The Coronavirus Pandemic thread III

Emancipator

Hummingbird
Gold Member
CynicalContrarian said:
I'd rather a dog that can smell / differentiate a Chinese communist spy from regular Chinese... :rolleyes:
Easy all the dog has to do is start talking about Tienanmen Square 1989

动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 劉曉波动态网自由门
 
Emancipator said:
CynicalContrarian said:
I'd rather a dog that can smell / differentiate a Chinese communist spy from regular Chinese... :rolleyes:
Easy all the dog has to do is start talking about Tienanmen Square 1989

动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 劉曉波动态网自由门
I think half the posters on this board with 1-2 reps and sub-200 post counts just vanished into the ether.
 

budoslavic

Peacock
Gold Member

Edit.
South Carolina to reopen public beaches, retail stores next week amid pandemic
By Marty Johnson - 04/18/20 04:45 PM EDT

South Carolina Gov. Henry McMaster (R) on Monday will announce the reopening of public beaches and retail stores that had been closed due to the COVID-19 pandemic, The Post and Courier reported.

The impending restriction rollbacks follow McMaster's announcement that access to public boat ramps and landings was reinstated on Friday.

Trey Walker, the governor's chief of staff, told the paper that the beaches as well as furniture, jewelry and clothing stores will all be reopened for business on Tuesday.

Beaches and retail stores have been closed for just over two weeks in the Palmetto State as it tried to curb the spread of the virus.

Walker told The Post and Courier that infection rates dropped enough to make easing restrictions feasible.

The paper noted that social distancing will still be enforced on the state's beaches. The state has more than 4,000 confirmed cases of the virus and 116 deaths, according to data compiled by The New York Times.

On Friday, Texas became the first state to lay out a defined rollback of COVID-19 restrictions, with Gov. Greg Abbott ( R ) saying that businesses in the state would being to reopen next week through a series of executive orders.
 

Emancipator

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Tail Gunner said:
It is highly ironic, but not surprising, that a global technocracy tasked with preserving health actually did far more harm than good. People may also start to wonder why moronic socialists from third-world hell-holes are almost always installed as the head of such organizations.

This ordeal will likely strike a body blow to many organizations prized by the world elite, including the WHO and the EU.
Typical organizational bloat

The Associated Press reported in 2017 that WHO “routinely has spent about $200 million a year on travel expenses, more than what it doles out to fight some of the biggest problems in public health, including AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria combined.”


WHO Spends More on Travel Than on AIDS, Malaria

Trump squashed the left's crying about "THE WHO DOES GOOD IN THE WORLD" when he pointed out in the presser that it has been the US most prominent in the fight against AIDS in Africa and that the US can do this on it's own without European UN bureaucratic pork
 

Tail Gunner

Hummingbird
Gold Member
budoslavic said:
Only the ignorant call Sweden a success.

[attachment=43593]

It is too soon for a full reckoning of the effects of the “Swedish model.” The COVID-19 death rate is nine times higher than in Finland, nearly five times higher than in Norway, and more than twice as high as in Denmark.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...edish-coronavirus-no-lockdown-model-proves-le


In light of its failure, Sweden has had to back-peddle and institute many of the same restrictions that it previously eschewed:

It should be noted, though, that the state epidemiologist’s policy choice has been strongly criticized by independent experts in Sweden. Some 22 of the country’s most prominent professors in infectious diseases and epidemiology published a commentary in Dagens Nyheter calling on Tegnell to resign and appealing to the government to take a different course of action.

By mid-March, and with wide community spread, Löfven was forced to take a more active role. Since then, the government has been playing catch-up. From March 29, it prohibited public gatherings of more than 50 people, down from 500, and added sanctions for noncompliance. Then, from April 1, it barred visits to nursing homes, after it had become clear that the virus had hit around half of Stockholm’s facilities for the elderly.
 

Attachments

Emancipator

Hummingbird
Gold Member
It is important to note traffic in Sweden is way down and Swedes are practicing social distancing since it's recommended by the government (high trust the population listens)

The only reason why they haven't instituted full lockdowns and "shelter in place" is because constitutionally they aren't able to
More than half of all Swedish homes are made up of one resident

Sweden's economy is still going to see double digit GDP contraction and already thousands have been laid off.

