you want to burn fat there is clen and ephedra, DNP if you don't like stimulants. None of those will have any long term side effects if used responsibly. I was never looking to be mr olympia I just wanted to look better, I wish I had someone to tell me this stuff instead of my jackass friend convincing me that steroids were no big deal....the guy comes to me for advice now.

Just be careful bro, you're a grown man you can do what you want nobody can tell you differently but this is a lifelong messed up commitment it's not something to be casual about. I know you're thinking "this guy doesn't know me I'm not going to turn out that way" but trust me that first rush will get you and you will be hooked, it's an addiction and really slippery slope....until it's not fun anymore and it will sneak up on you.
 

Cortés

Woodpecker
Gold Member
I was prescribed Testosterone injections for low testosterone levels due to being on opiates for chronic pain, was on it about ten years. My balls shrunk to raisins while on it.

Two years since quitting testosterone and the pain meds, my sperm count is still very low, due to low FSH and LH. My testosterone levels have edged back up some since quitting. My balls seem to be back to normal.

If you want more energy, I would suggest taking Clomid. It raises testosterone without shrinking your balls and screwing up your fertility.

Damn that must have been hell coming off of both testosterone and opiates. I've seen people coming off of even subuxone, and that's not pretty. I came off Test and tried to quit smoking at the same time and I was an anxious mess for months. Did you come off both at once?
 

FactusIRX

Kingfisher
Hi guys, new here been lurking forever decided to finally register and give back. This thread always stuck out to me as I have a lot of experience with AAS use. I know this thread if about TRT but let’s be honest here, unless you’re some one foot in the grave old man if you start shooting up test you’re eventually going to use more test and then steroids on top of it. I know what you’re thinking “no not me I won’t do that”, trust me you will....after you see what that test does and feels like I guarantee you will want more.

I’m on a hardcore bodybuilding board where everyone is juiced to the gills, so a new guy came on there asking if he should start using and of course everyone told him of course he should which is ridiculous and they got pretty upset with my retorts. So I ended up talking to him privately, here is what I wrote I think this might be a helpful honest perspective for this topic. The conversation started about using MK677 so this is an excerpt and I edited the curse words for the forum if I missed anything my apologies:


As far as the steroids go....ehhh, don't do it bro. Look if your bloodwork comes back with your natural test levels bad then by all means jump on some gear, no reason not to at that point. But if your test levels come back anywhere near normal then don't start with the stuff. You don't need to, if you want an edge and a boost there are other things you can use that don't have lifelong consequences. I'll tell you exactly how your steroid use is going to go just like it did for me and for my friends who started with me, don't listen to guys on here who have to justify what they're doing because it's too late, because they are chasing a plastic trophy or someone with an agenda.....


The first time you use AAS you're going to feel like a king among insects, you're going to curse yourself for not doing it sooner and feel like you found the meaning of life. What I used to always tell people is that there is no better high on this earth than a shot of testosterone, I don't care what your drug of choice is it's not better than test. You're going to absolutely love it your body is going to change like you never could have imagined and you're going to look in the mirror and see the baddest guy on the planet staring back at you, you'll crack the skull open of anyone who says differently. Believe me I'm not exaggerating this as silly as it may sound.

You sound like a responsible person so I'm sure you'll start easy and won't go crazy the first time.

Then you're going to come off and feel like shit for a while physically and mentally. You'll do PCT (which is bs but that's another topic), and since it was your first cycle you'll recover fine or at least enough to think there was no consequence to it. You'll be aching and counting the days until you get back on so you can have that feeling again. For me how I started was I would cycle for the spring/summer and then be off during the winter, you'll probably do something similar. Unfortunately at this point you've also lost everything you gained from it because that's just how it works, you don't keep anything from steroids you only look like that while you're on them don't let any jackass tell you differently.

Then since it went so well the first time you'll want to do a longer cycle and you'll get that great feeling back of being king of the world, this will repeat itself for a few years each time you becoming more and more brazen with your cycles.

