The Bitcoin (BTC) thread

I will ask again , i did a few months ago but got no answers at all

Is it possible to buy a few thousand euros of bitcoin without showing your passport or registering your name to the authorities ?
My question is not provocative , i am just a noob.
 
Looks like I'll have some disposable income flowing in for a month.

Seems like bitcoin is a stable bet considering all I can hear is "Brrrrr" coming from the Canadian govt.

I'm a first time buyer looking to sink roughly 2k CAD. Would an experienced crypto guy be able to point me in the right direction?
 

Kangaroo

Woodpecker
Gold Member
Polniy_Sostav said:
I will ask again , i did a few months ago but got no answers at all

Is it possible to buy a few thousand euros of bitcoin without showing your passport or registering your name to the authorities ?
My question is not provocative , i am just a noob.
Use localbitcoins
 

Kangaroo

Woodpecker
Gold Member
forestdweller said:
Looks like I'll have some disposable income flowing in for a month.

Seems like bitcoin is a stable bet considering all I can hear is "Brrrrr" coming from the Canadian govt.

I'm a first time buyer looking to sink roughly 2k CAD. Would an experienced crypto guy be able to point me in the right direction?
Try kraken or binance i think they both accept CAD
 

kurtybro

Sparrow
Suspended
Polniy_Sostav said:
I will ask again , i did a few months ago but got no answers at all

Is it possible to buy a few thousand euros of bitcoin without showing your passport or registering your name to the authorities ?
My question is not provocative , i am just a noob.
Check for bitcoin atms in your area
 
Is anonymity really important for bitcoin? I am worried about the govt finding who has purchased it and buttfucking me with taxes in the future somehow. The extra fees for using a bitcoin atm hurt also.

I'm using the blockchain app as a mobile wallet. Is this foolish?

Final question. Would a crypto ETF be a wise idea?
 

joost

Kingfisher
redbeard said:
joost said:
Before someone replies with a looooong string of text, yes you can.


All exchanges have KYC now, including localbitcoins (it was my favorite).

The only available that won't ask you for information is:
https://bisq.network/

Go to https://bisq.community if you need instructions.
Any best practices for transacting on Bisq? Payment methods, security, etc?

I use Zelle to buy BTC. Accept an offer and you'll see the seller bank details (in the case of Zelle, email and name). You have to put the transaction id (do not write anything bitcoin related).

There's limits initially that get lifted after a period of time (to avoid Sybil attacks). There's less liquidity than a regular exchange but you're dealing directly with another user. No KYC BS.

And you need some BTC to start. Every transaction needs a percentage (even if you're buying) to be locked. That's very useful to avoid scammers or even IRS agents (LocalBitcoins have plenty). They make offers below market just to collect names and bank accounts (just to cancel later).
 
I see us (and I know several of us who think this way here who follow markets) retesting lows this summer (3-5k?), then most of us will just hold 5-10 years and watch it make rain.

forest, you might find this interesting as the anon aspect is something I've thought along time about. The thing is that it's totally different depending on who you are, how much you are worth, how much you are trying to move or cash out, and when or where. If you aren't a million dollar man plus, I doubt it would even be worth anyone's (gov) time to bother with you. One thing I've thought of that is done with stocks or other instruments subject to capital gains is family members and inheritance at (future) cost basis which if this thing goes up huge is a great way to buck the major portion of the gains taxed on.
 

JayJuanGee

Crow
Gold Member
forestdweller said:
Is anonymity really important for bitcoin? I am worried about the govt finding who has purchased it and buttfucking me with taxes in the future somehow. The extra fees for using a bitcoin atm hurt also.
In one part, you seem to be answering your own question that you do not want to get surprised buttfucked by the government, and even though we probably should not be talking too much about anything that could be implied to be illegal, such as tax evasion, there are a lot of legitimate purposes to minimize taxes and to not be surprised or even to get your bitcoins confiscated, like what happened to gold holders in the 30s. A lot of injustices can happen when governments become desperate, and no one really wants to be having to either defend wealth that they have legitimately acquired or getting wealth unjustly removed from them whether taxes or other government interventions.

