The Decentralized Finance (DeFi) Thread

scorpion

Hummingbird
Gold Member
DeFi has the ability to disrupt Wall Street. Much of Wall street are insiders who are heavily subsidized (primary dealers collecting spreads on treasuries, fees on tax advantaged or government owned savings vehicles, regulatory exclusion of competitors etc) and kick back profits to the US government for political power. This is not true of defi. So where does the value in DeFi come from? Banks function as middle men CAN be replaced by smart contracts and the value they derive from being middle men CAN flow into DeFi. Will it, I don't know but DeFI is a ~10 billion dollar industry, global banking is a 10 trillion dollar industry so I've allocated small amounts of savings in case capital flows from one to another. Its an asymmetrical bet than either goes to 0 or goes 1000x over the next decade.
You've just explained exactly why crypto will never take the place of traditional banking and finance: because those centers of power are far too profitable for governments and elites to give up. The macro trend of American capitalism over the last several decades has been that of consolidation and centralization. The more traction crypto gains, the more it will become centralized, co-opted and eventually taken over and merged into the traditional banking and finance system. The same people currently running the show will be running crypto as well. The idea that global finance will be decentralized and peasants across the world will be collectively taking the place of Goldman Sachs, the Federal Reserve, et al is a total pipe dream.

powertower said:
As for crypto being taken over by elites, our current elites are taking positions. BUT they cannot force out the people who already own it. They can and are manipulating the price, shaking out people with leverage. They can push FUD driving down the price to places they are more comfortable buying. They can create new protocols and buy up cheap older protocols. But I don't believe they can kill it. There's a lot of people who have made a lot of $$$ on crypto who will throw their weight around the moment regulation becomes too onerous.

If you spent any sort of $$$ buying prior to 2011 (and held) you're a deca millionaire. 2014 your a millionaire. Prior to 2017 you've made hundreds of thousand of dollars. Prior to 2020 you have tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. This has created a new class of people who have money to throw and won't be easily displaced.
They don't have to force you out of your position. They just have to make your position untenable. You have to understand there is no more rule of law in the West. The law is whatever those in power say it is. We currently have millions of landlords who are being robbed of their property by a flatly illegal and unconstitutional eviction moratorium. If the government can illegally make your real estate worthless with the stroke of a pen, what do you think they can do to your collection of bits and bytes?

And yes, people who got in ten years ago have made fantastic returns...meaning that crypto has already mooned. There will be no more 100x or 1000x returns from here. People are taking massive risk for relatively paltry returns
 

scorpion

Hummingbird
Gold Member
It seems @scorpion is a Bitcoin maximalist, he just doesn't know it yet.
Bitcoin at least has a reasonably compelling usage case as a form of digital gold/inflation hedge, although it pretty much fails completely as a currency. But the danger with Bitcoin is that someone comes along and makes a better version. There are also substantial regulatory risks from governments attacking the proof of work standard through the angle of climate change, 51% attacks and the eventual emergence of quantum computing that could almost instantly destroy Bitcoin.

What do you think will be worth more 50 years from now: $100k of Bitcoin or $100k of gold? Is it possible the Bitcoin would be worth more? Absolutely. Is it possible the Bitcoin could be worth literally $0? Easily. But I can guarantee you the gold will still be worth roughly the equivalent of $100k today, if not more.

None of these cryptos are without risk. And in general the risk is substantial, and much greater and more multifaceted than crypto enthusiasts want to admit.
 

Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
That being said, what possible use can there be for this type of lending except to add fuel to speculative crypto trading?

You are right. I have made my criticism of this in posts relating to stocks and cryptos. But the same is true of the other gamblers. Cryptos are still claims on wealth, as are fiat and stocks. People gamble them. There is essentially zero benefit to a company if their stock gets bid up. The stock market is just a redistribution system for people who produce nothing. The difference is that JP & Co. make all the profits. We should probably ban speculation, but that is not on the horizon. While it is here I will continue to use it to redistribute money from people who would spend it on some form of material pursuit to the raising a family fund.