Then a few years down the road you're going to notice that the recovery isn't going so well, in fact you're not recovering at all anymore. Each time you cycle it takes a little bit more from you and eventually it's at the point where your natural levels are just crap and don't recover. This messes with your head more than anything, you go from being a king to being a little runt with a broken dick. So now you decided to just stay on a "replacement" dose year round that's what everyone else is doing, congratulations you're going to be jabbing yourself with a needle for the rest of your life at least twice a week if you still want to feel like a man.

Then you're going to notice that you have to use higher and higher doses to achieve half the results you were getting before, your body isn't responding to the steroids like it used to because it's building a tolerance. This comes with much worse side effects because you have to use higher doses now, when I say side effects I don't mean some BS bloat or puffy nipples I mean a messed up heart, a weird libido, high cholesterol, bad joints, mental issues and all kinds of other crazy serious crap. I'm not even going to bother going into detail with that but I'll also tell you this....you think you're balding now haha you haven't seen anything yet! This also coincides with you getting older and your body doesn't tolerate things like it used to just for the simply fact that your older, the side effects are that much worse because of it. You start trying different compounds that you've never used before because some of the old compounds just aren't tolerable anymore or not doing much, you have no experience with these new ones and don't have the luxury of being fresh to steroids anymore so they mess you up even more.

This is where I am right now.

So now it's decision time, do you stay on this path of having to stab yourself twice a week for the rest of your life hiding it from loved ones and dealing with everything that comes with this lifestyle including the side effects being less and less manageable over time and destroying your health. Or do you come off and HOPE that you somewhat recover to live a normal life. Most guys don't have any chance of recovering no matter what they do, you end up as half of what you were before, if that. So you stay on your "replacement" dose and you get old enough to the point where you can't even use any more than TRT or any other steroids at all because your body just can't handle it, you're too old and it will kill you at this point....no joke. I know that sounds extreme but it's really not, you can find plenty of sugar coated examples here on the forum, every other post on the forum is a problem with using steroids.....some very very serious problems.


So that's it, that's where you end up.....you're that old guy that looks like trash but used to be built with all kinds of problems or you're the old guy that looks like a weirdo freak show and will die young because of it.

Think of your body like a high end sports car and steroids are running it in the red, nothing wrong with running it hard every now and then that's what it's made for but if you run it in the red often enough it's going to have some problems no matter how well built it is or how well you take care of it, it's unavoidable.



Bro you want an edge and you want to use shit that you'll actually get results from you don't have to use steroids. Get yourself some GH, GH has no real consequences as long as you’re using any halfway responsible dose. GH makes your body just work/look slightly better in every way and it burns fat, that's probable what it does best is burn fat and just make your muscles look more pronounced. The only side effects it has are a fraction of whatever steroids would do to you and none of them are long term. Besides that there are synthetine products, injectable l carnitine is real and it definitely works with no sides. Also if you want to burn fat there is clen and ephedra, DNP if you don't like stimulants. None of those will have any long term side effects if used responsibly. I was never looking to be mr olympia I just wanted to look better, I wish I had someone to tell me this stuff instead of my jackass friend convincing me that steroids were no big deal....the guy comes to me for advice now.

Just be careful bro, you're a grown man you can do what you want nobody can tell you differently but this is a lifelong messed up commitment it's not something to be casual about. I know you're thinking "this guy doesn't know me I'm not going to turn out that way" but trust me that first rush will get you and you will be hooked, it's an addiction and really slippery slope....until it's not fun anymore and it will sneak up on you.
That's a fantastic post. Thanks for sharing
 

jarlo

Woodpecker
Orthodox
I occasionally listen to a health podcast called "The Drive" by a doctor named Peter Attia. I subscribe to his website, which grants you both access to show notes for his episodes, and access to some subscriber only episodes. I'm considering TRT, so I searched on his site for whether he has any thoughts on TRT. On one subscriber-only episode, Attia addressed TRT in the context of his longevity-focused medical practice. Here are the show notes on TRT:

Does testosterone supplementation impact longevity? [2:40]

Is Peter a “fan” of T supplementation?
  • Depends on the person and the situation, says Peter
Does TRT increase lifespan?
  • Peter is not convinced it will increase lifespan

Does low T lead to aggressive prostate cancer?
  • Low testosterone is associated with more aggressive prostate cancer
  • But that’s probably not saying that low testosterone causes aggressive prostate cancer
  • What it says is that if you have prostate cancer in a low androgen environment, it is likely to be more aggressive

Does TRT improve healthspan?

