The abortion thread

Garuda

Kingfisher


E-OIPSUWEAkPsqu.jpg
 
The fascinating legal battle is dissected here.



It is not a case of abortion will now be illegal, rather private citizens are given the right to sue providers of abortion and courts will then decide the case while considering Roe vs Wade. Quite a genius move by pro-life Texas lawyers.
 

Towgunner

Kingfisher
So, good news on the recent developments in Texas regarding abortion. As expected, the left predictably is "outraged" over this. Again, I'm reminded of why I detest these people. At the end of the day, abortion is nothing more than an excuse for irresponsibility. And that's just not practical in a world that demands responsibility. I find it disgusting. The >50mm dead humans since roe is firm evidence that abortion is in fact a form of birth control. But, abortion is far more than simple irresponsibility. Its killing one's own in vitro. Lost in the cacophony of "liberation" and "rights" is the ugly reality that a woman is so depraved she would kill her own child, which is in effect, killing herself for momentary pleasure. To that end, I think the issue is a lot broader. Indeed, we need to re-examine, critically, the "sexual revolution". And I would go as far as to say we must review with the intention of rejecting this putrid ideology that has elevated sex as the highest purpose in life.
 
I don't want to sound elitist, but how many of these women who advocate abortions would truly be blessed with birthing another human? It seems that are fulfilling their dead-end purposes by resigning themselves as advocates of what they could never escape from. To my knowledge I never caused a woman to have an abortion, though am guilty of the day after pills. But there was some discussion on here on how many people alive today should not exist because of faulty genes, not from the elitist "useless eater" perspective but rather the practical existence vs practical never coming into existence due to wars and massacres etc. Add all the toxins that have mentally deranged our populations and we're in the freakshow of the ages.

I met a beautiful woman towards the end of 2019 who acted very masculine, but was not a bulldyke. Another example of how women are becoming men when men are simping and acting faggy all the time. We went out a few times. She seemed to admit happily that "her genes will die with her" because she has three brothers, though through the smokescreen of libtardian subterfuges, I could tell she was waiting for a man dominant and strong enough to come knock her up. Apparently I wasn't the one. There is something I like about these alpha females, but to get one to submit to you under the heel of family, is no easy task. Getting one to accept Christ seems to be the hardest task of all, go figure.
 

Towgunner

Kingfisher
I'm still thinking things over, but, this Texas abortion ban, as it were, is quite significant. Obviously significant. We've just experienced or are currently experiencing a radical left-wing revolution in our country. Every day there's something horrible happening. And then this happens. Abortion has been a central issue for the left, make no mistake, this is a big deal. I can't say that I'm all that surprised. Polling over the years has indicated more support for pro-life versus pro-choice, but then again, what difference does that make in a country where elections and polling are unreliable. The polling changes are, nonetheless, significant too because it speaks to something deeper occurring within the zeitgeist. This is all encouraging. But what does it really indicate? Certainly, it matters to just the abortion issue, but, I can't help but think there's more going on and this is a multi-issue development.

On one hand, it could simply be yet another example of the deepening divides between people and our country. This vector supports the case of an eventual break-up of the US. I can easily see more red states implementing similar legislation while blue states remain steadfast in their pro-abortion policies. In this instance, abortion serves as a marker, of sorts, underscoring the cultural drift. But it could be any other divisive issue that will continue to erode the union.

But what of the aforementioned zeitgeist? Rumblings? I do feel, more intuitively, that frustration with radical left-wing ideology is growing. I think there are "weak signals" all around us and they're about as frequent as all the left-wing insanity we see daily. For example, the repudiation of political correctness among comedians. Comedians are amusing and annoying, but, they're among those people where this sentiment applies: "the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls". And so they portend things. Abortion and comedians, particularly when many comedians (at least the mainstream ones) are likely pro-choice or in the least ambivalent, seem unrelated. But, in the context of grassroots change they're not. What matters is they're fed up just like the Texas pro-lifers.

The Texas ban repudiates a lot of things. Certainly the immediate pro-choice argument. That deserves much attention, for sure, because, it appears the zeitgeist is realizing the evil inherent in abortion. This matters. As a Christian, It's easy for me to dismiss the contrary point(s), that I think get most normies i.e. "what about rape or incest cases etc". But I can appreciate how an otherwise indifferent person (normie) can fall for this old gag. Indeed, it's compelling even for me, which makes me wonder how easy it is for a normie to succumb to this side. But, its losing its appeal all the same. Good! We can conclude that more and more people see abortion for what it truly is.

