The God pill
- Thread starter Roosh
- Start date
AnonymousBosch said:
Matthew 22:
34. *But the Pharisees hearing that he had put the Sadducees to silence, came together:
35. And one of them, a doctor of law, asked of him, tempting him,
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. JESUS said to him, Thou shalt love the lord thy God from thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38. This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39. And the second is like to this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40. On these two commandments dependeth the whole Law and the Prophets.
Rob Banks
Pelican
I started trying to learn to pray the Rosary today.
It turns out I need a Bible, so I will have to order one online.
Also, it turns out the rosary has over 50 different prayers (5 x 10 Hail Marys plus other prayers). Up until now, I have been praying the Lord's Prayer once every couple of days (if at all) and that's it.
Should I immediately start praying the whole Rosary, or should I start slow and build up to it?
It turns out I need a Bible, so I will have to order one online.
Also, it turns out the rosary has over 50 different prayers (5 x 10 Hail Marys plus other prayers). Up until now, I have been praying the Lord's Prayer once every couple of days (if at all) and that's it.
Should I immediately start praying the whole Rosary, or should I start slow and build up to it?
Rob Banks said:
Personally I think one should pray what is on ones mind and it must come from the heart. The Lord's Prayer is a template on the way and manner of prayer not a mechanical routine. Read the Psalms and the prayers of the saints in the bible those righteous men and the way their prayed will help you to pray.
We should avoid all prayers as if checking off a list or vain repetition
(Matthew 6:7, KJV)
You are speaking to God. Address your Heavenly Father as a person. You are conversing with him.
Rob Banks
Pelican
infowarrior1 said:
Yeah, I've been trying to do that too.
Actually, when I first started praying, I didn't even know the Lord's Prayer, so I would only kneel and talk to God and say what was on my mind (rather than saying a formal pre-written prayer).
Now, when I pray (which I don't do enough of), I will maybe say the Lord's Prayer and then just speak to God what is on my mind.
Rob Banks said:
I would recommend Douay Rheims. Its a popular Catholic Bible from the time when first tranlations were done. Actually older than KJV.
Rob Banks said:
That's great news! For me this was a game changer. IF you pray the Rosary every day this will help you so much.
You are Catholic so should follow Catholic advice. The rosary is a powerful prayer, others here who have never prayed it will call it vain repetition but it is not. Although we do have to guard against saying all these prayers and our mind slipping. Prayer for the Intercession of the Blessed Virgin is incredibly powerful.
If you wanted to start small you could pray a decade, which would be Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, 1 Glory be. Some people will split these out through their day if they are particularly busy.
But I would encourage you to do the whole thing on your knees. When I began doing this it was a major change for me and it felt so long. You can stop and meditate on the rosaries and not rush through it. Remember to pay attention to the virtues in each decade, and how they relate to the mystery.
"Eg. Resurrection of Christ we pray for the Virtue of Faith"
Rob Banks said:
I am not sure exactly how you are praying and obviously can't judge. I have heard it is better to focus on God than on your life.
Try to ask God what his will is, or so that you may know his will and walk the path he wants for you. Ask him to make a change in you to improve something you are struggling with spiritually.
I will repeat AB's recommendation of the archive.org-available version of Tanquerey's The Spiritual Life if you're looking for the car manual on asceticism if not indeed a guide to what prayer is about and why.
As I understand Tanquerey -- and literally dozens of Catholic saints and theologians over the centuries from whom he draws the teachings -- the fundamentals of beginning prayer, the things to keep in mind when praying are these:
(1) For the glory of God. Or ad dei majorem gloriam, A.D.M.G. as Catholic students taught by Jesuits were taught to enter into their copybooks, "for the greater glory of God." This is the primary reason we seek salvation and amendment of our lives, that God may be glorified through us.
(2) Seek the graces required for salvation and eternal life, with material and earthly concerns secondary if at all. Thus Christ's words: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." The graces God grants are for our perfection ahead of eternal life after death, and they are the first object.
