The God pill

NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
nomadbrah said:
NoMoreTO said:
Jesus Christ followed and obeyed all Jewish Law.

Nonsense.

There was no such thing as "jewish" law in the times of Christ.

The "law" was 3 parts, it was secular law "give unto the emperor what is his" and then there was "the law" concerned with sacrifice, cleanliness and rites, which belonged to the Sadducees. Then there were the Pharisees, practising the Babylonian Talmud and Kaballah, and these were the sworn enemies of Christ.

There's absolutely zero historical doubt that Yawhe (adonai) is not the same god as El (elohim).

El, or God, or father, is Jesus Christ.

Yawhe is an semittic fire demon.

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology...in-canaanite-vulcan-says-new-theory-1.5992072

Some time following the invasion of the Assyrians and the siege of Jerusalem, the cult of Yawhe, came to prominence, because of his reputation as a powerful god of war. The jews made a pact with Yawhe to drive away the Assyrans, but dooming themselves in the process. After that point, Yawhe began to be written into the Bible, taking over the stories of El.

I'm not sure what religion or magazine this is you get your info from. I am Roman Catholic so we don't believe this. And I believe @RobBanks is RC too. Marcionism was defined as a heresy in the 2nd Century.
 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
NoMoreTO said:
Rob Banks said:
So if the Old Testament God is "Jewish" and not "Christian," does that mean that the Old Testament is wrong/false?

No. this is an old heresy called "Marcionism"

Jesus Christ followed and obeyed all Jewish Law.

It is the same God. We live under the new Covenant, this is the key difference as I understand it. Christ has made the sacrafice for our sins, We can receive the sacraments, we have his teachings to guide us, along with the new testament and the saints. We can receive the holy spirit through his Grace.

The old Covenant and the God who created it through Abraham & Moses is the same God. It is the covenant that has changed.

Chapter 12 of the Gospel of St. Matthew touches relevantly upon this subject.

It just so happens that after reading the preceding few pages and AB's observations, that Chapter 12 happened to be the next extract in line for republication here. I will not call this ironic, nor am I confident to say this is coincidental.
 

infowarrior1

Crow
Protestant
@nomadbrah

Jesus and the apostles considered it all authoritative. Quotations from the Law and Prophets is found all over and even the Gospels has Jesus opening the scriptures to show how he was the Christ or Messiah.
 

infowarrior1

Crow
Protestant
@Leonard D Neubache

I disagree. The most blatant example of Jesus being the OT vengeful judge is the entire book of Revelation.

His teachings of hell all involve he himself dispensing vengeance on unrepentant sinners.

Jesus is as much Warrior King as he is the Lamb.
 
No, there is not a single mention of YWWH in the New Testament.

Not one.

If you believe that Jesus Christ our Lord is "jehova", then you're a Latter Day Saint or a Mormon or something, but you're not a christian.

There can be zero doubt what so ever, that the genocidal, psychopath written about in the thorah is not Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
 
infowarrior1 said:
@nomadbrah

Jesus and the apostles considered it all authoritative. Quotations from the Law and Prophets is found all over and even the Gospels has Jesus opening the scriptures to show how he was the Christ or Messiah.

Did he say anything, anything at all, that collaberated the genocidal, wrathful, psychopathic behavior of yahwe?

No.
 

Tail Gunner

Hummingbird
Gold Member
nomadbrah said:
infowarrior1 said:
@nomadbrah

Jesus and the apostles considered it all authoritative. Quotations from the Law and Prophets is found all over and even the Gospels has Jesus opening the scriptures to show how he was the Christ or Messiah.

Did he say anything, anything at all, that collaberated the genocidal, wrathful, psychopathic behavior of yahwe?

No.

Well, I do not know what you mean by that, but Jesus spoke at great length about something far more scary and eternal: Hell.

Jesus talked about Hell more than any other person in the Bible. In Luke 16, he describes a great chasm over which “none may cross from there to us.” In Matthew 25, Jesus tells of a time when people will be separated into two groups, one entering into his presence, the other banished to “eternal fire.”

Jesus doesn’t only reference Hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls Hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded.

Jesus talks about Hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned against the absolute reality of Hell.

So, you may see the creation and existence of Hell as wrathful and psychopathic, but God can do whatever He wishes. He cares not for your opinion -- and He has warned us plenty.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
These last few posts illuminate why, at one point in Church history, laypeople were told not to read and interpret the Old Testament for themselves. It’s easy to get the wrong idea when you aren’t viewing it through a Christological lens, and/or haven’t read Revelation, coming to the false conclusion that the Old Testament is “mean” and the New Testament is “nice.” Marcionism is one of the earliest known heresies, second only perhaps to Docetism, and is a good example of why it’s important to ground your understanding in the Fathers rather than your own opinions.

Nomadbrah - when Thomas feels the wounds on the risen Savior’s hands, he cries out “My Lord and my God!”

The specific Greek words he used are kyrios and theos - kyrios, Lord, is used many times to refer to one’s master or superior. Theos is never used in any other sense than to refer to God.

