The Bitcoin (BTC) thread

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Bitcoin is based on fiat. It is valued in fiat, and is traded in fiat. It is sold for fiat, and occasionally traded for a small amount of goods that are valued in fiat. The hip pizzeria will take bitcoin. Will that change? Maybe. I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It's great to have a nuke in your attic, but if you don't use it because you think it will have more power in the future, what is the point? It is nothing until used, and for now it is used in exchange for fiat. It is speculative. It is a tulip promoted by the evangelicals of bitcoin, as we see on this thread.
Its nice that your money works, for now. What if you lived in Argentina, or Turkey? What if the money didn't work. I have used it, to buy ivermectin from overseas when no other form of payment went through. So even I, in the most privileged fiat currency regime, had a need for, and use case, for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin won't be spent like dollars, until the dollar goes away. Until most people are using it, it doesn't really serve that purpose.

Why do people own gold? Is it to transact with? No, they own it as a shield against currency debasement. That is one use for Bitcoin, but one of many...as a savings account.

How many years must it exist for you to say it is not a tulip mania? 20, 50, 100 years? Is there ever a condition where you can say it succeeds? Where would you draw the finish line? So far it is doing exactly what it was built to do, process transactions every 10 minutes, without censorship, and enforcing the rules that everyone agrees to.

@Gimlet you claim to own Bitcoin, but do you, really? Or do you have an IOU from an exchange?
 

Gimlet

Pelican
Its nice that your money works, for now. What if you lived in Argentina, or Turkey? What if the money didn't work. I have used it, to buy ivermectin from overseas when no other form of payment went through. So even I, in the most privileged fiat currency regime, had a need for, and use case, for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin won't be spent like dollars, until the dollar goes away. Until most people are using it, it doesn't really serve that purpose.

Why do people own gold? Is it to transact with? No, they own it as a shield against currency debasement. That is one use for Bitcoin, but one of many...as a savings account.

How many years must it exist for you to say it is not a tulip mania? 20, 50, 100 years? Is there ever a condition where you can say it succeeds? Where would you draw the finish line? So far it is doing exactly what it was built to do, process transactions every 10 minutes, without censorship, and enforcing the rules that everyone agrees to.

@Gimlet you claim to own Bitcoin, but do you, really? Or do you have an IOU from an exchange?

You are being an evangelical again. You aren't having an honest discussion, but that is ok. I already said I own precious metals, bitcoin, and yes I have cash as well as "things I can trade" and property. I am not pro cash. I have more outside of fiat money.

I am glad you brought up whether I own Bitcoin in an exchange, because last night I was thinking about your claim that the Canadian Truckers were saved by bitcoin donations. I have heard that, but I don't think that is true. You see, Ontario jammed the cell phones in addition to cutting off bank accounts. So to claim the truckers were saved by bitcoin donations, you are claiming they all had cold wallets at the ready. I doubt that. I only know 1 person (out of 100) other than myself with a cold wallet. Yes I own bitcoin in a cold wallet. Did the truckers? I doubt it. More likely the donations were scammed. How did bitcoin save the day for them?
 
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chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
You are being an evangelical again. You aren't having an honest discussion, but that is ok. I already said I own precious metals, bitcoin, and yes I have cash as well as "things I can trade" and property. I am not pro cash. I have more outside of fiat money.

I am glad you brought up whether I own Bitcoin in an exchange, because last night I was thinking about your claim that the Canadian Truckers were saved by bitcoin donations. I have heard that, but I don't think that is true. You see, Ontario jammed the cell phones in addition to cutting off bank accounts. So to claim the truckers were saved by bitcoin donations, you are claiming they all had cold wallets at the ready. I doubt that. I only know 1 person (out of 100) other than myself with a cold wallet. Yes I own bitcoin in a cold wallet. Did the truckers? I doubt it. More likely the donations were scammed. How did bitcoin save the day for them?
I never said they were “saved”, I said it was the only money from a world wide coordinated fundraising effort that ever reached them. Volunteers in Ottawa went truck to truck, with envelopes containing instructions on how to use an included seed phrase to recover the wallet and the funds. No cell phone needed, just a simple envelope. I think they each had about $8k worth of BTC. Did it provide them with diesel fuel, or food? No, but it muted some of the financial hit they all took by volunteering their time for the convoy.

