The inexorable decline of American cities

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Mexicans build massive structures in Mexico, Indians build them in India and Chinese build them in China.

Now would you trust a bunch of Indians and Chinese and Mexicans with a proven track record in their home nations to build you a school for your lily white kids?

Fuck no. Because they don't care about your people and they know that when the local gravy train ends that they're going to be able to zip off back to their homeland with profits in hand and laugh all the way.

That's why Manuel and Bhanesh are only slapping in every third bolt or spot welding instead of beading the whole seam. Because "fuck these people, they're not my people."

Skin In The Game (SITG)

also explains why people without kids make worse decisions
 
VNvet said:
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Nah. They don't care about their own people either.

I've seen Cambodians in Cambodia using bamboo to build a cinder block wall on a government building. And judging by the amount of buildings I see collapsing in the third world, I don't think they really care about anyone other than themselves.

True - low-trust societies mean that you have to control everything diligently. China for example is two-tiered. You have highly efficient and well-made construction that is ordered by the Politbuero and corporations for themselves. Then you have a ton of retail construction and local projects which are abysmal and fall apart within 5 years after construction as corners are cut everywhere.

3rd world does not mean that there are no good projects done, but the solid ones are concentrated among the elite - everyone else better hire 20 24h detectives and private inspectors to see a project done well. Even the European communist countries had a certain work-ethic despite massive material shortfalls. Engineers worked their asses of to create buildings that still stand to this day even if the globhoomos claimed in the 1990s that it would all collapse.
 

rpg

Ostrich
An0dyne said:
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Mexicans build massive structures in Mexico, Indians build them in India and Chinese build them in China.

Now would you trust a bunch of Indians and Chinese and Mexicans with a proven track record in their home nations to build you a school for your lily white kids?

Fuck no. Because they don't care about your people and they know that when the local gravy train ends that they're going to be able to zip off back to their homeland with profits in hand and laugh all the way.

That's why Manuel and Bhanesh are only slapping in every third bolt or spot welding instead of beading the whole seam. Because "fuck these people, they're not my people."

Ain't no Mexicans, Indians, or Chinese people "zipping back" to Mexico, India, or China. And I'd trust their work ethic any day of the week over the white trailer trash of the U.S.
The trailer trash wont come to work because they are on meth and heroin.
 

Bienvenuto

Pelican
Gold Member
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Mexicans build massive structures in Mexico, Indians build them in India and Chinese build them in China.

Now would you trust a bunch of Indians and Chinese and Mexicans with a proven track record in their home nations to build you a school for your lily white kids?

Fuck no. Because they don't care about your people and they know that when the local gravy train ends that they're going to be able to zip off back to their homeland with profits in hand and laugh all the way.

That's why Manuel and Bhanesh are only slapping in every third bolt or spot welding instead of beading the whole seam. Because "fuck these people, they're not my people."

I worked one of the bars at Epsom race course in outer London.
Really good crowd of customers in there.
As is usual for event staff nearly all my colleagues were migrants.
At the very end when we were emptying out an old lady came over and said "thank you so much, have a nice evening."
The Brazilian next to me waited until she got out of ear shot and said "Yeah, yeah, fuck you.. fuck that"
I turned to him and said "why?"
"what?"
just kept asking.. "why?" "what was wrong with what she said?" "she's a nice lady, why do you dislike her?" "what don't you like about these people?"
Just got surliness and "fuck you" etc.

I worked on some houses on the South Coast NSW and one day we were putting up ceilings, the owner comes in and says "guys I could get a crew of Vietnamese in here 20 strong, putting up ceilings in half the time and for half the money I pay you 3"

Straight away the answers come back: "well fucking hire them then" "yeah but how good is the work?" "those ceilings are gonna fall down mate." "if you don't want us we can always fuck off.."