Sure, there is a lot of trackability in bitcoin, and surely anyone who gets involved in bitcoin should be attempting to consider the extent to which his coins are trackable, because I believe that one of the aspirations in bitcoin would be to have a kind of digital form of cash that allows you to transact in anonymous - or at least somewhat anonymous ways, just like you are able to achieve with cash transactions, especially smaller cash transactions that do not trigger reporting requirements.

Go try to buy a car at a dealership for more than $10k in cash, and likely there are going to be reporting requirements for the dealer.

So, surely there continue to be developers continuing to work on ways to improve privacy, and there have always been some degrees in which some transactions were at least seemingly private because they were so small that no one is really going to care about them, but then at the same time, there might have been some false senses of security, too, based on some information that suggested that bitcoin was more anonymous and private than it really is and the more recent proliferation of blockchain analysis companies who likely overly claim their ability to figure out transactions, but they are trying to sell a product to governments and financial institutions and also gathering more and more information and even skills in regards to how to link various information together to narrow down identities.

So, some means of obtaining your BTC are more private than others, and some BTC ATMs are gathering personal information (know your customer - KYC and AML anti-money laundering), and some allow for transactions without gathering personal information. Sometimes you have to pay a bit of a premium for anonymous transactions, too, but I suppose that you can shop around. I think that there has always been a bit of a premium on getting coins directly from someone else, and you can imagine that if you meet someone on the street, and you say that you want to buy some bitcoins from them, then they are likely going to charge you a bit of a premium, unless they are trying to get rid of BTC for some reason, and that happens too, so if you are getting too good of a deal, maybe you might wonder from where those BTC came, and even though all bitcoins are supposed to be fungible, we have already seen that if you try to cash out in certain exchanges, sometimes exchanges are marking some kinds of bitcoin addresses or questioning source of funds if they attempt to trace back transactions that it might appear that you had done, if you are trying to cash out through an exchange.

I am thinking that there might develop better and easier ways of coinjoining methods that are develop in the future, and even now, there are likely preferred privacy practices in regards to trying to generate new addresses and trying to keep some kind of awareness of how you are using your coins from different addresses, and of course the smaller transactions should not be a problem unless you are mixing them with larger transactions that might have come from sources that might be questionable.

Surely, none of us likely know about any kind of one stop shopping answers to these kinds of privacy and anonymity matters because we are currently in a place in which some transactions are being analyzed, depending from where you may have transacted and maybe even several hops back, and you probably have little to no clue about the previous transactions, especially if you get the coins from a BTC ATM, but then there is still some abilities to trace the coins that you acquired back transactions before they entered the BTC ATM, and all you happen to know as a regular person is that you got the coins through the BTC ATM, whether or not you provided personal identification information in your BTC ATM transaction.

I guess that part of my point is that this continues to be an evolving area of interest and there are a lot of people who are working on various kinds of possible resolutions, and I doubt that you really necessarily resolve your matter by going to a purported privacy coin because a lot of those other cryptos have way less liquidity than bitcoin, and sometimes there may be a certain amount of preference to just stay with using the coin that has the most liquidity with some possible assurance that there is security through obscurity.


forestdweller said:
I'm using the blockchain app as a mobile wallet. Is this foolish?
Probably depends upon how much BTC you are keeping there. If you just keep a small amount on blockchain in order to have that for possible transactions, such as maybe $1k or $2k max, or maybe you might have more on there if you are going to perform a specific transaction, then it surely could be considered like going to the car dealer with $10k or $20k in cash, and it is secure enough because you are going to spend it, and you are not carrying it around all the time including when you go to the night clubs (actually back when we used to have nightclubs... hahahahahaha).