The abortion industry is no help to their own cause given all the recent exposure and revelations from selling baby parts for profit to frothing "doctors" declaring their love for satan.

I look deeper. I think a great deal of despair today, i.e. "mental health issues", can be traced to the sexual revolution i.e. the loosening of sexual mores. Most people are waking up to the fact that 50mm dead children are a result of all the obvious things, recklessness, irresponsibility, impulsive behavior et al, but also the institution(s) behind all of this that enthusiastically encourage unhindered reckless sexuality. If the 50mm dead wasn't compelling enough, perhaps, its the reality of the post-sexual revolution culture. The difference between what we were sold and what was actually purchased is coming to light. Here's another edict or plank from the left that has also been thoroughly disproved "free love". Ha "free", wonder how those 50 million dead kids feel about that. But closer to is the actual impact on day-to-day life. Love is not free and the pursuit of it comes with great peril.

The left loves to talks a lot about hierarchies. Its a central issue to their entire cause. For instance, hierarchies are the source of the power dynamics, which engender all of the inequities they cry about, or so they claim. But what of the sexual hierarchy? Here at RV Forum we're well aware of one kind of hierarchy, which might as well be the only hierarchy that actually matters. Hypergamy. For if the left is truly noble and entirely consistent with their teachings then they should be addressing sexual inequity. After all, are we not all "tabula raza", and therefore, exactly the same as any other would-be sexual partner? Hypergamy affects men, but, don't think women aren't left out too in their own way. It comes down to value distributions. No person regardless of their sex is immune from being plotted somewhere along this curve. Therefore, women and men that fall on the left side of the average do not enjoy the benefits of the sexual revolution. This dispels the notion that this social phenomenon is some kind of all-inclusive liberation. Worse still, given the confluence of social pressures plus the immense psychosomatic desire to reproduce, those left out of the sexual boom are all the more distraught, which means they suffer. I very much believe this.

When I look at the calculus to address this inequity I see only one real viable solution. The left has only one direction they can go in, otherwise, they'll have to concede ground and admit they're wrong. If we are all the same as they believe then sex must be open to all people at all times. This results in the kind of "Brave New World" scenario were declining a person's sexual advances is rude. We shudder to think of such a scenario and for good reason, but, I feel this has prevented us from actually examining this. I can't see it happening. I see it as an incredible violation of personal liberties and I don't see such a social phenomenon occurring at scale. Alas, we may be seeing indications of this and we can clearly see the direction "they" are taking us to, but, what you end up with is a society that forces sexual encounters, which is rape. And practically speaking, again think hypergamy here, women are not going to like this. So, I don't see this manifesting and if it is today its still rather nascent and I think it will reverse.

Rather, I see this. Compassion is one of those unfortunate words that the left has usurped. But, the meaning remains. How can we be compassionate without acknowledging sexual inequities and also the inability to reconcile such inequities? The only solution is chasity. Dirty word today, but, how can it not be. Otherwise, you're just letting others, and most people I should mention, unduly suffer for the most selfish of selfish reasons. This is what I feel is bubbling to the surface.

Sometimes its important to take stock of our situation and even more so when there's a victory at hand. Abortion is a major left-wing issue and Texas notwithstanding, this defeat should be a real source of hope and inspiration for us. We just won a major battle in this war. No, we didn't win the war and we have a long way to go, but, this is real hope.
 

Elipe

Pelican
When I look at the calculus to address this inequity I see only one real viable solution. The left has only one direction they can go in, otherwise, they'll have to concede ground and admit they're wrong. If we are all the same as they believe then sex must be open to all people at all times. This results in the kind of "Brave New World" scenario were declining a person's sexual advances is rude. We shudder to think of such a scenario and for good reason, but, I feel this has prevented us from actually examining this. I can't see it happening. I see it as an incredible violation of personal liberties and I don't see such a social phenomenon occurring at scale.
Great writeup, Towgunner. But I somewhat disagree with this part: I think we are on that road right now, although we're not far along yet. We are at the point where trannies definitely are accusing people of being bigoted for refusing to have sex with them because they're trannies, and because the refusal there actually does hinge on a point of the tranny agenda being that a "transwoman" is supposed to be a woman in the fullest sense. Men who want to have sex with women and not with men pretending to be women, or "superstraight" men as the meme goes, know the score but the whole purpose of being a tranny is that you're supposed to BE what you identify as. If a man identifies as a woman, then by the tranny agenda's logic, they are a woman.

