The Downsides of Being a Coder

greenwolf

Newbie
Why software developers might be obsolete by 2030

It's a clickbait title, but the main point is that the role of developer at a certain point will morph into a more powerful position, as coding becomes so crucial to everything.

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That is a pipe dream of the managerial class. It does not even work remotely. All these nice automation tools are mostly working in good weather conditions for simple processes. And it makes things worse if you need to debug something.
 

Justin C

Newbie
That is a pipe dream of the managerial class. It does not even work remotely. All these nice automation tools are mostly working in good weather conditions for simple processes. And it makes things worse if you need to debug something.
I could really see the majority of future programming jobs involving just stringing together other services and not really knowing how to do anything technical. Why hire an intelligent, competent engineer to re-invent the wheel with clean code which takes time and talent when you can just have 100 dedicated companies that provides those particular use cases very well. That's what "the cloud" is already doing. There are already so many companies that provide really small solutions like that.

Most web design agencies don't even design or develop a thing anymore. They just load up Wordpress, buy a template for $20, add some plugins and call it a day, charging the client thousands of dollars.
 

greenwolf

Newbie
I could really see the majority of future programming jobs involving just stringing together other services and not really knowing how to do anything technical. Why hire an intelligent, competent engineer to re-invent the wheel with clean code which takes time and talent when you can just have 100 dedicated companies that provides those particular use cases very well. That's what "the cloud" is already doing. There are already so many companies that provide really small solutions like that.

Most web design agencies don't even design or develop a thing anymore. They just load up Wordpress, buy a template for $20, add some plugins and call it a day, charging the client thousands of dollars.
That run of the mill works only for basic stuff. Like an online shop or something like that. The trend used to go towards platforms and ditch even this basic thing.
However with the recent censorships, having own webpages is more important again.
 

Posadskiy

Newbie
It's happening to an extent at the ops level. 15 years ago it was a ridiculous amount of work to do what we can do now with Docker or AWS or even DigitalOcean droplets. Also, marketing pipelines are an area where there can be amazing complexity with no proper "code". And a nightmare to debug unless it's been well-designed by…someone with software development experience and insights.

I see things like Firebase as the near-term future: don't do everything for you but solve lots and lots of friction in particular areas.
 

greenwolf

Newbie
It's happening to an extent at the ops level. 15 years ago it was a ridiculous amount of work to do what we can do now with Docker or AWS or even DigitalOcean droplets. Also, marketing pipelines are an area where there can be amazing complexity with no proper "code". And a nightmare to debug unless it's been well-designed by…someone with software development experience and insights.

I see things like Firebase as the near-term future: don't do everything for you but solve lots and lots of friction in particular areas.
it is a good way to start out for cheap.

but also with ops, it is fine and dandy until you get deplatformed. Also you are paying with a heavy lock in effect.
And the service can change or be shut down.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
That run of the mill works only for basic stuff. Like an online shop or something like that. The trend used to go towards platforms and ditch even this basic thing.
However with the recent censorships, having own webpages is more important again.

it is a good way to start out for cheap.

but also with ops, it is fine and dandy until you get deplatformed. Also you are paying with a heavy lock in effect.
And the service can change or be shut down.

This really isn't a political thread.
You don't have startups getting "deplatformed".
 
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FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
It's happening to an extent at the ops level. 15 years ago it was a ridiculous amount of work to do what we can do now with Docker or AWS or even DigitalOcean droplets. Also, marketing pipelines are an area where there can be amazing complexity with no proper "code". And a nightmare to debug unless it's been well-designed by…someone with software development experience and insights.

I see things like Firebase as the near-term future: don't do everything for you but solve lots and lots of friction in particular areas.
I don't really see Docker or AWS as simplifying development, as someone that works in both - that's also been around for a while.
The knowledge base to use these tools is quite deep. There are abstractions, like Vercel or Heroku, but large serious companies don't use them because they're too expensive and inflexible. Throwing a binary on a VM is the easiest thing in the world. But companies are embracing "microservices" as the paradigm, heavily pushed by the Cloud provider advocates. This makes things very complicated.

Marketing organizations won't pay for experienced software engineers.
They want tinkerers.
This was the biggest demotivator for me. I looked at the landscape and saw how pozzed all these companies were and it ruined all my interest. I see myself as decently intelligent and I am cut out for this kind of work, but if I'm not around masculine men with some virility I just feel unmotivated and dead inside.