If you experience a $5 wrench attack, an attacker may or may not know if you have bitcoins, but if they do know that you have bitcoins, then they may or may not know of the archive features in the blockchain app., so yeah, it only provides so much security, and in terms of privacy, there have been some people who don't really trust the blockchain.com administrators to NOT give up your information if they were asked, but that would not necessarily mean that they are regularly giving up your information unless your address might be flagged.

By the way, you can generate a 12 word seed through blockchain to create a bitcoin wallet, and then transition access to that wallet to some other wallet that recognizes the BIP39 (seed) protocol, so blockchain.com claims to NOT have access to your actual coins or seed or anything like that, but if you are concerned that your privacy may have been compromised through using their service, then you could transition out of their service. but in order to completely get away from their ability to possibly oversee the transactions that you had done through their wallet, you may have to move your coins to another wallet and maybe using some kinds of coinjoin or other attempts to convolute some of your coins. We do not always know how much any wallet service might be able to trace your identity and therefore the identity of some of your transactions, if they were asked or compelled to share such information.

forestdweller said:
Final question. Would a crypto ETF be a wise idea?
I gather you are talking about a bitcoin ETF, right? There has been interest in increasing the financialization of bitcoin through investment vehicles, such as a bitcoin ETF since at least 2014, and several different entities have been denied approval by the SEC, but increases in Bitcoin's financialization vehicles has gone on. A bitcoin ETF is likely inevitable at some point, and if you are concerned about whether some of the financialization vehicles might allow for downward manipulation of BTC prices, then there is likely some truth to that, but at the same time, it seems to be that the more compelling theories remain that the more financial vehicles into bitcoin is likely going to cause upwards rather than downwards pressures on BTC prices.

Of course, with these various financialization vehicles, many times there can be uncertainties in regards to whether they are engaging in fractional reserve practices, and if they are, then they would be diluting the bitcoin supply and perhaps artificially suppressing bitcoin's price by selling bitcoins that they do not have, but they might have trillions of dollars of fiat. I doubt that any of us really can know exactly how the implementation of these various traditionally accepted manipulation practice will work out with bitcoin, because I doubt that the answer is simple because there are likely some ways that some of the downward manipulation attempts could really bite them in the ass, in the event that they do not have bitcoins to back up various positions that are taken but the BTC price moves way the fuck against them while they are betting and manipulating down, but BTC might not give any fucks about who they happen to be and if their infinite cash does not end up being as infinite as they believe it to be.

Anyone who asserts that they specifically know how it is going to play out might be over simplifying the matter because bitcoin remains an asset class that is quite different than a lot of the other asset classes, including its deliverability upon demand, which seems to make it quite unlikely to have a lot of the same real world issues that oil, gold and even real estate have in terms of their real world physical costs. For example, all of a sudden, there is a high cost to holding a lot of empty buildings (that only recently used to be generating gobs of income.. and now the continuance of receiving such gobs of income might only be through the purported generosity of uncle sam, who may or may not be ready, willing or able to be generous for the doling out of even sustainable income for certain classes of real estate, even if they are proclaiming to purportedly have the ability to print infinite amounts of cash, we still know that distribution of such cash might not even be feasible or practical).
 

JayJuanGee

Crow
Gold Member
Blade Runner said:
I see us (and I know several of us who think this way here who follow markets) retesting lows this summer (3-5k?), then most of us will just hold 5-10 years and watch it make rain.
There are a lot of scenarios, Blade Runner, and I doubt that it is inevitable that we have to go down before up, even if maybe equities might end up going in that down before up direction... but sure you might be right that some level of down is going to be tested... while at the same time, historically, bitcoin has shown some tenacity in terms of going against what the masses begin to believe is inevitable, and let's say for example, billions of dollars of shorts start to stack up in terms of anticipating the "inevitable" down before up.

Since BTC remains so damned illiquid, especially relative to other markets, some BTC manipulators can actually end up using that stacking of shorts and the relative illiquidity of bitcoin as fuel for going up rather than down. And, yeah, the UP might not be sustainable but it still ends up generating a shitload of profits, and on numerous occasions, we have seen such contrary to expectations behaviors happen in the past in bitcoin.