It's why "you will never be a woman" stings them so much. But it's clear that this is where the sexual degeneracy program is moving.
 

Parmesan

Woodpecker
That woman should be at every pro abortion rally, because I suspect even pro abortion types quietly shudder when they see that shirt. Isn’t the argument that women AREN’T just using it irresponsibly as birth control, and these are tough, “medical” decisions? This lady is cleary just using it as a delusional pass for unprotected sex. By the left’s own terms, it’s a “medical procedure”. I don’t think a doctor would recommend an invasive “procedure” be done 21 times.
 
But what of the aforementioned zeitgeist? Rumblings? I do feel, more intuitively, that frustration with radical left-wing ideology is growing. I think there are "weak signals" all around us and they're about as frequent as all the left-wing insanity we see daily. For example, the repudiation of political correctness among comedians. Comedians are amusing and annoying, but, they're among those people where this sentiment applies: "the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls". And so they portend things. Abortion and comedians, particularly when many comedians (at least the mainstream ones) are likely pro-choice or in the least ambivalent, seem unrelated. But, in the context of grassroots change they're not. What matters is they're fed up just like the Texas pro-lifers.

That's very perceptive. Indeed most people now decrying political correctness does illustrate that the left is starting to outlive its welcome.

As the excesses of the left wing feminists start to become ever greater this will also happen to feminism. Whilst right now newspaper editors look cool when they hire an annoying radical feminist, they are now so abundant that in time they will be seen for what they are, mere annoyance. Soon the same newspaper editor will have no qualms in not hiring yet another left-wing feminist, as their ramblings lose provocative interest.

That's the secret pay off of not confronting left wingers and feminists, their own excesses will make them odious.
 

Parmesan

Woodpecker
That's very perceptive. Indeed most people now decrying political correctness does illustrate that the left is starting to outlive its welcome.

As the excesses of the left wing feminists start to become ever greater this will also happen to feminism. Whilst right now newspaper editors look cool when they hire an annoying radical feminist, they are now so abundant that in time they will be seen for what they are, mere annoyance. Soon the same newspaper editor will have no qualms in not hiring yet another left-wing feminist, as their ramblings lose provocative interest.

That's the secret pay off of not confronting left wingers and feminists, their own excesses will make them odious.
It will be interesting to see how the next generations interpret this. When I was growing up in the 90s, the things the left, corporate america, and the government now preaches were still fairly culturally and politically taboo (the 90s were generally WAY more conservative than today, even though the period was very much in the era of cultural decay). I remember in public school you could get away with casually saying “fag” if a teacher just heard it in passing, or you’d just get a quick “watch your language kiddo”. Public schools weren’t as overtly leftist as they are today, but their underlying message was generally: democrats/liberals were the little guy underdogs, fighting the powerful establishment of conservative elites.

So what is exactly rebellious and counter cultural now? Your schools practically encourage you to be fag/trans. Virtually every institution spits out the gospel of SJW and PC politics. Who are you rebelling against now?

A Red pilled worldview should in theory essentially become the new punk rock among young generations yearning to break free of the establishment. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen. I spoke to a 11 year old relative of mine recently and I asked him if it was cool to be woke at school, and he said not really, and most his class didn’t support all the lgbtq crap pushed on them. Most of his friends pay no attention and make jokes about golddiggers, simps, and tiktok thots.
 

bk19xsa

Robin
I'm still thinking things over, but, this Texas abortion ban, as it were, is quite significant. Obviously significant. We've just experienced or are currently experiencing a radical left-wing revolution in our country. Every day there's something horrible happening. And then this happens. Abortion has been a central issue for the left, make no mistake, this is a big deal. I can't say that I'm all that surprised. Polling over the years has indicated more support for pro-life versus pro-choice, but then again, what difference does that make in a country where elections and polling are unreliable. The polling changes are, nonetheless, significant too because it speaks to something deeper occurring within the zeitgeist. This is all encouraging. But what does it really indicate? Certainly, it matters to just the abortion issue, but, I can't help but think there's more going on and this is a multi-issue development.

