The Afghanistan Conflict Thread

Max Roscoe

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
As ably spoken by someone who has never actually seen anything going on there in person.
If you just want to throw ad hominem jabs at an anonymous internet persona, you can send them privately to my inbox. It's utterly uninteresting for anyone else on the forum to read one anonymous poster's opinion of another's travel history.

If you have anything useful to say about the discussion at hand, please add it. Do you disagree with any of that or have a different view?

Better yet, if you have been there and have some insight from personal experience, why not share that instead of keeping it to yourself and pointing fingers at others who haven't?
 

skullmask

Woodpecker
The rout in Afghanistan is a huge indictment of the US military and foreign policy. To leave so much equipment there to fall into the hands of the Taliban is just shameful. Some of the stuff looked pretty high speed. A Boeing drone left in a box for them to loot? I bet China already has people on the ground there working on buying up all the loot with useful tech they can copy.

People keep talking about ISI and other help from Pakistan but does anyone consider that maybe all that US equipment, especially the vehicles, is what is helping them? Humvees and MRAPS are a lot better and more sturdy under fire than a Toyota Hilux.

None of the training and equipment the military did in Afghanistan did any good. Their fake western-style democracy was built on a house of cards. There is no Afghan "nation" that Afghan soldiers are willing to fight for, just a bunch of tribes that hate each other.
 

911

Peacock
Gold Member
None of the training and equipment the military did in Afghanistan did any good. Their fake western-style democracy was built on a house of cards. There is no Afghan "nation" that Afghan soldiers are willing to fight for, just a bunch of tribes that hate each other.

For better of worse, the Taliban have taken the mantle of nationalism with religious overtones among the local tribes, much like the Viet Cong did back in 1970s Vietnam.

If the current regime were perceived as anything other than a colonial puppet regime, it would not have folded like a cheap tent, in a replay of the fall of Saigon. This is common sense.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
If you just want to throw ad hominem jabs at an anonymous internet persona, you can send them privately to my inbox. It's utterly uninteresting for anyone else on the forum to read one anonymous poster's opinion of another's travel history.

If you have anything useful to say about the discussion at hand, please add it. Do you disagree with any of that or have a different view?

Better yet, if you have been there and have some insight from personal experience, why not share that instead of keeping it to yourself and pointing fingers at others who haven't?
I already have and did share that insight and you did not see fit to consider it. You are reaching the conclusion that the taliban are the good guys for literally no other reason than that the US was in conflict with them.

In my AO the local talibans set bombs in a patch where children played. they then blew up the children, waited until the local militia showed up to help the kids, and then triggered secondary devices.

You're claiming that an organization which blows up kids, is taking girls as sex slaves, and would routinely terrorize, steal from, and kill villages across Afghanistan are the good guys.


My response was to the fact that you reached your conclusion with zero actual knowledge of the situation, based on nothing more than "USA bad, therefore anyone they are in conflict with = good". Both myself and other posters here who have actually seen the place have said that is wrong.

Not that it means the AFG are good guys. Most of them are hopelessly incompetent and corrupt, but the fruits of that are bearing out with how rapidly they're losing control of the country in spite of having the benefit of almost two decades of training, assistance, and resources from the US.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
[
I already have and did share that insight and you did not see fit to consider it. You are reaching the conclusion that the taliban are the good guys for literally no other reason than that the US was in conflict with them.

In my AO the local talibans set bombs in a patch where children played. they then blew up the children, waited until the local militia showed up to help the kids, and then triggered secondary devices.

You're claiming that an organization which blows up kids, is taking girls as sex slaves, and would routinely terrorize, steal from, and kill villages across Afghanistan are the good guys.


My response was to the fact that you reached your conclusion with zero actual knowledge of the situation, based on nothing more than "USA bad, therefore anyone they are in conflict with = good". Both myself and other posters here who have actually seen the place have said that is wrong.

Not that it means the AFG are good guys. Most of them are hopelessly incompetent and corrupt, but the fruits of that are bearing out with how rapidly they're losing control of the country in spite of having the benefit of almost two decades of training, assistance, and resources from the US.
We wasted money time and blood... it was a terrible decision and a waste if life on sides.

