The Handgun Thread

[Number one bummer]

How cannot .50 bmg rip off arm when shot in it?

The myth was that even if you missed (slightly) with a .50BMG that the air-drag from the bullet was still powerful enough to rip off an arm. Even with a hit I very much doubt it would remove the arm. Skin is quite tensile and while I have no doubt the arm would be functionally dead it would still be "hanging on" so to speak. Besides, there would not be enough meat for the round to deliver it's full energy. It would punch a large hole and create a terrible exit wound but most of the round's energy would continue on with the bullet beyond the initial target.

No source for that, but I've observed ballistics while hunting and no matter how powerful the round, if it doesn't have enough meat to expand in and slow down then the results are not as spectacular as you'd think.

The myth started because the first Call of Duty video game involved a guy getting his arm shot off by a 50BMG. There use to be videos of small animals getting hit by 50BMG and getting torn apart on youtube which made people think the same result would happen to a person. I've shot a groundhog at close range with my Mini-14 and it turned inside out so you can't compare small mammals to humans.

 

[sterling_archer]

What if .50 bmg is shot at torso? It will probably leave huge hole but not "cut" you of course?

 

[J. Spice]

What if .50 bmg is shot at torso? It will probably leave huge hole but not "cut" you of course?

It depends on the round and where it impacts. A FMJ impact to the front will leave a big hole but not cut you in half. A hit from side to side with a Raufoss round? Different story. More than likely there would still be some tissue connecting top and bottom halves but all the important stuff would be severed.

 

[Leonard D Neubache]

I suppose much of it is a question of luck. I've seen a cat shot from front to back with a .223 and that literally turned it inside out. Same sized cat shot from side to side will piss off and die hours later. I've also seen roos hit with a .308 centre mass before bounding away as if nothing happened.

Sometimes bone gets caught. Sometimes just soft tissue. Sometimes the flesh it too soft to force the round to expand. Other times it might find a joint first thing and go to work. It's all a bit of a crap-shoot.

quickedit: I've heard tell that the soldiers involved in the real life events that the movie Blackhawk Down was based on complained that the locals were so skinny that the fmj rounds the soldiers were issued had serious issues with stopping power. Evidently the "skinnys" were too skinny for the rounds to work properly.

 

[J. Spice]

I suppose much of it is a question of luck. I've seen a cat shot from front to back with a .223 and that literally turned it inside out. Same sized cat shot from side to side will piss off and die hours later. I've also seen roos hit with a .308 centre mass before bounding away as if nothing happened.

Sometimes bone gets caught. Sometimes just soft tissue. Sometimes the flesh it too soft to force the round to expand. Other times it might find a joint first thing and go to work. It's all a bit of a crap-shoot.

quickedit: I've heard tell that the soldiers involved in the real life events that the movie Blackhawk Down was based on complained that the locals were so skinny that the fmj rounds the soldiers were issued had serious issues with stopping power. Evidently the "skinnys" were too skinny for the rounds to work properly.

Ballistics is such a weird field of study. So much of it is speculation and inadequate testing due to the inability to confirm hypotheses without someone dying. The only rules that seem to stick around are make sure you hit a vital area and don't stop shooting until the other guy goes down.

 

[sterling_archer]

That is exactly why myths about specific bullet effect to human body actually came to existence. Not many of us would shoot at animals, let alone other humans. Others who were in war are not likely to talk about "ripping humans to shreds" or such.

 

[Leonard D Neubache]

This diagram on various wound channels created by different types of ammunition gives a good example of what we're talking about, and this is of course done under controlled conditions.

Note that the fourth (a 5.56 round) doesn't even start to open up until 20cm of penetration.

 

[SirTimothy]

This diagram on various wound channels created by different types of ammunition gives a good example of what we're talking about, and this is of course done under controlled conditions.

Note that the fourth (a 5.56 round) doesn't even start to open up until 20cm of penetration.

What does "NL" stand for - neck length? Because I noticed the third and fourth rounds are the exact same cartridge at the exact same velocity, but different results.

 

[Leonard D Neubache]

^Generally neck length refers to the ammunition itself but I have heard it referred to in reference to the shape of a wound channel, ie the distance the bullet travels before tumbling or expanding.

 

[Hoser]

All pontification aside, civilians have this to consider: rounds on target = bad guys running away, or otherwise shitting their pants.

Yes, studies show x, y, or z in military combat situations is the best. Such are not the situations into which most of us will fall.

I know a guy who saved his life in an armed robbery, using a 25ACP pistol as his defense (the bad guy didn't make it). This caliber is the least lethal round invented, yet it did the trick at the time.

Carry something that lets you get rounds on target. Nothing else matters.

 

[sterling_archer]

Looks like 7.62 x 39 is winning in penetration.
Interesting note, in Croatia during the war, guns with soviet caliber 5.45 x 39, such as AK-74 were called "Kostolomci", (English: "Bone breakers"), because of the wounds they inflicted.