Which point was I dishonest about, exactly?
 
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Gimlet

Pelican
I never said they were “saved”, I said it was the only money from a world wide coordinated fundraising effort that ever reached them. Volunteers in Ottawa went truck to truck, with envelopes containing instructions on how to use an included seed phrase to recover the wallet and the funds. No cell phone needed, just a simple envelope. I think they each had about $8k worth of BTC.

Which point was I dishonest about, exactly?

How did they recover the wallet with the seed phrase? What wallet? Did they have cold wallets? I find that hard to believe. And phones weren't working.

I should not have used the words "not having an honest discussion", I apologize. You are being honest about your convictions. I meant you are an evangelical who refuses to see a downside.

You have a lot of enthusiasm, and I know you think I am old fashioned and naive (thus your assumption I have bitcoin on Coinbase etc) but I would give you one piece of advice. Ignore me if you don't want to read it.

I suspect you are a young man. Stick with bitcoin as you believe in it, but develop a skill in which you can get paid (barter) if the grid goes down for a few days or more. For a month. Even if you don't use it, its a good use of your enthusiasm and convictions.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
How did they recover the wallet with the seed phrase? What wallet? Did they have cold wallets? I find that hard to believe. And phones weren't working.

I should not have used the words "not having an honest discussion", I apologize. You are being honest about your convictions. I meant you are an evangelical who refuses to see a downside.
I enjoy a robust discussion. Thank you. You don’t need an electronic device to own Bitcoin, just 12 words. A sheet of paper is a cold wallet. There were instructions on how to use the seed to recover to a mobile wallet (Blue wallet I think). I can hand you a sheet of paper with the private key, or the seed phrase, and I have given you Bitcoin.

The phone or the hardware wallet never has Bitcoin, it’s just a good way to store the private key. The private key gives you control of your part of the ledger…your Bitcoin exists on tens of thousands of nodes around the world.

I am trying to see the downside, the weakness…what is it?
You have a lot of enthusiasm, and I know you think I am old fashioned and naive (thus your assumption I have bitcoin on Coinbase etc) but I would give you one piece of advice. Ignore me if you don't want to read it.
I‘m pleasantly surprised! That is excellent, did you self custody for the same reasons as owning precious metals?
I suspect you are a young man. Stick with bitcoin as you believe in it, but develop a skill in which you can get paid (barter) if the grid goes down for a few days or more. For a month. Even if you don't use it, its a good use of your enthusiasm and convictions.
If the grid goes down for a month, there won’t be barter. There will be people with guns, and friends with guns, and everyone else. Barter is a complete fiction, that never existed…it was a theory from when economics was less understood. Barter is so hoplessly inefficient, it is useless in any sort of society, even a small one. Meeting the coincidence of wants began with social credit, followed by mathematics and actual credit, followed by monetary goods.

Ever tried to trade at a gun show, with no money, just a gun? Thousands of people in one place for the sole purpose of buying and selling guns, yet have you ever traded 1 gun for another, with no cash? And those are similar goods! If you need a truck tire, are you going to trade a case of ammo for a pallet of strawberries, in the hope that the tire guy really likes strawberries? You could spend 15 hrs of every day trying to trade for a series of things to get the one thing you need, meanwhile not doing anything productive, like actual work. Without money civilization collapses.

Skills will be useful in the grid down scenario, the most useful being the application of violence.
 
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Gimlet

Pelican
I enjoy a robust discussion. Thank you. You don’t need an electronic device to own Bitcoin, just 12 words. A sheet of paper is a cold wallet. There were instructions on how to use the seed to recover to a mobile wallet (Blue wallet I think). I can hand you a sheet of paper with the private key, or the seed phrase, and I have given you Bitcoin.

The phone or the hardware wallet never has Bitcoin, it’s just a good way to store the private key. The private key gives you control of your part of the ledger…your Bitcoin exists on tens of thousands of nodes around the world.

I am trying to see the downside, the weakness…what is it?

I‘m pleasantly surprised! That is excellent, did you self custody for the same reasons as owning precious metals?

