The God pill

Rob Banks

Thanks for the responses.

I just found out I flunked out of school (I had important assignments due last Tuesday and I thought they were due today). I will likely never be able to go back to school because my family told me they wouldn't pay my tuition if I flunked out. Now I have thousands of dollars in debt that I can't afford to pay.

I also got laid off from my job yesterday due to coronavirus.

Not to mention, the personal situation I talked about in my other thread has gotten worse (for those who read my other thread, my wife has recently moved back with her parents in South America due to the virus and she hasn't spoken to me in months).

I guess that's what I get for continuing to go against God (and against the advice of the forum).

I notice that I often say to myself "Fuck it. I'll give in to vice and sin, and as long as I go to work/school tomorrow and I pretend I'm doing OK, no one will notice and it won't affect me negatively." But that never happens.

In the last few months (and actually even before then too), there has been a direct correlation between my willingness to avoid sin/follow God and the outcomes in my personal life (work/school/situation with my wife).


@NoMoreTO- I accepted your chess challenge and your Private Message quota is full so I responded here instead. If you clean out your inbox a bit we can continue chatting in PMs.


Gold Member
Leonard D Neubache said:
Don't listen. Two steps forward for every one step back, or even 100 steps forward for every 99 back if that's what it takes.

I've had a melody running around in my head for the last 18 months of my process. A friend heard me playing it recently: "Is that one of yours?"


"That's an earworm. Finish it up."

I used to write songs constantly, then gave it up for God a couple of years ago, but now I'm understanding that it's OK to enjoy writing music if I put God at the front and centre: this is the process of mortification.

Two phrases, but only one part of the lyric was there. It's about the process of moving closer to God and everytime I get tempted towards discouragement, I start singing, optimistically:

"It's one step left of a million more steps."

Now I finally have the second line.

"One fall less of a million falls."

Rob: you have to understand that the process of coming to God isn't an instant sanctification - yes, some people are very blessed, and that happens, but, for the rest of us, it's a slow process of walking towards God, tripping, falling flat on our face, then getting up again and continuing.

Blessed Julian of Norwich was an english mystic known as an anchorage: Back in that time, when a church was built, Anchorages would agree to be bricked into a room at the side of the church and spent the rest of her life in prayer. In her famous work, 'Revelations of Divine Love', she explains that God expects us to fail.

He chooses us, and sets us off and running towards our goal. Then we fall, hard. This is then what separates us from God: We lie there in the mud, feeling ashamed and clumsy and very, very sorry for ourselves. He's standing there, willing to forgive us and help us back to our feet, but our pain is so all-consuming we forget that he's there.

He says he doesn't care about our sins or the specifics of them - the worst sin has been committed against him by Adam and Eve, The Fall, and that was repaired by Jesus at Calvary. The one sin we can commit is to feel a weird, twisted pride in the belief that our petty little sins are so important that they outweigh his Infinite Mercy. He doesn't care about the particulars, just that we don't feel so dirty and unlovable that we turn from him instead of asking forgiveness.

This, particularly, is a very common problem in those who misunderstand who God is and how he works, which is a problem with those denominations who present as Christian but controlled by Jewish power, 'Judeo-Christianity', teaching the Old Covenant Beliefs about God: that you were his slave; to fear him as stern judge; obedience will make you blessed and prosperous; he will 'smite' the unjust, the wicked and Israel's enemies. This was known as the Law of Fear, and creates a mindset called 'Freedom of Indifference' - you obey out of fear and punishment. This always keeps you at arms length to God. Imagine the reaction of a dog who is unsure if the master is going to give him a piece of food, or whack him with a stick.

This is why Jesus came along. The revealed the Truth that the Jews thought they were holy, but didn't know God at all, and he gently tries to explain to his followers that their leaders are Evil and worship the Devil. The old covenant was broken, the Jewish laws, so complicated no man could live by them, were abolished and simplified into the New Commandment: 'love one another as I have loved you', and, rather than the Jewish Belief in outward appearances, ritual, wealth and prosperity being a measure of holiness, he shows it's the inward conversion of heart that matters, and where exactly God's favour lies: the poor, the despondent, the persecuted, the sick, the unclean, the stranger, the sinner. This is the revolutionary nature of the Beatitudes, and why they arranged to have Jesus killed: their power was threatened.

