The Bitcoin (BTC) thread

Parmesan

Woodpecker
I would say its sort of like the whole lockdown, mask thing, where businesses are too scared to go against the government. But in some ways, I think bans would be a good thing. Large corporations close to the government would have to play by the rules, but rebellious small businesses would reap the rewards of taking bitcoin under the table. You can’t effectively ban bitcoin anyhow, as there is nothing centralized, or proprietary hardware to go after.
 

vstk

Pigeon
how governments can possibly “win” against Bitcoin
If holding bitcoin becomes illegal in all major countries (US, EU, Japan, UK), and actively prosecuted, then price goes down 99% without any problem.
game theory predictions that those governments who embrace it will have such overwhelming advantages
What advantage would that be? Governments cannot afford not to have a monopoly on currency. They won’t allow that to happen. Bitcoin has been pretty useless as a currency, otherwise I think it would have already been taken apart by FED and co.
 
The answer is simple: Bitcoin is a closed system. The price of Bitcoin itself can therefore only be measured in non-Bitcoin units that exist external to the system. It's like if you asked, "scorpion, how tall are you?" and I replied, "I am one scorpion tall." My answer would be correct, but completely useless to you in any practical sense because it is entirely self-referential. This is why Bitcoin by necessity requires measurement, and ultimately conversion, to some other currency. If Bitcoin cannot be converted to other currencies, then it cannot practically be measured in those currencies. And if it cannot be measured in those currencies, then its true value becomes undefinable, aka worthless.

The only way around this would be if Bitcoin was able to be used as an actual currency itself, being exchanged directly for goods. An intrinsic value could then be established based on its market purchasing power. The problem is that this is not realistic, and could very easily be shut down by governments simply passing a law making it illegal for businesses to transact in Bitcoin.
Yes, but are you assuming all 163 countries agree to declare it illegal to transact with, or just the G7? What if people and businesses move to El Salvador, Panama, and other countries that decide not to make it illegal, the US retaliates with sanctions, then bombs? This is my game theory question, that I can’t imagine every country agreeing to do this when the one that doesn’t will be more prosperous and powerful.
I believe many people, faced with Beijing Biden stealing from their retirement accounts and banning Bitcoin, would leave the US or die trying, rather than simply let it happen.
Personally, I would rather have worthless bitcoins, than allow any more of my time be stolen from me by an illegitimate ruling class.
 
If holding bitcoin becomes illegal in all major countries (US, EU, Japan, UK), and actively prosecuted, then price goes down 99% without any problem.

What advantage would that be? Governments cannot afford not to have a monopoly on currency. They won’t allow that to happen. Bitcoin has been pretty useless as a currency, otherwise I think it would have already been taken apart by FED and co.
If holding it were illegal in the US, I would not comply. If owning guns were made illegal, I would not comply. If the price went down 99%, I would buy more. Making it illegal would be the ultimate endorsement of legitimacy.

The US is the only government that has a monopoly on currency. Every other country has no such monopoly…well they do, but it doesn’t last very long, and after 3 or 4 hyperinflations they just use dollars, unless they pseudo peg their own currency to the dollar. You say they won’t allow it to happen, by what mechanism, that is my question. In what way do they prevent it from happening. Making gold illegal in 1933, executive order 6102, did not de-monetize gold. It went up in value. Making dollars non-redeemable for gold in 1971 did not make the price of gold crash, it went from $35 to $125 in 10 months.

It has been useful, extraordinarily so. I can pay for a Gab membership because of it, after all payment processors refused Gab. I can order Ivermectin from the third world when our own government is trying to kill me. I can get my money out of banks, into my control, where not only is it safe, but I can take it anywhere in the world, and am immune to civil asset forfeiture, and all other forms of theft. The uses are so profound, and more are discovered the more tyrannical governments become.
 
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scorpion

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Yes, but are you assuming all 163 countries agree to declare it illegal to transact with, or just the G7? What if people and businesses move to El Salvador, Panama, and other countries that decide not to make it illegal, the US retaliates with sanctions, then bombs? This is my game theory question, that I can’t imagine every country agreeing to do this when the one that doesn’t will be more prosperous and powerful.
How many businesses do you think are going to move to El Salvador or Panama if doing so means they can no longer access markets in the U.S., China and Europe? And yes, ultimately these issues can and will be settled with violence, when all else fails. Look what they did to Ghaddafi.