One of the guys from that job went up to work on a public housing project in Western Sydney.
No local Australian brick layers.. only Afghans.
Turned out for all the wheeling and dealing involved in getting these cheap Afghans NOT ONE of them could even lay a brick.
The entire project ground to a halt but for some reason the Afghans stayed on the job bleating and moaning about life was so hard back home and getting the sympathy of the other tradies who ended up sharing their smokes and food with them and their condolences whilst other people had to set about what on-site jobs they could in order to make up for their total lack of skills.
There were bricklayers lining up to replace them but NO, not allowed.
Grid-lock.
Shit went on for weeks.

Turns out that what business owners and local govt want and what actually makes for decent employee/customer relations and solid buildings are two entirely different things.

Who knew?
 
aeroektar said:
TooFineAPoint said:
Leonard D Neubache said:
TooFineAPoint said:
I don't get the fairytale around "Mom & Pop Shops".

Those shops suck ass, and are the worst of both worlds: overpriced, understocked, and lacking in both convenience and expertise.

I remember having to deal with Mom & Pop Shops for most of my life, and it was nearly always terrible. I am glad they are going under. International corporations and boutiques are the better options, in my opinion. You have convenience and low price (due to economies of scale and advanced logistics) in the chain corps, and you have quality and expertise in the boutiques.

When I travel to America (minimum once per year for more than a week), I am always pleased with both. Especially compared to Canada and Europe.

I think it depends. My trouble is that when I go to big-box stores they're always staffed entirely by minimum wage, minimum age millennials who couldn't find their ass with both hands.

If I know what I want, where to find it and how to use it then the low prices are great. Otherwise it's a 30-60 minute game of "find the dodgers then work them around to finally admitting they have no fucking clue where the item I want is, whether they even have it, or for that matter how it works". Then they offer to find someone else who can help and promptly piss off to lunch "because I'm not getting paid enough for this shit".

Absolutely. There is no pleasure in the experience of a big box shop. It is strictly for availability and price.

You make your decision usually before leaving the house if you want quality or affordability/convenience, then you are not let down.

phluff127 said:
@TooFineAPoint enjoy your Arby’s. Home of expert employees serving you not overpriced meat that arrived to the store in liquid form (Arby’s meat is at one point literally a liquid) Enjoy the decline. At least it’s convenient.

Work on your reading comprehension. I talked about chains AND boutiques, for different uses.

Maybe you aren't well versed in how most one-off small ma/pa restos are run. They use generic ingredients, have a menu too-large, and often just source from the local "wholesale" shop like Costco. Functionally it is as unhealthy as eating at Arby's, just double the price and twice as long a wait.

If you want quality, you need to go to a gastronomic restaurant and pay 4x the price. Or you go to a supermarket and cook yourself. But if you are on the road, yeah, I'll take quick and dense calories at McDonalds over the average "local family restaurant" trash.

And the amazing thing about America is that they actually have corporate/chain semi-healthy / semi-fast food restos popping up to serve this market need I just wrote about.

An In-N-Out Burger in western USA probably has fresher ingredients and less calories than a cepelinai from a hole-in-the-wall Lithuanian eatery, for instance. Likewise a burrito bowl from Chipotle.

I recently spent some time in Lithuania and I ate daily at a place called Kavinė čeburekinė where a meal was $4-5 for a nice sized chicken steak, delicious pickled vegetable and roasted potatoes. All fresh high quality ingredients, and places like that are everywhere. I also ate a ton of saurkraut and that black rye bread that is popular and available everywhere. It was affordable healthy eating and I felt fantastic while I was there.

Another example is Puzata Hata which is a national chain in Ukraine. Awesome place to eat, where you can get a huge healthy meal for $5-7 and be in and out quickly.

I've never been to an In-N-Out or a Chipotle but I've eaten at plenty of other fast food chains in America serving highly processed garbage and I imagine they aren't much better. I've not come across any good chain restaurants serving healthy wholesome affordable food while living there, in fact where I'm from (New England) the best options for that kind of eating are the small seafood restaurants up and down the coast.

As far as mom and pop shops go, they're bad for consumer culture and I'd argue vital for a community. You can pretty much find whatever you need in store or online and have it in 2 days from amazon in the US. It's the paradise of consumerism and a lot of us have grown accustomed to it, but a lot of that shit we could live without. Now we have a lifestyle and culture that has been reduced to acquiring shiny objects. I'd much rather live in a place where the downtown hasn't had its soul ripped out by Walmart, Target and Amazon.