The truth of all the writings of the Catholic Mystics is identical: the revelation is always that God is Infinite Love, and that his mercy always, always overrides Judgement.

This is why the New Covenant is known as the Law of Love. He's not a stern judge, but a loving father who suffers to see us suffer and whose compassion is infinite. We are not his slaves, but are valued as his adopted children. He allows suffering - never wills or creates it - for our sanctification, for comfort and excess corrupts us. Understanding this leads to a mindset known as 'Freedom For Excellence': you gradually learn to obey the Natural Law not out of fear, but because you are drawn to the good and the true. This is not an instant process, but requires lifetime of work where you don't let external appearances create judgements of your own holiness or others. Even a formation work for Priests like 'The Spiritual Life' warns Priests not to presume - for example, it's possible to be in high grades of prayer whilst still falling into sinful habits.

If you study the different writings of the Saints and the Mystics, they always describe and ongoing process of purification. It's not instant. Someone once chided me for talking about holiness whilst outwardly-appearing to attack another member. Yes, I've heard a a priest swear. It's not unusual for religious to experience sexual feelings during deep prayer. We all have failings that surge and recede like a tide - it's just the surge gradually reduces. If you were instantly-perfected, you would be Divine. You're not... you're wonderfully, beautifully human.

Something I just remembered: St Bernard of Clairvaux in 'On Loving God' describes an ongoing process of passing through four stages of love towards perfection:

- you love yourself for your own sake;
- you love God for what he gives you;
- you love God for his own sake;
- you love yourself for God's sake.

You have to learn to forgive yourself for what you believe as 'disappointing' God.

You can't accelerate this process. You will have a series of experiences and understandings where, gradually, you walk a little further along the path through each stage. If you start detaching from the world, you will notice this process happening more and more, and then You will eventually understand that everything that happens to you is divine providence, because if you didn't have those experiences, you wouldn't had gained knowledge.

I once scandalised a very young Priest by saying that every time I fell, it's like it was for a reason, because I understood my failings better through the humiliation. The more I've read, I've seen that concept isn't unknown in theology. Particularly, I've noticed a pattern of a severe humiliation striking if I've ever gotten too full of myself, reminding me that everything comes through God's grace, not my own power.

Your sin doesn't make you any less loved by God. If anything, it increases his compassion for you: "I come not to heal the healthy, but the sick". The pain you feel is a reminder to put your trust and hope in him, and not yourself.

If you'd have asked me two years ago, I would have said I was inherently-evil, God couldn't possibly-love someone like me and I was going to hell. All the Saints and writers I was oddly-drawn to all reinforced the message of God's love and mercy. I thought I was hugely-promiscuous because I loved the 'evil' of sexual intercourse.

Now, after 2 years of reading, prayer and therapy? God showed me:

I banged women compulsively because I had no true understanding of masculinity. I thought being a player made me man, much the way the outward physical externals I focused on - bodybuilding, tattoos, facial hair, exual virility seemed to accentuate the belief in my own masculinity. Who I actually was was a damaged little child whose sense of his own masculinity was stolen through sexual abuse as a toddler, and turned himself into the child's cartoon exaggeration of what he understood masculinity to be: a walking professional wrestler / GI Joe doll perverted by sexual abuse before the age of reason into a porn stud overlay. I'm an adult man who is really a child playing with an action figure, and I'm so good at it the only person in every social transaction who doesn't think I'm an Alpha Male is myself. To the extent that now I'm becoming more Christlike, I forget how I externally appear to others and keep frightening to old age pensioner types when I mean to help.

My Priest said to me recently: "You have to understand that you're a very scary man," and that he never would have picked anything wrong with me normally except for the fact he saw me struggling with a cane at the Easter Charism Mass and was told by the Holy Spirit to talk to me, because he recognised Demonic Oppression. Even then, I only ran into him later to talk about the problem by seeming-chance. Note that the Charism mass involves every Priest in the Diocese, and he was the only one who ever picked up on my problem, so don't be put off by the first Priest you approach for help not helping.

