The Bitcoin (BTC) thread

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
BTC transactions are slow, expensive and unreliable. That's why the government doesn't see it as a threat.
Compared to what?
Fedwire? Nope, BTC beats it in every metric.
Gold? Again, BTC is faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

Thats not really the point of it anyway…we don’t need a better PayPal, or Venmo. We need unconfiscateable private property. Sound money. The base layer, sound money, must come first. A transactional layer “currency” only comes after there is a solid base for it to stand on.
 
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Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
It's pretty hilarious and telling how you guys reflexively say that anyone who criticizes Bitcoin "has a blind spot" or "doesn't get it", as if it's utterly inconceivable that anyone could have an informed and yet negative opinion of Bitcoin. And this is not to single you all out, because this is the case with basically everyone in the Bitcoin sphere.
You make a catch all statement. In the example of Mr. Green there, he quite clearly either doesn't get it, or worse, he actively is lying about it (it's a security???). He by definition is not informed about it, according to the statements he made. I don't think you understand very well that you are a status quo thinker on this topic, and because of your belief that you don't think BTC will disrupt, or won't be "allowed" to, that you find it a ponzi. Then we point out that the status quo is a ponzi, and much, much worse to boot - which nullifies your points (thus making them not points at all).
The only "value" Bitcoin has lies in the ability to sell it in the future at a higher price than that which you paid.
Again, you repeat things people have said before that are logically incoherent. This statement applies to everything that people trade. It's just crazy to keep saying it when it's obviously the case for EVERYTHING.
The fact of the matter is that all of these pro-Bitcoin talking points you guys endlessly spout and reassure each other with are just rationalizations for a desire to make large amounts of money.
False. They are actually moral arguments, which we will get to. Since the topic is related to sound money, we will benefit from others slowly but surely understanding (thanks .gov!) that there actually is no other option. Quite a different way to think about it.
It's completely transparent that you sit here cheering for some sort of monetary collapse and reset to a BTC standard because you view this as the only way you're going to get ahead financially.
Why wouldn't I cheer for the demise of a repressive regime that debases money and on this basis also debases people with the political power that they get from money whoredom, or inducing it?
But at the end of the day, you're simply invested in (and promoting) a pyramid scheme, which creates no value and which relies entirely on new participants entering the market and purchasing Bitcoin to keep the price afloat.
Not really, you have it the other way around, but you can't see that yet. Why? You won't let yourself see what the unsound money actually is, for some reason.
The value of Bitcoin is that it can't be abused.
That's why this is as much moral issue than anything. And also true.
Once a BTC standard is established, then why would anyone want to move to one that can be debassed and syphoned out of, confiscated or turned off?
Check mate.
Think about covid, the System convinced regular people to deny you the ability to buy food if you didn't wear a mask. They refused medical care. If I can't use it to buy food, gas, medical supplies, what good is it?
As I said, this is profoundly moral argument. If you are ok with people stealing from you, trampling on your freedom, being whimsical and putting pressure on you to lie about life, debase your way of being, and even inject your children or you yourself, by all means eschew BTC and keep pumping up the USD or whatever other asset class you claim isn't "a ponzi."

It's hard to kick at the goads. There's one path here that is clear, and it will win out, but there will be trying times in the meantime, precisely because the other systems which you are tacitly supporting also see BTC for what it is. And that should tell you a lot.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Tipping the balance of civilization:
1) feudalism gave way to nation states, when gunpowder made fielding the larger army more important than having the best knights
2) control of the sea became pivotal in controlling a global empire, culminating in the dreadnaughts of WW1
3) control of the air in WW2 rendered dreadnaughts as useful as cavalry against machine guns in WW1
4) nuclear missiles decided which countries could never be invaded, and rendered huge fleets of bombers obsolete
5) information is the new atom bomb. who controls it controls the world. Bitcoin is immutable, incorruptible, information. No human, government, or Artificial intelligence can manipulate it, steal it, or change it. It is the ultimate defense in the new battlefield.
 