On one hand, it could simply be yet another example of the deepening divides between people and our country. This vector supports the case of an eventual break-up of the US. I can easily see more red states implementing similar legislation while blue states remain steadfast in their pro-abortion policies. In this instance, abortion serves as a marker, of sorts, underscoring the cultural drift. But it could be any other divisive issue that will continue to erode the union.

But what of the aforementioned zeitgeist? Rumblings? I do feel, more intuitively, that frustration with radical left-wing ideology is growing. I think there are "weak signals" all around us and they're about as frequent as all the left-wing insanity we see daily. For example, the repudiation of political correctness among comedians. Comedians are amusing and annoying, but, they're among those people where this sentiment applies: "the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls". And so they portend things. Abortion and comedians, particularly when many comedians (at least the mainstream ones) are likely pro-choice or in the least ambivalent, seem unrelated. But, in the context of grassroots change they're not. What matters is they're fed up just like the Texas pro-lifers.

The Texas ban repudiates a lot of things. Certainly the immediate pro-choice argument. That deserves much attention, for sure, because, it appears the zeitgeist is realizing the evil inherent in abortion. This matters. As a Christian, It's easy for me to dismiss the contrary point(s), that I think get most normies i.e. "what about rape or incest cases etc". But I can appreciate how an otherwise indifferent person (normie) can fall for this old gag. Indeed, it's compelling even for me, which makes me wonder how easy it is for a normie to succumb to this side. But, its losing its appeal all the same. Good! We can conclude that more and more people see abortion for what it truly is.

The abortion industry is no help to their own cause given all the recent exposure and revelations from selling baby parts for profit to frothing "doctors" declaring their love for satan.

I look deeper. I think a great deal of despair today, i.e. "mental health issues", can be traced to the sexual revolution i.e. the loosening of sexual mores. Most people are waking up to the fact that 50mm dead children are a result of all the obvious things, recklessness, irresponsibility, impulsive behavior et al, but also the institution(s) behind all of this that enthusiastically encourage unhindered reckless sexuality. If the 50mm dead wasn't compelling enough, perhaps, its the reality of the post-sexual revolution culture. The difference between what we were sold and what was actually purchased is coming to light. Here's another edict or plank from the left that has also been thoroughly disproved "free love". Ha "free", wonder how those 50 million dead kids feel about that. But closer to is the actual impact on day-to-day life. Love is not free and the pursuit of it comes with great peril.

The left loves to talks a lot about hierarchies. Its a central issue to their entire cause. For instance, hierarchies are the source of the power dynamics, which engender all of the inequities they cry about, or so they claim. But what of the sexual hierarchy? Here at RV Forum we're well aware of one kind of hierarchy, which might as well be the only hierarchy that actually matters. Hypergamy. For if the left is truly noble and entirely consistent with their teachings then they should be addressing sexual inequity. After all, are we not all "tabula raza", and therefore, exactly the same as any other would-be sexual partner? Hypergamy affects men, but, don't think women aren't left out too in their own way. It comes down to value distributions. No person regardless of their sex is immune from being plotted somewhere along this curve. Therefore, women and men that fall on the left side of the average do not enjoy the benefits of the sexual revolution. This dispels the notion that this social phenomenon is some kind of all-inclusive liberation. Worse still, given the confluence of social pressures plus the immense psychosomatic desire to reproduce, those left out of the sexual boom are all the more distraught, which means they suffer. I very much believe this.

When I look at the calculus to address this inequity I see only one real viable solution. The left has only one direction they can go in, otherwise, they'll have to concede ground and admit they're wrong. If we are all the same as they believe then sex must be open to all people at all times. This results in the kind of "Brave New World" scenario were declining a person's sexual advances is rude. We shudder to think of such a scenario and for good reason, but, I feel this has prevented us from actually examining this. I can't see it happening. I see it as an incredible violation of personal liberties and I don't see such a social phenomenon occurring at scale. Alas, we may be seeing indications of this and we can clearly see the direction "they" are taking us to, but, what you end up with is a society that forces sexual encounters, which is rape. And practically speaking, again think hypergamy here, women are not going to like this. So, I don't see this manifesting and if it is today its still rather nascent and I think it will reverse.