This broken sense of masculinity is what is known as a demonic wound. Everyone has one, usually a primary one. This is how the demons keep hurting you and making you sin. Now, when I'm tempted sexually, the thoughts that usually come up are related to analysing what is happening: "Why do I think this is what normal men do?", "Why is humiliating a woman considered masculine?", "Huh, these people aren't enjoying sexual intimacy, they're using each other for their own gratification, and it's taken a terrible toll on their souls." I particularly see it in their eyes. With that, the temptation often loses all power, because you see it for the twisted lie it is.

This is how God can heal you. It takes time. There's some qualities at play here in your story - the inability to practice perfection for any length of time, choosing a latin mass, a sense of your own damnation - that suggests Compulsion and Wounding could be at play. The problem isn't that you don't love God, you most likely love him very much, but that you're very afraid of him, expecting to be hit with the stick, which is what gives the temptations their obsessive power.

For your treatment, you'd have a few options:

- Ask your diocese if they have counselling available;

- More likely, ask your diocese to put you in touch with Dominican Order Therapists, if possible. They're grounded in the Summa Theologiae, so should understand compulsions and Demonic Oppression very well, assuming either of those are problems.

- You could contact a CCR (Catholic Charismatic Revival) in your area, if possible, for Deliverance Ministry by a Charismatic Priest. Some Thomist Priests might be able to do it too. If you think those demonic healing videos you see online are all people getting worked up into group hysteria, I've also experienced it via teleconference, and I was *incredibly* skeptical such a thing was even possible.

In the meantime, you need to start practising regular Catholic meditative prayer. This isn't vocal prayer. Nothing any of us can say here can convince you that God loves you. You need to practice regular meditative prayer through the Rosary and Spiritual Reading so God can infuse this knowledge directly into your heart, which you'll experience as what is known as Spiritual Consolation: a sensible reaction. You might feel at peace, you might cry silently, you might be inflamed with love. Yes, even a sinner. Once this starts, you stop reading and let yourself experience it.

God will do this regularly for as long as you're in the first stage of the spiritual life to reassure you that you're loved, and, as such, let you understand that you can love him back. Meditation has to be practiced to encourage this. He will eventually stop it as you pass into the second stage, but deal with that when it happens. His love hasn't gone anywhere. It's just you're being asked to experience him intellectually rather than emotionally.

I just recalled a podcast I watched a year ago on Ven. Bruno Lanteri- most likely God thinks it might be useful for you. It's a whole series, but it's the first search result - 'Refuse to accept discouragement'. Each day failures is a new chance to 'begin again' the next:

Be at peace mate, you're loved.


Gold Member
Rob Banks said:
I guess that's what I get for continuing to go against God (and against the advice of the forum).

No, God doesn't smite or punish. God is love. Sin is its own punishment. More likely, God is tolerating the stripping away of your ontological goods (comforts, wealth, security) so you have to cling closer to him. It's an invitation, not a condemnation.

Rob Banks

Thanks for the responses.

I'm sure that if I look back I could also find things that happened in my childhood before the age of reason that affected me and made me more susceptible to demons.

I was never sexually abused as a kid (at least not that I know of), but I didn't have a "normal" childhood by any means whatsoever. However, I don't see the point of dwelling on that stuff because thinking about it will make me hate my parents more than I already do, and I can't change the past anyway.

And yes, you're right. I often don't see how God could love someone like me, and I believe I am destined to hell.

My sins don't even come from a place of "strength" (i.e. banging lots of women, being selfish, screwing people over) but rather come from a place of weakness (i.e. being a drug addict, watching porn, not being self-sufficient at 28, violence against myself up to and including suicide threats and half-assed attempts).

I am very glad I came back to the forum and that I am able to post about this and get solid Christian advice. If this was still the old forum, I feel like I would have gotten laughed off the forum and told to "stop crying and start banging more girls" (or whatever).