(3) Humility before God. We are loved, endlessly, unconditionally, by God; but we are still little and tiny before God, creator, prime mover, and immanent in all things; and so we must remember. It is important to remember, though, that even in that smallness, we are still loved completely: Therese of Lisieux's metaphor of us as the little wildflower by the path amid the great flowers and eagles of the great saints circling the Sun, but God made all of us and loves us all equally.
(4) Examination of conscience prior to prayer. This was something I was taught long ago and had forgotten it; it assists in rememberance of our humility, but also focuses us on what graces we seek from God, what amendments we must seek. There are plenty of sample examinations -- things to ask ourselves -- online. The purpose of this examination, again, is not to self-flagellate or trick ourselves that God could not love sinners like us; he can, and he does, unconditionally. It is no different than weighing yourself ahead of commencing a path of physical fitness; it is to measure what we need help to amend.
(5) Ask, and ask with confidence. Also see, as AB puts it, to trust in God. This is the central element of faith; not belief in something unprovable, but confidence that the creator of the universe and all things acknowledges and will answer our prayer, and provide the graces required. God knows what we need, but we still must ask nonetheless. If you want an example of asking, and asking with confidence, consider the Roman centurion from Luke:
This centurion and his confidence are remembered in every Catholic mass: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you; but only say the word, and I shall be healed.
(6) Thanksgiving: we end the prayer with thanks to God for listening to our prayer.
I suspect that the Lord's Prayer, said mindfully, addresses all of these subjects; hence why Christ gave it to us.
But as said, all of these should -- must -- combined with genuine desire. Not necessarily emotion; we do not have to work ourselves up to a fever to pray, but the heart and mind have to be genuinely seeking God.
As I understand Tanquerey -- and literally dozens of Catholic saints and theologians over the centuries from whom he draws the teachings -- the fundamentals of beginning prayer, the things to keep in mind when praying are these:
(1) For the glory of God. Or ad dei majorem gloriam, A.D.M.G. as Catholic students taught by Jesuits were taught to enter into their copybooks, "for the greater glory of God." This is the primary reason we seek salvation and amendment of our lives, that God may be glorified through us.
(2) Seek the graces required for salvation and eternal life, with material and earthly concerns secondary if at all. Thus Christ's words: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." The graces God grants are for our perfection ahead of eternal life after death, and they are the first object.
(3) Humility before God. We are loved, endlessly, unconditionally, by God; but we are still little and tiny before God, creator, prime mover, and immanent in all things; and so we must remember. It is important to remember, though, that even in that smallness, we are still loved completely: Therese of Lisieux's metaphor of us as the little wildflower by the path amid the great flowers and eagles of the great saints circling the Sun, but God made all of us and loves us all equally.
(4) Examination of conscience prior to prayer. This was something I was taught long ago and had forgotten it; it assists in rememberance of our humility, but also focuses us on what graces we seek from God, what amendments we must seek. There are plenty of sample examinations -- things to ask ourselves -- online. The purpose of this examination, again, is not to self-flagellate or trick ourselves that God could not love sinners like us; he can, and he does, unconditionally. It is no different than weighing yourself ahead of commencing a path of physical fitness; it is to measure what we need help to amend.
(5) Ask, and ask with confidence. Also see, as AB puts it, to trust in God. This is the central element of faith; not belief in something unprovable, but confidence that the creator of the universe and all things acknowledges and will answer our prayer, and provide the graces required. God knows what we need, but we still must ask nonetheless. If you want an example of asking, and asking with confidence, consider the Roman centurion from Luke:
This centurion and his confidence are remembered in every Catholic mass: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you; but only say the word, and I shall be healed.
(6) Thanksgiving: we end the prayer with thanks to God for listening to our prayer.
I suspect that the Lord's Prayer, said mindfully, addresses all of these subjects; hence why Christ gave it to us.
But as said, all of these should -- must -- combined with genuine desire. Not necessarily emotion; we do not have to work ourselves up to a fever to pray, but the heart and mind have to be genuinely seeking God.