But it does a lot of other things too. It's fairly easy to raise capital as a crypto project. While if you want to IPO (which is real investment) you have to climb through all manner of regulatory hoops and no doubt increasingly onboard left-wing policies into your company. No one can stop you IDO-ing (initial decentralised offering), while almost no one can IPO.

There are a lot of interesting projects, such as BLZ (a decentralised database), MYST (a decentralised VPN), PRE (a decentralised search engine). These projects are in their early stages, trying to find out how things can scale and work. Ultimately there is little that can be done to stop these projects. The end game of this space, which is now in its early stages is - decentralised data storage, decentralised processing power, decentralised finance, decentralised ads, decentralised bandwidth. As an example of a video platform (like Youtube), the files would be stored everywhere and everywhere, uploads would be encoded by 10,000s of competing nodes, payments would be handled with virtually no fee as opposed to the 1-5% of legacyFi... The only really solution to stopping that is turning off the internet or going full tyranny.

IMO, crypto is at about the 1989 stage of internet development. 2008-2016 was equatable to when the internet was behind closed doors in a few institutions. Quite a lot of people hold crypto. But there are not many people using it now. The number of people who use, rather than just hold crypto, is probably equatable to 1989, when there were about 3,000,000 internet users.

As the space matures these high yields will have to come to reality, and ultimately crypto will need be backed by real economic activity, which it is doing, slowly.

Crypto faces a sort of catch-22 situation: the more it evolves to become practical, secure and useful for facilitating actual economic activity, the more governments and central banks will seek to control it.

This, I think, is the only real issue with the space. The evidence that the central banks/BIS et.al. want to put us into a digital slavery system can easily be found. Crypto is the only real alternative to this. I fully expect further movements to ban, or more likely hyper-regulate crypto. This could deliver huge $ valuation blows, but at the same time the evidence is clear - the more financial tyranny is unleashed, the greater the crypto adoption. Crypto is most used in countries like China, Russia, Ukraine, Cuba and Venezuela. A similar effect it seen in El Salvador, where the new president is doing the opposite, but trying to provide a real, permissionless alternative to a corrupt and sclerotic system.

Financial tyranny will increase use, but decrease $ valuation.

The irony is that if crypto does succeed to the degree you predict then it will become just another tool for elite control of the financial system.

I don't see it quite like this. If they want to use this infrastructure, there isn't anything they can do about people who opt for self custody. It will also reveal to more people the extent to which the owners want people in financial straight jackets and that they will not abide financial freedom.

It is possible some major projects could be co-opted and grafted into the system, but in cases like this, it will be a hard fork and the real project will continue.

You think that the same people who can convince over half the population to take experimental injections and wear masks all day can't also enforce simple currency controls?

Some people handed over their gold. Much harder to get private keys or even know who owns an address -



Ultimately we are being put into a prison economy with expiring money, geographically limited money, negative interest rates, ADL/SPLC black lists and so on. You are more of a slave, in just that system, than in that system with crypto. If crypto is essentially illegal in that system, it will be greatly hampered, but it give you the option for commerce outside of the system.

And yes, people who got in ten years ago have made fantastic returns...meaning that crypto has already mooned. There will be no more 100x or 1000x returns from here. People are taking massive risk for relatively paltry returns

Gains from May 2020 price to ATH (unless otherwise stated)

BNB - $16 (8) - $675 = 42X
UNI - $0.48 (SEP) - $42 = 88X
MATIC - $0.02 - $2.57 = 129X
SOL - $0.60 - $56 = 93X
AAVE - $0.06 - $353 (I believe the supply was changed so X not applicable)
CAKE - $0.40 (SEP) - $44 = 110X
CEL - $0.17 - $7.72 = 45X
THOR - $0.18 - $20 = 111X

Compared to BTC in the same period - 7X; ETH - 20X; LTC - 9X.