It says on wikipedia that afghan fighters against soviets called it "poison bullet" because of severe wounds it produces, forcing medics to even amputate limbs.

 

[Hoser]

My understanding of the AK-74 round is that it contains a hollow section just behind its nose cone, so when it hits, the lead inside shifts forward and unbalances the round, causing it to tumble erratically and make a grievous wound.

Such "stinger" rounds are purportedly against the rules of war that NATO espouses. Our 5.56 rounds instead have a section of brass in front of the lead, preventing the shift in weight. Yay us, so humane.

In other news, the 5.56 WOULD tumble nicely on impact (due to its rear-biased weight imbalance) if it were fired from rifles that had less twist in the barrel. However, top brass's insistence on a universal round/rifle requires more twist because the dense air in arctic theaters makes the 5.56 somewhat inaccurate at longer distances unless it has the ballistic stability that more twist (spin) gives it. This increased stability means that the "tumble upon impact" ability of the round is negated.

Ain't empire-building grand? Every country we invade has an effective round that works for it, but we (USA + many NATO stooges) suffer from the politics of war.

7.62 rounds make all these problems go away, but also bring a few drawbacks.

Really, the only solution is to stop warring. Problem is: humans.

 

[SirTimothy]

My understanding of the AK-74 round is that it contains a hollow section just behind its nose cone, so when it hits, the lead inside shifts forward and unbalances the round, causing it to tumble erratically and make a grievous wound.

Such "stinger" rounds are purportedly against the rules of war that NATO espouses. Our 5.56 rounds instead have a section of brass in front of the lead, preventing the shift in weight. Yay us, so humane.

In other news, the 5.56 WOULD tumble nicely on impact (due to its rear-biased weight imbalance) if it were fired from rifles that had less twist in the barrel. However, top brass's insistence on a universal round/rifle requires more twist because the dense air in arctic theaters makes the 5.56 somewhat inaccurate at longer distances unless it has the ballistic stability that more twist (spin) gives it. This increased stability means that the "tumble upon impact" ability of the round is negated.

Ain't empire-building grand? Every country we invade has an effective round that works for it, but we (USA + many NATO stooges) suffer from the politics of war.

7.62 rounds make all these problems go away, but also bring a few drawbacks.

Really, the only solution is to stop warring. Problem is: humans.

The 5.56 isn't designed to tumble like the 5.45, but it is designed to fragment in soft tissue. Fragmentation is less reliable than tumbling, and depends on velocity, but causes more damage when it actually happens.

 

[Leonard D Neubache]

I can't help but think that if I were a squad designated marksman I would have family members send me care packages with standard medium-game copper plated hollow point rounds that I could discreetly pocket on my way out of the base for patrol.

I sincerely doubt that the special forces are going into missions with that shitty UN approved ammo.

 

[Hoser]

Wasn't 6.8 created for SF as a better 5.56?

 

[Leonard D Neubache]

Not sure about that.

The thing with 5.56 is that it's not a bad round if you tailor your ammunition to the task at hand. I have three factory-boxed variants from one manufacturer sitting in my ammunition safe for small, medium and large game.

So just like when I go out to hunt a particular beast, the SFs are going to choose ammunition that's best suited to knocking over the guys they're planning on meeting at the ranges they're likely to meet them wearing the armour (or lack of it) they're likely to be sporting.

The trouble with the 5.56 is when you try to give the same round to a million guys doing a 100,000 different missions with it. Jack of all trades means master of none. And no matter what caliber you choose, you're going to end up with the same problem in this regard. UN treaties, broad stroke policy and administrative bean counting will take all the best intentions and render them irrelevant.

 

[MOVSM]

I've heard tell that the soldiers involved in the real life events that the movie Blackhawk Down was based on complained that the locals were so skinny that the fmj rounds the soldiers were issued had serious issues with stopping power. Evidently the "skinnys" were too skinny for the rounds to work properly.

Those same soldiers also complained of these locals get hit in the head and still keep coming.

The army is currently thinking about a 6.5mm caliber.

 

[MOVSM]

Wasn't 6.8 created for SF as a better 5.56?

SF themselves created the round.

While an improvement over 5.56 in terminal ballistics, it is solely a close quarter round. It's effective range is about the same as 5.56.

With reports from Afghanistan complaining about being outranged, as the locals like to shoot at you from a mountain across the valley, often with soviet machine guns, US and Brits resurrected 7.62 NATO for their designated marksman rifles (DMR).

 

[ms224]

I can't find it at the moment, but I've seen a picture of 5.45 round where one was fired and one was not and both were sectioned.

You can clearly see the tip of the fired round was crooked.

Since this is a handgun thread. I think this is pretty cool

 

[sterling_archer]

Looks interesting, like a normal sized gun but with "sawn off" front