If the grid goes down for a month, there won’t be barter. There will be people with guns, and friends with guns, and everyone else. Barter is a complete fiction, that never existed…it was a theory from when economics was less understood. Barter is so hoplessly inefficient, it is useless in any sort of society, even a small one. Meeting the coincidence of wants began with social credit, followed by mathematics and actual credit, followed by monetary goods.

Ever tried to trade at a gun show, with no money, just a gun? Thousands of people in one place for the sole purpose of buying and selling guns, yet have you ever traded 1 gun for another, with no cash? And those are similar goods! If you need a truck tire, are you going to trade a case of ammo for a pallet of strawberries, in the hope that the tire guy really likes strawberries? You could spend 15 hrs of every day trying to trade for a series of things to get the one thing you need, meanwhile not doing anything productive, like actual work. Without money civilization collapses.

Skills will be useful in the grid down scenario, the most useful being the application of violence.

Earlier you said bitcoin saved the day for the truckers. Again how? How did they take the seed phrase and trade it for gas? They didn't.

I and others have already said the downsides. You don't agree so I guess you don't remember. Fair enough

I self custodied for the same reason I own precious metals and keep little cash in the bank: I don't trust the Jays.

If the grid goes down for a month, of course there will be barter. I will fix your old rusty bicycle and you will give me veggies from your garden. I don't know why you think we will all be crowding around the gun shop.

Last month talked about trading a silver round for pizza & beer: Barter is normal.

Anecdote on use of silver as currency: I have a decent amount of silver, including silver rounds. Twice within the last 2 months I have offered a round to someone in lieu of a small cash debt, about $30. Both times, the guy (neither are silver stackers) eagerly said yes.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Earlier you said bitcoin saved the day for the truckers. Again how? How did they take the seed phrase and trade it for gas? They didn't.
No, I said it was the only money that reached them. Post #11,072 in this thread, read my original words. It was a real-world demonstration of the unstoppable nature of it…the government tried and failed to stop it, including kicking in doors. The truckers got sums of money from around the world to replace what they had to forgo in order to protest. The savings of most people gets quickly depleted from not working for a month.
I and others have already said the downsides. You don't agree so I guess you don't remember. Fair enough
Name one to jog my memory.
I self custodied for the same reason I own precious metals and keep little cash in the bank: I don't trust the Jays.

If the grid goes down for a month, of course there will be barter. I will fix your old rusty bicycle and you will give me veggies from your garden. I don't know why you think we will all be crowding around the gun shop.

Last month talked about trading a silver round for pizza & beer: Barter is normal.
Silver is a monetary good…I don’t consider that barter, its money.
 
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you guys calling chance vought "evangelical" and "utopian, just like the communists!" as if it were some kind fault... you fail to recognize that communism and evangelicalism are huge movements that have completely changed the world. Anything that can inspire people to such zealotry is obviously powerful and has a lot of potential (and is unlikely to go to zero).
 

Going strong

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Gold Member
If the grid goes down for a month, of course there will be barter. I will fix your old rusty bicycle and you will give me veggies from your garden. I don't know why you think we will all be crowding around the gun shop.

If the "grid goes down", it'll be too late to go to the gun shop. Smarter men will have emptied the gun shop long before you decide to go "around the gun shop" with some veggies or rusty bicycle to offer.

Nevertheless, the bicycle would be effortlessly taken from you by people with guns. Good thing is, people with guns would probably not take your veggies, as they usually eat meat or fish, and for some reason don't eat much vegetables.

In any case, gold would still be appreciated by most people, for its jewellery beauty and history, and that's what would make gold more powerful, so to speak, than bitcoins, if the downfall of society keeps happening. I'd say that bitcoins are great until five minutes before society crumbles and all goes "off the grid". Then one had better have faith, gold and gun and good friends or family around.
 

JayR

Woodpecker
Atheist
Can anyone think of another example of a supposedly "world-changing" technology that existed for well over a decade, which spread all over the world and became known to every curious and intelligent person, but which accomplished essentially nothing in that time except to separate people from their money? Because that's the story of Bitcoin thus far. When contrasted with every other great invention of mankind, it falls laughably and pathetically short.