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bucky

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Agreed, most do not perceive the threat. Most are too old, with crystallized intelligence unable to adapt to this new paradigm. It takes a younger brain. The Popes and Cardinals had no idea that Gutenbergs printing press would diminish the power of the church from nearly all powerful, to almost no power, in a generation. Centralized knowledge became decentralized. Concentrated power gave way to individual autonomy. From the ashes arose the free-est, wealthiest nation the world has ever known.

Why is it terrible?

Probably true, but can anyone legitimately claim they are worse off now versus 3 years ago?
I've wondered about this too, to what extent El Sal really has turned things around. I absolutely loved it as a single guy on surf trips, but it wasn't the kind of place where I'd want to raise a family. I'd want to know more before seriously considering moving down there with my wife and kids.
 

Gimlet

Pelican
As I said, this is profoundly moral argument. If you are ok with people stealing from you, trampling on your freedom, being whimsical and putting pressure on you to lie about life, debase your way of being, and even inject your children or you yourself, by all means eschew BTC and keep pumping up the USD or whatever other asset class you claim isn't "a ponzi."

What are you talking about? I own bitcoin. I have stated that clearly, multiple times. Why do you guys flip out every time someone notes a potential downside? Calm down. I think it is wise to hedge, no reason to freak out if you disagree and have all your assets in BTC.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
What are you talking about? I own bitcoin. I have stated that clearly, multiple times. Why do you guys flip out every time someone notes a potential downside? Calm down. I think it is wise to hedge, no reason to freak out if you disagree and have all your assets in BTC.
It’s hard to convey the nuance of real discussion online. I don’t think anyone is freaking out. @Blade Runner and I don’t see it as a hedge or an investment, but as a Schelling Point in human civilization, that will drain power away from the organized crime of central government, and allow individuals to project more power than they currently can. Wealth will flow out of the government systems, into the private one, just as it has for the last decade.

@Gimlet and @zoom are looking at Bitcoin from the old paradigm, which I appreciate. We want our ideas challenged, it hones them. I am not dismissing your criticisms, merely offering evidence to the contrary of them.

@zoom , the evidence doesn’t support your claim of slow, expensive, and unreliable…what else can send $500M, anywhere in the world, in less than an hour, for $20? Nothing but Bitcoin
@Gimlet , you claim it will be worthless when government outlaws it, yet claim people freely traded in gold when it was outlawed.
 
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chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
I just looked at a BTC fee calculator. If you want your transaction confirmed within two blocks (around 20 minutes time) then the fee is around $7.64.
So today you can move $1 billion of value, instantly, anywhere in the world, for the price of a happy meal. Moving it with banks? Probably thousands if not tens of thousands, and hours or days, if the money is allowed to move at all. Try moving that money from the US to Russia, or Iran. Gold even slower and costlier, maybe $5M and weeks, to move that much (4 metric tons) of gold.
 
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scorpion

Pelican
Gold Member
You make a catch all statement. In the example of Mr. Green there, he quite clearly either doesn't get it, or worse, he actively is lying about it (it's a security???). He by definition is not informed about it, according to the statements he made. I don't think you understand very well that you are a status quo thinker on this topic, and because of your belief that you don't think BTC will disrupt, or won't be "allowed" to, that you find it a ponzi. Then we point out that the status quo is a ponzi, and much, much worse to boot - which nullifies your points (thus making them not points at all).
No offense, but your replies demonstrate that you possess a shallow and limited understanding of finance. Everything that Mr. Green said in the video (which I will post below so others can watch) was on point. Specifically, he was referring to the way Bitcoin currently trades and operates as meeting the criteria to successfully pass the Howey Test, which would categorize it as a security rather than a currency. And given that the entire rationale behind Bitcoin and HODLing is that it will continue to go up (like a security, not a currency) he is absolutely correct.