Rather, I see this. Compassion is one of those unfortunate words that the left has usurped. But, the meaning remains. How can we be compassionate without acknowledging sexual inequities and also the inability to reconcile such inequities? The only solution is chasity. Dirty word today, but, how can it not be. Otherwise, you're just letting others, and most people I should mention, unduly suffer for the most selfish of selfish reasons. This is what I feel is bubbling to the surface.

Sometimes its important to take stock of our situation and even more so when there's a victory at hand. Abortion is a major left-wing issue and Texas notwithstanding, this defeat should be a real source of hope and inspiration for us. We just won a major battle in this war. No, we didn't win the war and we have a long way to go, but, this is real hope.

Did Jordan Peterson become a member?

Top post and well written.
 
It will be interesting to see how the next generations interpret this. When I was growing up in the 90s, the things the left, corporate america, and the government now preaches were still fairly culturally and politically taboo (the 90s were generally WAY more conservative than today, even though the period was very much in the era of cultural decay). I remember in public school you could get away with casually saying “fag” if a teacher just heard it in passing, or you’d just get a quick “watch your language kiddo”. Public schools weren’t as overtly leftist as they are today, but their underlying message was generally: democrats/liberals were the little guy underdogs, fighting the powerful establishment of conservative elites.

So what is exactly rebellious and counter cultural now? Your schools practically encourage you to be fag/trans. Virtually every institution spits out the gospel of SJW and PC politics. Who are you rebelling against now?

A Red pilled worldview should in theory essentially become the new punk rock among young generations yearning to break free of the establishment. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen. I spoke to a 11 year old relative of mine recently and I asked him if it was cool to be woke at school, and he said not really, and most his class didn’t support all the lgbtq crap pushed on them. Most of his friends pay no attention and make jokes about golddiggers, simps, and tiktok thots.

Man, I remember those days. It was so uncool for girls to say they were feminists in the 90s. Most that were kept it to themselves for fear of the avalanche of disapproval that would roll their way. Most guys then did not like feminists and thus most girls followed this lead. Then the social media era came, the Me too witch hunts and before you know it 45-year old Alyssa Milano started the Hollywood trend of actress Me Too suffering and public revelation (neatly leveraged into "give us more jobs").

The groundwork had been laid much earlier, with women entering the media, law and culture work forces, and of course they all lapped it up. What was still a minority put a spotlight on themselves and somewhere people forgot that being a feminist was uncool. Then the young media feminists started out and a relentless feminist onslaught started, which by its magnitude alone normalised feminist agitation.

All that is left wing of course, just like globalhomo and the anti-racism Antifa lunatics. To be fair though even in the 90s on university campus you had the feminists and nutwing leftists. It just goes to show, when you accept the fringe, eventually they take over.

My 11 year old daughter is already questioning it as well, yesterday she told me "Dad people on Tik Tok seem to like blacks and arabs a lot more than whites. They always say whites are racists". Imagine, your own daughter of 11 years old. I'd never talked to her about race before. Clearly I have to.

These things don't happen overnight though. This leftists take over was a long time coming. Every time a guy defended feminists in the lunch room in the 90s I knew this was not going to end well.

Indeed, one of the problems is that the establishment is seen as conservative. So leftists are seen as the fighters, the edgy radicals, and that appeals to the young to some extent. You have to have a certain amount of brains to understand what equality really means "the equal for the equal, and what logically follows, never to make the unequal equal". So easy to fall for the limp leftist ideology instead. And a must of course if you're gay, feminist, black, pro-abortion. It's to your advantage then in most instances.
 

Towgunner

Kingfisher
Man, I remember those days. It was so uncool for girls to say they were feminists in the 90s. Most that were kept it to themselves for fear of the avalanche of disapproval that would roll their way. Most guys then did not like feminists and thus most girls followed this lead. Then the social media era came, the Me too witch hunts and before you know it 45-year old Alyssa Milano started the Hollywood trend of actress Me Too suffering and public revelation (neatly leveraged into "give us more jobs").

The groundwork had been laid much earlier, with women entering the media, law and culture work forces, and of course they all lapped it up. What was still a minority put a spotlight on themselves and somewhere people forgot that being a feminist was uncool. Then the young media feminists started out and a relentless feminist onslaught started, which by its magnitude alone normalised feminist agitation.