Rob Banks said:
Understand you can't take the advice of Non-Catholic about this particular devotion. They misunderstand it as 'worshipping' Mary, rather than experiencing an understanding of God through the experiences of the Mother. She functions here as an intercessor, the way she asked Jesus to spare the embarrassment of the bridal couple at Cana. If you pray the Rosary regularly, she will lead you to Jesus, deposit you safely in his hands, and then humbly-recede back into the background.
Start with Five Mysteries a day
The daily schedule is here:
https://www.rosarycenter.org/homepage-2/rosary/how-to-pray-the-rosary/
Note that the Luminous were only recently-added, and are optional. I don't pray them.
My schedule used to be:
Mon / Thurs - Joyful Mysteries
Tues / Friday - Sorrowful Mysteries
Wed / Sat - Glorious Mysteries
Sunday depends on the time of year:
Advent / Christmas - Joyful
Lent - Sorrowful
Rest of Year - Glorious
However, sometime last December with the closing of the Monastery here, I shifted into Eucharistic Adoration from 6-7 am every day, Daily Mass from 7-7:40 am, the Stations of the Cross until 8:10, and then started praying the full 15 mysteries later each day, usually mid-morning, silently whilst walking, but that kind of 'power rosary' - as my Priest calls it, meaning prayer during activity - is for later on down the track. For now, be still and pray it vocally. The Rosary as a vocal prayer that is your training wheels for meditation: you are learning to do something uncomfortable and seemingly-initially-tedious, choosing to give up your will to be uncomfortable for God, until you start receiving infused knowledge during it.
You are training yourself to, in a month of so, start sitting down for 15 minutes at another time of day, and to practice Catholic Meditation with a scriptural or Meditative Reading, without getting distracted and fidgeting. That's where you'd use The Little Catechism of Prayer I linked earlier. I used to think in terms of 'doing' the Rosary in the early days, eventually you start 'praying' it, because the sense of burden and inconvenience is removed.
Since you're starting out, and if you're unfamiliar with the Mysteries, you could use this method, which has a particular point of meditation for each bead of the decade. Once you're relatively familiar with each mystery in this manner, give up that structure let your mind go where it takes you in each mysteries. You might pray 10 beads thinking on 'And the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.'.
https://www.rosarycenter.org/homepa...rosary/joyful-mysteries-without-distractions/
https://www.rosarycenter.org/homepa...ay-the-rosary/sorrowful-without-distractions/
https://www.rosarycenter.org/homepage-2/rosary/how-to-pray-the-rosary/glorious-without-distractions/
This is Father Chad Ripperger, a Catholic Exorcist, explaining the Promises of the Rosary. He's a Thomist Priest, and his advice has been always reliable for me.
A longer video on its effects in Spiritual Warfare.
It would also be worth listening to this when you have an hour and identifying your Spiritual Temperament, then follow his advice. Doing what was suggested for my Temperament - Melancholic - means I can now no longer call myself one, and am now showing more Choleric tendencies. With perfection, you should have an equal balance of the positive qualities of all four temperaments with none of the negatives.
Paracelsus said:
A quick word about a movie like 'Jesus of Nazareth'. The Catholic idea of Mary is far more complex than in an American Denomination Presentation. We believe Mary is part of the Redemption Process, as a New Eve, undoing mankind's Fall with the New Adam (Jesus). She becomes the Ark of the New Covenant, a living tabernacle that carries the Christ Child. She doesn't huff and puff and sweat and give birth to Jesus: she falls into a trance and he passes out her side, the same way Eve was taken from Adam's rib. At Calvary, she undoes the sin of Eve, by obeying God's will, putting the fruit (Jesus) back on the tree (the Cross). Golgotha, where the crucifixion happens, is known as the 'Mount of the Skull'. Catholic tradition teaches this is referring to Adam's Skull - which is buried underneath where Jesus is crucified. This adds incredibly-richness, symmetry and perfection to God's plan for the Redemption.