You might assert that I am just pie in the sky wishing for the bitcoin price to go up, and surely, I already have BTC buy orders going down to $3k and I am prepared to continue to buy BTC down to $2k-ish if necessary (sure I don't want it to happen, but I am prepared for buying all the way through it), but I still do not put a high probability that retesting of lows remains a condition precedent for BTC prices to be able to go up.. and we may have already gotten our outrageous down movement on March 12 when BTC prices went down to $3,850, and therefore that price was already retesting the $3ks, and it was a bit outrageous in its testing how far the BTC price can go or will go and likely shook out a lot of week hands. Accordingly, it could well be that expecting more down testing of BTC prices in that same range is largely pie in the sky wishes rather than based on anything that has high chances of happening or even needs to happen... even though it surely is not out of the question, but I would be careful assigning too high of odds to such scenario having to happen before BTC prices can go up.
 

joost

Kingfisher
Blade Runner said:
If you aren't a million dollar man plus, I doubt it would even be worth anyone's (gov) time to bother with you.
CoinBase is sending plenty of information to the IRS. I don't know the threshold but if I remember correctly is $20k in transactions. LocalBitcoins is €20k.

Look online and you'll see plenty of people arrested for buying/selling BTC without a "money transmitter license".




Let me give you an example on how things can go wrong:
- You buy BTC inside an exchange like CoinBase.
- Same month you spend them all. Let's say you send some BTC to friends (to repay those drinks or pizza), you paid your VPN, you bought some gadgets, paid your yearly subscription of porn websites and sent more money to your Philippine "soon-to-be wife".
- Year later Bitcoin price skyrockets (like many dream about) to $100k.
Now you own dozens of thousands of dollars in capital gains to the IRS. How do you keep proof of all the transactions?



To avoid problems with injustice, use BISQ to buy Bitcoin.

Another recommendation is using a mixer. There's a trustless way of doing it. Download Wasabi Wallet (http://wasabiwallet.io).
 

JayJuanGee

Crow
Gold Member
joost said:
Blade Runner said:
If you aren't a million dollar man plus, I doubt it would even be worth anyone's (gov) time to bother with you.
CoinBase is sending plenty of information to the IRS. I don't know the threshold but if I remember correctly is $20k in transactions. LocalBitcoins is €20k.

Look online and you'll see plenty of people arrested for buying/selling BTC without a "money transmitter license".




Let me give you an example on how things can go wrong:
- You buy BTC inside an exchange like CoinBase.
- Same month you spend them all. Let's say you send some BTC to friends (to repay those drinks or pizza), you paid your VPN, you bought some gadgets, paid your yearly subscription of porn websites and sent more money to your Philippine "soon-to-be wife".
- Year later Bitcoin price skyrockets (like many dream about) to $100k.
Now you own dozens of thousands of dollars in capital gains to the IRS. How do you keep proof of all the transactions?


To avoid problems with injustice, use BISQ to buy Bitcoin.

Another recommendation is using a mixer. There's a trustless way of doing it. Download Wasabi Wallet (http://wasabiwallet.io).
I appreciate your attempting to point out better ways to attempt to preserve privacy and anonymity, joost, yet I doubt that you completely avoid problems of injustice merely by using, BISQ, mixing, Wasabi, or any other related services that you suggest to be great candidates, even though the use of any kinds of anonymity services seems to be a step in the right direction in term of better practices, even while maybe the most advance of anonymity is likely beyond either the grasp of what people are able to do or willing to do.

So, yeah, there are likely a lot user-friendly means that are still being worked on, and even the disappearance of funds problem that BISQ had a month ago or so can cause people skepticism in using these kinds of services if it is going to end up causing their funds to get taken from their wallet(s).

