The Inevitability of Moral Breakdown in Democracies Where All Can Vote

paninaro

Kingfisher
Men can enact change in this life through their actions. You see the results of decisions you and others make everyday. I propose choosing to act. This life may not matter but there's no reason it needs to be an unpleasant experience. Why not choose to enact positive change or at least create communities of similar faiths/beliefs/morals that try to act as strength against the persecution and oppression that exists today?
The Amish do this. They pretty much just run their own community and the government rarely interferes . They run their own schools, churches, and farm. They are exempted from paying into social security, and they don't even need to have a photo on their state-issued ID card. While they do have a right to vote, most of them don't do that either.
 

Garuda

Woodpecker
The ancient Greeks would call the current political climate in modern America an Ochlocracy. It is mob rule characterized by the intimidation of legitimate authorities. It's one of three forms of government they considered evil. The other two were tyranny and oligarchy. They distinguished "good" and "bad" according to whether the government form would act in the interest of the whole community ("good") or in the exclusive interests of a group or individual at the expense of justice ("bad").

The founding fathers of America knew about these three evils since an understanding of the Greco-Roman classics as well as basic Greek and Latin grammar were required to enter college in colonial times.


To lay it out in more clearly, the admission criteria for Columbia in 1786 read:
No candidate shall be admitted into the College, after the second Tuesday in April, 1786, unless he shall be able to render into English Caesar's Commentaries of the Gallic War; the four Orations of Cicero against Catiline; the four first books of Virgil's Eneid; and the Gospels from the Greek; and to explain the government and connection of the words, and to turn English into grammatical Latin, and shall understand the four first rules of Arithmetic, with the rule of three.1
Yale, meanwhile, required an applicant to be fluent in Tully, Virgil, Latin Grammar, Prosody, and Composition, Greek Testament, and the Rules of Vulgar Arithmetic. Princeton wanted all of the above plus Sallust and Caesar.
That's why they limited voting to landowners. They would probably have never imagined that in just over a century or so everyone would receive the right to vote and begin America's self destruction.

Here are several articles on the subject.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050309015356/http://www.grecoreport.com/america's_debt_to_greece_and_Christianity.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/2007053....com/the_founding_fathers_&_the_classics1.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/2006110...om/western_civilization_and_christianity1.htm
 

pitbullowner

Pelican
Yeah the problem with the alt right is they are doing a great job breaking down layers of corruption and exposing the west as a pure oligarchy, but don't have a valid plan for building a new system.

I'd suggest fascism with enforced Christian roots.
Now....to get people to go along with that, it's an almost insurmountable PR mountain to get over
 

Zeknichov

Pigeon
I'd suggest fascism with enforced Christian roots.
Now....to get people to go along with that, it's an almost insurmountable PR mountain to get over
What's wrong with simply low government (like exceptionally lower than now), capitalism (like exceptionally more capitalism than the watered down socialist system we're running in western countries) and Christian roots?
 

godfather dust

Ostrich
Gold Member
What's wrong with simply low government (like exceptionally lower than now), capitalism (like exceptionally more capitalism than the watered down socialist system we're running in western countries) and Christian roots?
Authoritarian systems (namely monarchy) have a much better track record against degeneracy than anything where liberty is a core value
 

pitbullowner

Pelican
What's wrong with simply low government (like exceptionally lower than now), capitalism (like exceptionally more capitalism than the watered down socialist system we're running in western countries) and Christian roots?

We haven't had true free market capitalism since....1870s....1880s? (In the United States that is.)


Free market Capitalism can work in an intelligent and well educated multicultural society... but society is currently trying to cater to the lowest common denominator, so that's an exhausted option that doesn't work.

So because of that the striving for American excellence is almost completely gone because of 3+ generations being indoctrinated by the (((dept. of public education)))


Todays Capitalism(pseudo capitalist-corporatism with a marxist overtone to be honest) in its current form has failed us extremely well for the subversives with the Frankfurt school of thought...thus rewarding the ultra rich with governments reaping of the fat of the land.
I'm for an ultra conservative right wing Socialist state that has a monarchy/fascist system after we kick out the k!ke bankers and balkanize under said system
 

Zeknichov

Pigeon
We haven't had true free market capitalism since....1870s....1880s? (In the United States that is.)


Free market Capitalism can work in an intelligent and well educated multicultural society... but society is currently trying to cater to the lowest common denominator, so that's an exhausted option that doesn't work.