Note the Douay Rheims translation ('she shall crush thy head') and the King James ('he will strike at your head') have different translations of whom finally does Satan in, so those who follow those translations won't understand her significance the way Catholics do.
Also, many aspects of the Passion are also about undoing the Old Covenant: for example, the blood that flows from Jesus' side is to mirror the blood that would wash from the Temple after Animal Sacrifices had been accepted for sin. There were to be no more blood sacrifices after this in the New Covenant, or it would offend God. Denominations that disregard Mary seem to want to built the Third Temple in Israel, opposing God's Will. Mary is said to be a powerful ally against Demonic Deception.
^ Rob: I forgot to say...
If you're praying the Rosary, and you receive Spiritual Consolation, stay in it. This will be felt as a sensible knowledge of God's love: you might be overwhelmed with joy, your eyes might leak gentle tears, your heart might swell, you might be shown clear imaginative visions. You have found what you were seeking in prayer: God is now directly talking to you and wants you to drink from the torrent of His love, undistracted. You may abandon the prayer and return to it after He lets go again.
Sometimes Prayer will be dry and you mightn't receive Consolation for days. Don't give up prayer, and don't assume he's 'given up' on you: God wants you to seek Him in the absence of Consolation, by Faith. These dry prayers have far greater spiritual merit. A cloud is currently covering the sun - the sun hasn't gone anywhere - you wait patiently, trust in the sun's return.
Eventually, these Consolations become rare. This simply means you're passing into the next stage of the interior life, and what replaces it is far superior to these high emotions.
If you're praying the Rosary, and you receive Spiritual Consolation, stay in it. This will be felt as a sensible knowledge of God's love: you might be overwhelmed with joy, your eyes might leak gentle tears, your heart might swell, you might be shown clear imaginative visions. You have found what you were seeking in prayer: God is now directly talking to you and wants you to drink from the torrent of His love, undistracted. You may abandon the prayer and return to it after He lets go again.
Sometimes Prayer will be dry and you mightn't receive Consolation for days. Don't give up prayer, and don't assume he's 'given up' on you: God wants you to seek Him in the absence of Consolation, by Faith. These dry prayers have far greater spiritual merit. A cloud is currently covering the sun - the sun hasn't gone anywhere - you wait patiently, trust in the sun's return.
Eventually, these Consolations become rare. This simply means you're passing into the next stage of the interior life, and what replaces it is far superior to these high emotions.
Rob Banks said:
Get a King James Bible classic. Or get Berean Study Bible:
https://bereanbible.com/
You can download or get a physical copy.
Rob Banks said:
You can also derive from the Lord's prayer what subjects that are within his will:
Addressing our Heavenly Father when praying.
Basically holy is God's name. To hallow is to treat as set apart. Worship and Praise may fit in there too.
Anything related to the advancement of God's Kingdom his Church on earth. The well-being of his believers. Dangers facing God's people and so forth. That's when you pray for fellow believers.
As above. Not my will but your will as I would often pray. This is to align what you want with what God wants. Not what you think is best but we he thinks best.
At the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus submitted to the Father despite the price he is about to pay.
As above. That earth may manifest the cosmic order. As Jesus sees his Father so do he does also.
As Jesus himself said:
This will ultimately be fulfilled after the 2nd coming.
Daily needs. Basics like food, shelter and so on. Personal needs as well.
Related to sin. And your inner life.
As above and also highlights the importance of forgiven others.
Help with temptation towards evil.
Praying for deliverance from the Devil and his demonic hordes.
This is what I mean as to the LORD's prayer as a template. This is how Jesus taught us to pray.
Is it wrong to yearn for nice, pleasant and beautiful things? Is it wrong to yearn for pleasure? Sometimes I think no, it's not, because when we yearn for them, deep down we know that what we're really yearning for is the thing (the one) that makes those things beautiful.