Of course, there still can be various loopholes or issues with a variety of these systems including trying to figure out whether and how to transact with bitcoin and how to store the bitcoin and how much security might be needed depending on how much bitcoin you have in the wallet or how much you may have accumulated and need to consider whether to change your security and privacy measures.

It is right of you, joost, to point out that we need NOT even rise to the level of a $million man in order to encounter getting caught up in some kind of transactions that had been flagged or that there might be questions in regards to proper reporting requirements. Lots of this continues to be in flux, so dynamics that existed in 2014 might end up being changed currently or even if we are attempting to plan for 2023 or some other future date.

Of course, I am continuing to hope that lightning network continues to become more user-friendly with more options available and also there are some on-chain developments in bitcoin such as Schnorr signatures, Taproot and Tapscript.

There all kinds of continued developments in bitcoin, and even some mainstream articles are recognizing some of the power of the developments alongside what might continue to be UPwards BTC price pressures, such as the below-linked Forbes article from January.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ktorpe...bitcoin-trends-to-watch-in-2020/#1ba136062f2d
 
Excellent information. Thank you for the insightful and in depth replies Jay and Joost.

I would like to state that I have no intend to comply fully with the law and condemn any illegal activity.

I'll be doing with a bitcoin atm.

Is there a better mobile wallet or option to store bitcoin longterm as a speculative investment? I dont need access to it for hopefully a year or longer.

Hopefully I dont get stabbed putting 20s into the atm. Gonna get the concenience store owner to watch my 6.
 

joost

Kingfisher
forestdweller said:
Is there a better mobile wallet or option to store bitcoin longterm as a speculative investment? I dont need access to it for hopefully a year or longer.
Try BRD Wallet (https://brd.com). It's the easiest to use, fast and stable. You just have to write down the 12 words (seed password) safely. You can transfer BTC to a new generated address and delete the app from your phone. To restore in the future, just use the 12 words to recover the wallet.
 

JayJuanGee

Crow
Gold Member
forestdweller said:
Excellent information. Thank you for the insightful and in depth replies Jay and Joost.

I would like to state that I have no intend to comply fully with the law and condemn any illegal activity.

I'll be doing with a bitcoin atm.

Is there a better mobile wallet or option to store bitcoin longterm as a speculative investment? I dont need access to it for hopefully a year or longer.

Hopefully I dont get stabbed putting 20s into the atm. Gonna get the concenience store owner to watch my 6.
At the risk of another lengthy reply, I believe that it is best to attempt to consider your method of BTC storage in terms of how much access you believe that you might want to have to those BTC, which also relates to the quantity of BTC that you prudently would want to have in each location, and considering is it necessary to have BTC in that location versus another location.


Let's say for example, you have various amounts of BTC that you store with differing levels of ability to access those BTC which would also guide you in how much security to place in those differing kinds of wallets and what kinds of maximum quantities of BTC that you might place in each of the kinds of wallets.

So, hypothetically, maybe you have four categories of wallets (storage vehicles/backups).

1) amounts of $1 to $500 that you would carry around for daily spending. This would be similar to what amount of cash that you might carry in a billfold... so maybe that kind of wallet would be on your phone, etc., and if you get robbed, it would not be the end of the world for you to lose that BTC to the robber - just like if you were walking down a street and someone were to rob you of your apple watch, your iphone or your computer, maybe you are out a couple thousand or a few thousand dollars, and maybe you have to struggle for a while to save up enough money to repurchase those items, but you have not been robbed of your life savings... and so if you realize that you may be vulnerable to losing these kinds of valuables and currencies under certain conditions, then you would carry less in certain environments.. just like maybe if you were going to a bad neighborhood you might bring your burner phone rather than your best phone and you might not wear your expensive watch or carry your computer and you might also reduce the amount of BTC or dollars that you are carrying in your wallet(s) (electronic or otherwise) during those kinds of periods.