So because of that the striving for American excellence is almost completely gone because of 3+ generations being indoctrinated by the (((dept. of public education)))


Todays Capitalism(pseudo capitalist-corporatism with a marxist overtone to be honest) in its current form has failed us extremely well for the subversives with the Frankfurt school of thought...thus rewarding the ultra rich with governments reaping of the fat of the land.
I'm for an ultra conservative right wing Socialist state that has a monarchy/fascist system after we kick out the k!ke bankers and balkanize under said system
If you restricted voting to my suggestion of men, 30yo and must pay net positive taxes to the government, you could also put in a minimum land value to own restriction, that would solve the issue of "intelligent and well education" because it would only be this group that mostly decides governance of the state.
 
If you restricted voting to my suggestion of men, 30yo and must pay net positive taxes to the government, you could also put in a minimum land value to own restriction, that would solve the issue of "intelligent and well education" because it would only be this group that mostly decides governance of the state.
Maybe, but it's also pure fantasy and men should deal in reality rather than hopes and dreams. Once people get the "right" to vote, they will never vote themselves out of that vote or out of any other form of power they've acquired. There is no short-term solution to our present dilemma. The best political strategy for those who can think is to network (only with a small number of people who you've spent considerable time and energy discerning as trustworthy) and build resources. Further, make a serious study of Christianity and its history as you grow in Christ and in virtue. There will be a time, 15 or 20 years from now, where all this will pay off. But any notion that we can "reform" the current system is simply a waste of energy. This has to burn itself out first. And it will.
 
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Enigma

Hummingbird
Gold Member
I obviously posted my topic to have a discussion because I'm by no means a prophet.

I think it comes down to objective of belief. I've met a number of Christians that believe in simply aligning your life with God and then doing nothing further. Embracing one's persecution by the rest of the world is the pinnacle of one's faith. These people seek to influence nothing in the world at large because God is in control and nothing they do will matter. I've heard similar accounts by stoics as well.

Is this the right answer? Is there no taste to the salt of this earth that we men represent? Men can enact change in this life through their actions. You see the results of decisions you and others make everyday. I propose choosing to act. This life may not matter but there's no reason it needs to be an unpleasant experience. Why not choose to enact positive change or at least create communities of similar faiths/beliefs/morals that try to act as strength against the persecution and oppression that exists today?

Everyone thinks their religion is superior. I'm no good on arguing about religious superiority but it appears to be from the study I've done that every religion shares fairly common moral structures in actuality anyway.
First you said not everyone should vote, now you believe that everyone should seek to "enact change".

It's a fundamental contradiction.

And who said "change" is a good thing? Why would a healthy, strong, flourishing society based on objective, eternal Christian truths seek to change?

It's just progressivism by another name. And well, the "radical left" progressives think their position is superior, so it appears both the modern left and modern right share the same revolutionary ideology anyway.

A Christian living in a traditional, hierarchical Christian society only needs to fulfill his role in the hierarchy, which includes doing his job, taking care of his family, and going to church. Ruling the country is what rulers, namely the king and his administration, are for.

In a society like this, people running around advocating for "change" are rightly seen as subversives.
 

STG

Robin
The ancient Greeks would call the current political climate in modern America an Ochlocracy. It is mob rule characterized by the intimidation of legitimate authorities. It's one of three forms of government they considered evil. The other two were tyranny and oligarchy. They distinguished "good" and "bad" according to whether the government form would act in the interest of the whole community ("good") or in the exclusive interests of a group or individual at the expense of justice ("bad").

The founding fathers of America knew about these three evils since an understanding of the Greco-Roman classics as well as basic Greek and Latin grammar were required to enter college in colonial times.




That's why they limited voting to landowners. They would probably have never imagined that in just over a century or so everyone would receive the right to vote and begin America's self destruction.

Here are several articles on the subject.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050309015356/http://www.grecoreport.com/america's_debt_to_greece_and_Christianity.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/2007053....com/the_founding_fathers_&_the_classics1.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/2006110...om/western_civilization_and_christianity1.htm
Wow.... we went from that to allowing third worlders who couldn't cut it academically but are "talented" at running around and throwing balls at each other into these institutions!