Why is an orgasm so good? Or nice tasting food? Or comfort and sunshine? Why is money so nice to have? I don't see anything wrong with wanting these things, as long as there's an understanding that each of those things is an expression of something (someone) deeper.
There's a difference between merely gratifying the senses (jerking off like a bonobo, scratching an itch) and admiring whatever it is that makes a beautiful girl beautiful, appreciating sensuality and being moved by it. There's a difference between wanting a fat wallet and lots of money in the bank just to show off, and wanting abundance so that you can hold your head up high with pride (self respect) make wise spending choices and maybe help others too.
We don't know what God looks like and we wouldn't live if we did. So I see nothing wrong with enjoying Him via all the relatively superficial things that we do have access to.
Why is an orgasm so good? Or nice tasting food? Or comfort and sunshine? Why is money so nice to have? I don't see anything wrong with wanting these things, as long as there's an understanding that each of those things is an expression of something (someone) deeper.
There's a difference between merely gratifying the senses (jerking off like a bonobo, scratching an itch) and admiring whatever it is that makes a beautiful girl beautiful, appreciating sensuality and being moved by it. There's a difference between wanting a fat wallet and lots of money in the bank just to show off, and wanting abundance so that you can hold your head up high with pride (self respect) make wise spending choices and maybe help others too.
We don't know what God looks like and we wouldn't live if we did. So I see nothing wrong with enjoying Him via all the relatively superficial things that we do have access to.
^ Rob, the King James is not a Catholic Bible, and is missing multiple books that were removed by Martin Luther because they contradicted his personal beliefs, such as anything that discussed the necessity of Works, rather than Faith alone, and offers different translations of words that also suit his agenda. All of this contradicts the final warning at the end of the New Testament about modifying the work to suit one's own personal beliefs.
The historical record also shows King James was a homosexual.
https://edwardtbabinski.us/history/king-james-was-gay.html
You either need the 1682-1610 or 1800's revision of the Douai-Rheims Bible, or one of the Catholic-approved easier to read modern translations.
160 of the Priests who worked on the Douai Rheims translation were murdered by English Reformationists, as well as anyone who harboured them or took mass with them. These men were disembowled and had their entrails cast into a fire before their eyes, before being hung, then cut into pieces which were then parboiled and put on public display as a warning. They are known as the Douai-Martyrs and were beatified in 1929.
The first of these, John Houghton, prayed through his entire disembowelment.
When the executioner hacked his chest open to pull out his heart, his final words being "O Jesus, what wouldst thou do with my heart?", which is why he is traditionally-depicted in this manner:
Note that there's a pattern of whenever Satan claims a societal victory that the Catholic Church is heavily-persecuted, such as the when the Priests and Carmelite Nuns were marched to the Guillotine during the Freemasonic French Revolution; when 106,000 clergy were killed by Socialist Jews during the Russian Revolution, sometimes their penises cut off and put into the mouths of Nuns before they were raped; the two Freemasonic Mexican Revolutions of 1858 and 1917, the later of which effectively outlawed the Catholic Church; the death of 7000 catholic nuns, monks and priests during the Spanish Revolution of 1936, a persecution that is starting to play out again currently; and the near-total eradication of Christianity in the Middle East through years of Zionist-Evangelical wars to introduce 'Democracy', and the current efforts of US Intelligence to destabilize and seize 96% Catholic Venuzeula.
The Reformed Churches consider us 'Satanic', but the fruits of the Reformation are very rotten: Satanic Intellectual Movements (Germany); Subjugation and Exploitation of Weaker Nations by Empire (England); and Selfishness, Greed and Excessive Comfort (the US).
Jesus tells us to look at the fruits. Do not trust anything that comes from outside of our Faith and claims to be of God.
The historical record also shows King James was a homosexual.
https://edwardtbabinski.us/history/king-james-was-gay.html
You either need the 1682-1610 or 1800's revision of the Douai-Rheims Bible, or one of the Catholic-approved easier to read modern translations.