Christ tells the Pharisees that if they believed in Moses, they’d believe in Him - since He is the one the old Old Testament is about.
 

The Resilient

Ostrich
Orthodox
MichaelWitcoff said:
Christ tells the Pharisees that if they believed in Moses, they’d believe in Him - since He is the one the old Old Testament is about.

Hey Michael,Do you consider the modern jews of today of the Pharisee/Saduccee types of yesteryear ?

not to detract from the OP, was just curious
 
Marcionism is a heresy because it is dualistic and doesn't regard God as the creator.

That is not at all the same as saying Yahwe is an impostor written into the Old Testament by jewish cults in 600bc under Assyrian siege.

Let's recap:

Saying that the wrathful god of the Old Testament is not the same god as the benevolent and compassionate god in the Old Testament is not a heresy.

What IS a heresy is Judaizing.

"...This term includes groups who claim the necessity of continued obedience to the Law of Moses found in the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) for gentiles..."

Adherence to the Pentateuch is Judaizing and is a heresy.

"...Most Christians believe that much of the Old Covenant has been superseded, while according to some modern Protestants it has been completely abrogated and replaced by the Law of Christ..."

I'm a protestant, under Martin Luther, who warned us about the dangers of judaizing and I believe the Old Testament has been completely abolished and replaced by the Law of Christ.

Judaizing is THE heresy which has brought down every country where it has happened. It brought down Czarist Russia and now its bringing down America.

What I find completely ABHORRENT, is that people here actually try to call such protestant views as heresy. To me that seems extremely suspicious.
 

Athanasius

Pelican
Protestant
The NT was written in Greek and OT quotes come from the Greek Septuagint. In most places YHWH is translated there as Kyrios. Hebrews 1:8 says "But of the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God (Kyrios), is forever and ever.'" This is quoted from Ps 45:6, which says "Your throne, O God (Yahweh), is forever and ever." There is continuity and none of the Reformers denied it.
 
nomadbrah said:
Marcionism is a heresy because it is dualistic and doesn't regard God as the creator.

That is not at all the same as saying Yahwe is an impostor written into the Old Testament by jewish cults in 600bc under Assyrian siege.

nomadbrah said:
Saying that the wrathful god of the Old Testament is not the same god as the benevolent and compassionate god in the Old Testament is not a heresy.

These statements are not compatible. The New Testament authors not only constantly quote the Old Testament as scripture, they explicitly identify their God as being the creator. John's Gospel opens by testifying this, and a few chapters later (John 8:58), Christ goes so far as to say, "before Abraham was, I am." He was calling himself the same God that spoke to Moses in the burning bush, and this was not lost on the Jews who immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy.

St. Paul opens 1 Corinthians 10 by stating that the Israelites in the desert ate the same spiritual food and drink that we do, because the spiritual rock that accompanied them was Christ. Once again, an allusion to the Old Testament God who called himself the Rock.

In Luke 4:16-21, Christ reads from the prophet Isaiah then announces to the Jews, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." This set the precedent for how Christians would understand the Old Testament, realizing that it was about Christ. As Michael Witcoff pointed out above, this is how we have to look at the Old Testament - through a Christological lense.

In Acts, chapter 7, Stephen delivers a long speech to the Jews, showing them the continuity of the Old Testament with the New. In Acts 10 God explains to Peter that following the Old Covenant laws is no longer necessary, and in Acts 15 the Church officially declared this to the believers. But nowhere is the Old Testament itself or the God it speaks of disparaged. Instead we see it quoted constantly as an authoritative source.

This is why the Marcionists had to do away with books of scripture left and right: because there is no room in the scriptures for the idea that the Old and New Testaments speak of a different God.
 

Tail Gunner

Hummingbird
Gold Member
nomadbrah said:
What I find completely ABHORRENT, is that people here actually try to call such protestant views as heresy. To me that seems extremely suspicious.

I try to directly refer to scripture every time I try to answer a question regarding the Bible.

I might be mistaken, but I have not seen you refer to Scripture even once regarding any of your claims.

I attended a church for many years where the pastor refused to refer to any source other than the Bible (aside from occasionally citing Charles Spurgeon, who he considered the greatest Protestant preacher of all time). Always go to the source first, then consult the finest minds (regarding proper interpretation). Garbage in, garbage out.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
So I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but I didn't want to start a whole new thread.

I go to a traditional SSPX church, and I asked my priest today about meditation. I told him I learned how to meditate by reading a book on Buddhism.

He told me to stay away from Buddhism. I told him I thought there was a lot of wisdom in Buddhism (not the Western pacifist "Buddhism," but real Eastern Buddhism). The priest told me "In every lie there is some truth" and kept encouraging me to stay away from Buddhism.

I don't plan on becoming a Buddhist, but what are you guys' thoughts on whether or not there is any wisdom to be gained from Buddhism (or other Eastern philosophies) as a Christian?
 

NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
Listen to your Priest. You are Catholic, if you are going to an SSPX Parish you likely have a very solid Priest.

I would recommend you to practice obedience to his guidance and stop meditating and reading buddhism. Pray the Rosary and Read the Bible instead.
 
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