The John F. Kennedy (JFK) assassination thread - 22 November 1963

Mercenary

Hummingbird
Surprised the forum doesn't have a thread on this.

This topic is so big and has been discussed for so many decades it's hard to know where to start really, so I will keep it simple and let the thread develop from there. Most people have obviously seen the home movie made by Abraham Zapruder which shows the assassination:



It's strange that Zapruder started filming the motorcycles which precede the presidential limo from minute 0:00 to minute 0:08, then there is cut in the film, and it starts again when the limo is already on Elm street. According to other accounts I read Zapruder claimed he never stopped filming. Also numerous witnesses saw the presidential limo make a full stop for at least 1 to 3 seconds after the 1st or 2nd shot that hit Kennedy, contradicting the film. Apparently, this full stop in the limo made the final fatal head shot possible. There are those who claim the Zapruder film has been tampered and manipulated with. Although it was filmed in November 1963, the american public did not see it until 12 years later in March 1975 on the TV show Good Night America (hosted by Geraldo Rivera).


Also, most people do not know there are actually several films made on that day.

According to wikipedia:

...a total of 32 photographers were in Dealey Plaza. Amateur movies taken by Orville Nix, Marie Muchmore (shown on television in New York on November 26, 1963), and photographer Charles Bronson captured the fatal shot, although at a greater distance than Zapruder. Other motion picture films were taken in Dealey Plaza at or around the time of the shooting by Robert Hughes, F. Mark Bell, Elsie Dorman, John Martin Jr., Patsy Paschall, Tina Towner, James Underwood, Dave Wiegman, Mal Couch, Thomas Atkins, and an unknown woman in a blue dress on the south side of Elm Street.

If you watch them on youtube, ALL of these films listed above have missing frames in critical moments.
One of the most interesting to me is the film by Tina Towner, which is the only one showing the presidential limo turning from Houston street onto Elm Street.


You will notice that there is a cut in the film between seconds 5 and 6 where frames have been removed.

According to some reserachers, a first gunshot (that missed) was already fired at that moment. Other people say, there was proof that Lee Harvey Oswald can be seen standing in the doorway of the book depository watching the motorcade proving he could not be on the 6th floor.
 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
Also surprised there isn't a thread on this already.

I'll dive in: the theory I like best in this day and age is of monumental fuckup and winning the bad luck lottery.

That is, the Mortal Error theory: Oswald was in the Book Depository, did take a couple of potshots at the Presidential car, but the final shot, the one that blows JFK's head off, was accidental and came from a Secret Service agent's weapon, an AR-15, in the car following. According to this theory, George Hickey was a new agent and hadn't been operational before. Hickey testified to carrying an AR-15 at the time, and stood up when the shot was fired. When the Secret Service car accelerated, the theory goes that he lurched forward, his weapon discharged and took Kennedy's head off.

I like this theory because it explains the immense disparity in injuries between the first shot and the last. The AR-15 Hickey was carrying was loaded with .223 frangible, i.e., explosive, ammunition. As in, the kind that could create a wound consistent with Kennedy getting his head half blown off.

The main issue that seems to bat against the Hickey shot theory is that the AR-15 is meant to be a loud gun. Contemporary versions of the weapon speak of it as "eardrum-piercing" at short range. If Hickey fired his weapon from the following car when it accelerated, you might have expected someone in that car to hear it. On that, there's seven people: five Secret Service agents including Hickey himself, and two of Kennedy's closest associates in government: Dave Powers and Ken O'Donnell, who were on his chief of staff.

If you presume the Secret Service agents closed ranks to protect one of their own, that still leaves those two men as the closest, expected witnesses to an AR-15 going off. (In passing on that, reading the testimonies of the agents, there is a certain familiar bureaucratic air about their testimonies: various references to Hickey handling the AR-15 and whatnot but an odd, if not telling, silence on what he did with it.)

Powers' testimony by affidavit to the Warren Commission is that he thought the shots came from above and to the right (i.e. from the Book Depository), but that the third shot came about the time the car accelerated and he thought (as I understood) there might've been a shot from in front of the car. Added to that, his hearing is strangely accurate on one point: his affidavit records there "was a third shot which took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall."