160 of the Priests who worked on the Douai Rheims translation were murdered by English Reformationists, as well as anyone who harboured them or took mass with them. These men were disembowled and had their entrails cast into a fire before their eyes, before being hung, then cut into pieces which were then parboiled and put on public display as a warning. They are known as the Douai-Martyrs and were beatified in 1929.
The first of these, John Houghton, prayed through his entire disembowelment.
When the executioner hacked his chest open to pull out his heart, his final words being "O Jesus, what wouldst thou do with my heart?", which is why he is traditionally-depicted in this manner:
Note that there's a pattern of whenever Satan claims a societal victory that the Catholic Church is heavily-persecuted, such as the when the Priests and Carmelite Nuns were marched to the Guillotine during the Freemasonic French Revolution; when 106,000 clergy were killed by Socialist Jews during the Russian Revolution, sometimes their penises cut off and put into the mouths of Nuns before they were raped; the two Freemasonic Mexican Revolutions of 1858 and 1917, the later of which effectively outlawed the Catholic Church; the death of 7000 catholic nuns, monks and priests during the Spanish Revolution of 1936, a persecution that is starting to play out again currently; and the near-total eradication of Christianity in the Middle East through years of Zionist-Evangelical wars to introduce 'Democracy', and the current efforts of US Intelligence to destabilize and seize 96% Catholic Venuzeula.
The Reformed Churches consider us 'Satanic', but the fruits of the Reformation are very rotten: Satanic Intellectual Movements (Germany); Subjugation and Exploitation of Weaker Nations by Empire (England); and Selfishness, Greed and Excessive Comfort (the US).
Jesus tells us to look at the fruits. Do not trust anything that comes from outside of our Faith and claims to be of God.
AnonymousBosch said:^ Rob, the King James is not a Catholic Bible, and is missing multiple books that were removed by Martin Luther because they contradicted his personal beliefs, such as anything that discussed the necessity of Works, rather than Faith alone, and offers different translations of words that also suit his agenda. All of this contradicts the final warning at the end of the New Testament about modifying the work to suit one's own personal beliefs.
The historical record also shows King James was a homosexual.
https://edwardtbabinski.us/history/king-james-was-gay.html
You either need the 1682-1610 or 1800's revision of the Douai-Rheims Bible, or one of the Catholic-approved easier to read modern translations.
160 of the Priests who worked on the Douai Rheims translation were murdered by English Reformationists, as well as anyone who harboured them or took mass with them. These men were disembowled and had their entrails cast into a fire before their eyes, before being hung, then cut into pieces which were then parboiled and put on public display as a warning. They are known as the Douai-Martyrs and were beatified in 1929.
The first of these, John Houghton, prayed through his entire disembowelment.
When the executioner hacked his chest open to pull out his heart, his final words being "O Jesus, what wouldst thou do with my heart?", which is why he is traditionally-depicted in this manner:
Note that there's a pattern of whenever Satan claims a societal victory that the Catholic Church is heavily-persecuted, such as the when the Priests and Carmelite Nuns were marched to the Guillotine during the Freemasonic French Revolution; when 106,000 clergy were killed by Socialist Jews during the Russian Revolution, sometimes their penises cut off and put into the mouths of Nuns before they were raped; the two Freemasonic Mexican Revolutions of 1858 and 1917, the later of which effectively outlawed the Catholic Church; the death of 7000 catholic nuns, monks and priests during the Spanish Revolution of 1936, a persecution that is starting to play out again currently; and the near-total eradication of Christianity in the Middle East through years of Zionist-Evangelical wars to introduce 'Democracy', and the current efforts of US Intelligence to destabilize and seize 96% Catholic Venuzeula.
The Reformed Churches consider us 'Satanic', but the fruits of the Reformation are very rotten: Satanic Intellectual Movements (Germany); Subjugation and Exploitation of Weaker Nations by Empire (England); and Selfishness, Greed and Excessive Comfort (the US).
Jesus tells us to look at the fruits. Do not trust anything that comes from outside of our Faith and claims to be of God.