Again, you repeat things people have said before that are logically incoherent. This statement applies to everything that people trade. It's just crazy to keep saying it when it's obviously the case for EVERYTHING.
Again, you reveal your very limited understanding of financial instruments. There is inherent value in things like stock, bonds and real estate, because they generate returns separate from the point of sale, in the form of dividends, coupon payments and rents. Bitcoin generates no such returns, and its value is entirely dependent on finding someone else in the future to pay more for it than you did.

False. They are actually moral arguments, which we will get to. Since the topic is related to sound money, we will benefit from others slowly but surely understanding (thanks .gov!) that there actually is no other option. Quite a different way to think about it.
You're demonstrating perfectly the religious nature of Bitcoin. You view this as literally akin to spreading the Gospel and slowly enlightening the masses as to the advantages of sound money. This is not say you are morally wrong, or that there are not problems with the status quo. But you should at least be honest with yourself and recognize your own thinking in this regard.

Why wouldn't I cheer for the demise of a repressive regime that debases money and on this basis also debases people with the political power that they get from money whoredom, or inducing it?
See above in regards to the religious fanaticism inherent in Bitcoin. You sound very much like one of the early 20th century communists, who were convinced that utopia could be ushered in with the abolition of private property, except in this case, social and economic salvation will come from Bitcoin. I regret to inform you that your zeal is misplaced, and that Bitcoin is not some financial panacea. Your anger and dissatisfaction with the status quo - which is certainly justified, in many regards - does not automatically imply that Bitcoin is the ideal solution. You are engaged in wishful thinking that has blinded you to the harsh realities of the world you live in, and to the significant problems with Bitcoin as a potential solution to the problems you've identified.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
@scorpion What are the significant problems of Bitcoin?

One of the many problems with Green’s understanding, is that he conflates “crypto” with Bitcoin, when they are opposites. Claiming that Bitcoin is a security makes as much sense as claiming that Gold is a security. What is the “inherent value” of gold. Of dollars? Bitcoin isn’t a a stock, and it’s not an apartment building. It is scarcity that leverages humans unique drive to collect things that we think other humans will also want to collect. Shells —> rai stones —> glass beads —> gold —> government money —> BTC. None of these other things “produces” anything. It enables human cooperation, organization, and information for people to produce things, and for civilization to be possible.

In the past we used physical things to represent the abstraction of money. It turns out, that physical nature is a disadvantage in many ways. It is slow, insecure, and costly to transact. BTC is orders of magnitude better in all of those properties.

Government money removed the physical nature of money, and allowed it to move faster, but governments could now counterfeit their own money and thereby steal from everyone who used it.

If a currency‘s supply was fixed, it would go up in value, forever. People get more efficient, more clever at producing everything with less time and less resources, over time. 1 man can farm 600 acres with a few gallons of diesel and a tractor. 200 years ago, that would take hundreds of slaves, and a lot of the productivity of the farm used just to support them.

If the supply of dollars were fixed, gas would be $.05/gal, and electricity would be $.01/kWh

priced in a currency of fixed supply, like BTC, everything gets cheaper, forever…it isnt because a “greater fool” comes along, it’s because humans get better at doing everything, all the time

If people have the option of using money that gets more valuable over time, or a money that buys less over time, which monetary network will they join? If Argentines had the option of banking with USD or the Peso, which would they choose?

You are looking at the finish line for proof of success…a transactional “currency” that is used as a unit of account and medium of exchange. That won’t happen and can’t happen until Bitcoin becomes the dominant money. That will take time, probably decades. I think a way to preserve wealth, a savings account for this generation, is still a success, even if it is not a “currency”.
 
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scorpion

Pelican
Gold Member
chance vought: the flaw in your understanding of Bitcoin is that, as I've pointed to you previously, you simultaneously award it the advantages of BOTH a currency and a speculative asset, while assigning it the drawbacks of neither.

The fundamental problem with Bitcoin as an asset is that it is inherently a pyramid scheme, which produces no returns and relies entirely on the greater fool to buy it at a higher price.