-There are 3 components of healthspan
  1. Cognition
  2. Physical “exoskeleton”
  3. Emotional health

-TRT and cognition
  • The literature does NOT support the idea that it improves cognition
  • This 2016 study in older men did not suggest that testosterone replacement therapy was improving cognition
  • That said, anecdotal evidence says some people believe it does help them cognitively

-TRT and physical conditioning
  • Improvement of and/or maintenance of lean muscle mass
  • Strength
  • Conditioning
  • Recovery from exercise
  • However… “The magnitude that those things are improved however is not obvious and is not entirely predicted by the number.

-TRT and emotional health (and libido)
  • Peter admits he’s not extremely in tune with the literature on this
  • But it would be “hard to miss” the improvement in mood and libido when treating patients for low T

Summary of Peter’s thoughts on TRT and longevity:

-There are four things we think about…
  1. Living longer
  2. improving cognition
  3. improving physical body
  4. improving emotional health
  • Physical body and emotional health are positively affected by testosterone
  • For cognition and lifespan, there is not as clear of an impact

-Regarding lifespan:
  • Yes, there are lots of ways that having more muscle mass can also delay death.
  • So notice Peter said chronic death when he was talking about death
  • It might be the case that TRT can improve muscle mass and functional strength which can prevent accidental death later in life

What about bone mineral density?
  • The effects on BMD are more pronounced in women than in men, but we do see those benefits
⇒ The Endocrine Society’s TRT guidelines

Under what conditions does Peter decide to treat patients who have low testosterone? [8:50]

IMPORTANT: Peter says he only considers treating low T if it comes with symptoms

What does he look for in the lab results?

Total T vs. Free T:
  • Testosterone is measured in nanograms per deciliter
  • A bell curve looking at TOTAL T is typically bt 350 and 1,200 nanograms per deciliter
  • That means you’re talking about 95% of the population would exist between on that scale 350 and 1,200 nanograms per deciliter.
  • If you’re at a 1,000, you’re probably closer to the upper end of that
  • and if you’re at 500 you’re at the lower end of that,
  • The majority of your testosterone is bound to carrier proteins,
  • The most dominant of them is a protein called sex hormone-binding globulin — which quite tightly binds testosterone
  • The only testosterone that has any biological effect is the T that is unbound to protein (aka FREE T)

-Free testosterone
  • Typically 97-99% of T is bound (so 1-3% is free)
  • The amount that is free is inversely proportional to sex hormone-binding globulin
  • Examples,
    • If a man had 1,000 total T and 1% free, he would only have 10 nanograms/deciliter of free T
    • Conversely, a man could have 600 total T but have 3% free giving him 18 nanograms per deciliter of free T

-What’s the normal range for free testosterone?
  • About 10-14 nanograms per deciliter

When does Peter think it’s appropriate to treat low-T?
  • He will treat if they have low free T in combination with symptoms
  • He won’t treat If they have low T but no symptoms, he won’t treat
  • One exception: If someone has low T and no symptoms but they are profoundly insulin resistant he will usually recommend giving TRT a try
    • Why? Because testosterone impacts fuel partitioning