2) amounts of $500 to $9k.... you might have access to these wallets on your person or even hidden on you person or in your phone or computer, and these would be with higher levels of security than the 1st category, but you can still feel comfortable crossing borders and not having to declare any of those values because they are under $10k, and all of your liquid forms of value in this category add up to less than $10k even with all of them added together...

3) amounts of $9k to $40k .... you might have these so that you could access those funds in an emergency, but you might have it so that it may take you a day or two to get access to them, but you have access to them with a reasonable amount of efforts (and maybe not carrying on your person)

4) amounts of $40k or more - maybe life savings and amounts that you might not need to access on a regular basis, but you use the highest level of security for these funds, including that you would not put private keys for such in the cloud or with any third party service... You might even cause that you have to jump through a number of hoops in order to get access to these funds including geography and/or other people or other devices and you would want to make sure that you have the private keys to these backed up in very secure ways.. but not so secure that you end up NOT knowing how to access the funds... and screwing yourself out of your own high level of funds. The life-savings funds might be in several wallets, too... but employs the most security out of any of your funds that you can figure out... and maybe even changing the way that you secure these funds based on changes in technology or changes in your confidence regarding how to use the security features associated with those means of storage/backup.

So, yeah, I am suggesting that maybe you could feel comfortable carrying around the value of categories 1 and 2, but you might want to have higher levels of security with categories 3 and 4. For higher levels of value, you could use some kind of hardware wallet such as a trezor or a ledger or both and store different amounts on different devices. But you also have to be careful to protect the device but also protect your back up seeds, too. There tends to be a lot of responsibility in learning how to secure your BTC, and the more that you have, the more that you are going to want to spend on security and the more time you are going to want to spend researching possible vulnerabilities, including that you do not want to employ so much security or lack of back ups that you end up locking yourself out of your bitcoin.

It could be that no one is able to help you to get your bitcoins back if you have locked yourself out of your own bitcoin or you have engaged in some kind of vulnerability that causes another person to take your bitcoins from you, whether it is because you were sloppy and the maid found your private keys or you left them with your mom and she posted that “important” information on the fridge.

Of course, if you have NOT acquired certain high levels of wealth that make you feel vulnerable to have stored your BTC (or private keys) in ways that you might lose them or someone might get access to them, then you do not necessarily think about category 3 or 4 kinds of storage/backup until you believe that you have reached that level of wealth, which also could change with the passage of time.

Let's say, for example, in late 2015, you had accumulated about $8k in BTC, which you perceived to fit well underneath any kind of 3rd or 4th category threshold. In late 2015, BTC prices were around $250, so that would have been about 32 BTC... no big deal, right?

But then all of a sudden, over the next 2 years, your 32 BTC went from being valued at $8k, and they were valued at $630k towards the end of 2017 when BTC prices reached $19,666, and even today, with BTC prices around $7,750, your hypothetical 32BTC would be worth $248k, which is well into category 4, as I have framed those categories above.

So, yeah, even though in late 2015, you had thought that you had a reasonable amount of BTC that was being stored and backed up in ways that were sufficiently comfortable for you, and even though you thought that you had adequately thought through your security, risks and vulnerabilities, the rise in BTC prices should have reasonably triggered you to reconsider your security, your back ups and the risks that you are taking in your storage and/or backup means.
 
I did a quick search and Chainlink hasn't even been mentioned in this thread this year. Barely even the whole of last year. If anyone has any questions about Chainlink, fire away. I have participated in blockchain conferences around the world, written a thesis on the topic and followed the project's every move in detail for the past two years. It is the single most important thing happening in crypto right now. If there's interest, I am happy to indulge.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
Dachanin said:
I did a quick search and Chainlink hasn't even been mentioned in this thread this year. Barely even the whole of last year. If anyone has any questions about Chainlink, fire away. I have participated in blockchain conferences around the world, written a thesis on the topic and followed the project's every move in detail for the past two years. It is the single most important thing happening in crypto right now. If there's interest, I am happy to indulge.
This is the Bitcoin thread. Please read the title before posting. Thanks
 
Top