We truly are savages living in the ruins of a superior civilization.
 

homersheineken

Woodpecker
"Democracy" only works when it's restricted to the most responsible, farthest-thinking people in a society. That's why the Founders of the United States restricted it to land-owning men: these guys were thinking in the long term and weren't going to vote for foolish, short-sighted interests. Unfortunately, the USA in its current state is far beyond recovery, at this point a monarchy would be a drastic improvement.
Considering the current political climate that would be Trump and his son. For all his faults and things I disagree with him on, is that better than the alternative? It seems we're heading for tyranny 1 way or another with the suspension of the constitution and basic rights; the advancement of Clown World ideals, etc. If that's going to continue, is this a viable alternative to full on civil war?

And to think beyond the next couple of years, China is drooling at the prospect of civil war, or at least the continued dichotomy splintering the US populace. What is the ideal solution here?
 

Zeknichov

Pigeon
Considering the current political climate that would be Trump and his son. For all his faults and things I disagree with him on, is that better than the alternative? It seems we're heading for tyranny 1 way or another with the suspension of the constitution and basic rights; the advancement of Clown World ideals, etc. If that's going to continue, is this a viable alternative to full on civil war?

And to think beyond the next couple of years, China is drooling at the prospect of civil war, or at least the continued dichotomy splintering the US populace. What is the ideal solution here?
Trump is a good leader for the USA. Don't listen to what the media is telling you and actually see how he's been governing, which has been good. He is no Tyrant, he is just fighting against the establishment which can make him appear tyrannical but in reality, he's just trying to change course for the USA toward his vision as a leader should and is thus meeting with a lot of resistance from the establishment, especially those that subscribe to the globalist agenda, for this direction change.

No one can say for certain whether a Trump dictatorship would be better than a civil war. Either or would be better than the continual decline of the USA into the globalist agenda.
 

Easy_C

Crow
I'd suggest fascism with enforced Christian roots.
Now....to get people to go along with that, it's an almost insurmountable PR mountain to get over
A lot of the horrors associated with fascism can be prevented by tying the constitution of that system to canon law and the catechism and providing an external check so that actions which violate it can be challenged.

Except it’s not fascism anymore at that point. I do think putting it right in the charter that the government may not implement any law which contravenes the catechism would be invaluable. They may not enforce active requirements, but also may not allow anything prohibited by Catholic dogma. This means that abortion is out, pornography is out, divorce is out, and contraceptives are out although they may not compel you to attend church weekly.

My intent would be to create an environment that is a “safe haven” for Catholicism but allows others to participate and visit while harshly punishing subversive behaviors.
 

pitbullowner

Pelican
This has to burn itself out first. And it will.
I hope you're right. My friend keeps telling me to read "The next 100 years" or some book like that... i said to him I can't do it because of the Jewish name...he called me a racist POS, but he knows my view on jews :squintlol:... anyhow, is this in line with a glimmer of hope you're saying to be seen, or moreso establishing yourself in a way that puts you in a position that God will bless when you need a "tribe" of people you're loyal to ?

20200812_152417.png
 

paninaro

Kingfisher
Trump is a good leader for the USA. Don't listen to what the media is telling you and actually see how he's been governing, which has been good. He is no Tyrant, he is just fighting against the establishment which can make him appear tyrannical but in reality, he's just trying to change course for the USA toward his vision as a leader should and is thus meeting with a lot of resistance from the establishment, especially those that subscribe to the globalist agenda, for this direction change.
How specifically has Trump fought against the establishment? Which laws or executive orders did this?
 

godfather dust

Ostrich
Gold Member
How specifically has Trump fought against the establishment? Which laws or executive orders did this?
A lot of people including myself saw the MAGA campaign promises which may have given us 20-30 years if fulfilled, and ignored the fact that someone with the well documented character flaws Trump has had since the 80s couldn't possibly fulfill them.
 

pitbullowner

Pelican
A lot of people including myself saw the MAGA campaign promises which may have given us 20-30 years if fulfilled, and ignored the fact that someone with the well documented character flaws Trump has had since the 80s couldn't possibly fulfill them.
This robust/aggressive Trump isn't his natural state is he ? From what I've heard Donald Trump was never this aggressive normally speaking he kind of had to be "prepped" for this character that he portrays on media... I've read that he was more soft spoken and introspective, but still calculated and ruthless
 

Elipe

Woodpecker
I hope you're right. My friend keeps telling me to read "The next 100 years" or some book like that... i said to him I can't do it because of the Jewish name...he called me a racist POS, but he knows my view on jews :squintlol:... anyhow, is this in line with a glimmer of hope you're saying to be seen, or moreso establishing yourself in a way that puts you in a position that God will bless when you need a "tribe" of people you're loyal to ?

View attachment 24504
That title is full of arrogance.
 
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