I believe many people, faced with Beijing Biden stealing from their retirement accounts and banning Bitcoin, would leave the US or die trying, rather than simply let it happen.
Personally, I would rather have worthless bitcoins, than allow any more of my time be stolen from me by an illegitimate ruling class.
This mindset is unfortunately very common in the crypto space, and is going to result in a lot of people losing all of their money. When you're making financial decisions based on ideological premises and unrealistic (borderline delusional) beliefs, you're in very dangerous territory. Is Bitcoin a legitimate long-term investment, or is it a way of sticking it to the man and escaping the system? It cannot simultaneously be both.
 
How many businesses do you think are going to move to El Salvador or Panama if doing so means they can no longer access markets in the U.S., China and Europe? And yes, ultimately these issues can and will be settled with violence, when all else fails. Look what they did to Ghaddafi.


This mindset is unfortunately very common in the crypto space, and is going to result in a lot of people losing all of their money. When you're making financial decisions based on ideological premises and unrealistic (borderline delusional) beliefs, you're in very dangerous territory. Is Bitcoin a legitimate long-term investment, or is it a way of sticking it to the man and escaping the system? It cannot simultaneously be both.
I have no desire to “stick it to the man”. If my house has been robbed, why shouldn’t I install an Alarm system with cameras? I just want to be left alone; this seems like a good tool to that end.
I know I may be delusional, that’s why I’m looking for the ”how they kill it” argument. I’m sure violence is/will be on the table. But how does that succeed when Bitcoin can’t be taken by force?
 

Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
There is a guy on the forum who has worked with banks. He said that the people in the banks don't know what to do about Bitcoin.

There is not much they can do about it, because virtually everything they do just makes people use it more:

Bitcoin is most used in countries that have:

a) banned it, suffocated it
b) adopted it
c) suffer from corruption
d) embraced it
e) have high incomes

Where Bitcoin is used the least - lower income countries where the government has done nothing about crypto and are not overly corrupt.

If governments want to create a prison or free economy - crypto wins in adoption.

There are numerous countries that have invested heavily in crypto. A few days ago UAE licenced crypto trading. The tiny country of Bahrain already has about 4-5 exchanges operating with government licence, zero tax and government anticipation. Crypto is the cornerstone of UAE's 10 year economic plan.

If the banking cartel want to go to war, they can, but it's like CRS. It has taken two decades to force that out. That is the nature of their scam. First they rope the compliant OECD core countries into their system and over years they lean out, to force other countries to comply. They have barely begun their back room planning about crypto.

A complete 100% anti-crypto stance doesn't make any sense to me. They are making a prison economy anyway. I'm going to hold the one thing they can't turn off, attach carbon credits to, geographically limit, inflate away, put an expiry date on etc.

I'll give them my crypto when the pry them from my cold storage wallet.
 

droughtmeat

Woodpecker
Yes, but are you assuming all 163 countries agree to declare it illegal to transact with, or just the G7? What if people and businesses move to El Salvador, Panama, and other countries that decide not to make it illegal, the US retaliates with sanctions, then bombs? This is my game theory question, that I can’t imagine every country agreeing to do this when the one that doesn’t will be more prosperous and powerful.
I believe many people, faced with Beijing Biden stealing from their retirement accounts and banning Bitcoin, would leave the US or die trying, rather than simply let it happen.
Personally, I would rather have worthless bitcoins, than allow any more of my time be stolen from me by an illegitimate ruling class.
I think the issue with simply moving to El Salvador is that if the US sees that a country like that is a legitimate threat, they will simply claim that El Salvador is a crypto hub that terrorists and right wing white supremacists are using to finance the [insert name of fictional right wing extremist terrorist group responsable for bombings in Crenshaw, Oakland, San Francisco and other areas with many blacks, LGBT etc.]. Therefore, it is America's duty to send their army there to rid the world of the crypto problem once and for all.
 

BURNΞR

Pelican
Almost every government wants to control crypto but it's like prohibition but much harder to regulate out of existance (we are talking about banning widespread technology here). China has banned mining and now transactions for Chinese nationals. The US has laid out their plans to make it illegal to have your own wallet and centralise custody in their banker hands. They want to make crypto exchanges and developers their deputised vassals, effectively inserting the government as a useless middleman in everything crypto.

Someone mentioned that the government would eventually declare war on crypto but it looks it is already happening. We are fast approaching the fight or flight moment and based on the demographics of people that actually own this stuff - millenial and zoomer men - I don't think half of these people are going to comply and go down with the ship. I can see most of them shrugging and leaving to more favorable countries that accept their money. I can see this working out. The people that stay behind in prison countries will get rekt. Key is to leave before they drag you down into their problems they created for themselves.
 
I think investors should start seeing El Salvador as a tax havens for cryptos

Many small island countries will legalise crypto and make their countries tax havens, this will be a way for them to generate income.