Is there a relationship between sex hormone-binding globulin and levels of insulin?
  • Sex hormone-binding globulin is heavily influenced by four things
    • Firstly, it’s genetic/hereditary
    • Then there are three hormones that heavily influence SHBG
      • Estradiol ⇒ As estradiol goes higher, sex hormone-binding globulin also goes higher.
      • T4 (thyroid hormone) ⇒ as T4 goes higher, SHBG goes higher.
      • Insulin ⇒ as insulin goes higher, SHBG goes lower
  • So an endocrine response that would produce the lowest SHBG would be hyperinsulinemia, low estrogen, and low thyroid.
  • That produces a high free testosterone relative to total testosterone
  • Free Androgen Index = ratio of testosterone to SHBG and that’s correlated with free testosterone
    • But I much prefer to just actually use free testosterone since ratios can always be misleading. For example, you can have low testosterone, low SHBG and then a high free androgen index, but on an absolute level your free testosterone is still low.
Are there risks involved with testosterone replacement therapy? [17:10]

-The two things that are most discussed in terms of risk with TRT:
  1. Prostate cancer
  2. Heart disease
-Peter already gave his quick thoughts on prostate cancer at the beginning of this podcast (Basically, he doesn’t see evidence that it plays a causal role)

With respect to heart disease…

This 2016 study looked at 10,000 men treated with TRT and 28,000 plus controls over 5 years
  • After one year there was a slight uptick in coronary events . . .but by years two and three it had reversed
  • Adjusted statistical analysis showed that, compared to controls, TRT subjects had a 10% increased risk of experiencing a cardiovascular event (Hazard Ratio
    = 1.10)
    [*]The data was further analyzedby breaking TRT subjects into tertiles based on how long they were treated with T
    • Tertiles 1, 2, and 3, correspond to short, intermediate, and long-term exposure to TRT
    • This analysis showed that, compared to controls, the risk of a cardiovascular event was:
      • Increased by 26% in Tertile 1 (HR = 1.26);
      • Increased by 16% in Tertile 2 (HR = 1.16);
      • Decreased by 16% in Tertile 3 (HR = 0.84);
    • This shows that the original 10% increase in risk seen for all TRT patients is attributable only to those exposed for short and intermediate periods of time
    • Furthermore, the risk of mortality from any cause was:
      • Increased by 11% in tertile 1
      • Decreased by 10% in tertile 2
      • Decreased by 33% in tertiles 3
    [*]But what was the absolute risk increase in that first year?
    • A cardiovascular event occurred in 5% of the control subjects and 6% of TRT subjects
    • This equates to an AR of 1%



-Peter’s take on the 2016 study:
  • Given the small AR of 1% Peter says, “To me that says you take a relatively high risk population, you put them on TRT, and away you go.
  • That said, Peter is left wondering the following question…
  • What is it about TRT that would transiently (for that first year) increase the risk?
    • Is it the dyslipidemia that can occur in some men?
    • Is there some endothelial dysfunction?
    • Is there some hypercoagulability?
    • Is there a rise in blood pressure?
    • What is it about TRT that could be driving up risk in an otherwise high risk man?

I don’t think I know the answer to that question, but I guess I’ve had the luxury of not having to really worry about it because our patient population is so different and these risks are far outweighed by the benefits in the way that we apply it.

 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Orthodox
I occasionally listen to a health podcast called "The Drive" by a doctor named Peter Attia. I subscribe to his website, which grants you both access to show notes for his episodes, and access to some subscriber only episodes. I'm considering TRT, so I searched on his site for whether he has any thoughts on TRT. On one subscriber-only episode, Attia addressed TRT in the context of his longevity-focused medical practice. Here are the show notes on TRT:
Great info! Thanks.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
I occasionally listen to a health podcast called "The Drive" by a doctor named Peter Attia. I subscribe to his website, which grants you both access to show notes for his episodes, and access to some subscriber only episodes. I'm considering TRT, so I searched on his site for whether he has any thoughts on TRT. On one subscriber-only episode, Attia addressed TRT in the context of his longevity-focused medical practice. Here are the show notes on TRT:


Be careful with anything that is created for revenue. I'm not saying the things being said are not true but keep in mind everyone has the same medical studies to go by so a lot of times the podcasts and so called "experts" have to say things that may be a little funky or a stretch just to generate interest or justify their opinion, there has been a huge uptick in that lately. If you ask me personal real world experiences are infinitely more valuable.