And yet higher deaths per capita compared to peers...

'It's a myth that life is going on as normal,' says Swedish government
https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/17...is-going-on-as-normal-says-swedish-government

Sweden's government has defended its strategy in fighting the COVID-19 outbreak in the country.

The country has recorded a drastic increase in the number of coronavirus-related deaths during the last month, which sparked concerns about its social distancing measures.

Unlike some of its Scandinavian neighbours - like Denmark and Norway - Sweden kept primary and secondary schools open, as well as most businesses, including cafes and restaurants.

"The difference between the approach in Sweden and in other countries is not very big. It's mainly the tone that we deal with," said Johan Carlson, director of Sweden's public health agency.

"Rather than saying 'you need to stay at home, you're not allowed to do that and that' we are trying to explain to the population why this should be done, the reason for it and also the rationale for doing certain things," he added.

So far, Sweden has banned gatherings larger than 50 people, closed high-schools and universities, and urged those over 70, or otherwise at greater risk from the virus, to self-isolate.

Sweden's foreign minister, Ann Linde, who spoke alongside Carlson at Friday's briefing in Stockholm, said the idea that life goes on as normal in Sweden is "a myth".

"Many people stay at home and have stopped travelling. Many businesses are collapsing. Unemployment is expected to rise dramatically," Linde said.

She argued that "Sweden shares the same goals regarding the COVID-19 outbreak as all other countries: to save lives and protect public health. We work with the same challenges as other countries - the scale and speed of the virus, the pressure on the national health system - and we use the same tools as most countries do."

Yesterday (April 16), the government received special - though temporary - powers by parliament in order to pass bills without requiring MPs approval in case of urgent public health matters.

Parliament is however entitled to revoke any law passed with such system if it wishes to do so.

In addition, Sweden's prime minister Stefan Löfven announced the travel ban into the country would be extended until May 15. It does not apply to citizens from Switzerland or countries of the European Economic Area (EEA).

As of Friday (April 17) Sweden has reported more than 12,500 cases of COVID-19 - half of them in the past 14 days only - with more than 1,300 deaths, according to the European Centre for Disease and Prevention Control (ECDC).
 

Tail Gunner

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Easy E said:
Since when was the standard that there be no deaths from a virus or else the country needs to be shut down?

CDC: 80,000 people died of flu last winter in U.S., highest death toll in 40 years:

https://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/

^The hysteria over this virus has gotten out of control and needs to be put in context.

A bad flu year can take 80K lives during the winter in the US.
Who is being hysterical? Now that we know far more about the virus and how to treat it, I am in favor of opening the economy ASAP. Almost everyone in this thread feels the same way. I simply oppose all these Monday morning quarterbacks, who invaded this thread from the skeptic thread, arguing that we should not have taken any steps to minimize deaths from a previously unknown and potentially devastating disease.
 

Easy E

Kingfisher
I think the news media in particular is not putting the deaths in context, leading to some states to ban fishing alone and other low risk activities based on the "killer virus" myth that has been created.

As more testing has come out, it is clear that this virus has a lower death rate than initially thought.

It is particularly bad for the elderly and immunocompromised, but then so is the flu during a bad year.
 
Question- how bad would would coronavirus be for someone at the age of 67 with particular autoimmune disorder such as arthritis or psoriasis and high blood pressure but otherwise healthy and non smokers? I haven't seen information breaking those stats down.
 
Eh, it's hard to be sure, and at any rate it's not like specific data matters all that much. (If you knew it was 25% instead of 15%, what would you do differently?)

It's risky enough that they should stay away from crowds, make sure they're getting plenty of vitamin C and vitamin D, as well as sunlight, some moderate exercise and good sleep.
Beyond that there's not much to be done.
 
Who is being hysterical? Now that we know far more about the virus and how to treat it, I am in favor of opening the economy ASAP. Almost everyone in this thread feels the same way. I simply oppose all these Monday morning quarterbacks, who invaded this thread from the skeptic thread, arguing that we should not have taken any steps to minimize deaths from a previously unknown and potentially devastating disease.
About the only significant thing we learned in the past month about treating COVID-19 is "Don't jam a tube down granny's throat and force high-pressure oxygen into her lungs, it's bad for her."
We ain't talking about a medical breakthrough on the order of penicillin here.
 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
CynicalContrarian said:
I'd rather a dog that can smell / differentiate a Chinese communist spy from regular Chinese... :rolleyes:
That's easy, you just train the dog to smell bullshit.