Countrues like El Salvador will soon experience a boom in real estate and tourism because more crypto millionaires will relocate there and invest in the local economy.
 
Almost every government wants to control crypto but it's like prohibition but much harder to regulate out of existance (we are talking about banning widespread technology here). China has banned mining and now transactions for Chinese nationals. The US has laid out their plans to make it illegal to have your own wallet and centralise custody in their banker hands. They want to make crypto exchanges and developers their deputised vassals, effectively inserting the government as a useless middleman in everything crypto.

Someone mentioned that the government would eventually declare war on crypto but it looks it is already happening. We are fast approaching the fight or flight moment and based on the demographics of people that actually own this stuff - millenial and zoomer men - I don't think half of these people are going to comply and go down with the ship. I can see most of them shrugging and leaving to more favorable countries that accept their money. I can see this working out. The people that stay behind in prison countries will get rekt. Key is to leave before they drag you down into their problems they created for themselves.
And with quackcine mandates, aggressive police, healthcare that doesn’t care if you die, and leftist violence…increasingly the 1st world is becoming far less attractive. I have a lucrative career that I can’t continue if I leave, but more and more I am planning my exit. I hope I have 6 - 8 years, but every month things seem to accelerate. Shitholes like El Salvador may improve as fast as the US is declining, and if Panama adopts then it’s almost a no brainer.
 

BURNΞR

Pelican
And with quackcine mandates, aggressive police, healthcare that doesn’t care if you die, and leftist violence…increasingly the 1st world is becoming far less attractive. I have a lucrative career that I can’t continue if I leave, but more and more I am planning my exit. I hope I have 6 - 8 years, but every month things seem to accelerate. Shitholes like El Salvador may improve as fast as the US is declining, and if Panama adopts then it’s almost a no brainer.

That's fine, you can still prepare an exit strategy. By having your net worth in crypto you are already half way there. Having a good career job in times like this is extremely valuable and ought to be milked until you can acquire FU money.
 
Well. We definitely have ourselves a nice little spike today. But the real spike today was in Nat Gas prices in Europe. Maybe bitcoin is finally becoming that energy inflation hedge. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever have a buying opportunity again like the last 3 months. Then again, there's always lots of head fakes.
 

budoslavic

Eagle
Orthodox
Gold Member


@balajis thread continued...
The BTC point is well debated. On the CCP point, Brose is the former Staff Director of the Senate Armed Services Committee. By his account he could see every line item of America's $700B defense budget, including confidential parts.

This is from his book.

FBMBzn8VcAUzwRl

...
As much as one might dislike the wokes, this fast approaching world will be topsy turvy in different ways.

Many won’t like an environment of aggressive Chinese nationalism or Mad Max-style anarcho-capitalism.

So we need to think now about establishing a decentralized center.

...
@RobertAFinlay
Replying to @balajis
Balaji what’s the end game here? The Woke are in the process of breaking our social and administrative structures, and the economy is likely next. The next 10 years look bleak.

@balajis: Wokes are nasty, but weak in key ways.

First, while CCP is lawful evil, wokes are chaotic evil. This limits them. They can do riots, they can’t plan invasions.

Second, they are facing strong pushback both inside and outside empire, from Miami & Texas to El Salvador & France.

Third, wokes rely entirely on soft power. Once they have no economic influence over a group, they have nothing left. So they are reduced to impotent pleading.

See their interaction with Taliban and CCP, but also France (AUKUS) and Germany (Nord Stream 2).

...
Basically, so long as you are within the same social network as the wokes, you are vulnerable. They’ll try to impose economic sanctions, i.e.- cancel you.

But once you are outside that they aren’t good at persuasion or building or fighting. So you are largely immune to them.

Jameson Lopp @lopp
Sep 28
"You need to achieve financial independence
in order to achieve ideological independence
in order to achieve collective independence."
- @balajis
...
Thus, the goal is to become completely independent of them in your social network supply chain. Do not befriend wokes, do not accept funds from them. Go global or rural, but go independent of them at all costs.

You reverse the direction of sanction: cancel them first.
 

cosine

Robin
Right now I'm holding my crypto in a mix between:
Celsius
Blockfi
Voyager
Gemini

I also have a tiny amount on Cash App. It's great to have interest payments from Celsius or Voyager, but I worry about security. Has anyone thoroughly evaluated these? It seems like having 2-3 of these seems more secure/easier than holding a Ledger wallet.

In particular, I'm considering putting it into Gemini and turning off the "earn" function, just looking for storage really.
 
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