I was married to a Lithuanian-Russian and lived in Kaunas for 4 months (plus visited several times before) while we worked on her immigration papers.

Her own uncle told me "the girls here are starting to get fat, eating too many cepelinai."

Check it out:
- https://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/in-n-out-burger-hamburger-plain-479490748 [300 cals]
- https://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/cepelinai-meat-filled-potato-dumpling-387750833 [559 cals]

No hate on Lithuania, which was cheap and wonderful.

However, the food wasn't the paragon of health. And the demeanor was bleak at best (probably due to leftover communism).

Walmart, Target, and Amazon only rip out that which can't compete.

If you run a boutique (specialty shop) and can't compete with Walmart, the problem is with you.
 
RIslander said:
gework said:
Again, Magyar leads the way.

Budapest is one of the only cities in Europe I truly enjoyed. Bratislava was pleasant and Vienna had charm. Everything in the west seemed like it had lost its culture.

I'm in Budapest right now, does anyone know what building it is? Just so I can visit it in person
 
Simeon_Strangelight said:
VNvet said:
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Nah. They don't care about their own people either.

I've seen Cambodians in Cambodia using bamboo to build a cinder block wall on a government building. And judging by the amount of buildings I see collapsing in the third world, I don't think they really care about anyone other than themselves.

True - low-trust societies mean that you have to control everything diligently. China for example is two-tiered. You have highly efficient and well-made construction that is ordered by the Politbuero and corporations for themselves. Then you have a ton of retail construction and local projects which are abysmal and fall apart within 5 years after construction as corners are cut everywhere.

China has solid buildings. Most of them are commie boxes from the 80s or so pre anything goes times. Steel reinforced concrete I believe and you won't hear a beep from the neighbors because the walls are so good.

They look ugly as hell though and the stairways are always raw concrete. A lot of government officials and their families that aren't way up the foodchain own these as they know they won't fall apart anytime soon and a good to live in with proper renovation. It's a low key way for wealthier people that aren't multi millionaires to live.
 
TooFineAPoint said:
Walmart, Target, and Amazon only rip out that which can't compete.

If you run a boutique (specialty shop) and can't compete with Walmart, the problem is with you.

Yes - and no - companies like Walmart should not exist and would be ripped apart in a better world.

Why?

+ Walmart has too much market-share - they can pressure suppliers too much - it's part of an oligopoly and monopoly in some markets
+ Walmart relies on open borders and production from slave-labor markets - tariffs would cut that short quickly - should not be possible to source things from markets with 5% of your wages and then sell it back to the old customers - all after having outsourced them
+ Walmart (and other retailers) pays their workers so little, does not offer healthcare for many, so that taxpayers have to subsidize their income

There are studies done that companies like Walmart suck the land dry and destroy the local community.

It's not a matter of competition. Retail obviously changes and even surch retailers like Walmart are fine up to a degree. But market-share is to be taken into account - otherwise one day you end with 2 retailers and they squeeze you out like a lemon because you have zero choice. End-stage capitalism looks awfully like communism - just with one giant corporation ordering you around vs one government.

Besides - Walmart is a very US-specific thing - they failed miserably in Europe since the smaller competition massacred them easily - people in most of the world don't drive for half an hour or an hour to get to a Walmart.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
TooFineAPoint said:
...

Walmart, Target, and Amazon only rip out that which can't compete.

If you run a boutique (specialty shop) and can't compete with Walmart, the problem is with you.

This is not accurate.

Those corporations are large enough to engage in crony capitalism, lawfare or in the case of Amazon are in some ways subsidized by the taxpayer through the USPS. They are also large enough to suck up fines for illegal trading practices and treat them as costs of doing business so their success is not entirely on the back of the capitalist market but also on the crony capitalist market and even the anarcho-tyrannical market.