What are the sources for all this I can look into? Other than that link about the homosexuality of James.
Why is the Deuterocanonical books inspired scripture and has the literary quality and prophetic quality that means that should be included?
Right now I only know if the reasons why they should be rejected:
http://www.biblequery.org/Bible/BibleCanon/WhatAboutTheApocrypha.html
As for Luther's attempt it seems Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation was retained in the Canon which I believe was due to the hand of God.
If they were not included then I will have the to agree with you. But they aren't the Deutero-canonical books.
I did a quick search on the Douai Martyrs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douai_Martyrs
Paranoia about Catholic influence in England at the time especially of the Jesuit subversion led to the martyrdom of said priests. Who was perceived as papal legates plotting to overthrow Queen Elizabeth the I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits,_etc._Act_1584
It is like the Huguenot St Bartholomew massacre and other similar massacres which are black blots in history which would make Catholicism as much responsible for such atrocities as Protestantism is for those martyrdoms.
Similar paranoia about treason and sedition led to said events.
https://infogalactic.com/info/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre
Which of reformed theology led to each of such fruits and why? Is Christianity just as responsible for the atrocities of its heretical offshoots?
infowarrior1 said:
I might point out that Thomas Houghton's death had nothing to do with paranoia about Jesuit influence or Catholic influence. The Jesuit Act was passed in 1584, under the reign of Elizabeth I. Houghton was martyred in 1535, almost half a century earlier, under Henry VIII, Elizabeth's father.
His 'crime' was the same as that of St. Thomas More, who was martyred the same year, although for some grotesque reason (possibly class; More was a knight of the realm, as well as being Henry's friend earlier in life) Henry simply beheaded More rather than hanging, drawing and quartering as he did with Houghton. Both Houghton and More had refused to acknowledge Henry VIII rendering himself the supreme head of the Church of England via the Supremacy Act of 1534, disposing of the Pope as head of the Church - specifically, refusing to swear an oath before God that would have had them so accept Henry as a substitute Pope.
And lest there be any doubt, it wasn't that Houghton had done anything earlier to earn Henry's ire. Henry's break with the Catholic Church was preceded by his divorcing Catherine of Aragon and taking up with Anne Boleyn. When two royal agents went to Houghton's monastery to ask whether he supported it or not, Houghton said it wasn't the monastery's business who the king divorced or married, and he asked to be excused from the oath of succession which followed on Henry's divorce and which was meant to legitimise Anne Boleyn's child (Elizabeth) as heir to Henry's throne. Houghton wasn't excused; the oath was extracted from them in the presence of a large band of armed men from the king, though they did swear allegiance 'as far as the law of Christ allows'.
But when Henry outright broke with Rome, he placed Thomas More and Houghton in the same position: they could not accept Henry usurping the Pope's authority as head of the church on Earth, and accordingly refused to swear the oath that followed on and was required by the Supremacy Act.
Again, and understand: Houghton and More did not speak against Henry. All they wished to do was maintain their silence. It was Henry and Henry's government that would not allow them to simply serve to the extent of their consciences and no further. They demanded legalistic compliance with every jot of the law, even if it was against the spirit of the law. One might say that sounds a bit (((familiar))).
When Henry did die, most likely of syphilis, his daughter Mary - Catherine's daughter - succeeded to the throne. She repealed the Supremacy Act, since she was a practising Catholic monarch. When Mary died childless, Elizabeth - Anne Boleyn's daughter - came to the throne in 1558.
Most recent Hollywood images like to portray Elizabeth as "tolerant" of Catholic practice and just saddled with her father's heresy and divided country. Not so; she broke with Rome again almost immediately on succeeding to the throne: her first Parliament passed the Supremacy Act of 1558/9, which was a repeat of the 1534 Act. This was not just Henry's defiance, it was that of Elizabeth as well.
And so the English 'Reformation', or, more accurately, pogrom against Catholic priests and Catholic beliefs, got underway.