The fundamental problem with Bitcoin as a currency is that it is deflationary by nature, which eliminates its usefulness as a medium of exchange (and which also greatly limits the incentive of people to invest their Bitcoin in productive endeavors to generate a return). Given that all real wealth is derived from productive investment, it isn't difficult to understand that a deflationary currency like Bitcoin would, over time, severely curtail economic activity, resulting in a much poorer society, in which people would be encouraged to hoard money rather than spend and invest it.

You continue to demonstrate the sort of utopian thinking in regards to Bitcoin that I pointed out earlier. Just because there are problems with the current economic model does NOT mean that Bitcoin is the preferred solution. Just because it's different does not mean it's better. As I've pointed out before, for all of its many flaws, fiat currency has served to build the modern world we enjoy. In contrast, crypto and Bitcoin have built nothing except a series of pump and dump schemes over the past decade and a half, and have driven zero transformative innovation that affects the life of the average person.

"But scorpion, now people in third world countries can send money to each other for free!" you say, to which I respond: is that literally the best you can do? Seriously? That's the game-changing technology you guys unironically compare to electricity, the printing press and the internet? Allowing the poorest people in the world to exchange pennies with each other? Give me a break.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
chance vought: the flaw in your understanding of Bitcoin is that, as I've pointed to you previously, you simultaneously award it the advantages of BOTH a currency and a speculative asset, while assigning it the drawbacks of neither.
It has those properties to some degree, and in some ways it is neither. You are trying to describe something new, without a category, in terms of something else. An indian chief trying to describe Cortez's rifle in the terms of a spear. Bitcoin can be used as an asset, a currency, uncensorable speech, and many things we have not come up with yet...just as the piston pump of 1800 became a steam engine, a locomotive, to an internal combustion engine powered airplane.
The fundamental problem with Bitcoin as an asset is that it is inherently a pyramid scheme, which produces no returns and relies entirely on the greater fool to buy it at a higher price.
Gold? Seemed to work fine for a long history of civilization.
The fundamental problem with Bitcoin as a currency is that it is deflationary by nature, which eliminates its usefulness as a medium of exchange (and which also greatly limits the incentive of people to invest their Bitcoin in productive endeavors to generate a return).
So, in order to have a productive society, theft is required. This goes against God's command...in fact all of them. All ten commandments are derivatives of 1: Thou shalt not steal. Murder is the theft of another's property -- their life. What level of theft is required for us to have a productive society? 7%?
Given that all real wealth is derived from productive investment, it isn't difficult to understand that a deflationary currency like Bitcoin would, over time, severely curtail economic activity, resulting in a much poorer society, in which people would be encouraged to hoard money rather than spend and invest it.
Forcing people to invest, under penalty of theft, does not allocate capital as efficiently as if they did it voluntarily. How is that working now? Blackrock and Vangard get millions of stolen shareholder votes, from the millions of people who's stocks they are custodians for. Voting for ESG and woke non-sense, to the detriment of shareholders. Destroying productivity and wealth, not increasing it.
You continue to demonstrate the sort of utopian thinking in regards to Bitcoin that I pointed out earlier. Just because there are problems with the current economic model does NOT mean that Bitcoin is the preferred solution. Just because it's different does not mean it's better. As I've pointed out before, for all of its many flaws, fiat currency has served to build the modern world we enjoy. In contrast, crypto and Bitcoin have built nothing except a series of pump and dump schemes over the past decade and a half, and have driven zero transformative innovation that affects the life of the average person.
Fiat has driven no innovation. All of our technology comes from the 19th century. The 20th century, while the best time in history to be alive until then, was also the most deadly. More people killed in the 20th than the rest of history combined.

Inviolable private property, among other things...how is that not transformative?
"But scorpion, now people in third world countries can send money to each other for free!" you say, to which I respond: is that literally the best you can do? Seriously? That's the game-changing technology you guys unironically compare to electricity, the printing press and the internet? Allowing the poorest people in the world to exchange pennies with each other? Give me a break.
No, that isn't the innovation. This isn't a new PayPal, this is property that cannot be taken. In nature there is only 1 way to protect property: threat of force, or actual force. A bear can growl at another bear as it approaches a kill. If the other bear persists, they fight.