Bitcoin IS a world-changing technology already. I donated 0.019 BTC to the Canadian Truckers and damn did it make me feel good sticking it to Trudeau.

Anecdote -- I live in the deep south, USA, and there is a lot of post-hurricane construction going on around me, almost all of it being done by Mexican immigrants. I found a crumpled Western Union receipt on my lawn the other day. One of the workers on a project next to my house sent US$150 back to Mexico. The WU fee was $15. That's too much when Bitcoin could do the same thing for pennies.


Dear U.S. Congressional Leadership, Committee Chairs and Ranking Members,

‍We are 21 human rights advocates from 20 countries across the globe who have dedicated ourselves to the struggle for freedom and democracy. In this struggle, we have relied on Bitcoin and dollar instruments known as stablecoins, as have tens of millions of others living under authoritarian regimes or unstable economies.

Bitcoin provides financial inclusion and empowerment because it is open and permissionless. Anyone on earth can use it. Bitcoin and stablecoins offer unparalled access to the global economy for people in countries like Nigeria, Turkey, or Argentina, where local currencies are collapsing, broken, or cut off from the outside world.

We write to urge an open-minded, empathetic approach toward monetary tools that are increasingly playing a role in the lives of people facing political repression and economic hardship. We are not industry financiers or professional lobbyists but humanitarians and democracy advocates who have used Bitcoin to assist people at risk when other options have failed.

You recently received a different letter from a group of critics claiming that cryptocurrency is “unproven” and a solution “in search of problems.” Our problems are real and the proof is in our stories and work.

We can personally attest — as do the enclosed reports from top global media outlets — that when currency catastrophes struck Cuba, Afghanistan, and Venezuela, Bitcoin gave our compatriots refuge. When crackdowns on civil liberties befell Nigeria, Belarus, and Hong Kong, Bitcoin helped keep the fight against authoritarianism afloat. After Russia invaded Ukraine, these technologies (which the critics allege are “not built for purpose”) played a role in sustaining democratic resistance — especially in the first few days, when legacy financial systems faltered.

Unlike most citizens on the planet, nearly all of the authors of the anti-crypto letter are from countries with stable currencies, free speech, and strong property rights. Dollar and euro users have most likely not experienced extreme currency devaluation or the cold grip of dictatorship. To most in the West, the horrors of monetary colonialism, misogynist financial policy, frozen bank accounts, exploitative remittance companies, and an inability to connect to the global economy might be distant ideas. To most of us and our communities — and to the majority of people worldwide — they are daily realities. If there were “far better solutions already in use” to overcome these challenges, we would know.

We do not claim that Bitcoin and stablecoins solve every problem, or that they are entirely positive or without risk. But in contrast to the claims made by the authors of the anti-crypto letter, ample evidence suggests that Bitcoin has and will continue to empower Americans and global citizens in the coming decade, and that—alongside stablecoins—this open and decentralized monetary network will help defy tyranny and strengthen democratic movements abroad.

Most of us dream that our fellow citizens could have access to the dollar or euro systems. But they do not. Bitcoin might not be our plan A, but amidst the failures of legacy financial systems, it is a valuable plan B as a bridge to the global economy and as a counter to the Chinese Communist Party’s model of surveillance and control. To claim that the practical value and future potential of cryptocurrencies “does not exist” denies the lived experience of millions of people like us and our colleagues who have depended on Bitcoin and stablecoins in times of crisis and autocracy.

We strongly recommend that the committees addressed herein research and explore the global value of these technologies, their empirically proven benefits for millions of people, and their potential. The crypto industry is undoubtedly rife with scams, but the solution is not to conflate genuinely useful fintech instruments with harmful crypto schemes. Instead, it is to teach people how to tell the difference. It is very easy to distinguish Bitcoin and the largest stablecoins — which constitute the clear majority of daily cryptocurrency volume and total global market capitalization — as valuable technologies making an impact worldwide. We hope that you and your colleagues do not craft or implement policy that hurts our ability to use these new technologies in our human rights and humanitarian work.