Again not dissuading from anything that was said in the podcast it looks like all it's all just breaking down the known info in the medical studies but still just a word of caution when it comes to anything created for revenue.
 

jarlo

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Be careful with anything that is created for revenue. I'm not saying the things being said are not true but keep in mind everyone has the same medical studies to go by so a lot of times the podcasts and so called "experts" have to say things that may be a little funky or a stretch just to generate interest or justify their opinion, there has been a huge uptick in that lately. If you ask me personal real world experiences are infinitely more valuable.

Again not dissuading from anything that was said in the podcast it looks like all it's all just breaking down the known info in the medical studies but still just a word of caution when it comes to anything created for revenue.

The subscription to his site is fifteen bucks a month gets me access to podcasts and notes on them - there's no upsell to a TRT company, and there's no way to enter his personal practice - it's all friends/family. So, the incentives are working in the opposite direction you suggest - if he lies and gets caught, he'll lose his subscribers, since they're subscribing just on the basis of information provided.

I agree that perverse incentives are a problem when studying claims by some unscrupulous health experts. Also, to the extent that you're coming from a perspective of discontent with how the medical establishment addressed covid policy - I agree that doctors and researchers were not truthful about how uncertain knowledge was about infection/mortality, nor did they consider at all the economic/civil liberty implications of lockdowns.

However, I don't think such concerns are relevant here. I've always found Attia to be up front about disclosures. The only product he's recommended I've bought is Doc Parsley's Sleep Remedy, and I've found it useful.

That was a long-winded reply, but I like the guy, have gotten a lot out of his material, and have found him to be honest about what he knows and what he doesn't know.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
The subscription to his site is fifteen bucks a month gets me access to podcasts and notes on them - there's no upsell to a TRT company, and there's no way to enter his personal practice - it's all friends/family. So, the incentives are working in the opposite direction you suggest - if he lies and gets caught, he'll lose his subscribers, since they're subscribing just on the basis of information provided.

I agree that perverse incentives are a problem when studying claims by some unscrupulous health experts. Also, to the extent that you're coming from a perspective of discontent with how the medical establishment addressed covid policy - I agree that doctors and researchers were not truthful about how uncertain knowledge was about infection/mortality, nor did they consider at all the economic/civil liberty implications of lockdowns.

However, I don't think such concerns are relevant here. I've always found Attia to be up front about disclosures. The only product he's recommended I've bought is Doc Parsley's Sleep Remedy, and I've found it useful.

That was a long-winded reply, but I like the guy, have gotten a lot out of his material, and have found him to be honest about what he knows and what he doesn't know.


I didn't say he was lying that wasn't the point I was making and it may be cheap but it was still done for revenue you can't deny that, there doesn't have to be any upselling. All I am saying is to be careful and do a lot more research from multiple sources especially real world experiences if you decide that sticking yourself with a needle of oil which affects every one of your body functions for the rest of your life is what you want to do.

I'm not against you on this at all brother and I have nothing personal against this source of information.
 

jarlo

Woodpecker
Orthodox
I didn't say he was lying that wasn't the point I was making and it may be cheap but it was still done for revenue you can't deny that, there doesn't have to be any upselling. All I am saying is to be careful and do a lot more research from multiple sources especially real world experiences if you decide that sticking yourself with a needle of oil which affects every one of your body functions for the rest of your life is what you want to do.

I'm not against you on this at all brother and I have nothing personal against this source of information.

All good man - I didn't see your earlier post, so I understand a bit more where you're coming from. I agree with what you said about not doing test if it's already at actually decent ranges. However, I'm not sure I agree that it's necessarily the case that most guys who get on TRT will want to start doing a bunch of other AAS. There is probably a difference in behavior between guys who self-medicate compared to guys who go through doctors in their future likelihood of steroid abuse.

