The importance of intelligence in a spouse

Max Roscoe

Kingfisher
One thing I've been struggling with is whether a considerably less intelligent spouse would be a problem. On the one hand, most of IQ is genetic, and I want to help pass on above average intelligence to my offspring. On the other hand, intelligence in a wife or girlfriend is overrated to me. I can't think of any happy friends whose wife's intelligence is really a big factor in their marriage. While at times it would be nice to have certain discussions with a partner who is always around, I don't really look to a spouse for stimulating discussion--that's what friends, clubs, forums like this, and other outlets are for. And it's not like dads run out of things to talk about with their children--who are presumably far less intelligent.

While no one wants a dumb kid, high intelligence can be a curse to some degree, at least socially. I'm thinking of the scene in Idiocracy where the smart couple keeps thinking of reasons not to procreate, and have all sorts of worries and concerns while the dumb Cletus is knocking up girls left and right.. Higher IQ people tend to worry about "why should I bring a kid into this weird globohomo society" while less intelligent ones just go about having a family and don't spend much time thinking about it. I have suffered some strong subconscious social effects of this Coronavirus lockdown (sleep and minor medical problems) and higher intelligence people are more bothered by this--the sheep just do what they are told and wearing a mask is no different than clocking in at 9AM or paying your taxes.

I've asked a coworker about this question specifically and it's clear it never bothered him--he has a stay at home wife and just had his third kid. They home school and moved out in the country away from some of the problems, but he's not spending any free time posting to message boards about the state of the world--he's playing with his kids or tinkering with cars.

I have noticed for a long time an inverse relationship between intelligence and kindness & innocence. I would have zero interest in dating a Harvard lawyer. Last year I dated a foreign girl from a traditional household who was the least intelligent girl I've dated. She had basically no intellectual curiosity and told me "I hate reading" which really bothered me at the time. It was the one thing that kept me from taking the relationship more seriously. I'm definitely going to read a lot to my kids, but I probably could have found something she enjoyed reading and nurtured that, instead of just accepting her ignorant judgment that she hated books. She was a nurse and had probably a level of understanding higher than that of most women of past times.

Any older guys especially have any input on how much you would value intelligence in a wife? Obviously I would be scared to go sub-100 IQ but beyond that would it hold you back?
 

Roosh

Cardinal
What if you select an intelligent wife, but a first pregnancy turns out to be a child with Down's syndrome? Or maybe she turns out to be infertile? Then what do you do? Such a plan can easily go wrong.

And what does having an intelligent child accomplish? So he/she can receive material rewards with high-paying jobs? To me, choosing a woman of the faith is more important, because my child may be dumb, but his salvation won't be risked.
 
Intelligence is an important thing to consider, but it is definitely not right to think "the more intelligence the better". It is easier to trigger a woman's hypergamy, and make her attracted to you if you are more intelligent than her. An intelligent woman is high quality in a sense, but if she is smarter than you, she is probably not for you. Leave that to a smarter man. The ideal wife is a little bit less intelligent than the man.
 

KingDavid

Sparrow
One thing I've been struggling with is whether a considerably less intelligent spouse would be a problem. On the one hand, most of IQ is genetic, and I want to help pass on above average intelligence to my offspring. On the other hand, intelligence in a wife or girlfriend is overrated to me. I can't think of any happy friends whose wife's intelligence is really a big factor in their marriage. While at times it would be nice to have certain discussions with a partner who is always around, I don't really look to a spouse for stimulating discussion--that's what friends, clubs, forums like this, and other outlets are for. And it's not like dads run out of things to talk about with their children--who are presumably far less intelligent.

While no one wants a dumb kid, high intelligence can be a curse to some degree, at least socially. I'm thinking of the scene in Idiocracy where the smart couple keeps thinking of reasons not to procreate, and have all sorts of worries and concerns while the dumb Cletus is knocking up girls left and right.. Higher IQ people tend to worry about "why should I bring a kid into this weird globohomo society" while less intelligent ones just go about having a family and don't spend much time thinking about it. I have suffered some strong subconscious social effects of this Coronavirus lockdown (sleep and minor medical problems) and higher intelligence people are more bothered by this--the sheep just do what they are told and wearing a mask is no different than clocking in at 9AM or paying your taxes.

I've asked a coworker about this question specifically and it's clear it never bothered him--he has a stay at home wife and just had his third kid. They home school and moved out in the country away from some of the problems, but he's not spending any free time posting to message boards about the state of the world--he's playing with his kids or tinkering with cars.

I have noticed for a long time an inverse relationship between intelligence and kindness & innocence. I would have zero interest in dating a Harvard lawyer. Last year I dated a foreign girl from a traditional household who was the least intelligent girl I've dated. She had basically no intellectual curiosity and told me "I hate reading" which really bothered me at the time. It was the one thing that kept me from taking the relationship more seriously. I'm definitely going to read a lot to my kids, but I probably could have found something she enjoyed reading and nurtured that, instead of just accepting her ignorant judgment that she hated books. She was a nurse and had probably a level of understanding higher than that of most women of past times.