And got harsher as the decades went by. That Act of 1584 wasn't just directed against Jesuits. It commanded every Roman Catholic priest in England to leave or swear allegiance to Elizabeth as head of the church (i.e. same oath as Henry VIII demanded) within 40 days of its passing, the penalty for doing neither being prosecution and punishment for high treason. No actual act of working against the State was required, presence in England alone was high treason, generally punishable by death.
Now, Elizabeth's government regularly tried to adopt a fig leaf by saying that they weren't actually punishing anyone for their beliefs, but the same government knew full well that this was a punishment for every Roman Catholic in England, because without a Catholic priest, Mass could not be celebrated, and Catholics could not attend Anglican services. If you find the cancellation of church services worldwide disquieting, try and imagine the sorrow and despair of Catholics roughly five hundred years ago who not only couldn't attend Mass, but were suspect of heresy and prosecution if they did manage to find a priest.
Class was also a factor in who got prosecuted and martyred and who didn't. St. Margaret Clitherow, daughter of a chandler, was literally crushed to death under peine forte et dure while pregnant with her fourth child, for the crime of harbouring Catholic priests. (Although to be fair she was probably a recalcitrant in the eyes of the authorities. She'd converted to Catholicism in her twenties, and regularly was fined for not attending (Anglican) Church, and then flat-out imprisoned for not doing so, in 1577. Because the Anglican Church was just focusing on priests, not actual Catholics.) Anne, Lady Arundell, who harboured John Cornelius, wasn't even charged.
Rob Banks
Pelican
Vladimir Poontang said:
I feel like the answer to this is yes.
Wanting to be rich (rather than just making ends meet) and wanting a beautiful girl for her "hotness" or to show her off and make people envy you (rather than wanting her for her values, devotion to God, and ability to give you children) seem wrong to me.
The same goes for a woman who chooses a man to marry based on his money or status (rather than his values/having a genuine connection with him).
I'm not saying these things (a woman's beauty and a man's money and status) don't matter. They reflect who you are as a person. A man with good values who follows God is more likely to be financially stable and be respected by his community. A woman with good values is likely to have inner beauty and therefore be more attractive.
But I can't get behind the idea of wanting money, status, beautiful women, and material things for their own sake.
Vladimir Poontang said:
I'm not sure there is that big of a difference.
You yourself refer to it as "pride."
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be well off, avoid poverty, and be able to provide. That's not the same as wanting to be rich beyond what you actually need and sacrificing important things in life (e.g. delaying marriage and children) in order to achieve it.
Rob Banks
Pelican
AnonymousBosch said:
Yes, I am aware of this.
My priest from my SSPX church gave me a website to order from, and I ordered a Bible last night. The website is angeluspress.org in case anyone is interested.
Emperor Constantine
Kingfisher
AnonymousBosch said:
This is not correct. The King James Bible includes all of the same books as the Catholic Bible; in addition to 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, and the Prayer of Manasseh which for whatever reason the Roman Catholics have ceased to include in their canon.
Many modern editions exclude the apocrypha/deuterocanon, but complete editions are still available. My Oxford World Classics edition was inexpensive and has them all.
And not that Luther had anything to do with the English Reformation or the KJV, but it's worth noting that in his debate with the Roman Catholic theologian John Eck, Eck criticized Luther for quoting the apocrypha, telling him it wasn't real scripture. He could do that because the Roman Catholics didn't settle their Biblical canon until the Council of Trent.
AnonymousBosch said:
King James didn't translate the King James Bible. And if homosexual infestation of a Christian denomination somehow falsifies their translations, you've got no room to be touting Roman Catholic translations.
Recent RC translations go so far as to take the exact same positions that they used to condemn the KJV for. For example, Luke 1:28 in the NAB.
You've got a lot of good information to share about Catholicism since it's a topic you're familiar with. But to speak about Bible translations or the Protestant Reformation, you've got to learn before you criticize. None of the educated Protestants reading a post like that can react to it any differently than you'd react to a Jack Chick tract.