It would be akin to a billionaire spending ten million bucks to lobby the local government to re-zone the land his competition sits on, effectively putting them out of business. Is it illegal if he can paint a convincing enough picture that he's really just a philanthropist who wants more parkland in the area?

So no, failure to compete with these companies is not simply an honest market outcome. This is why libertarians can't be taken seriously. They cannot sniff out the rot beneath the rosy facade. All they see is a price and a service.
 

Caractacus Potts

Woodpecker
Gold Member
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Mexicans build massive structures in Mexico, Indians build them in India and Chinese build them in China.

Now would you trust a bunch of Indians and Chinese and Mexicans with a proven track record in their home nations to build you a school for your lily white kids?

Fuck no. Because they don't care about your people and they know that when the local gravy train ends that they're going to be able to zip off back to their homeland with profits in hand and laugh all the way.

That's why Manuel and Bhanesh are only slapping in every third bolt or spot welding instead of beading the whole seam. Because "fuck these people, they're not my people."

I had the fourth stair break free and slide down a staircase in a building I am in often. The stair was a heavy piece of granite sitting on a steel shelf underneath. The tack welds let go and whoosh down it went. Facilities was out the next day doing full welds on the undersides of all of the stairs on that staircase. Import monkeys and pay peanuts and this is what you get!
 

VNvet

Kingfisher
Anyone notice that a bunch of American cities got those scooter rental things at about the same time earlier this year?

Not sure what that's about. I'm not really a fan of them.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
@Simeon_Strangelight

Japan manages to be a high-trust civilization and china is a shithole in comparison. I read that China also used to be high-trust in ancient/classical eras. But somewhere along the line it turned to crap. Dont know if the mongols helped bring it about or the Manchus or Communists.

But since the Qing there seems to be aesthetic degradation and decline of capability to build/create beautifully.

China is objectively shittier in a social sense than even those who adopted their high-culture during the Tang Dynasty like Korea also.
 

Caractacus Potts

Woodpecker
Gold Member
infowarrior1 said:
@Simeon_Strangelight

Japan manages to be a high-trust civilization and china is a shithole in comparison. I read that China also used to be high-trust in ancient/classical eras. But somewhere along the line it turned to crap. Dont know if the mongols helped bring it about or the Manchus or Communists.

But since the Qing there seems to be aesthetic degradation and decline of capability to build/create beautifully.

China is objectively shittier in a social sense than even those who adopted their high-culture during the Tang Dynasty like Korea also.

Concur. Mainland China was much filthier than Hong Kong. The Hong Kongese did not care for the Mainlanders. I was there for a week a year ago and they were always cutting in line and spitting in public. I found it very distasteful and would see what I assumed to be Hong Kong natives frown and turn up their noses in disgust.
 

Douglas Quaid

Kingfisher
infowarrior1 said:
@Simeon_Strangelight

Japan manages to be a high-trust civilization and china is a shithole in comparison. I read that China also used to be high-trust in ancient/classical eras. But somewhere along the line it turned to crap. Dont know if the mongols helped bring it about or the Manchus or Communists.

But since the Qing there seems to be aesthetic degradation and decline of capability to build/create beautifully.

China is objectively shittier in a social sense than even those who adopted their high-culture during the Tang Dynasty like Korea also.

I worked a job dealing with a lot of Japanese and Chinese tourists, and you are spot on. Generally the Japanese are some of the most polite, well mannered people I've ever seen. I've met some nice Chinese people, but as a whole they're a pain in the ass to deal with and I don't trust them at all. Japan puts China to shame.
 

Elmore

Kingfisher
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Mexicans build massive structures in Mexico, Indians build them in India and Chinese build them in China.

Now would you trust a bunch of Indians and Chinese and Mexicans with a proven track record in their home nations to build you a school for your lily white kids?

Fuck no. Because they don't care about your people and they know that when the local gravy train ends that they're going to be able to zip off back to their homeland with profits in hand and laugh all the way.

That's why Manuel and Bhanesh are only slapping in every third bolt or spot welding instead of beading the whole seam. Because "fuck these people, they're not my people."