If you don't mind - I'm curious - when did you start on test/AAS, and what sort of regimen were you on, i.e. TRT or cycles, and what did they look like?
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
All good man - I didn't see your earlier post, so I understand a bit more where you're coming from. I agree with what you said about not doing test if it's already at actually decent ranges. However, I'm not sure I agree that it's necessarily the case that most guys who get on TRT will want to start doing a bunch of other AAS. There is probably a difference in behavior between guys who self-medicate compared to guys who go through doctors in their future likelihood of steroid abuse.

If you don't mind - I'm curious - when did you start on test/AAS, and what sort of regimen were you on, i.e. TRT or cycles, and what did they look like?

Oh of course, there is no sides in this or you vs me on this, it is something that is totally subjective and should be a quest for knowledge to better ourselves.

If we’re talking old guys whose testosterone is naturally in the tank then yes I agree they would tend to be more inclined to simply restore their natural levels and be content with that. But for younger guys I have to disagree, I’ve seen it time and time again once you get that taste of how amazing it is you want more it’s just natural and in reality if you’re already on TRT there isn’t much consequence to it.

I’m going to say something which might set people off because it goes completely against what most of us have always been taught and shoved down our throats. Steroids, WHEN USED RESPONSIBLY AND ALL PRECAUTIONS TAKEN, do not have long term health consequences. Don’t get me wrong they have a cost but no more than anything else a doctor would prescribe you which is supposedly to make you healthier. If you abuse steroids then throw that out the window, but the biggest consequence to steroid use as males is that it shuts down our natural testosterone production but if you’re on TRT for life then that doesn’t matter anyway. You’re definitely going to have some supercial side effects but as far as long term health it’s actually a surprisingly low cost to steroids, again when used responsibly. Mind you most steroids were developed to make people healthier, some were abandoned for that purpose but many are still used and given to people with very serious health issues to improve their condition.

I know this is going off on a tangent in regards to the original topic and goes contrary to my comments dissuading from TRT use but I’m not going to sit here and paint things just to suit my argument. There are two sides to everything and quite frankly there shouldn’t be arguments to this topic just the search for knowledge if it’s something that is beneficial. When it comes to this I don’t hold back or say things that just make my perspective look better because it’s a very serious topic and decision for someone to make.

For me personally I started cycling when I was I believe 29 maybe 30. I wrestled in college and had gotten really out of shape after that, long story, I started working out hard again and wanted more out of it. I let my meathead greasy Italian juicer friend convince that there was no consequence to steroid use, yea sure he was right if I want to be on TRT for life like him but I wish someone had told me the truth and I never would have started using AAS there are plenty of other things I could have used to give me a real edge that didn’t have lifelong commitments and consequences. I didn’t do blood work but even if they had came back low I sure as heck didn’t have any symptoms of low testosterone which is all that matters, I never wanted to be mr Olympia I just wanted an edge and listened to him like a jackass. What he did wasn’t malicious, it’s natural for someone to want to justify what they do personally to someone else and I went for it, it’s on me. Funny I’m the complete opposite now, I don’t put a single thing in my body that I haven’t read and obsessed over every medical study, expierence and research on it I can possibly find, I learned my lesson and that friend comes to me for advice now.

Pick my brain all you want like I said there are no sides in this and I’m not looking to dissuade anyone form anything just offering the knowledge and personal expierence that I have to this forum that has given me so much over the years.
 
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GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Orthodox
AR ey
Oh of course, there is no sides in this or you vs me on this, it is something that is totally subjective and should be a quest for knowledge to better ourselves.

If we’re talking old guys whose testosterone is naturally in the tank then yes I agree they would tend to be more inclined to simply restore their natural levels and be content with that. But for younger guys I have to disagree, I’ve seen it time and time again once you get that taste of how amazing it is you want more it’s just natural and in reality if you’re already on TRT there isn’t much consequence to it.