It is just that whenever I try to actually put the advice into practice, I fall into thinking it is "too little, too late." People who read my other thread know why, so I won't repeat it here.

This latest setback (losing my job and dropping out of school) makes it a bit harder to get on the right path. I will now have no reason to get up in the morning and I will spend all my time alone in my room on the computer (I don't have a driver's license and I don't have friends close by). Being idle all the time and having no responsibilities makes it easier to fall into vice and sin and makes me more susceptible to demons and the devil's influence.

Some things are just too broken to be fixed.

Those around me (friends and family) have pretty much given up on me. My parents at this point have no hopes/aspirations for me and are content as long as I am not going hungry and I am not causing any trouble. My best friend, when I told him I flunked out of school, said to me "I told you not to sign up for school in the first place. I knew you would drop out. That's just the way you are. You're not strong enough." And I spoke about my wife's feelings and actions towards me in my other thread.

I know everyone here is taking the time to give me good advice and I am being negative and pessimistic, but it is just really hard to stay positive when I'm in a situation like this.

You mentioned meditation, and that actually worked for me when I did it last year. It was not Catholic meditation, it was meditation I learned from reading a book about Buddhism. But nonetheless, it helped me a lot in getting rid of lust, gaining self-control, and fighting demonic influence in general. Maybe I should get into it again.


Other Christian
AnonymousBosch said:
No, God doesn't smite or punish.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

The term God fearing exists for a reason AB. God is love, but just like any good father sometimes discipline is needed many times because you love them and want to stress to them what's right and what's wrong for their own good.


Gold Member
Rob Banks said:
And yes, you're right. I often don't see how God could love someone like me, and I believe I am destined to hell.

Then you most-likely need to: 1) understand that god loves you; and 2) mortification therapy, which is to mortifying your distorted impression of God. However, we can't do this for you over the internet and a forum isn't the right place. You need to work with either a Thomist Priest, or a Catholic Therapist - sometimes both - who understands the latter and can walk you through it. You cannot do it yourself, and I'm even wary of pointing you towards the books on the topic because in your current misunderstanding of God you are likely to dwell on the messages of judgement rather than hear the message of love.

It is just that whenever I try to actually put the advice into practice, I fall into thinking it is "too little, too late."

Yet, Jesus justified St Dismas - the Good Thief - as they both died on the cross, purely because St Dismas recognised he was a sinner and was sorry for them. There's the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where even those who come late get a great reward due to the sheer goodness of the employer. You can ask for forgiveness with your last breath, and mercy will be granted. God himself says in 'The Dialogue' that you are even given one final chance to choose him after death, if you're sorry for your sin, not just sorry that you got caught.

I will now have no reason to get up in the morning and I will spend all my time alone in my room on the computer

Then it's the perfect time to start practicing Catholic Meditation. You have plenty of spare time.

Some things are just too broken to be fixed.

Ha! I said that to God very early in the piece with regards to my parents. I said "some sins seem too great to be forgiven" and told him I'm sure he understood, and I wouldn't know where to start to repair things, and resigned myself to it being just how things are until everyone involved was dead.

Then God took over and repaired things. Everything is forgivable, everything broken can be fixed. Every pain you suffer becomes another jewel in your crown. When I meet Jesus, I'm going to trace his scars as he has traced mine, and i expect them to be identical, as he bore all of my pains for me.


All your cracks will be filled with gold. You just haven't experienced this yet.

Those around me (friends and family) have pretty much given up on me. My parents at this point have no hopes/aspirations for me and are content as long as I am not going hungry and I am not causing any trouble. My best friend, when I told him I flunked out of school, said to me "I told you not to sign up for school in the first place. I knew you would drop out. That's just the way you are. You're not strong enough." And I spoke about my wife's feelings and actions towards me in my other thread.

I remember being called back. I wrote the other day that every safety mechanism and relationship that I used to distract myself from God was removed from me, and all I had left was His Love. I realised that this makes me the richest man alive.

it is just really hard to stay positive when I'm in a situation like this.