I think it really depends on the language though. The harder the language the less retards there will be (duh). So if you really want to be a programmer you should be doing C++ and those guys you will be working with probably wont care about virtue signalling about BLM. They will most likely be old, have a family, and a life that doesn't revolve around consumerism.

If you're doing web development (easy), writing javascript (easy), then yeah your workplace will be flooded with these types.
All your other points are great too, but that one was the biggest deal breaker for me.
All companies are pozzed, pretty much -- tech probably moreso. But if you work remotely, you're not dealing with it as much.
I agree with you that language choice matters, but it's also much more challenging to get those roles in things like C++ and Java as a self-taught individual. The learning curve is steep, even for someone like me that's been around for a while and is a professional.

I wouldn't characterize web development as "easy". A lot of backend engineers complain about how complex things have gotten on the frontend in many years. For me personally, it's a sigh of relief to work on the backend because frontend engineers are super opinionated. But if you're just doing Wordpress, yeah. These days, a "web development" job means a lot of things because most software is web based, it's not like we're building webpages.

The nice thing about web development is it's more realistic to be a freelancer as a web developer than as a backend engineer, so you can avoid the corporate environment. Also, there are a lot more frontend roles than backend overall, just a lot more work to do.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
I could really see the majority of future programming jobs involving just stringing together other services and not really knowing how to do anything technical. Why hire an intelligent, competent engineer to re-invent the wheel with clean code which takes time and talent when you can just have 100 dedicated companies that provides those particular use cases very well. That's what "the cloud" is already doing. There are already so many companies that provide really small solutions like that.

Most web design agencies don't even design or develop a thing anymore. They just load up Wordpress, buy a template for $20, add some plugins and call it a day, charging the client thousands of dollars.
Web design for marketing and software engineering are two different worlds as far as I'm concerned.
 
This discussion on the automation of software engineering is super important, since that decides if this is a worthwhile career in 10-20 years to get you over the hump towards the later years.

Whatever can be abstracted the most easily will definitely be automated.

What I’m thinking: Web/native UI is def the ripest. Next I would say devops, which is obviously already being done. Data analytics and plug and play machine learning stuff is next.

What I think will ultimately be valuable for the longest is being the human interface between machine and business. Being able to translate what needs to get done into a real thing. So business analyst skills, engineering skills, and architecting skills combined.

The value of being the most clever technical person drops because the hard problems are abstracted and solved already. The value of being the most business saavy is important but still not there because you don’t understand any underlying mechanisms of getting stuff done. So the combination is the most important imo.
 

FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
This discussion on the automation of software engineering is super important, since that decides if this is a worthwhile career in 10-20 years to get you over the hump towards the later years.

Whatever can be abstracted the most easily will definitely be automated.

What I’m thinking: Web/native UI is def the ripest. Next I would say devops, which is obviously already being done. Data analytics and plug and play machine learning stuff is next.

What I think will ultimately be valuable for the longest is being the human interface between machine and business. Being able to translate what needs to get done into a real thing. So business analyst skills, engineering skills, and architecting skills combined.

The value of being the most clever technical person drops because the hard problems are abstracted and solved already. The value of being the most business saavy is important but still not there because you don’t understand any underlying mechanisms of getting stuff done. So the combination is the most important imo.
If you're worried about what happens to your career 10-20 years from now and that's hindering from you making a decision, you've already lost. All careers change and evolve. It's just the nature of the game.
 

tigerbass

Newbie
@FullThrottleTX Hey FullThrottle, can you please elaborate on your prior marketing career?

I'm in that exact boat, I'm about 5 years younger than you (34), been doing marketing the last 8 years. I sucked, but got much better and started hitting my stride the last 2-3 years focusing on demand generation, SEO, paid ads + retargeting and copywriting.

But marketing is a tough field now and more so in the future. I think it's far more toxic than the dev culture. You have more crazies, lots of feminists and it's ultra gynocentric. The guys are all male feminist allies and that ilk. I've witnessed multiple executives bang my female bosses before. I've noped away twice because I feared a #metoo moment was around the corner. It boggles my mind that grown ass men in their late 40s to 50s would risk it all...their company, their net-worth and their families...for dipping their quill in the company ink. Okay..