So true.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Leonard D Neubache said:
I frankly think the uglier truth is that importing low-trust outsiders to do work in your nation results in these catastrophes not because they're especially incompetent but simply because they either don't care about the natives that die later, or worse, actually think it's funny or just.

Mexicans build massive structures in Mexico, Indians build them in India and Chinese build them in China.

Now would you trust a bunch of Indians and Chinese and Mexicans with a proven track record in their home nations to build you a school for your lily white kids?


Fuck no. Because they don't care about your people and they know that when the local gravy train ends that they're going to be able to zip off back to their homeland with profits in hand and laugh all the way.

That's why Manuel and Bhanesh are only slapping in every third bolt or spot welding instead of beading the whole seam. Because "fuck these people, they're not my people."

Looks like a good argument for Civic Nationalists to exclude all low-trust people de-facto in immigration.
 
infowarrior1 said:
Looks like a good argument for Civic Nationalists to exclude all low-trust people de-facto in immigration.

The globalists are specifically importing these. The Lyor Cohen's of the world know how to deal with them as a group while the atomized locals get brutalized by the low trust outsiders.

Globalists are used to live among the lower and underclasses of every country, to deal with them, to befriend them and to weaponize them in form of communism.
 
TigOlBitties said:
infowarrior1 said:
@Simeon_Strangelight

Japan manages to be a high-trust civilization and china is a shithole in comparison. I read that China also used to be high-trust in ancient/classical eras. But somewhere along the line it turned to crap. Dont know if the mongols helped bring it about or the Manchus or Communists.

But since the Qing there seems to be aesthetic degradation and decline of capability to build/create beautifully.

China is objectively shittier in a social sense than even those who adopted their high-culture during the Tang Dynasty like Korea also.

I worked a job dealing with a lot of Japanese and Chinese tourists, and you are spot on. Generally the Japanese are some of the most polite, well mannered people I've ever seen. I've met some nice Chinese people, but as a whole they're a pain in the ass to deal with and I don't trust them at all. Japan puts China to shame.

Tourists are representative of the current mindset and this does not surprise me. But when we look at the Chinese we have to set them about on the stage of Dickensian Europe of the 19th century. The Chinese as a people however have created also Singapore, Hong Kong (here with the British, but success would be impossible without them), Taiwan. Their diaspora is successful and educated across the world - Chinese Americans do very well in the US and not only there. Also in Hong Kong you see the Chinese fighting for freedom against the Orwellian Chinese communists.

China has had a static and rather exploitative system led by women and eunuchs before the takeover of the British and then the commies. But I wouldn't say that this is entrinsic among the Chinese since Taiwan and Singapore are nice places and if the Chines were given the US constitution like Liberia, a few honest good men to lead them, then that place would be a South Korea by now if settled by the Chinese. Also once you get used to Western liberties and a republic, then they don't let go of it similar to Hong Kong. The commie China system is a special case since they went from the oppressive monarchy straight to communism and now to corporate communism without a break. For example - one of the reasons why people there sometimes don't care if others are driven over or harrassed is due to certain laws in the past, of getting entangled if you try to help or be a good samaritan.

However similar to the Japanese who were once supremacist and imperialist, the Chinese can also amend their ways easily enough as can be seen in the diaspora coutnries of Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong or Western diaspora. Almost all of those Chinese people I talked to hated commie China with a fervor.

A good point is that their ethno-centric nature will likely make them survive in the coming decades and centuries contrary to what is happening in the West. That includes their bigger cities which is the topic of the thread - also long-term areas to move there for fleeing Westerners.
 

Garuda

Woodpecker
Anyone else notice that routine maintenance of infrastructure just doesn't get done without someone creating an even bigger problem?

For example, in my hometown, road construction crews somehow hit a gas line a day for about a two week stretch this summer. Just this month, a crew managed to slice the main telecommunication cables, leaving a large portion of the south side without internet and landline phone services for a week.

Btw, most modern buildings in China are not that solid.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=Cj3Tr_1570445075

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=f7c_1461681979
 
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