Demons will be whispering in your ear, telling you you're garbage, telling you you can't be loved, telling you you've 'done the crime now accept the punishment' or 'you've made your own bed, now lie in it', telling you that God can never forgive you.

Not every voice you here is your actual internal monologue. To understand this, you can look into the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius of Loyola, which offers 12 reliable rules to follow when you're in the Beginner, or Purgative Way so you can separate the demonic suggestions from the divine ones. That Priest I linked to above, Timothy Gallagher, also has a multiple part series on that channel discussing these rules in great detail. It might take you 8 hours to go through it all, but you have nothing better to do.

Even knowing them, I often was still tricked. I'm now very, very good at identifying them - which means they can be 'bagged and tagged' by a Deliverance Priest, and then they're completely-silenced. They accuse and love the third person.

An example. I was praying the rosary a while back - the second joyful mystery. I love the beauty of the two pregnant women rejoicing together during the Visitation. Suddenly, a grumpy thought: "If Mary had just have had an abortion, we wouldn't be in this mess."

I was dumbstruck by how *obvious* that thought was. Note the 'we'. They always describe themselves in the plural. The Priest only needs a 'tag' like that, and Jesus does the rest during deliverance. They're gone.

You mentioned meditation, and that actually worked for me when I did it last year. It was not Catholic meditation, it was meditation I learned from reading a book about Buddhism. But nonetheless, it helped me a lot in getting rid of lust, gaining self-control, and fighting demonic influence in general. Maybe I should get into it again.

It's forbidden under Catholicism because it opens doorways to the demonic, which could be part of the problems you're having now. You only *think* it was helping you gain control at the time.

Catholic Meditation is not the same thing - it is centred on a relationship with God - I laid this out in a lengthy post a couple of pages back describing how Meditation is abandoned very quickly in the spiritual life, and that the Mystic States of Prayer are impossible to achieve through force of effort. Once you start experiencing Consolation, you'll understand the difference, but you have to make the effort to practice it. I have a great little booklet by the Carmelites on Prayer that I also think I found online recently. Let me find it for you.


It's interesting how much the Scriptures use martial language to talk about our battle with sin. It's not navel-gazing and sipping a latte. It's war. And it requires all the vigilance of a soldier and a fighting spirit against hard enemies (the world, the flesh, and the devil). Never stop fighting.

Colossians 3:5-8 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.


Gold Member
Spectrumwalker said:
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

I explained this already. You're quoting the old covenant misunderstanding of God by the Jewish Leaders - God as stern judge - under the Law of Fear. Jesus arrived to abolished that law, and revealed God's Truth, the Law of Love, that he is Abba, our merciful Father. The Catholic Church understands this truth - which is why it condemned and hated by the world - Church's under Jewish control unsurprisingly-stress the old covenant, because they despise Christ and want to control the congregation for their own purposes, and fear is a great motivator.

I mentioned Freedom of Indifference earlier that arises under the Law of Fear: what tends to arise from this is selectively-quoting scripture in isolation from itself. Under the Freedom for Excellence mindset that arises from the Law of Love, it's clear that all of scripture is related. It's an ongoing story, and Jesus' revelations at the emotional climax inverts or brings deeper meaning to the previously-held beliefs.

The Catholic Priests and Religious all understand this: the old testament was the Jewish understanding at that point in time before the Full Revelation of Jesus Christ.

God is Love. Fear is of the Devil. He loves us enough that even Purgatory isn't a given if you truly understand Mercy.

Rob's problem isn't that he's a sinner, it's that he's most-likely afflicted with a pathology that impacts his free will.

Rob this is how Thomist Psychology explains the issue of Sin committed through a passion of the sensitive appetite, including Repression, which is most likely what is happening with you: read Article 8, reply to objection 3.

"If, however, the use of reason be taken away altogether, the sin is no longer either mortal or venial."

The Catechism explains limited culpability for sin the same way.