But yea, for now, I work really hard to screen my future bosses really well, generally male bosses are best. My current role is okay. I was laid off during Covid in the summer and finally got back recently to a new role. But I'm not thrilled about marketing. It's somewhat enjoyable and I'm skilled at it, but the salary cap is tough. Even with decent pay in the SF Bay Area, I'm a freaking pauper next to all the dev folks that overbid on everything here from food to real estate.

I was kinda retooling during my Covid break of a few months, just doing Python exercises on CodeCombat, learning more CSS and reviewing some obscure HTML tags that I forgot about.

I don't know. I'm kinda bored managing large inventories of keywords for paid ads...I'm bored backhanding CRMs and checking A/B experiments for emails. Events and conferences are getting old. Fortunately that's slowed down A LOT in the Covid environment, but doing webinars and virtual stuff all day is really not working anymore. People are saturated with all the screen time and selling to this crowd is getting harder by the day.

I just don't want to be laid off again. Reinventing the wheel every month in marketing is tough.

I want to make a career move, I'm just not sure if a hybrid approach is best or just abandon marketing and dive deeper into just pure coding.

I certainly echoed your sentiments on being more extroverted and desiring more social things to contrast your work life. Part of the reason I got into marketing was after college, I got into insides sales cause I choose a bizarre major that had no job prospects (religious studies). I double majored in finance too but have zero interest in going for investment banking or corporate finance. I just liked money—this has been great for my own portfolio but useless elsewhere. I also have been a DJ/MC since my college days and doing events was just ultra easy after doing hundreds of weddings, proms, corporate holiday parties, corporate conferences and random celebrations of all kinds. I've saved a few events at work because I had access to my own gear. Before that, I grew up in multiple family businesses around restaurants and swap meet/flea market stands—just super use to dealing with hundreds of randoms every day since I was a child. So yea, I'd like to think I'm pretty well-rounded between extraversion and being an autistic nerd. I can play in either pond, I probably default to 60% introvert and 40% extrovert.

Meanwhile, Covid also gave me a chance to expand my freelancing efforts out of sheer financial desperation and that was just hard. Difficult clients, different needs, some projects ultra easy, some I finished at a loss because it took way too much time. It's really sad at the moment because I have a handful of restaurants I'm working with and the new wave of shutdowns is murdering my clients financially. I built a bunch of interactive menus, synced up the POS system, integrated with their cloud accounting, etc.—and it all might be for nothing if my clients go bankrupt in the next 30 days.

I've always wanted the fabled digital nomad awesomeness of doing remote work and focusing on high value marketing and some front-end web stuff, but like, wow, holy shit, it's super hard to have consistent freelancing work like that. Or at least, my skill set makes it difficult to scale up in that direction.

But yea, any insights and tidbits would be very much appreciated. I hope I'm conveying my long winded question here on how to leverage my existing marketing skills but to move towards big data or coding. After I finish my Python work, I'm going to do just study SQL queries for a while. Yea, any thoughts on jumping into data science vs coding as a marketing guy?

Most obliged.
 
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FullThrottleTX

Woodpecker
@FullThrottleTX Hey FullThrottle, can you please elaborate on your prior marketing career?

I'm in that exact boat, I'm about 5 years younger than you (34), been doing marketing the last 8 years. I sucked, but got much better and started hitting my stride the last 2-3 years focusing on demand generation, SEO, paid ads + retargeting and copywriting.

But marketing is a tough field now and more so in the future. I think it's far more toxic than the dev culture. You have more crazies, lots of feminists and it's ultra gynocentric. The guys are all male feminist allies and that ilk. I've witnessed multiple executives bang my female bosses before. I've noped away twice because I feared a #metoo moment was around the corner. It boggles my mind that grown ass men in their late 40s to 50s would risk it all...their company, their net-worth and their families...for dipping their quill in the company ink. Okay..

But yea, for now, I work really hard to screen my future bosses really well, generally male bosses are best. My current role is okay. I was laid off during Covid in the summer and finally got back recently to a new role. But I'm not thrilled about marketing. It's somewhat enjoyable and I'm skilled at it, but the salary cap is tough. Even with decent pay in the SF Bay Area, I'm a freaking pauper next to all the dev folks that overbid on everything here from food to real estate.