But....

Cheering for a group that blows up children is something l never thought id see here.

People talk about these things like they understand any of it regarding tribal nature of the low IQ inbred savagery over there.

It's a no win situation. Corruption all around. AFG isn't the only one like this. Libya, Yemen are a couple other examples of this mentality.
 
Kandahar, Herat, Lashkar Gah (not yet verified) have been taken over by the Taliban


I haven't checked any official communiques due to lack of time but consider this likely



Bill Roggio runs the Long War Journal, a notoriously Atlanticist outlet funded off taxpayer money

I have followed him for 10 years plus, back when I was still supportive of these endless wars based on false pretenses. He is to be considered a good, genuine guy. Knowledgable too. Just tremendously delusional. Although it does have to be said that in the last couple of years he has dropped all pretentions of democracy and freedom. Maybe at this point he is just in it for the paycheck.


 

bucky

Ostrich
Kandahar, Herat, Lashkar Gah (not yet verified) have been taken over by the Taliban


I haven't checked any official communiques due to lack of time but consider this likely



Bill Roggio runs the Long War Journal, a notoriously Atlanticist outlet funded off taxpayer money

I have followed him for 10 years plus, back when I was still supportive of these endless wars based on false pretenses. He is to be considered a good, genuine guy. Knowledgable too. Just tremendously delusional. Although it does have to be said that in the last couple of years he has dropped all pretentions of democracy and freedom. Maybe at this point he is just in it for the paycheck.


I talked to an Afghan immigrant the other night and asked her how long until the Taliban overrun Kabul. She said a few months, at the most.
 

911

Peacock
Gold Member
I already have and did share that insight and you did not see fit to consider it. You are reaching the conclusion that the taliban are the good guys for literally no other reason than that the US was in conflict with them.

In my AO the local talibans set bombs in a patch where children played. they then blew up the children, waited until the local militia showed up to help the kids, and then triggered secondary devices.

You're claiming that an organization which blows up kids, is taking girls as sex slaves, and would routinely terrorize, steal from, and kill villages across Afghanistan are the good guys.

My response was to the fact that you reached your conclusion with zero actual knowledge of the situation, based on nothing more than "USA bad, therefore anyone they are in conflict with = good". Both myself and other posters here who have actually seen the place have said that is wrong.

Not that it means the AFG are good guys. Most of them are hopelessly incompetent and corrupt, but the fruits of that are bearing out with how rapidly they're losing control of the country in spite of having the benefit of almost two decades of training, assistance, and resources from the US.

Daniel Hale stated that 90% of the Afghanis killed in US drone bombings were "collateral damage". He's serving 5 years in jail for this. Given the shear scale of the US bombings the last 20 years, I seriously doubt that the Taliban's body count is anywhere close to the US'.
 
I talked to an Afghan immigrant the other night and asked her how long until the Taliban overrun Kabul. She said a few months, at the most.
A few months? Is there anyone left fighting for the ANA?

Taliban took districts that are 80km from Kabul yesterday

It would be incredibly symbolic if the official US withdrawal on August 31 will be against a background of artillery fire and people fleeing the city.

 

Cartographer

Pelican
Gold Member
It's kind of refreshing seeing the Taliban undo 20 years of American occupation in a matter of days.
This is an interesting way to criticize US policy. Considering that men and women were ordered into that region and had to operate there regardless of their views on that policy, you might want to be less flippant and careless with your language. You felt free to make your contempt public so why shouldn't it be publicly answered?
Your contempt towards the US is obvious, does that extend to American servicemen as well?
 

Max Roscoe

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
It's going to be way more interesting for everyone here if we discuss Afghanistan and not Max Roscoe's emotions.
It is what it is, regardless of how I feel about it.

Anyway, I do see the Bush Wars as an abomination, and the sooner they are erased the better.
There was a whole cadre of evil, beginning with Donald Rumsfeld and leading to torture chambers and extraordinary rendition and the Patriot Act and the TSA and the end of habeus corpus and there are hundreds of thousands of souls extinguished in his wake.