Any older guys especially have any input on how much you would value intelligence in a wife? Obviously I would be scared to go sub-100 IQ but beyond that would it hold you back?
In your realm of intelligence, in your realm of attractiveness etc.

The husband and wife become one flesh.
 

Tiger Man

Woodpecker
The negative female qualities that we all decry on this forum exist in the smart and stupid alike. The difference is that, often, the "smart" ones (read that as the college-educated ones) can use their "knowledge" and "education" to justify pretty much any action. On the other side, the women that are not so highly educated may actually reflect on having done something wrong. They may actually "get it" in a way that an overly-intelligent or educated woman cannot. I've stated this before, but some of the best "wife material" women I have met have been homeschooled, self-taught, or engaged in some type of trade-like training (ex: for bookkeeping). You are unlikely to find many women who consider themselves "highly intelligent" in these categories. But, to drive it home... if a woman with a 120 IQ gets multiple degrees in something like communications or gender studies, how smart can she be?
 
I think having a spouse you get along with -and this usually means someone around your intelligence level- will be better for your kids than the potential genetic advantage they'd get from having a super smart parent. So I personally look for compatibility rather than intelligence. I know that the way I feel talking to a retard is the way a genius feels talking to me, and it seems like marriage has enough potential pitfalls without choosing someone who has a significantly different level of intelligence.

I think Aaron Clarey wrote the cutoff for compatibility is usually around 15 IQ points, but if you find someone compatible the IQ thing should work itself out without either party needing to take a test.
 

gework

Ostrich
Gold Member
In the good old days people didn't have to worry about this. Intelligence is class-based. It's most obvious in India, where their 4,000 years of eugenics have created a class of priests and scholars who have about at 30 IQ point gap with the toilet cleaner class. That will be a problem for them as they go forward, babi.

In the good old days it was virtually unheard of for a marriage to occur over more than one class delineation. For example a squire (large untitled landowner) might marry the daughter of a gentleman (small untitled landowner). But they wouldn't marry the daughter of a farmer. With that said there is probably little difference between the intelligence of those of a farmer and squirely background.

Over the last two generations there have been a lot of people who got out of the working class and into the middle class. But virtually all of those come from the background of middle class people who became working class in the overpopulation of the 19th century.

My IQ is high and was very obviously inherited and runs strongly on my mother's mother's side, where on average the family is in the top 1%. On my father's side it's more like stable middle-class, top 25%. There are a lot of qualities I would like in a woman. I know I won't get all. Intelligence is not that high on the list. Most of the girls I've known have been 110+ and they are the only girls I'm likely to be able to develop something with. Where they fall above that isn't that important. If I can reproduce with an 115 IQ women the kids will still be in the top couple of percent.

I don't think IQ above 115 makes that much difference in potential earnings. Certainly 125. I think once you have that IQ it becomes more important to be clear thinking, have experience, an understanding of economics, psychology, history. If you have a 125 IQ you are smart enough to be able to sort out those other things which most people don't. You can always hire brains to do more complex work.
 

Max Roscoe

Kingfisher
I think Aaron Clarey wrote the cutoff for compatibility is usually around 15 IQ points, but if you find someone compatible the IQ thing should work itself out without either party needing to take a test.
That makes some sense but I don't think two high-IQ couples get along very well. It's like two autists living together... they cannot connect no matter how smart they are.

And what does having an intelligent child accomplish? So he/she can receive material rewards with high-paying jobs? To me, choosing a woman of the faith is more important, because my child may be dumb, but his salvation won't be risked
The material rewards are indeed unimportant. A good corollary is physical appearance. While I value the spiritual above physical appearance, it's usually looks that first make me "see" someone. But I know I would be far happier, with a loving, plain looking Godly wife and unhappy with a beautiful but empty one. Surely the same is true with smarts.

I had dinner at an old church friend's house last night, and he had an overweight couple over. I played some backyard sports with their kids, and they were terrible, as they just don't have good genetics for sports. But they tried. In the past, I looked down on these kinds of people, and yes, they do need to exercise more, and I chuckled to myself when they got excited when dessert was served.

But I had good conversations with the kids, and none of them were looking at their screens. And as I was getting ready to leave, I saw the overweight couple sitting next to each other, holding hands... it made an impression and is not something I see often with couples in their 50s.
 

Laner

Hummingbird
Gold Member
I went through this to some degree when I was choosing who to settle down with. I ended up choosing a woman who had a higher happy quotient than the others. Smart enough to know that university would mean debt and a useless degree (not smart enough for STEM) so instead chose a high demand vocation.