Humans have a big brain. We can threaten force, use force, or negotiate. A negotiation requires trust, that once we agree, you won't violate my property. Once the property becomes extremely valuable, and trust is high, the advantage to a person who is willing to violate trust becomes greater and greater. The only way to prevent that person from violating the property, is to threaten force, or use force.

People have trusted government with money, and government continues to violate the agreement. Bitcoin is the use of force against that violation of property. Until Bitcoin, there was no way for an individual to use force against the violator of trust, but now there is. That is the innovation.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Fiat inflation does drive consumption. We are strip mining the planet to make plastic garbage and "fast fashion", because no one wants to hold the currency. Wasting precious resources that cannot be replaced...this is the fiat world.

With deflationary money, people only buy what they need. They curtail consumption. We think long and hard about purchases, and buy quality things that last, instead of shopping sprees and impulse buys. Living on Bitcoin makes you really think about that next purchase, because it will be cheaper next year, 10x cheaper, then 100x cheaper. That won't last forever, but what if things were 5% cheaper every year? Even 2% cheaper? Every year, compounded. How much more efficient and "green" would our civilization be? No one is forcing you to cut spending or not buy things, its voluntary. I can have more, if I wait to buy this.

There is a limit to how long people will wait: this is called time preference. Eventually, you die. You can save your money for a long time, but eventually, there is a point where it makes no sense to delay that vacation, or that new TV, or new car: eventually, you will die. Civilization doesn't grind to a halt when we have sound money; most people will not choose to live in a trailer and live on hot pockets until they die, in order to save money. They will choose to spend their precious money on things that they really want, rather than things they are told to want.

During covid, look at what happened: an abundance of money, led to a scarcity of everything else. What if there were a scarce money? Abundance, of everything else.
 
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chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Q: Why was money printing and stimulus checks “necessary” during Covid?
A: Most people don’t have savings.

Q: Why don’t people have savings?
A: Saving is discouraged, and eventually impossible, when the money has a half-life of 15 years…in the best of cases, like the USD. Other places, it might be 10 years, or 1 year. Over 1 working lifetime, 80% of one’s savings are stolen, not including taxes, just the inflation tax.

Deflationary money encourages saving, there is less need of a safety net. People can take care of themselves.
 

scorpion

Pelican
Gold Member
Can anyone think of another example of a supposedly "world-changing" technology that existed for well over a decade, which spread all over the world and became known to every curious and intelligent person, but which accomplished essentially nothing in that time except to separate people from their money? Because that's the story of Bitcoin thus far. When contrasted with every other great invention of mankind, it falls laughably and pathetically short.

chance vought, you continue to speak of Bitcoin in utopian, borderline theological language. There is no debating a zealot. You believe all of this as an article of faith. You believe that Bitcoin has the power to transform the economy of the entire world, despite having no compelling evidence that it will do so besides flowery language. In contrast, in defense of fiat (a flawed but useful tool), I present as my argument the entire modern world. It exists. It's a workable system that somehow manages the productive labor of billions of people and distributes goods and services across the entire globe. There's absolutely room for improvement, but there's utterly no reason to believe that Bitcoin is the answer any more than than Litecoin or Ethereum or some unknown future cryptocurrency.

It's difficult to talk about money because at the end of the day, money is essentially nothing more than a collective social fiction. It's a story we all tell ourselves. "This piece of paper has value. This collection of 1s and 0s has value." But none of it is real, in either case. It's just a tool we use to fairly track and allocate resources and labor. And ultimately, civilization depends on the efficient allocation of resources and labor to survive and thrive. Money is just the means by which we do so, and the fiat system has proven itself capable of efficiently allocating the resources and labor we rely upon to maintain our complex modern civilization. Bitcoin has no track record, and in its short existence has offered not even a compelling glimpse of potential in this regard. Rather, it has served entirely as a vehicle of speculation and greed, carrying along with it an assortment of religious fanatics who continue to tirelessly hail it as the monetary messiah.