I don't know what reaction to have to that other than shock, horror, disgust, and, sure, contempt. It was an evil act. And now it is ending. A few more innocents will die, as the chips fall where they will, but hopefully the death and destruction will end soon.

I guess if one doesn't like the unraveling of the 20 year war, the alternative view would be accepting the Democracy and the Hamid Karzai regime that the US installed. Does anyone believe democracy is good for Afghanistan? I'm not a fan of it in Current Year America, but surely it would be a disaster over there. At the very least the majority would vote for Muslim theocracy, which is supposedly what we were fighting against in the first place.

Afghanistan was a nation of Sandy Muslims and we are at war against Islam so we will fight the country for 20 years and then give them universal suffrage and democracy so that they can... elect a Muslim theocratic government because they are all Muslims. That is the kind of logic the American planners were using.

Which is the whole problem with the war. It was completely misunderstood from start to finish, with no real goals and no idea who we were fighting or why. Rumsfeld pushed for war on September 12, and he got it. A few evil men got very rich. A lot of people died. And now the Afghans have to pick up the pieces and make the best of their country. They will undo the western liberal democracy, which they never asked for and do not want. About the only good thing one can say about it is that now it is up to them to build their own destiny. Oh and the Opium production and Tinder will be shut down.

On the other hand if you just dont like the blunt impersonal language used to summarize 20 years of needless death and sacrifice, and were one of the poor souls who spent blood sweat and tears over there, I can understand that and really feel terrible for you. I can't imagine how horrible it would feel realizing that something people worked on for decades, and even died for, is being seen as a mistake to be quickly erased. But if we don't call it out for what it really is, isn't there a risk of making the same mistake again?
 
Are these people on drugs or something? It seriously hard to comprehend how far from reality they seem.

One month ago they sent a destroyer into Russian waters, a couple of days ago they blatantly provoked China in the South China Sea and now they think they can re-do a 2001 - all by themselves - whilst seemingly completely unaware of the tectonic shift in power balance and geopolitics.

That's the same al Qaida that cooperates with US/UK fronts in Syria and Yemen bytheway.



Taliban keeps on advancing, all these cities fall without any serious resistance.


 
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Yeah the NeoCons, especially the Nato cheerleaders in the UK will always want to go in everywhere, all the time.
After all, its not THEM who have to go in.

As far as the arguments above..

I don't want to get in to personal squabbles or disputes about this. Nothing against anyone individually.

I do think there is a need to re-assess some of the arguments here, especially the simplicity of some of the arguments that are being presented.

The Fash the Nation podcast "The Rape of Beijing" makes frequent reference to 'Lightswitch Thinking'
ie: binary thinking .. "Jack's wrong so.. Paul must be right"
That now seems to be very common logic on this forum.

So the US Deep State (Military Industrial complex) = ZOG so.. the enemies of ZOG are to be praised, or defended, or at the very least have their successes celebrated? That seems odd.

Anyway, some anecdotal evidence:

1. In 2004 I lived with migrants in a UK town. One of these guys was a Turkmen from Afghanistan who was claiming benefits and free English lessons from the UK government.
In 2001 Tony Blair had said that it was 'time for the west not to turn their back on Afghanistan" that ISAF would "destroy the poppy fields" etc.

Well, this guy worked for NATO/ISAF as part of a drugs task force and since he was from an uber rich local family who also had big stakes in the drug trade he was able to leverage his new position and new uniform into crushing his families competitors and/or winning them over and levying huge bribes whilst driving around sampling all the fruits of his new monopoly thanks to NATO/his role.

His entire family had relocated to the same UK town and were back and forth between there and their old home in Afghan whilst claiming huge UK tax payer benefits and whilst also reaping huge dividends from their NATO-protected Afghan drug operation.

We lived on the Oxford Road in Reading which was both the local red light district and highly Pakistani-Muslim dominated. In fact, close to my doorstep, on my road, three black drug dealers had just been shot by their Pakistani rivals.
The Turkmen guy had a few insights into the Heroin flow into the UK and the role of Saudi money flowing into the Oxford Road and their building of new mosques locally and radicalising the local Pakistani youth whilst providing a financial cushion for their drug activities and crime, similar to their role with the Bengalis in Tower Hamlets in London.