Just as some of us have acted to defend the open web in the past, today we stand to defend an open monetary system. Until now, many of us have been forced to hold broken currencies as our rulers prevented us from accessing dollars. We have paid the price of extortionate international money transfers. We have watched as our dictatorial leaders from Beijing to Moscow tried to ban Bitcoin. We hope you choose a different policy path, one that allows us to save, connect, and gain freedom.

We thank the Congress for its leadership and urge you to weigh our experience and expertise when setting legislative priorities. We are happy to share our stories with you anytime.
 

Gimlet

Pelican
No, I said it was the only money that reached them. Post #11,072 in this thread, read my original words. It was a real-world demonstration of the unstoppable nature of it…the government tried and failed to stop it, including kicking in doors. The truckers got sums of money from around the world to replace what they had to forgo in order to protest. The savings of most people gets quickly depleted from not working for a month.
How did it go from bitcoin donations, to the truckers, then to the gas station or grocery store? How did they accept it, and how did they use it for their benefit? I know the phones were frequently jammed. So how did it work? How did they use the donations?
 

Gimlet

Pelican
If the "grid goes down", it'll be too late to go to the gun shop. Smarter men will have emptied the gun shop long before you decide to go "around the gun shop" with some veggies or rusty bicycle to offer.

Nevertheless, the bicycle would be effortlessly taken from you by people with guns. Good thing is, people with guns would probably not take your veggies, as they usually eat meat or fish, and for some reason don't eat much vegetables.

In any case, gold would still be appreciated by most people, for its jewellery beauty and history, and that's what would make gold more powerful, so to speak, than bitcoins, if the downfall of society keeps happening. I'd say that bitcoins are great until five minutes before society crumbles and all goes "off the grid". Then one had better have faith, gold and gun and good friends or family around.

The grid just went down in TX a week ago. 911 had to revert to paper slips. They did not go Mad Max. Some people did not have gas. They did not kill their neighbors.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
How did it go from bitcoin donations, to the truckers, then to the gas station or grocery store? How did they accept it, and how did they use it for their benefit? I know the phones were frequently jammed. So how did it work? How did they use the donations?
It went to replace savings, not as “gas money”. When they drive home to their family that hasn’t had a paycheck for a month.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
The grid just went down in TX a week ago. 911 had to revert to paper slips. They did not go Mad Max. Some people did not have gas. They did not kill their neighbors.
When you say “grid down” I thought you meant a CME event that takes down an entire country, not a regional outage like a hurricane. In that case, I never had to barter…I just used cash to buy stuff from the only store that was open, the hardware store. 2 weeks without power in a regional area is no big deal, most people have family out of state or at least a place to go, if they can’t stay.
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant

Gimlet

Pelican
It went to replace savings, not as “gas money”. When they drive home to their family that hasn’t had a paycheck for a month.
I saw numerous videos in which they ran out of gas after idling for long periods of time. That was a huge part of the story. How did they buy fuel to get home, when their means of making purchases was cut off?
 

chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
I saw numerous videos in which they ran out of gas after idling for long periods of time. That was a huge part of the story. How did they buy fuel to get home, when their means of making purchases was cut off?
Of that I’m not sure. I suppose they were allowed to buy diesel to get the trucks out of Ottawa, since that was the governments objective, to get them out. Preventing them from buying fuel, and thus blocking the streets indefinitely, would have played right into the protesters objective.

Bank account freezes were done with the various donors that used Go Fund Me, and Give Send Go, because the government requests a list of accounts from the banks. Easy to turn off thousands with a few keystrokes. As far as trucker banking, I know less about that, but it seems much more difficult, unless you have police going truck to truck, gathering IDs, then figuring out where their accounts are…maybe a few of the leaders were targeted, but that seems more difficult for the average participant, multiplied by hundreds. Even with a government ID, you have a name and address, but not a bank name or account number. It’s a lot more work to determine which bank, and which person…with such limited info, even the banks would have balked at the “request”.

Any rate, it was a good lesson for a few people. Your money in the bank is no longer yours…you don’t have title to it. Thousands found out that they are unsecured creditors, that may get their money, or not.
 