Fiat has driven no innovation. All of our technology comes from the 19th century.
What? This is completely nonsensical. May I remind you that you are typing on a computer and posting on the internet right now. To say nothing of a thousand other 20th century innovations you apparently take for granted on a daily basis.

Until Bitcoin, there was no way for an individual to use force against the violator of trust, but now there is
This is also completely nonsensical. There was never previously a way for individuals to use force against governments? What do you think revolutions are? On a more limited scale, what do you think terrorism/assassinations are? Do these things not exist in your mind? Did you accidentally delete them from your brain somehow, along with the entire list of 20th century inventions?
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Can anyone think of another example of a supposedly "world-changing" technology that existed for well over a decade, which spread all over the world and became known to every curious and intelligent person, but which accomplished essentially nothing in that time except to separate people from their money? Because that's the story of Bitcoin thus far. When contrasted with every other great invention of mankind, it falls laughably and pathetically short.
I met your arguments with logic, not flowery language. You think that the supposed innovation is a payment processing system, like apple pay. You are correct in pointing out that, in fact, that is not an innovation. I explained one of the many transformative innovations, is inviolable private property. To this point, you do not have a counter argument, because there is no counter.
chance vought, you continue to speak of Bitcoin in utopian, borderline theological language. There is no debating a zealot. You believe all of this as an article of faith. You believe that Bitcoin has the power to transform the economy of the entire world, despite having no compelling evidence that it will do so besides flowery language. In contrast, in defense of fiat (a flawed but useful tool), I present as my argument the entire modern world. It exists. It's a workable system that somehow manages the productive labor of billions of people and distributes goods and services across the entire globe. There's absolutely room for improvement, but there's utterly no reason to believe that Bitcoin is the answer any more than than Litecoin or Ethereum or some unknown future cryptocurrency.
Yes, I can't show you that it has succeeded, until it succeeds. What is that point? When Bitcoin is worth more than gold, or when it is worth more than the dollar? At what point to you admit that it works, and makes things better?

Some generals couldn't be convinced that machine guns would change battlefield tactics, until they charged, headlong into them. Or fixed fortifications were useless against mechanized infantry and airplanes.

The battle is just beginning, and we shall see.
It's difficult to talk about money because at the end of the day, money is essentially nothing more than a collective social fiction. It's a story we all tell ourselves. "This piece of paper has value. This collection of 1s and 0s has value." But none of it is real, in either case. It's just a tool we use to fairly track and allocate resources and labor. And ultimately, civilization depends on the efficient allocation of resources and labor to survive and thrive.
Think more about what money is. Once you have a better understanding of what it is, and how it came about, it is easier to see what makes good money, and what is inferior money. Hard money will impoverish those who cling to soft money. Glass beads vs gold. Money is 1/2 of every transaction, so although it is a human fiction, it is an extremely important one. Fairly track. Bitcoin does this job perfectly. Fiat does not.