O'Donnell's testimony was that the accelerator on their car was hit after the third shot came, and that he saw the third shot take out Kennedy's head. Against that, O'Donnell called his own recollection foggy on the witness stand and his best estimate was that the shots came from behind and from the right. That, at least is understandable since memory's a funny thing, especially in a time period of 10 seconds or less; we remember far less accurately than we think we do.

On the other hand, Powers was later said, in a conversation Tip O'Neill recounted, to have more or less recanted his own testimony and by extension O'Donnell's as well. He indicated they'd basically testified the way the FBI pressed them to because the FBI and the Kennedy family just wanted to put the assassination behind them. And in addition to that, it doesn't take a terribly long Google search before you start finding debate over whether or not an AR-15 is loud or not. One account from a former soldier says his friend once accidentally set off an AR-15 round no more than 5 yards from him and he wondered if his friend had even fired.

Either way the absence of direct earwitness evidence of Hickey firing a shot from a foot or so away is a big hole in the theory. But on the other hand, you have multiple witnesses recorded as smelling gunpowder smoke at street level, some of whom were intimately familiar with the scent, and people would have been more likely to be looking at Kennedy, not at Hickey.

If the Hickey shot theory is right and it's correct in ballistics that gunpowder smoke hangs in the air in a 2-3 metre spread, then there is at least a basis to exclude Powers and O'Donnell's testimony in favour of other civilians. In any court, it's ponderantur, non numerantur, testes -- i.e. the truth is not always arrived at by consensus -- but if you've got a pack of disinterested people who more or less testify to the same thing versus a pack of people with agendae (Powers, the Secret Service agents) who testify to another, you'd normally move in favour of the disinterested. Had he gone to trial Oswald would have certainly been given the benefit of that presumption because it's a presumption of innocence.

An alternative, though, which is nice because it reasons backward from the ballistic and forensic data and arrives at conclusions from there: the Stephen Hunter theory.

You could explain the difference in injuries if the last bullet had been altered to resemble the bullet in Oswald's gun but delivered a much more deadly package. Remember the Mark Wahlberg movie Shooter? It's based off a novel, Point of Impact. The writer - Stephen Hunter, who's well-researched on firearms at least - wrote another book, The Third Bullet, in which he theories how it was done:

http://jfkfacts.org/stephen-hunters-third-bullet-rethinks-the-jfk-story/

Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano was an inferior weapon that fired a relatively slow-moving bullet. Hunter doubts it was the murder weapon.

Oswald was not particularly skilled with a gun. Yes, he was rated as a “marksman” in the Marines Corps, but he failed to qualify as an “expert,” the mark of an accomplished shooter.

The bullet that killed JFK disintegrated upon impact in a way that an ordinary Mannlicher-Carcano bullet would not. The official investigations never accounted for this fact.

And in the panicky aftermath of the assassination, Oswald inexplicably returned to his boarding house to fetch a pistol that he could have brought with him to work that morning. What prompted him to suddenly need a firearm? Hunter (via the protagonist, Swagger) concludes that after Kennedy was killed, Oswald knew his life as in danger.

Hunter isn’t actually proposing a conspiracy theory that is Historical Truth. He’s proposing a different way of thinking about JFK. The best way to understand the causes of Kennedy’s death, he suggets, is to reason backwards from the incontrovertible ballistic evidence to the guns that caused it.

In the story, Swagger reconciles the conflicting gun evidence with a speculative theory about the third bullet — the bullet that killed Kennedy. Swagger figures out that a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet can be loaded into the cartridge of .264 Winchester Magnum round, which could then be loaded into the more powerful and accurate .264 Winchester Magnum rifle. (In an afterword, Hunter says he has actually pulled off this trick.)

Hunter adheres to the logic of his evidence. Such a bullet fired from the Winchester rifle would travel much faster than a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet (3,000 feet per second vs. less than 2,000 feet per second) and would explode on impact, leaving only the kind of tiny fragments found inside Kennedy’s shattered skull. Since such a bullet could not have come from an ordinary bullet fired by Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano, there must have been a second gunman.

And who could have managed such ballistic mastery? The most likely suspect, says the ever politically incorrect Hunter, would be a U.S. intelligence officer experienced in the business of killing and covering his tracks, i.e, a senior CIA operative.
 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
Alpha_Romeo said:
So, were the first two bullets recovered, and were they intact?

A very good question.