Course, greater quantities make differentiation harder.

 
In a situation like this there will be cities, countries that over react or under react. There is almost no way to gage the intervention perfectly.

Will I take it back. Taiwan has a very well laid out plan for various stages of shut down based on the number and the rate of rise of COVID cases. Based on their assessment all school and business remained open except large spectator sports. But Taiwan is an exception because they have meticulously planned for it.

You can argue Italy under prepared, California and Florida should not have shut down. Yup, hind sight is 20/20.

For those who still think this is equal to a bad flu season. We have no idea how many will die if social distancing is not enforced. But right now is 40,000 dead in one month. Look at Italy where 100 doctors have died in 1 month fighting this disease. I can not think of any healthcare crisis in the last 50 years where so many doctors and nurses perished so quickly. Even in California where the disease is well controlled, 70% of the ICU beds are occupied by COVID patients. I have never seen or heard of any disease that takes over 70%-90% of the ICU capacity of a large metropolitan.

Yes we all want our beaches, sporting events, restaurants, economy. While everyone was crapping in their pants 3 weeks ago, I laid out a plan for keeping the economy and entertainment open for the young because they are not at risk. No one seem to pay any notice to it. Now that we see that the virus is under control, everyone criticizing the government for shutting down too hard.
 

Handsome Creepy Eel

Owl
Gold Member
SamuelBRoberts said:
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
The whole "Wuhan protocol" theory is just a fantasy that Simeon cooked up after his ridiculous theories that no extra deaths were happening were thoroughly demolished by the data.
"Wuhan Protocol" may be Simeon's phrasing, but the general idea is accurate: Early treatment protocols for Corona, which came out of China, involved extremely aggressive use of ventilators to target the disease, on the theory that it was so scary a ventilator was the only way to survive. But as we're learning the disease is less lethal than thought, doctors are moving away from them, and in the process, saving lives.

Here's a good story from the AP talking about this.
"We should try some less invasive methods before resorting to ventilators" is not exactly a Nobel prize-winning therapy - preferring less over more invasive whenever possible is already a keystone of medical science. And there's no indication that it's not exactly how it was done before. Doctors don't exactly yearn to saddle themselves with extra workload by rushing to apply the most complicated and time-consuming therapy.

Again, you don't put a patient on a ventilator unless they're already experiencing acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), from which they are very likely to die even if the condition that caused it was suddenly cured, let alone if the condition continues. The idea that healthy patients with mild cough ended up on ventilators is absolutely ridiculous.

Secondly, the high mortality of patients who end up on ventilators is linked to how late they received it after ARDS began.

But back to the topic - how do I know that putting patients on ventilators was an absolute last resort and not a first-line treatment as you claim? Because Italy, where you just claimed that mass deaths occurred because of ventilators, actually had a severe shortage of ventilators, and as a consequence of triage and rationing, ventilators were not available to any patient older than 60.

Therefore, if "being put on a ventilator" was the cause of death, you'd expect the young patients in Italy to die, and the elderly to survive. In fact, the exact opposite is what happened. The average age of deaths in Italy is 85 years. You yourself like to quote that fact as if your life depended on it.

So no, there's no "Wuhan protocol" that kills scores of healthy patients, and "ventilators are killing people instead of coronavirus" is a fantasy.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
Anyhoo, I was thinking today that this "they died of old age, not CV" thing is an absolute gold mine for defense lawyers.

Since apparently someone contracting CV and dying years earlier than they otherwise would doesn't count as a CV death this could be applied to all manner of deaths.

"Your honor, although my client was driving drunk and mounted the sidewalk we posit that a younger and therefore more spry individual would have been able to move aside more quickly or at least would have been more likely to survive their injuries when struck by the vehicle. We therefore assert that Mrs Winterknell in fact died of old age, in which being struck by the car was a co-morbidity factor rather than vice versa. It is therefore the inescapable conclusion that she died more or less of natural causes and my client is not guilty of vehicular manslaughter".
 
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