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chance vought

Kingfisher
Protestant
Bitcoin is like a nuke until an actual nuke goes off and shuts off all your electricity. After which, you have no way to exchange bitcoin for anything. Meanwhile, you could take a cow and turn it into food, clothing, use it for dairy, farming, etc. Even gold, at least you could turn it into jewelry, and it has some use in hardware. Bitcoin? What good is it if you don’t live in some big city with electricity most likely subsidized by the government.

I agree, in that scenario, BTC is nearly worthless. BTC is not for the worst case tail risk, civilization collapse...

It exists for higher probability futures: more government wealth extraction, censorship, and coercion. BTC would survive an apocalypse, but it's going to be just as useful as a suitcase full of money during the zombie apocalypse.

Preparing for the tail risk has a very low return on investment. Instead, be able to last through a hurricane, or flood, or increasingly aggressive government. But preparing for the Collapse of civilization has a high opportunity cost, that is better spent on preparing for more likely problems.

Not having to ask permission to use your own money, severely curtails government power. Yes they can still hurt you, but only in ways that will draw much more attention and anger from the remainder of the population.
 
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Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
You are engaged in wishful thinking that has blinded you to the harsh realities of the world you live in, and to the significant problems with Bitcoin as a potential solution to the problems you've identified.
No I'm not. Do I need to actually give more reasons, which @chance vought has already eloquently done, to show you yet again?
Claiming that Bitcoin is a security makes as much sense as claiming that Gold is a security. What is the “inherent value” of gold. Of dollars?
Yes, and of course, like many other topics Scorpion won't counter (because he can't), we haven't seen a reply. BTC being a security (and I like Mike Green otherwise) is just dumb. It's clearly not, is not classified as one, and I haven't even gone on to the point that is super ironic: Green is a materialist, establishment/legacy guy that has something to lose by admitting that the current schema is fraudulent and abusive, which he does in passing, but (haha) very quickly. He has no belief in God and only sees morality as people not taking his stuff. Lucky for him, he was born at the right time to accumulate enough to withstand the onslaught or have more powerful friends protect him.
If people have the option of using money that gets more valuable over time, or a money that buys less over time, which monetary network will they join?
Another checkmate. Silence is an answer.
The fundamental problem with Bitcoin as a currency is that it is deflationary by nature, which eliminates its usefulness as a medium of exchange (and which also greatly limits the incentive of people to invest their Bitcoin in productive endeavors to generate a return).
You're living in the old world. One would think you are 70 years old with this mindset. I know you are smarter than that, so it baffles me.
There is no debating a zealot.
No, you call a person a "zealot" when you can't actually debate him.
It's difficult to talk about money because at the end of the day, money is essentially nothing more than a collective social fiction.
This is where you fail.
Bitcoin is based on fiat.
No, you just don't know it yet. There will be no option for people soon, though I will admit they might choose slavery. If they can or have mind enough to decide, BTC will beat fiat/CBDC every time. You know it, and so do we.
 

Cynllo

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
How did it go from bitcoin donations, to the truckers, then to the gas station or grocery store?

Will read more of this thread later, but to reply to this. I pay three people in USDT, which is mostly built on ETH. One is Russian living in Russia, the other is Russian living in various countries, the other in Serbia.

For the first person, I have a rouble account. When I tried to send the money it disappeared for months with some missing when it came back. No explanation. Now there is a $200 fee on rouble transfers. He opened an account in Kazakhstan and my wire took five months to turn up. Using this option we are losing several percent in fees. Or I can send him USDT for virtually nothing, which he exchanges for +3%. The second has an account I can send to for zero fees, but then it costs to take it out. USDT is more versatile and permissionless. The last is subject to new massive taxes on international income to pay for their puppet UN government.

For all these the cheapest option in crypto, and the safest. I assumed the wire I sent to Kazakhstan was a write off. Never had a crypto transaction disappear or take months. This is early days and the crypto only economy is growing. It doesn't make any sense to me why any one here would side with the coming CBDC system and the dollar system, the lynchpin of promoting every form of sodomy in the world.

Truckers wouldn't have got the donations without BTC, conversion to local sodomy dollars deemed a necessity to use it only due to the debased regime in Canada. The trucker situation is the specific kind of reason such things are needed.
 
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