The second bullet is often termed as CE399 (named as Warren Commission Exhibit 399) is usually taken to be the bullet that went through Kennedy's back and into Connolly's body. (This is the "magic bullet", which for my part I don't think was magic. Most magic bullet theories come to that view because they don't place Kennedy and Connolly in their actual, recorded-on-the-Zapruder-footage seating positions when the shot is fired. The difference is profound):

20140303-singlebullet.jpg


Getting back to CE399, my skepticism comes about regarding the method of its recovery. It wasn't removed from Connolly. It was found on the floor near one of the gurneys holding Kennedy and Connolly.

Photo_ce399_base.jpg


It was somewhat deformed from some angles, but pretty much intact. Unlike the third bullet, it did not explode into tiny fragments. Per Wikipedia:

The Warren Commission's "single bullet," according to all documentation:

- had no thread striations (fine lines etched onto a copper encased bullet tip and/or bullet side casing by clothing threads when the bullet first penetrates clothing threads),
- was marked with no blood,
- was marked with no human tissue,
- had no pieces of clothing attached,
- had lost 1.5% of its original average weight,
- had a composition that was consistent with the composition of the metal fragments recovered from Connally (see section on neutron activation analysis).

This "single bullet," which was full metal jacketed and specifically designed to pass through the human body, was deformed and not in a pristine state as some detractors claim. Though a side view seems to show no visible damage, a view from the end of the bullet shows a significant flattening which occurred when, according to the theory, the bullet struck Connally's wrist, butt end first. The metallurgical composition of the bullet fragments in the wrist was compared to the composition of the samples taken from the base of CE 399. Several of the same type 6.5 millimeter test bullets were test-fired by the Warren Commission investigators. The test bullet that most matched the slight side flattening and nearly pristine, still rounded impact tip of CE 399 was a bullet that had only been fired into a long tube containing a thick layer of cotton. Later tests show that such bullets survive intact when fired into solid wood and multiple layers of skin and ballistic gel, as well.

Things that make you go hmmm.

The first bullet was never recovered. That three shots were fired (and other witnesses record any number up to nine) depends mainly on the testimony of other people inside the Book Depository, and that three shell casings were found in Oswald's "sniper nest".
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
Alpha_Romeo said:
So, were the first two bullets recovered, and were they intact?

"Official story" for over 50 years is only 3 bullets fired by one person in 6 seconds.

1 missed and slightly injured a civilian called James Tague.
1 was the fatal headshot.

The last was the so called "magic bullet" which supposedly caused 7 injuries in 2 people and was found fully intact as explained by oliver stone in the 1991 film "jfk".




Governor of Minnesota and professional wrestler Jesse Ventura got the same rifle and same ammunition and tried to duplicate the shooting in the same time of 6 seconds. (he failed, as did many other professional shooters who have tried over the years)

 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
Probably important to point out here that JFK, while it's a brilliant film, makes some absolutely horrible errors in chronicling what the Warren Commission said and what happened in Dallas on that day.

The popular legend -- from JFK -- is that Oswald could not have fired the three known shots in the time period they came, that time being 5.6 seconds, that time being all but impossible for a sniper to get the shots off. For reference, the weapon found in the sniper nest (notice I am not asserting that Oswald necessarily fired it) was a 6.5 x 52 mm caliber Carcano rifle with a 4x telescopic sight firing Western Cartridge Co. ammunition with a 160 grain (10.37 g) round nose bullet with a muzzle velocity = 700 m/s and a velocity at 100 yards of 550 m/s.

Two problems with the timing.

First, in the film itself, Jay O. Sanders, playing Lou Ivor in JFK, did get the shots off in precisely 5.6 seconds. Get a stopwatch and time it on film. It is therefore possible to make the shots in the time period required for the "single bullet" theory.

Second, the Warren Commission never said that Oswald necessarily had to get three shots off in 5.6 seconds. The Commission did say, based on an evaluation of the (soundless) Zapruder footage:

The time span between the shot entering the back of the President's neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If either the first or third shots missed, then a minimum of 2.3 seconds (necessary to operate the rifle) must be added to the time span of the shots which hit, giving a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.