I’m going to say something which might set people off because it goes completely against what most of us have always been taught and shoved down our throats. Steroids, WHEN USED RESPONSIBLY AND ALL PRECAUTIONS TAKEN, do not have long term health consequences. Don’t get me wrong they have a cost but no more than anything else a doctor would prescribe you which is supposedly to make you healthier. If you abuse steroids then throw that out the window, but the biggest consequence to steroid use as males is that it shuts down our natural testosterone production but if you’re on TRT for life then that doesn’t matter anyway. You’re definitely going to have some supercial side effects but as far as long term health it’s actually a surprisingly low cost to steroids, again when used responsibly. Mind you most steroids were developed to make people healthier, some were abandoned for that purpose but many are still used and given to people with very serious health issues to improve their condition.

I know this is going off on a tangent in regards to the original topic and goes contrary to my comments dissuading from TRT use but I’m not going to sit here and paint things just to suit my argument. There are two sides to everything and quite frankly there shouldn’t be arguments to this topic just the search for knowledge if it’s something that is beneficial. When it comes to this I don’t hold back or say things that just make my perspective look better because it’s a very serious topic and decision for someone to make.

For me personally I started cycling when I was I believe 29 maybe 30. I wrestled in college and had gotten really out of shape after that, long story, I started working out hard again and wanted more out of it. I let my meathead greasy Italian juicer friend convince that there was no consequence to steroid use, yea sure he was right if I want to be on TRT for life like him but I wish someone had told me the truth and I never would have started using AAS there are plenty of other things I could have used to give me a real edge that didn’t have lifelong commitments and consequences. I didn’t do blood work but even if they had came back low I sure as heck didn’t have any symptoms of low testosterone which is all that matters, I never wanted to be mr Olympia I just wanted an edge and listened to him like a jackass. What he did wasn’t malicious, it’s natural for someone to want to justify what they do personally to someone else and I went for it, it’s on me. Funny I’m the complete opposite now, I don’t put a single thing in my body that I haven’t read and obsessed over every medical study, expierence and research on it I can possibly find, I learned my lesson and that friend comes to me for advice now.

Pick my brain all you want like I said there are no sides in this and I’m not looking to dissuade anyone form anything just offering the knowledge and personal expierence that I have to this forum that has given me so much over the years.
[/QUOTE
Are you still on AAS now?
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Yes I am, I blast during the summer then cruise for a couple months and take a couple months off of everything just to give my body a rest. Right now I'm using 250mg Cyp a week just one shot, then mid December to mid February I will be off everything get some bloods done and see how things look somewhere in there. Didn't start that way it was only summer cycles at first and eventually I realized that I just wasn't recovering anymore and putting myself through the misery of that recovery was pointless anyway.
 

bmw633

Woodpecker
Damn that must have been hell coming off of both testosterone and opiates. I've seen people coming off of even subuxone, and that's not pretty. I came off Test and tried to quit smoking at the same time and I was an anxious mess for months. Did you come off both at once?

Yes. The withdrawal from 16 years of methadone and 10 years of testosterone lasted months, so I thought. Turned out, I had developed Opioid Induced Adrenal Insufficiency, where the opioid screws up the Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Adrenal (HPA) axis, which means very little cortisol being secreted. About 30% of chronic opioid users have this, but my doctor's never had my cortisol tested.

I discovered this by researching this and found several medical abstracts on this. Since I am in the Philippines, I went to an endocrinologist, who had me tested. Turns out my both cortisol and ACTH were low, as were LH, FSH, and testosterone.

After a month of low dose Prednisone, I felt like a million dollars, body aches gone, more energy, libido back, GI issues all better. My subsequent labs showed improved testosterone levels, now in normal range.

Have been locked down here because of CV19, so haven't been able to see the endocrinologist in Cebu since last year.

Very limited labs here, so am waiting for CV19 to finish scaring folks so my wife and I can go to US and get more extensive blood work.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Yes. The withdrawal from 16 years of methadone and 10 years of testosterone lasted months, so I thought. Turned out, I had developed Opioid Induced Adrenal Insufficiency, where the opioid screws up the Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Adrenal (HPA) axis, which means very little cortisol being secreted. About 30% of chronic opioid users have this, but my doctor's never had my cortisol tested.