2. Afghans I knew in London all said the same thing that the WikiLeaks cables revealed. Namely, that Hamid Karzai was not only a puppet but that he was mentally unwell.
Karzai's brother (right up until his death) was the biggest crook, drug-lord, gangster, thug in all of Afghan and Karzai's regime was hugely resented by most Afghans as a result.
So there we do have a close parallel with the US backed ARVN regime in South Vietnam or the Nixon backed Lon Nol regime in Cambodia.

3. The Bachi Bazouk Afghan National Army ANA.

I had an Australian friend who was front line infantry in Afghan. Every base they had or even LUP in the field had to have two sets of pickets - one set facing out against Taliban attacks from without. One set facing inwards ready for their ANA to try and kill them in their sleep either by their own hand or (more likely) coordinating with external Taliban.

A UK soldier who helped train them said that they were an absolute disaster to train and a liability to fight alongside, resorting to standing around and nervously giggling when coming under fire.

Another UK guy who was in Helmand with the Parachute Regiment had some interesting experiences.. they severely upset the ANA attached to them.
The ANA explained that there was a status quo where the Taliban controlled much of the surrounding countryside and the ANA/Nato kept the roads open by tacit agreement not to upset the Taliban too much. Everybody's happy.
The Paras (much like the Rangers in the US) were built upon seeking and destroying their enemy and so they ripped up the playbook and spent the next few weeks and months going out to find and kill as many Taliban as they could.
A major problem had been that previous and subsequent UK regiments cycled in had weak officers who ended up negotiating with the ANA commanders so that their activities didn't upset them or the Taliban too much.
The Paras befriended their embedded interpreters who were cock-a-hoop that someone was finally taking it to the Taliban. The Taliban were very entrenched locally and often experienced and combat-tough adversaries (as you would expect).
The locals were utterly burnt out with it all, victimised by Taliban and ANA alike and had no faith in any foreign army changing anything at all.
When the Taliban found themselves being outflanked by the Paras in combat who tended to attack and mobilise every time they were ambushed and ripped into by mobile soldiers with .50 cal and Machine-gun-grenade-launchers then.. then the radio chatter started.
The ANA were sharing as much details of their movements in advance and in real time to the Taliban as they could (Interpreters translating as fast as they could in real time) in hopes that the Taliban would kill the Paras.
So the Paras were returning to base to share facilities with the ANA who were doing everything they could to get them killed. And the interpreters were taunting the ANA with how many of their Taliban 'friends' they had just killed. Not good for morale when you consider that when the Paras cycled out and were replaced by weaker reservist UK troops then the interpreters would be left vulnerable.
It seems that the ANA had fallen into the So-bel trap, "Soldier-Rebel", where commanders of both Taliban and ANA coordinated to divide up terrain and supplies and profit from joint predation upon the local populace.

The collapse of the ANA is the least surprising development there is.
The ANA were always a joke, they never amounted to a pinch of snuff and most onlookers are aware of this.

4. On the subject of left behind equipment.
I had a long conversation in 2014 with a senior officer in the British RAF who saw this coming.
He explained that the cost of shipping the equipment home was three times that of the equipment itself. Therefore, en totale, it was way cheaper for NATO to invest that money in new equipment to replace what would be left behind than shipping it out.
He worked alongside the US Marine Corps and Afghan Generals who repeatedly thanked NATO for "your blood and treasure that you have given us".
He said "I know what's coming. At some point in the future we will be out of there and the press will seize on images of a £1 million
Artillery piece lying beside the road in what will be Taliban territory.. and isn't it terrible .. but they don't realise that its cheaper for us to replace it than take it home."
"There'll be outrage but seriously, someone has to service those weapons if we haven't already made them safe and even if they can service them someone has to pay for and provide the artillery shells .. we won't give them shells, someone has to and they have to be compatible, not all artillery rounds are the same."
"It looks bad but all they will inherit of any worth will be a bunch of trucks and armoured cars. And they are mobile enough anyway."