Resource allocation should be done by the market, not by government. The USSR did this to one extreme and had perpetual empty shelves. Western Civ still does it, but to a lesser degree. Still, if there were no government allocation, only market allocation, we would be much wealthier.
Money is just the means by which we do so, and the fiat system has proven itself capable of efficiently allocating the resources and labor we rely upon to maintain our complex modern civilization. Bitcoin has no track record, and in its short existence has offered not even a compelling glimpse of potential in this regard. Rather, it has served entirely as a vehicle of speculation and greed, carrying along with it an assortment of religious fanatics who continue to tirelessly hail it as the monetary messiah.
Bitcoin is a fair system, vs the fiat system, which is systemic theft. People voluntarily use Bitcoin because it has rules, and everyone must follow them. The current system has changeable rules, which benefit a select few, while everyone else suffers systemic theft.
Speculation and greed is not an argument. There is a system of rules, which everyone must follow, and a system of theft.
What? This is completely nonsensical. May I remind you that you are typing on a computer and posting on the internet right now. To say nothing of a thousand other 20th century innovations you apparently take for granted on a daily basis.
The computer: 19th century, the Difference Engine. Electronic general purpose computer is a 20th century invention, but is an improvement on an existing technology. It was not an innovation. Aviation, the auto, rapid transportation (rail), instant communications, electricity, wireless communication...all of these things are 19th century technology that made the world unrecognizable to a person from just 100 years before. It would appear as magic. Our world is not so revolutionary. Take a person from 1913, into 2023, and they would know nearly every technology that we have. Oh, here's an airplane, a bit faster, but its a plane. Here's an automobile, a radio with pictures, a telegraph that uses words, how nice....all of the real innovation...from 0 to 1, happened on a gold standard, not on fiat.
This is also completely nonsensical. There was never previously a way for individuals to use force against governments? What do you think revolutions are?
Yes, but what is the success rate of armed revolutions? You need a group, and you may end up dead. How do you stop government theft of 7% per year, or higher? You can join a revolutionary group that opts out of that system, doesn't pay the beast, year after year. A system of rules, where theft is impossible.
On a more limited scale, what do you think terrorism/assassinations are? Do these things not exist in your mind? Did you accidentally delete them from your brain somehow, along with the entire list of 20th century inventions?
Does terrorism or assassination protect your private property? If you bomb the Fed, or the IRS, does that protect your private property? It exacts a cost on the violator of the contract of trust, but the cost is far to low for it to have the desired effect. If you are in a fight with the other bear over your elk carcas, biting the other bear on the ear is using force, but it isn't enough force to tilt the risk/reward calculation for the other bear to go away. The bear needs to exact a heavy penalty on the interloper, draw blood and break bones, before the life saving calories are no longer worth the injury sustained.

A few terrorist attacks or assassinations are nothing to a behemoth entity like the federal government. The level of force required to get the result you want would be the complete overthrow of the government...and even then, the theft continues, just different thieves.

Bitcoin is like having a nuke in your attic, and being willing to use it. No amount of force can confiscate it, or keep it from moving from person to person. The more people that join, the more neutered government becomes. Its not a magic bullet, it is voluntary. People volunteer to join the revolution, or they don't...its just another tool, a very important one, that enables the revolution that needs to happen.

I'm not trying to convince you to own Bitcoin. Anyone over age 60, is probably never going to be able to see it, to build a mental model of what it actually is...which is fine. People over a certain age don't really need it. If a person is curious, and thinks there is a chance they should try to see what this thing is, they need to touch it. A coinbase account is not touching it. Owning Bitcoin, taking custody of it, memorizing the 12 words, is touching it. Truly owning something for the first time is touching, and step 1 of understanding what the heck this is, really.

If I sound religious, it is because I'm trying to describe something using language that wasn't made to describe it, using metaphors etc. That's the only way to explain new concepts, in terms of other things. Bible stories are no different. Complex truths told using relatable stories and metaphors.
 
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murphykj930

Robin
Buddhist / Eastern
Bitcoin is like having a nuke in your attic, and being willing to use it. No amount of force can confiscate it, or keep it from moving from person to person. The more people that join, the more neutered government becomes.
Bitcoin is like a nuke until an actual nuke goes off and shuts off all your electricity. After which, you have no way to exchange bitcoin for anything. Meanwhile, you could take a cow and turn it into food, clothing, use it for dairy, farming, etc. Even gold, at least you could turn it into jewelry, and it has some use in hardware. Bitcoin? What good is it if you don’t live in some big city with electricity most likely subsidized by the government.
 

Gimlet

Pelican
Bitcoin is based on fiat. It is valued in fiat, and is traded in fiat. It is sold for fiat, and occasionally traded for a small amount of goods that are valued in fiat. The hip pizzeria will take bitcoin. Will that change? Maybe. I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It's great to have a nuke in your attic, but if you don't use it because you think it will have more power in the future, what is the point? It is nothing until used, and for now it is used in exchange for fiat. It is speculative. It is a tulip promoted by the evangelicals of bitcoin, as we see on this thread.
 
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