I discovered this by researching this and found several medical abstracts on this. Since I am in the Philippines, I went to an endocrinologist, who had me tested. Turns out my both cortisol and ACTH were low, as were LH, FSH, and testosterone.

After a month of low dose Prednisone, I felt like a million dollars, body aches gone, more energy, libido back, GI issues all better. My subsequent labs showed improved testosterone levels, now in normal range.

Have been locked down here because of CV19, so haven't been able to see the endocrinologist in Cebu since last year.

Very limited labs here, so am waiting for CV19 to finish scaring folks so my wife and I can go to US and get more extensive blood work.

Wow that’s awesome I’m happy for you brother, I hope you realize how blessed you are!

So after 10 years of using exo test your levels recovered? What are your levels at? Do you by any chance know what your baseline was before test use?
 

bmw633

Woodpecker
Wow that’s awesome I’m happy for you brother, I hope you realize how blessed you are!

So after 10 years of using exo test your levels recovered? What are your levels at? Do you by any chance know what your baseline was before test use?

Back when I was gaiving myself IM testosterone injections every 2 weeks, my labs were usually 400-650 range. I quit March 2019, I had it retested August 23, 2019 (almost 6 months), along with cortisol. Testosterone was 168ng/ml (normal range 280-800 ng/ml). FSH was 3.53, LH 1.64.

Then, I was prescribed low dose Prednisone and had my labs done about 5 weeks later. My testosterone jumped to 314 ( an increase of 87%); FSH was 6.7 (up 89%), LH 3.45 (up 115%).

I would love to have current blood work results, but I cannot travel to Cebu to have it done. The city of over 200K people cannot check cortisol, testosterone, or many of the other labs I need. But, am feeling much better over all. My raisins have returned to grapes, too.
 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Yes I am, I blast during the summer then cruise for a couple months and take a couple months off of everything just to give my body a rest. Right now I'm using 250mg Cyp a week just one shot, then mid December to mid February I will be off everything get some bloods done and see how things look somewhere in there. Didn't start that way it was only summer cycles at first and eventually I realized that I just wasn't recovering anymore and putting myself through the misery of that recovery was pointless anyway.
The big problems happen at cessation of steroid use. The body can be very slow to recover. I know some people have recovered to natural but they need a sophisticated protocol of meds to have a chance. That natural isn't going to be what it once was.
 

GWYW2015

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Back when I was gaiving myself IM testosterone injections every 2 weeks, my labs were usually 400-650 range. I quit March 2019, I had it retested August 23, 2019 (almost 6 months), along with cortisol. Testosterone was 168ng/ml (normal range 280-800 ng/ml). FSH was 3.53, LH 1.64.

Then, I was prescribed low dose Prednisone and had my labs done about 5 weeks later. My testosterone jumped to 314 ( an increase of 87%); FSH was 6.7 (up 89%), LH 3.45 (up 115%).

I would love to have current blood work results, but I cannot travel to Cebu to have it done. The city of over 200K people cannot check cortisol, testosterone, or many of the other labs I need. But, am feeling much better over all. My raisins have returned to grapes, too.
Your post six months LH and FSH is very normal and healthy but your total T is lower than your LH and FSH would suggest. Were you considered "secondary" when you began TRT? If you were "primary" (testicular failure) those would be a lot higher.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
The big problems happen at cessation of steroid use. The body can be very slow to recover. I know some people have recovered to natural but they need a sophisticated protocol of meds to have a chance. That natural isn't going to be what it once was.


Yes that's exactly the issue and that's why I tell everyone who has anywhere near normal levels not to start with it. It's not something to toy with, it's a lifelong commitment with a lot of consequences and a lot of people who are on it will try to convince you that's it's not. A drowning man will always pull someone down with them to save themselves.

What protocol of meds are referring to if you don't mind me asking?
 
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