To tell someone who is currently-deeply suffering, has suicidal thoughts and believes he is hopelessly-damned, whilst have a compulsive pathology and finally-condemning himself as a sinner that, yes, he is going to be punished by God who sends him suffering because he disobeys, when this isn't what his church teaches, is reckless, dangerous and not remotely-charitable behaviour, but that's Judeo-Christianity in action, as always: drive the sinner away from God, into further sin.

Rob, there's a book by Conrad Baars, a Catholic Therapist, called 'Feeling and healing your emotions'. Start there. It's a simplification of Thomist Psychology. You can contact the Baars institute online and see if there's a therapist in that school nearby who can treat you.

You can also find a local TPM ministry online and find help for Transformation Prayer that way.

Also, this is the Carmelite work I mentioned before, 'The Little Catechism of the Life of Prayer', by Father Gabriel, which teaches the Prayer Method of St Teresa of Avila, which is know for its rapid-advancement to higher stages of prayer. This will teach you how to pray to be shown sensible signs of God's love, and then what lies beyond it. There's only six chapters. It's a short read.

God bless you.

Rob Banks

I will order that Baars book when I get a chance. Forum member Aurini had also recommended that book to me in another thread.

I just went to the Baars institute website and they don't have any information about specific treatment options. They do have a link to a website called "Catholic Therapists," but none of them are in my area. In any case, I don't have money to pay for treatment/therapy and I wouldn't feel comfortable asking my family to pay for it (considering all the money they have spent on me that has gone to waste).

I wouldn't say I'm "hopelessly damned." I just believe that at some point, I have to take responsibility for my own life. It's "sink or swim," as they say. The strong (and by "strong" I mean mentally and spiritually strong) will prosper and the weak will suffer what they must.

People on this forum, priests, friends, and family members can give me lots of good advice, but it is up to me to find the strength to follow it. As they say, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

If my upbringing/childhood experiences/whatever has made me spiritually weak and unable to follow God's law, that's too bad. It is my responsibility to be strong (regardless of my upbringing and past experiences), and if I am unable to do so, the only one who will suffer is me (and of course those who care about me or depend on me).

I'm not sure that God makes exceptions for people to sin and disobey Him based on their individual circumstances. Some people are blessed with a good upbringing and mental/emotional strength. Some are not. Both are held to the same standard when judged by God, and both will suffer and be damned if they are unable to submit to God's law.

I am not just saying this based on theological beliefs. I am saying it based on personal experience.

I grew up with parents who always provided food and shelter for me and were never violent or abusive, but aside from that they did absolutely nothing to instill values, faith, or virtue in me. Both of my parents are very spiritually weak themselves, and they could not handle the responsibility of raising a family. I was taught to "be free" and "do whatever feels good," and in my youth I took this to an absolute extreme (doing hard drugs, engaging in sexual sin, and having absolutely no work ethic or sense of responsibility).

However, I cannot use this as an excuse for weakness and sin. If anything, I believe my upbringing will cause me to be punished by God more, not less, since I am being punished for both my parents' sins and my own.

As you yourself said, AB, demonic influence can be passed down from generation to generation. I believe Leonard said something similar recently in another thread.

EDIT: When I say "I am being punished for my parents' sins," what I mean is that my parents are being punished for their own sins, and part of their punishment is that their son has to suffer and live a fucked up life.

EDIT #2: I just reread Leonard's post above and now I'm not sure how much of what I just wrote is realistic/necessary and how much of it is coming from the devil who wants me to believe I am a bad person and there's no way out.

I don't want to be fooled by the devil into believing "It is my nature to be bad and there's no way out," but I also don't want to be unrealistic and tell myself "God loves me and there's always hope" if it isn't true.

Tail Gunner

Gold Member
AnonymousBosch said:
I explained this already. You're quoting the old covenant misunderstanding of God by the Jewish Leaders - God as stern judge - under the Law of Fear. Jesus arrived to abolished that law, and revealed God's Truth, the Law of Love, that he is Abba, our merciful Father.

Listen to the actual words of Jesus: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17 KJV. He was very clear on this point. Lest you believe that I am taking it out of context:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 17-22 KJV.