That is, the Commission could only see the results of two shots: the "magic" bullet and the kill shot. That time period was 4.8-5.6 seconds. So the question becomes whether it was seeing the time period in which three shots were fired or the period in which two were fired. The necessity of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds being the time required for three shots if the neck shot and kill shot were the first and third shots fired -- but even then that's at least possible.

The evidence for the neck and kill shots being the second and third shots comes from watching the reactions of some of the observers in the crowd. Summarising it, there is a body of thought that places people reacting to a shot around frame 155 of the Zapruder film, which is well ahead of the impact of the neck shot. Kennedy himself appears to react to something at frame 161. Connolly reacts to getting hit at frame 230, conjectured as impact around 223 or 224.
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
Paracelsus said:
First, in the film itself, Jay O. Sanders, playing Lou Ivor in JFK, did get the shots off in precisely 5.6 seconds. Get a stopwatch and time it on film. It is therefore possible to make the shots in the time period required for the "single bullet" theory.

No.

In the film he is test firing the rifle without ammunition, without aiming, and without a target.

Also, shortly after the assassination, J. Edgar Hoover cut down the huge tree on Elm street that was blocking the line of sight onto the limo. You can see it in the Tina Towner video I put in the first post.
 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
^^^

Well, it can be said that mechanically it's possible to cycle the rifle three times in that period, and thus possible to fire it three times. Whether it's possible to hit with any accuracy in that time period is another matter. As said, I don't think Oswald fired the final, killing shot - whether it was Hickey or a second shooter who did so. And the time of 5.6 seconds assumes that we are looking at three shots between the neck shot and the kill shot on the Zapruder footage. If we aren't -- i.e. if the first or the third shots missed -- then the whole idea of "3 bullets in 5.6 seconds" can be thrown out.
 

porscheguy

Ostrich
That rifle was a piece of shit. That scope was an even bigger piece of shit. It was a 4X Japanese made scope. It's basically the same thing you can get from Tasco at Wal-mart sometimes sold as a "rimfire scope." I've got a Marlin Model 60 that came from the factory with one. It was always an awful scope. The eye relief is unforgiving. Too close and it goes dark. Too far away and it goes dark. Move more than 1/4" and it goes dark.

Oswald's scope was also mounted pretty high to allow for the use of the iron sights. Knowing how bad that scope was, don't see how he could have gotten off 3 shots in 5.6 seconds, especially on a moving target that was accelerating. If he used the irons it may have been better, but I doubt he was able to make all three shots.
 

Paracelsus

Crow
Gold Member
Incidentally, the timing of this thread, March 2017, 6 months from October 2017, seems fairly fortuitous:

http://2017jfk.org/the-call

THE BACKGROUND

Oliver Stone’s December 1991 film JFK ended with closing statement about the enormous amount of still-secret government documents relating to the JFK assassination and the fact that they would not be released until 2029. The tidal wave of letter-writing and phone-calling to Washington D. C. that followed the film precipitated a congressional decision to speed up the declassification of those files. The President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 was the result, and it was signed into law by President George H. W. Bush on 26 October 1992.

The Records Collection Act also created an independent board to oversee the declassification effort—the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB)—and invested it with the power to direct agencies to release documents, with direct appeal to the President as the agencies’ only recourse. The law defined “assassination record” very broadly. It decreed that no records could remain classified beyond twenty-five years of the enactment. In other words, the law mandates that all JFK assassination records must be fully declassified by 26 October 2017.

THE PROBLEM

Although the AARB released millions of pages of assassination records, a significant amount of potentially critical material still remains partially redacted or withheld in full. In April 2015, Martha Murphy, Chief of Special Access and Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Branch, National Archives and Records Administration, (NARA) gave this assessment of the current situation:

There are 5 million pages of records in the JFK Act collection.
There are 318,886 documents in the JFK Act database.
11% of the documents have partial redactions.
3,603 documents are withheld in full.

These figures do not include many hundreds—perhaps thousands—of documents that are already supposed to be released but are not available. NARA has put U. S. Government agencies on notice that the withheld material is going to be released in 2017 unless they appeal to the President to prevent it. Murphy stated that NARA wants to know now—not at the last moment—what, if anything, these agencies expect to appeal.