All that is left wing of course, just like globalhomo and the anti-racism Antifa lunatics. To be fair though even in the 90s on university campus you had the feminists and nutwing leftists. It just goes to show, when you accept the fringe, eventually they take over.

My 11 year old daughter is already questioning it as well, yesterday she told me "Dad people on Tik Tok seem to like blacks and arabs a lot more than whites. They always say whites are racists". Imagine, your own daughter of 11 years old. I'd never talked to her about race before. Clearly I have to.

These things don't happen overnight though. This leftists take over was a long time coming. Every time a guy defended feminists in the lunch room in the 90s I knew this was not going to end well.

Indeed, one of the problems is that the establishment is seen as conservative. So leftists are seen as the fighters, the edgy radicals, and that appeals to the young to some extent. You have to have a certain amount of brains to understand what equality really means "the equal for the equal, and what logically follows, never to make the unequal equal". So easy to fall for the limp leftist ideology instead. And a must of course if you're gay, feminist, black, pro-abortion. It's to your advantage then in most instances.

I started to notice something in the late obama timeframe. Kids were getting into things like Infowars. The whole left is the establishment and the right are the rebels was materializing to some degree. It was still early, but, I could see it fomenting. This coincided with a period of relatively high levels of internet freedom. And there you have it. Shortly thereafter and after a lot of other developments, such as Trump being elected and Brexit, the tech overlords implemented their draconian censorship. Seeing the independence of the internet/media result in people moving away from radical leftism and embracing real freedom tells us something significant.
 
I started to notice something in the late obama timeframe. Kids were getting into things like Infowars. The whole left is the establishment and the right are the rebels was materializing to some degree. It was still early, but, I could see it fomenting. This coincided with a period of relatively high levels of internet freedom. And there you have it. Shortly thereafter and after a lot of other developments, such as Trump being elected and Brexit, the tech overlords implemented their draconian censorship. Seeing the independence of the internet/media result in people moving away from radical leftism and embracing real freedom tells us something significant.

That's the way it feels to me now, the left is the establishment and it is the left that is pushing massive censorship. The feminists want to censor porn, leftists want to censor Trump, Antifa want to censor statues, cancel culture has become an insane rabid dog, to the extent that even Obama spoke out against it.

Unfortunately the writing is on the wall as Facebook censors users ever more, and countries pass snow flake laws against "cyber bullying", meanwhile media giants bully anyone they want, including presidents. Censorship is definitely on the way up.

The problem is that the left have become the centre. This was the case for a while, most western countries are really socialist democratic welfare countries, so now only the radically left are perceived as leftist. But I would view an establishment body like Chatham House as leftists as well because the centre has become leftist for a while. Yes, there is popular dislike of the radical left, but what if the establishment itself has become leftist to the core?
 
To that end, I think the issue is a lot broader. Indeed, we need to re-examine, critically, the "sexual revolution". And I would go as far as to say we must review with the intention of rejecting this putrid ideology that has elevated sex as the highest purpose in life.

Its an inversion of what Sex is designed to be. Instead of that which is holy. Set apart for Husband and Wife for their mutual pleasure and for the building of families.


But once it is severed from its original purpose. Much like fire escaping the fireplace. It now begins to burn the house down.

What is instinctive in the first place is nothing to do with what is promoted in degenerate culture leading to all sorts of fetishes and destructive patterns. Namely that which causes disease or injury. Degrading health in the process of maximizing pleasure.

Its now treated as a narcotic and bears similarity in its effects.
 
I started to notice something in the late obama timeframe. Kids were getting into things like Infowars. The whole left is the establishment and the right are the rebels was materializing to some degree. It was still early, but, I could see it fomenting. This coincided with a period of relatively high levels of internet freedom. And there you have it. Shortly thereafter and after a lot of other developments, such as Trump being elected and Brexit, the tech overlords implemented their draconian censorship. Seeing the independence of the internet/media result in people moving away from radical leftism and embracing real freedom tells us something significant.

The internet effectively for a brief moment accelerated the experience of those kids. The barriers set up by the age segregation broke down.

The artificial environment of school got broken through by the real world far more quickly than previously.
 
Top