Jesus was loving, but stern, just like His Father. He was no limp-wristed sissy, but a strong, burly carpenter.


@TailGunner @AnonymousBosch

By Jesus forgiveness come. By Jesus judgment come. God the Father has done everything by his son since creation.

Jesus is both gentleness and firmness depending on situation. It isn't either/or proposition.

For those who are saved we can expect a lot of patience and gentleness from God. However must expect the rod of discipline from God if we go too far.

David being an example of the rod of discipline being applied.


Other Christian
@Rob I don't know your whole story. But I can relate to struggle with sin as a believer and a sense of anger towards God. I myself went down a pretty dark road even as a believer. A road Im still mentally recovering from. Just because you believe in Jesus and become a Christian doesn't mean you're instantly walking around with a halo like your shit don't stink. Paul himself struggled as well. I'll post scripture below that may offer some comfort. The struggle is real for all men. Unless your Jesse Lee Peterson. I don't know who this Barrs character is. But instead of reading books about the Bible. Read the actual BibleThere's a lot of talk here in these posts but one thing you'll always notice is zero Bible and I'd be very wary of any theological advice given here as a newcomer to the faith or one struggling. As far as falling away from God read the story prodigal son. At the end he was still a son. John the Baptist himself at one point grew weary of Jesus going so far as to even doubt him wondering if he was the messiah or if they should keep waiting. There's a lot of inspiration and comfort to be found in the Bible. Jesus himself said the scriptures!

Romans 7:15-25 KJV
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I don't know what you believe exactly Rob. Good news is even if you battle with yourself, if you accept the Gospel, the good news of Jesus's death burial and resurrection, when you take your last breath you can know for sure you'll go to heaven instead of Hell. God is not a liar, and his gift is eternal.
1 John 5 11-13
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Study the Bible. Gospel of John is the best place to start. Learn about God from his own mind and words. Not what other men think about God. Sometimes it takes hitting rock bottom passed out in a puddle of your own puke after a wild night out coming to the next morning thinking to yourself "God was right. I was wrong. "

Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Keep your chin up bro. Once you believe the Gospel and receive the Holy spirit you'll always a child of God. Always. If I could sum up the Bible in one word it would be fatherhood.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Leonard D Neubache

Gold Member
I believe in Christ's sacrifice to forgive us of our sins and God's infinite grace.

People can selectively quote scripture all they like. What they cannot reconcile is the purpose of Christ's sacrifice with a vengeful OT God. These are incompatible understandings of God's nature, as viable as a milk and orange juice cocktail.

Here's one of the favorites of atheists. "Sorry, little Johnny, but the man who murdered you and your parents is up here in heaven with us now because he repented his sins on his deathbed, I hope you understand".

And the reason atheists use this tactic is because frankly where Old Testament Judeo-Christians are concerned it is a flawless killshot on the fundamental weak spot of the Old Testament understanding of "justice" in a broader spiritual sense.

We see this persistently with people who place an emphasis on the Old Testament fire and brimstone God who cannot seem to find any grounding whatsoever for what constitutes a forgivable sin or an unforgivable sin or a punishment from God or why God punishes some in an earthly sense while punishing others in the afterlife. All you can discern with the Old Testament is that it is basically a giant legalistic mess of shame spiraling, accusations, purity signalling and lawyering that is basically extremely Judeo and not very Christian.

I am not accusing anyone here specifically but having been raised "Old Testament" I have had a strong insight into the judgmental, accusatory and wrathful world views it creates. The visage of that mentality is the Happy Merchant who, feeling himself wronged by another, viciously with spittle covered lips calls down God's wrath upon the supposed wrongdoer. We have already suffered discussions on this thread about what sins constitute irredeemable damnation. How ridiculously trite a concept. That God himself is somehow bound by a law higher than His own will to damn someone if they commit sin (X). Enforced by whom, one might ask, but this is what many people favoring the Old Testament actually believe. That they can scrutinise the whole of the Bible and use it to determine who God may not allow to enter Heaven even if he wanted to. This lawyering is incredibly important to some people because it allows them to presume God's judgement and therefore enact it prior to God even getting involved. That they may presume God's judgement and judge in his place.