5. Conquering Afghan? An electrician I knew in Sheffield UK was an old-ish Lithuanian man. His little Lithuanian community worshipped him quite a bit.. why? He was an ex-Spetsnaz sniper who had served with the Soviets in Afghan in the 80s and who himself had been shot at long range through the stomach by a Mujahedin sniper.
He said to me one night on the vodkas "you will never win there.. everywhere I went I saw 7 year olds who could strip down and re-assemble a rifle faster than any of my comrades could."

6. Afghanistan vs Korea/ Vietnam etc. I knew a burnt out old hippy who had driven across Asia on the old hippy trail.. Kabul-Kathmandhu-Khao San Raod in the late 60s and early 70s and who also visited Saigon during the Vietnam war.
He told the story of a Californian hippy who wanted to go horse riding in the hills around Kabul with his white girlfriend.
He was repeatedly advised against it but sourced the horses and the guides only to return days later on foot having seen his girlfriend gang raped and butchered in front of his eyes.
He went around with a romantic notion of putting together a posse to go and get revenge.
Sure enough a little expedition left and then trotted back a few days later with a story about a dead American and weighed down with the divvied up funds that the Californian had promised them at the start of their adventure.

Blood and treasure eh?

As the hippy said "It was always a wild country full of tribes who hated one another. I was in Vietnam and Vietnam was civilised, Vietnam Afghanistan was not.."

Graveyard of Empires - the campaign never made sense and was planned and implemented by armchair generals and politicos who had no idea how their impractical plans would translate on the ground.
Especially because the Taliban could run away into Pakistan at all times during the occupation whilst NATO was largely restricted to only fighting them in Afghan.

8. the Taliban were famous for their savagery during the 90s. not just blowing up the Bamiyan caves or carving up young girls or anally raping boys.
I heard about in London the example of the "Human Dog" the long haired man in chains who was brought out at a Taliban checkpoint to eat into/savage the genitals of randomly selected male passengers with his teeth in front of others in order to terrorise them into paying bigger bribes.
So based.
There is no evidence that this new Taliban will make life any better for civilians than their predecessors did.
Just because Jack (ZOG) is wrong.. doesn't mean Paul is right. Can we dispense with the romanticism and this binary "light switch" thinking on the Taliban?

7. Just on the subject of Vietnam: a little known Lon Nol backwater on the internet whose name rhymes with "Scoop the World" had a conversation about Vietnam a while back that went something like this:
A: "Hey, how easy is it to get injectable needles in Vietnam?"
B: "Well let me tell you its really hard, there is a long history of Opioids and Colonisation in the South china Sea area going back years which began when the Sassoons and the Rothschilds.."
Some Random interrupts: "Yeah they're easy to get, just go to x place or failing that.. y place (here's a map).
B: "Er, yeah..well, yes, yes - there is also that."

Jon Swain, a good correspondent who was in Saigon and also in Phnom Penh when the Khmer Rouge invaded, and who barely got out with his life - spent years in Vietnam before Saigon's fall and revisited Vietnam under communism.
He revealed his real identity to his Vietnamese guides and, after a lot of arguments, they said that he 'got' the Vietnamese and that they had respect for him and his take on their country. Swain came away saying that the Viets (ARVN and Communist) down the years were consistently dishonest, untrustworthy, corrupt, self defeating and infuriating.
Right now the Viets (for all their many strengths) are going a little bit crazy under Lockdown and showing just how irrational Communist govts can be (see also CCP China).

Vietnam was an absolute disaster under communism. Up to 2 M people died of starvation. The huge exodus of boat people and the rise of uncontrollable smuggling and Triads (both in the South and North of the country) led to the regime being forced to open up to the world and to abandon their communist policies.
I know people who can show pictures of their dead loved ones, young and old, from back then. there are vintage posters one can buy that say "One Pig, One Bag of Rice per month for every household!!!" (those were propaganda promises to big BIG communal households as well.. starvation rations) -
That was the height of what the new commie rulers could sometimes offer or provide to the Viet people after the war. Healthcare? Medicine? A disaster. Absolute disaster.