Extend that out to March 2020 and ETH has an extra 10X.

Minus a ban/regulation I think these gains will still be around for some time.

What do you think will be worth more 50 years from now: $100k of Bitcoin or $100k of gold?

Neither. If gold is at $100K then there has either been hyperinflation, or currency has been re-pegged to gold; or both. In the case currency is pegged to gold, then gold is a ponzi. It costs $1,100 to mine an ounce of gold.

I ultimately can't see a long-term use for BTC. It's main appeal is acting as an inflation hedge, which boat has considerably sailed. Other than safety many other coins beat BTC in its features.

Ultimately the real gold standard would be the token of the primary smart contracts platform, which could deflate at the rate of economic growth, thus providing a real safe haven.
 
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Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
Any recommendation for a new/low cap coin on the SOL ecosystem to buy? Already got some TULIP, RAY & STEP

I don't really like the look of any of them. I've learnt from the ETH, BSC wave that a lot of the 2nd, 3rd tier projects can have rallies and them slumps. You'd be lucky to get a very solid mover.

RAY was down at $2.50 a few days ago. It was or is around $7.50 now. That was the ticket for the ecosystem.

SRM seems a bit overvalued compared to it's TVL.

TULIP was a very nice buy in the slump. It's market cap went down to about $1M, but is now $17M. Glad I bought a big chunk of that at a good price, but I wish I noticed it's cap had fallen to $1M. Yield aggregators are not very good performers, but getting in on the primary one on a good chain at such a price could do a 100X. I put my TULIP rewards into leverage farming at 2X - https://solfarm.io/leverage

Saber grew very quickly, but it doesn't look much compared to Raydium, so I didn't buy it.

The weaknesses of Solana are currently:

- lack of exchanges dealing in native SOL, SPL tokens
- lack of pairs and depth
- limited hardware wallet support

The TVL of Raydium has only gone up 30%, while RAY went up 75% (last 7 days). So there hasn't been a big injection of funds yet.
 

M'bare

Woodpecker
Gold Member
You are right. I have made my criticism of this in posts relating to stocks and cryptos. But the same is true of the other gamblers. Cryptos are still claims on wealth, as are fiat and stocks. People gamble them. There is essentially zero benefit to a company if their stock gets bid up. The stock market is just a redistribution system for people who produce nothing. The difference is that JP & Co. make all the profits. We should probably ban speculation, but that is not on the horizon. While it is here I will continue to use it to redistribute money from people who would spend it on some form of material pursuit to the raising a family fund.

But it does a lot of other things too. It's fairly easy to raise capital as a crypto project. While if you want to IPO (which is real investment) you have to climb through all manner of regulatory hoops and no doubt increasingly onboard left-wing policies into your company. No one can stop you IDO-ing (initial decentralised offering), while almost no one can IPO.

There are a lot of interesting projects, such as BLZ (a decentralised database), MYST (a decentralised VPN), PRE (a decentralised search engine). These projects are in their early stages, trying to find out how things can scale and work. Ultimately there is little that can be done to stop these projects. The end game of this space, which is now in its early stages is - decentralised data storage, decentralised processing power, decentralised finance, decentralised ads, decentralised bandwidth. As an example of a video platform (like Youtube), the files would be stored everywhere and everywhere, uploads would be encoded by 10,000s of competing nodes, payments would be handled with virtually no fee as opposed to the 1-5% of legacyFi... The only really solution to stopping that is turning off the internet or going full tyranny.

IMO, crypto is at about the 1989 stage of internet development. 2008-2016 was equatable to when the internet was behind closed doors in a few institutions. Quite a lot of people hold crypto. But there are not many people using it now. The number of people who use, rather than just hold crypto, is probably equatable to 1989, when there were about 3,000,000 internet users.