For example we see arguments that homosexuals are closed to God's forgiveness (regardless of Christ's sacrifice) therefore there is no point reforming them.

Certainly from the perspective of the wayward homosexual there is no point reforming if God's forgiveness is closed to him. Now who I wonder would benefit from someone beliving that there is no point reforming. Who would want to give someone a road-map to His Divine Grace which reads "all roads closed, you're stuffed"? Who benefits in the spiritual war by drafting souls with the lie of presumed damnation?

I believe that we create our own suffering in most cases, and in other cases it is people operating under the influence of sin who create suffering for the rest. God does not need to strike anyone down. We and the fallen ones do that all by ourselves. And in our ego-driven wrathful sense of vengeance we love to assign the downfall of someone wicked (or who double-parked across our car, or whatever) to "God's wrath". Meanwhile a thousand other people will double-park the same day and suffer no consequences, but when the guy who does it to you gets rear-ended then like the happy merchant we giggle with glee and screech "God is great, he punishes the wicked".


God's forgiveness is infinite. Only we harm ourselves, harm others, and are harmed by them, with the help of the fallen ones of course. That is the nature of Christ's accord with man.

"But Leonard, he said spare the rod, spoil the child". Yes, and if you can't figure out the difference between a father raising his child down here in the dirt and God administering his grace to the souls of all mankind then I'm not really sure what to tell you. Perhaps if God said "brush your teeth twice a day" we would have to contend that God had teeth and he too needed to brush them twice a day.

No h8, m8s. Anonymousbosch is right. God is not interested in taking pot-shots at his own children. Take the Judeo out of Judeo-Christian. I don't think Christ really needs the prefix, thankyou very much.

Alternately I'd really appreciate a datasheet breaking down Deliverance into sin-points for transgressions, redemption points for penitence and good works, mitigating factors in the form of point multipliers and a detailed list of red-card offences. I'd also like to know what level of Heaven each amount of points gets you access to. Hopefully we can recreate the Jewish understanding of God's judgement prior to Christ's arrival.


At the cross we have been judged and found guilty and punished in accordance with our sins. In the 3 hours of darkness on Calvary Christ was seen as all of us and treated as us and punished the equivalent of the lake of fire for all eternity.

Yet Christ in his perfection gave us his righteousness and a clean slate in the sight of God the Father upon which we shall be rewarded for our works.

In this way the Stern Judge can be merciful unto us because we have already paid the price in Christ.

Since all our sins are already punished and justice fulfilled that reward is then possible for our deeds.


Rob Banks said:
So if the Old Testament God is "Jewish" and not "Christian," does that mean that the Old Testament is wrong/false?

No. this is an old heresy called "Marcionism"

Jesus Christ followed and obeyed all Jewish Law.

It is the same God. We live under the new Covenant, this is the key difference as I understand it. Christ has made the sacrafice for our sins, We can receive the sacraments, we have his teachings to guide us, along with the new testament and the saints. We can receive the holy spirit through his Grace.

The old Covenant and the God who created it through Abraham & Moses is the same God. It is the covenant that has changed.
NoMoreTO said:
Jesus Christ followed and obeyed all Jewish Law.


There was no such thing as "jewish" law in the times of Christ.

The "law" was 3 parts, it was secular law "give unto the emperor what is his" and then there was "the law" concerned with sacrifice, cleanliness and rites, which belonged to the Sadducees. Then there were the Pharisees, practising the Babylonian Talmud and Kaballah, and these were the sworn enemies of Christ.

There's absolutely zero historical doubt that Yawhe (adonai) is not the same god as El (elohim).

El, or God, or father, is Jesus Christ.

Yawhe is an semittic fire demon.

Some time following the invasion of the Assyrians and the siege of Jerusalem, the cult of Yawhe, came to prominence, because of his reputation as a powerful god of war. The jews made a pact with Yawhe to drive away the Assyrans, but dooming themselves in the process. After that point, Yawhe began to be written into the Bible, taking over the stories of El.