As for prostitution? A Vietnamese institution to this day.
Every reasonable size Viet town has many brothels on street corners dispensing chlamydia and gonnorhea/ herpes far and wide which are regularly visited by men in the local neighbourhood thus spreading it amongst married couples on each street. Its the reason antibiotic-resistant STDs are out of control in Vietnam.
If anybody wants blaming for that it would be the longstanding influence of the Usurious and money lending Chinese-Vietnamese over many many years.

8. Dubai is a major trafficking centre for prostitution (similar to similarly Muslim Kuala Lumpur).
Just recently a huge amount of prostitutes were rounded up by their pimps in LockDown Thailand especially in places like Pattaya and shipped to Dubai en masse.
The girls were quite open about what was happening which caused a stir as many of them have since complained that they didn't want to go (partly as Thais are steadfastly icky/racist about Muslims and Indians coming close to them).
Some have been barracking to come back and some are having their phones taken off them by their pimps in Dubai. One girl who is 19, with a kid, has now disappeared entirely for months now (presumed dead or possibly an indentured hostage) and has become a cause celebre amongst local people in Chon buri province as they are extremely annoyed at the predations of Muslim mongering and Dubais trafficking needs upon their Thai women. Even under lockdown within Thailand the 19 yr old had made enough money to send home, add to that she was very well liked amongst locals in her hometown and amongst locals in Pattaya and one can understand why the word Dubai has a negative feel in the mouths of many poor Thais right now.

So, in total..

Can we just tone down this "light switch thinking"?

Can we stop romanticising any and all enemies of ZOG?

last time I checked Two Wrongs don't make a right.
 
I think this is a case where IQ as a predictive measure does not hold up.

They Afghans have successfully defeated every occupier since the time of Alexander the Great.

Additionally, there was genuine progress and stability pre Soviet invasion, albeit mostly built and aided by western and Soviet influence as well.

That said, if the British and US could not even remotely subjugate or conquer said people, and wasted untold riches and lives attempting to do so, with literally no benefit....

Who exactly has the lower IQ here?

In the Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia (1219–1221), Genghis Khan invaded the region from the northeast in one of his many conquests to create the huge Mongol Empire. His armies slaughtered thousands in the cities of Kabul, Kandahar, Jalalabad etc. After Genghis Khan returned to Mongolia, there was a rebellion in the region of Helmand which was brutally put down by his son and successor, Ogedei Khan, who put all male residents of Ghazni and Helmand to the sword in 1222; the women were enslaved and sold. Thereafter most parts of Afghanistan other than the extreme south-eastern remained under Mongol rule as part of the Ilkhanate and Chagatai Khanate.
 
The Khans did what Alexander the Great did in occupying Afghan.

Rode all over the country killing anyone and everyone who dared show the least resistance.
In Alexander's case it seems to have been an endless task of repeated crushing and killing.

In these PR friendly propaganda times where wars are fought on TV news channels that approach is hard to countenance for any invader.

...hence "hearts and minds" "Afghan National Army" etc. etc.
 
The Khans did what Alexander the Great did in occupying Afghan.

Rode all over the country killing anyone and everyone who dared show the least resistance.
In Alexander's case it seems to have been an endless task of repeated crushing and killing.

In these PR friendly propaganda times where wars are fought on TV news channels that approach is hard to countenance for any invader.

...hence "hearts and minds" "Afghan National Army" etc. etc.
The male population got liquidated in those cases .That's seems the only successful examples of Empire in Afghanistan.
 

griffinmill

Kingfisher
This whole situation playing out in Afghanistan now is why I don't trust the government and why they do more harm than good. Twenty years ago I was very much against the Bush wars and so were millions of others on the streets here in the UK protesting. None of the wars made the slightest bit of sense to me, and I'll always remember people saying about the Afghanistan war that "we need to do something!"

Well, we certainly did do something. Now look. With Afghanistan we have a twenty year conflict and trillions of dollars spent and for what! The unravelling will take a few weeks and the country will be back right where it was pre-9/11.

What this means for us is hundreds of thousands of psychologically disturbed refugees flooding into the west, of course.

At what point do we realise that our governments are at best incompetent and at worst totally evil? On a related note, it's why I don't want to get the vaccine. I should trust these idiots?
 
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