- Very smart women over analyze.
- Very smart women have a hard time being the brunt of a joke.
- Do not choose a dumb woman.
- Choose a woman who can be happy doing mundane tasks. Motherhood is often mundane; Can you play with a 4yo boy for hours and hours? Not many men can, but many women are happy to do it.
- Smart women have a hard time falling asleep.
- Smart women are more likely to challenge silly things.
- Lower intelligence, again not dumb, are happier to be lead and are more grateful for comfort.
- Lower intelligence women are often great workers. Diligent. Task oriented. Lists. Instructions.

Passing the genes on is something to consider, but the most important thing in raising a kid is that they are happy, curious, loved and disciplined.
 

KingDavid

Sparrow
Two Christians can have a child who rejects the faith and rebels in a drastic way - it has happened before - so marrying solely for what you wish for your children is ill advised. The same goes for intelligence or any other trait.

It's really all in God's hands, so you can only choose a woman that you can spend time with. Personally I like deep conversations, so I could never be with a woman that isn't intelligent. Goodness, sensitivity, and awareness are other important factors.

If you connect intuitively, and ultimately spiritually, then you really can't ask for much more. If you feel complete and in Christ's love, then all you can ask for is a woman that is like you but in the feminine.

This union of masculine and feminine creates the one flesh that Christ spoke of; but how can you be one flesh with someone you have nothing in common with? The former two are opposites and complete each other, but then all else must be similar for there to be congruence.
 
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Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
+1 for everything Laner said.

If you could find (accurate, non politicized) male/female IQ bell curves then doubtless your genetically comparable woman would be 5 points or so behind you regardless. This is immensely important because as Laner alludes to, women need to be led so that natural male advantage in IQ is there for a reason. Meanwhile a wife who is your intellectual equal is in reality breeding down on that trait. Something she's not going to be inherently happy about, even if she doesn't fully understand why.

This is perhaps the origin of the class based societies gework was talking about. In any case I wouldn't worry about breeding smart, and most men will not find remarkably dim women attractive in the long term anyway so you probably wont have to worry about that either. Ideally that "equal but not" 5 point differential will allow her to understand your conversation points while still being just far enough behind you that she's always following.
 
Idiocracy. Such a wonderful film (a few minor flaws. The Rita character could be eliminated and nobody would notice).

Imagine a sort of rat race/maze where at the end of the IQ test, the "cheese" is to graduate with a degree that's indoctrinated you to become a self-hating, sniveling leftist. Sort of like a gerbil feeder filled with powder cocaine.

The feminist movement from the beginning argued that smart women didn't like having kids. They considered becoming a housewife worse than death and dreamed of abortion and remaining single as a high powered career women to be a utopia but again, interesting that such "smart" women would assume that ALL women should want this (or are up to it.) Instead, most wind up graduating heavily in debt, with lowered wages due to immigration/competition, and a shortage of betas ready to provide a white picket fence to squeeze out kids.

Hmm, side observation/segway into another thread regarding OnlyFans: Why are some women cleaning up on this? Well, probably for the same reason some strippers made 6 figures. There is a market for it, but not enough for a strip club on every street corner. That HAS to bubble out, eventually since simps cannot make unlimited money. Porn peaked, FYI. In the 80's, it was possible for a mediocre porn star to bank 7 figures in today's money. I saw a documentary and the average porn star perhaps clears about the same as an entry level powerpoint project manager.

So anyways, back to the topic at hand: Feminism was predicated on the notion that smart women didn't LIKE having kids. But yet at the same time, most smart women I knew still had this feminine notion of wanting men to "take care of them." Although I saw a few examples of this in the media with much ballyhoo, smart women rarely would want to marry a good looking "chad" and pay for him to stay at home with the kids while she gets her testosterone brain rush at work. They may even outscore the average man in college and perhaps even be brilliant businesswomen, but they lack the ability to initiate relationships.

So if you marry a smart woman, particularly in this day and age, be prepared to do at least 1/2 of child rearing (if not more), or to be able to afford a nanny or have grandparents help out. Provided she's not a feminist or leftist, that's not such a terrible compromise.
 

monsquid

Kingfisher
It's a double edged sword. Mothers have a massive effect on child development. In that regard you want the smartest woman possible but then again intelligence isn't purely based on academic and career capability. Emotional intelligence is probably the most important factor for a wife. You want someone that is compassionate but knows when to push back for the right decision in a family. Husbands may not always understand what's best for the family because he is constantly engaged with the external world. A strong and stable woman keeps her husband focused and her children properly educated and loved. Not an easy task.

I think women who are smart and have embraced feminism is the most dangerous bargain. If they have a full time career they are fulfilling a masculine role in their work life. Too much masculine energy in a family and things will get inevitably lead to friction and conflict.
 