As the space matures these high yields will have to come to reality, and ultimately crypto will need be backed by real economic activity, which it is doing, slowly.



This, I think, is the only real issue with the space. The evidence that the central banks/BIS et.al. want to put us into a digital slavery system can easily be found. Crypto is the only real alternative to this. I fully expect further movements to ban, or more likely hyper-regulate crypto. This could deliver huge $ valuation blows, but at the same time the evidence is clear - the more financial tyranny is unleashed, the greater the crypto adoption. Crypto is most used in countries like China, Russia, Ukraine, Cuba and Venezuela. A similar effect it seen in El Salvador, where the new president is doing the opposite, but trying to provide a real, permissionless alternative to a corrupt and sclerotic system.

Financial tyranny will increase use, but decrease $ valuation.



I don't see it quite like this. If they want to use this infrastructure, there isn't anything they can do about people who opt for self custody. It will also reveal to more people the extent to which the owners want people in financial straight jackets and that they will not abide financial freedom.

It is possible some major projects could be co-opted and grafted into the system, but in cases like this, it will be a hard fork and the real project will continue.



Some people handed over their gold. Much harder to get private keys or even know who owns an address -



Ultimately we are being put into a prison economy with expiring money, geographically limited money, negative interest rates, ADL/SPLC black lists and so on. You are more of a slave, in just that system, than in that system with crypto. If crypto is essentially illegal in that system, it will be greatly hampered, but it give you the option for commerce outside of the system.



Gains from May 2020 price to ATH (unless otherwise stated)

BNB - $16 (8) - $675 = 42X
UNI - $0.48 (SEP) - $42 = 88X
MATIC - $0.02 - $2.57 = 129X
SOL - $0.60 - $56 = 93X
AAVE - $0.06 - $353 (I believe the supply was changed so X not applicable)
CAKE - $0.40 (SEP) - $44 = 110X
CEL - $0.17 - $7.72 = 45X
THOR - $0.18 - $20 = 111X

Compared to BTC in the same period - 7X; ETH - 20X; LTC - 9X.

Extend that out to March 2020 and ETH has an extra 10X.

Minus a ban/regulation I think these gains will still be around for some time.



Neither. If gold is at $100K then there has either been hyperinflation, or currency has been re-pegged to gold; or both. In the case currency is pegged to gold, then gold is a ponzi. It costs $1,100 to mine an ounce of gold.

I ultimately can't see a long-term use for BTC. It's main appeal is acting as an inflation hedge, which boat has considerably sailed. Other than safety many other coins beat BTC in its features.

Ultimately the real gold standard would be the token of the primary smart contracts platform, which could deflate at the rate of economic growth, thus providing a real safe haven.

Coja, (or others)

I've asked in other threads, but haven't had much of a response...

I'm dabbling in Kinesis, which is gold and silver backed crypto. Any big concerns that you can see from it? I'm considering putting in 10K for the yield, and even spending it as if it were my debit bank account.

Any pitfalls I'm not seeing?

Thank you,
M'bare
 

Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
Coja, (or others)

I've asked in other threads, but haven't had much of a response...

I'm dabbling in Kinesis, which is gold and silver backed crypto. Any big concerns that you can see from it? I'm considering putting in 10K for the yield, and even spending it as if it were my debit bank account.

Any pitfalls I'm not seeing?

Thank you,
M'bare


I think it was discussed here:


I don't specifically know it.

If you have not seen it you can get 8.2% on PAX Gold on Youhodler. Risk - integrity of the Paxos + Youholder. You can take the money out at any time.

Crypto.com and maybe Nexo or Celsius have yield on it too, but lower.
 
I don't really like the look of any of them. I've learnt from the ETH, BSC wave that a lot of the 2nd, 3rd tier projects can have rallies and them slumps. You'd be lucky to get a very solid mover.

RAY was down at $2.50 a few days ago. It was or is around $7.50 now. That was the ticket for the ecosystem.