I was kinda retooling during my Covid break of a few months, just doing Python exercises on CodeCombat, learning more CSS and reviewing some obscure HTML tags that I forgot about.

I don't know. I'm kinda bored managing large inventories of keywords for paid ads...I'm bored backhanding CRMs and checking A/B experiments for emails. Events and conferences are getting old. Fortunately that's slowed down A LOT in the Covid environment, but doing webinars and virtual stuff all day is really not working anymore. People are saturated with all the screen time and selling to this crowd is getting harder by the day.

I just don't want to be laid off again. Reinventing the wheel every month in marketing is tough.

I want to make a career move, I'm just not sure if a hybrid approach is best or just abandon marketing and dive deeper into just pure coding.

I certainly echoed your sentiments on being more extroverted and desiring more social things to contrast your work life. Part of the reason I got into marketing was after college, I got into insides sales cause I choose a bizarre major that had no job prospects (religious studies). I double majored in finance too but have zero interest in going for investment banking or corporate finance. I just liked money—this has been great for my own portfolio but useless elsewhere. I also have been a DJ/MC since my college days and doing events was just ultra easy after doing hundreds of weddings, proms, corporate holiday parties, corporate conferences and random celebrations of all kinds. I've saved a few events at work because I had access to my own gear. Before that, I grew up in multiple family businesses around restaurants and swap meet/flea market stands—just super use to dealing with hundreds of randoms every day since I was a child. So yea, I'd like to think I'm pretty well-rounded between extraversion and being an autistic nerd. I can play in either pond, I probably default to 60% introvert and 40% extrovert.

Meanwhile, Covid also gave me a chance to expand my freelancing efforts out of sheer financial desperation and that was just hard. Difficult clients, different needs, some projects ultra easy, some I finished at a loss because it took way too much time. It's really sad at the moment because I have a handful of restaurants I'm working with and the new wave of shutdowns is murdering my clients financially. I built a bunch of interactive menus, synced up the POS system, integrated with their cloud accounting, etc.—and it all might be for nothing if my clients go bankrupt in the next 30 days.

I've always wanted the fabled digital nomad awesomeness of doing remote work and focusing on high value marketing and some front-end web stuff, but like, wow, holy shit, it's super hard to have consistent freelancing work like that. Or at least, my skill set makes it difficult to scale up in that direction.

But yea, any insights and tidbits would be very much appreciated. I hope I'm conveying my long winded question here on how to leverage my existing marketing skills but to move towards big data or coding. After I finish my Python work, I'm going to do just study SQL queries for a while. Yea, any thoughts on jumping into data science vs coding as a marketing guy?

Most obliged.
Sure, I did full stack marketing and communications for about 8 years (digital, PR, events, copywriting, analytics). You've sort of have to leave behind the marketing work to do web dev. You can talk about design and project management in interviews and that will be helpful, and you'll certainly be a good interview compared to pure engineers due to your social skills. But my past work, other than the web development part of it (and I did a lot of web dev as a marketer) doesn't really have much to do with my current career path.

If you like coding, I have no doubt you can shift into it full-time and eventually freelancing.
If you don't like coding much and it's just your next best alternative, then it's going to be harder to make that shift.

Marketing is not a great career IMO unless you're using it for your own products.
Freelancing doesn't have to be a goal, it can be kind of a slog. Get a little bit of full-time experience. I'm 100% remote and full-time, I don't really freelance. I may make my way back to freelancing eventually (likely), but for now it's fairly easy to get full-time gigs with remote privileges.

I'd focus on frontend. More jobs, easier to get. JavaScript, React, Node (maybe Angular if you have time). That combination works.
Python, you're competing with all the Computer Science grads that are using it.

Get out of the SF Bay area. You will do better elsewhere. Atlanta, Denver, Dallas, Austin, Raleigh, and even Tampa are sort of in play (I'm headed to Tampa).

Data science is too competitive, just focus on frontend.
 
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Posadskiy

Newbie
I recommend reading things like Domain-Driven Design. Whether we’re orchestrating clusters of prefab components or writing low-level code there’s always a need for human insight and expressiveness in describing business rules and designing user experience. This will become more important the more technology there is, not less.
 
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