Testing your potential wife for IQ so your children can have a genetic advantage is sperging out. Genetics are capricious anyway. But you don't want a big child as a wife. You want a sensible wife. Someone who understands you, someone mature you can discuss everyday problems with and enjoy the big and little things in life. You want a wife who's financially sensible and is not addicted to the consummerist hamster wheel. You want someone emotionally mature so she doesn't make you crazy wiht her childish antics and her shit tests. And that's not about a figure. You only get to know a person by getting to know a person. Having an idiot for a wife might arouse trad fantasies of submission, but it makes for a very lonely marriage. And if you think she needs to be an idiot in order to be feminine and submissive to you then you don't have a very high concept of yourself. I agree that a gifted wife would probably complicate things, but there's a middle ground. Intelligence doesn't mean purple hair and nose ring, or power suit. There is a certain kind of sensible, feminine, nurturing, intelligence.
 
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monsquid

Kingfisher
Testing your potential wife for IQ so your children can have a genetic advantage is sperging out. Genetics are capricious anyway. But you don't want a big child as a wife. You want a sensible wife. Someone who understands you, someone mature you can discuss everyday problems with and enjoy the big annd little things in life. And that's not about a figure. You only get to know a person by getting to know a person. You want someone emotionally mature so she doesn't make you crazy wiht her childish antics and her shit tests. Having an idiot for a wife might arouse trad fantasies of submission, but it makes for a very lonely marriage. And if you think she needs to be an idiot in order to be feminine and submissive to you then you don't have a very high concept of yourself. I agree that a gifted wife would probably complicate things, but there's a middle ground. Intelligence doesn't mean purple hair and nose ring, or power suit. There is a certain kind of feminine nurturing intelligence.
Excellent point. How do we identify a woman who is closer to that middle ground? I'm often quick to judge. I think understanding a woman's character takes time. Same goes for men. It seems like you have to play the shallow games in order to get a chance to broach the real person inside people nowadays.
 

Laner

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Excellent point. How do we identify a woman who is closer to that middle ground? I'm often quick to judge. I think understanding a woman's character takes time. Same goes for men. It seems like you have to play the shallow games in order to get a chance to broach the real person inside people nowadays.
Traits of 'middle ground' or a more emotionally stable woman:

- Doesn't get drunk
- Nervous about parties with lots of drugs
- Comfortable alone
- Happy to have a clean home and content with the work it takes to keep it tidy
- No flings, one night stands, revenge sex, etc
- Wardrobe is mostly a type of clothing, not latest trend. Modest fashion.
- A 'neutral face'. A pleasant resting face. It shows the woman does not have a racing mind.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
Two Christians can have a child who rejects the faith and rebels in a drastic way - it has happened before - so marrying solely for what you wish for your children is ill advised. The same goes for intelligence or any other trait.

It's really all in God's hands, so you can only choose a woman that you can spend time with. Personally I like deep conversations, so I could never be with a woman that isn't intelligent. Goodness, sensitivity, and awareness are other important factors.

If you connect intuitively, and ultimately spiritually, then you really can't ask for much more. If you feel complete and in Christ's love, then all you can ask for is a woman that is like you but in the feminine.

This union of masculine and feminine creates the one flesh that Christ spoke of; but how can you be one flesh with someone you have nothing in common with? The former two are opposites and complete each other, but then all else must be similar for there to be congruence.
I wish I could give this post more likes (especially the bolded part).

Too many men on here seem to believe you need to screen potential wives as if they were job applicants.

That's not how it works.
 

Mithras

Newbie
Birth is mostly a lottery, so I wouldn't stress too much about this point. You can maximalize your chances, but in the end, you either take that risk or not. There is a decent probability that high IQ parents will also have high IQ children, but IQ alone is just a mechanical, discursive thought process, not intelligence per se. It's related to intelligence, but so are many other factors (quality of character, creativity, talents, memory, general nobility...). I use the term intelligence in its classical, holistic meaning, not in its modern, empiristic reduction. Low IQ and good intention is just partial intelligence, but high IQ and bad intention is not intelligence at all.

What I see as a less abstract and more concrete problem is the ability do share common values with your wife. Women who are naturally housewives are reliable and honorable, but unfortunately, their practical orientation makes discussions with them really unpleasant. Of course, I'm talking subjectively now, having a deep discussion with wife is important only to a certain kind of man. For example, I absolutely hate little talk, practical, petty discussions annoy me and make me tired. I have a big problem finding the motivation to spend time with a woman who is not intellectually curious. And by that, I don't mean talking about masculine topics such as politics, but simply seeing the world from a wider, more abstract perspective and finding connectedness there. Although it lowers my chances to find a good wife, considering how damaged are more intellectual and educated women today, it's simply the fact. I'm fine with that because I know who I am and what my priorities are.
 
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