SRM seems a bit overvalued compared to it's TVL.

TULIP was a very nice buy in the slump. It's market cap went down to about $1M, but is now $17M. Glad I bought a big chunk of that at a good price, but I wish I noticed it's cap had fallen to $1M. Yield aggregators are not very good performers, but getting in on the primary one on a good chain at such a price could do a 100X. I put my TULIP rewards into leverage farming at 2X - https://solfarm.io/leverage

Saber grew very quickly, but it doesn't look much compared to Raydium, so I didn't buy it.

The weaknesses of Solana are currently:

- lack of exchanges dealing in native SOL, SPL tokens
- lack of pairs and depth
- limited hardware wallet support

The TVL of Raydium has only gone up 30%, while RAY went up 75% (last 7 days). So there hasn't been a big injection of funds yet.
Cool, thanks for the advice. Will maybe give leverage farming on solfarm a try
 

fiasco360

Kingfisher
Orthodox
This one is getting the most attention -


But these launches are a pain to get in on, and you typically get a very small amount.

The Fanton ecosystem has taken a big turn up over the last few days, though I don't much like it.
I was on a discord call with like 400 other people and the Star Atlas team. They had some of the SOL dev team on the call as well.

I have a feeling people will want to get in on the ATLAS and POLIS tokens ASAP. Call it a gut feeling for now.

Downside - to get access to them - you need to stake 100 RAY minimum to get 1 lottery ticket.



Not to mention the game itself looks pretty cool and is using the unreal 5 engine.
 

Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
You can now manage Solana and SPL tokens with SafePal, which is supported by Raydium -

Screenshot-at-2021-08-30-16-44-50.png


Solana chomping through the top 10 now. Maybe chasing a 0.01฿ valuation. 5X from it's recent low.


IMG_20210830_145314.jpg
 
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Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
The Star Atlas and associated POLIS launcher is open for about the next 22 hours


But it's a lottery and the chances of getting a winning ticket is currently 1:22. A ticket costs $69.

I have two eligible accounts on Raydium with a max. of 12 tickets each I'd be lucky to get any at a gamble of $1,800 USDC.

A winning ticket gets 50,000 ATLAS, which has an IDO price of $69.

But reading the instructions it seems loosing tickets are refunded their USDC, which seems sensible since the cost of buying enough tickets to win (statistically) is over $1,500.

This IDO will give the project a market cap of $248,400, so it's definitely worth a shot or if you can pick up any close to the IDO price of $0.00138. I imagine this will soon 100-500X from that price.

This is only open to those who have 100 RAY staked in Raydium for seven or more days.
 
I’m noticing that mainly other chains such as sol ftm and avax have been rising (bsc has gained a reputation for being scammy)

Are there any other chains or layer 2 solutions with defi capabilities that are flying under the radar? Arbitrum is one but doesn’t have its own native token
 

Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
I’m noticing that mainly other chains such as sol ftm and avax have been rising (bsc has gained a reputation for being scammy)

Are there any other chains or layer 2 solutions with defi capabilities that are flying under the radar? Arbitrum is one but doesn’t have its own native token

Algorand has launched one. DeFi Lama has them listed - https://defillama.com/home

But I don't think any of them have the required arsenal of money and expertise that is behind SOL. I am still mostly on BSC, but my bet is SOL will take all the action and probably replace ETH by 2025.

SOL has doubled it's pre-crash ATH and RAY recently pierced it's previous ATH. Though the RAY TVL : market cap ratio is relatively high, which keeps me from wanting to buy more. Saber and SolFarm look quite good though. SolFarm's TULIP was recently down to $1M cap. Comparing it to other aggregator tokens it would not be unreasonable for it to hit a $300M cap.
 
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Seems like all the kids are into Solana NFTs at the moment. I think the liquidity issues at higher prices are gonna make it a quick up and quick down. What will that do to the price of Sol? After the last NFT bust, ethereum still shot up.
 
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