THE OUTLOOK

The people of the United States must anticipate now that:

Such appeals will occur
Without significant public pressure the president will assume that Americans are not interested in upholding the terms of the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act

THE MISSION

Therefore, we must begin to prepare now for action to ensure that these records are released. Over the course of the next twenty-four months citizens concerned about the possible continued withholding of these assassination records must:

Constantly stay informed about the developing situation
Organize in ways to increase and share awareness
Develop plans and activities to communicate with elected leaders and presidential hopefuls
Impress upon them our firm and unwavering belief that these records belong to us.

So what's still being held back?

http://2017jfk.org/countdown-to-2017/

More than five decades after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, thousands of government files detailing the activities and testimony of shadowy spies, long-deceased witnesses and others with possible knowledge of the events remain shielded from public view.

The government gave a first-ever peek to what’s still out there Thursday, as the National Archives released a list of the 3,063 documents that have been “fully withheld” since JFK’s murder in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.

The documents listed — released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from POLITICO, other news organizations and researchers — were collected by the Assassination Records Review Board, an independent panel created by the 1992 JFK Records Act.

That same act requires that all the document on the list be released by October 2017 unless the next president decides to keep them classified.

Based on what has been revealed previously, many of the files are expected to have no direct bearing on Kennedy’s death in Dealey Plaza but could reveal intelligence operations involving Cuba, secret relationships between U.S. spy agencies and unsavory characters during the height of the Cold War, as well as other secrets the U.S. government might have resisted disclosing publicly as part of a full and open investigation at the time.

Cold War scholars have long suspected that many of the still-withheld files will not necessarily shed new light on whether Oswald acted alone. They could, however, help explain why some top officials at the time might have sought to prevent a thorough investigation, out of concern it would require airing the dirty laundry of covert activities.

Yet asked whether there might be any significant revelations about Kennedy’s unsolved murder, Martha Murphy, head of the Archives’ Special Access Branch, told POLITICO last year, “I’ll be honest. I am hesitant to say you’re not going to find out anything about the assassination.”

The Archives says that “certain information has been removed” from the list, including titles and other identifying information, to protect national security, personal privacy and tax information.

Here is a snapshot of what is still being hidden from the public about key figures, probes and other events that the Archives has deemed relevant to the JFK investigation.

Lee Harvey Oswald

Secret CIA “personality” studies of the reported lone assassin fingered by the Warren Commission produced immediately after the assassination have yet to be released, along with a telegram about him from the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City to the State Department a week after the assassination. Oswald, a former Marine who had temporarily defected to the Soviet Union in 1959, is suspected of having visited Mexico City in the weeks before the assassination, reportedly to obtain a visa to travel to Cuba.

There also are hundreds of other pages of undated CIA files that contain classified information on Oswald, including a handwritten note from Yuri Nosenko, a KGB officer who defected from the Soviet Union and also is the subject of numerous other secret transcripts and tapes contained in the withheld records, as well as another document on Oswald’s “contacts with Cuban and Soviet embassies.” The trove also includes a pair of 1959 telegrams — one from the State Department to Moscow and the other from Moscow to Secretary of State Christian Herter — regarding Oswald’s brother Robert.

J. Edgar Hoover

There are a series of communications from the longest-serving and highly secretive FBI director, including one titled “Reaction of Soviet and Communist Party officials to JFK assassination” that he sent to President Lyndon B. Johnson’s chief of staff, Marvin Watson, a week after the assassination; another a few weeks later to the deputy secretary of state for security relating to Oswald; and a series of 1964 memos sent to J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Warren Commission, about Jack Ruby, the Dallas night club owner with mafia ties who killed Oswald two days after the assassination in the basement of the Dallas police station, preventing a trial.

Jacqueline Kennedy

At least five communications are contained in the files from the former first lady to President Lyndon B. Johnson in the days immediately following the assassination.

James Jesus Angleton

Still classified is the top-secret testimony from the chief of the CIA’s counterintelligence branch from 1954 to 1975 before the so-called Church Committee, convened by the U.S. Senate in 1975 to investigate abuses by the spy agency. It was the Church Committee that revealed for the first time that the CIA had hired figures in organized crime with deep ties to Havana to help overthrow the communist government of Fidel Castro, including through assassination attempts.

Note it's the President's decision to keep items classified. If anyone was going to say "Fuck the establishment and all you fucking families who had a hand in this shit, here it all comes", it's Donald Trump. October this year could get very interesting. Particularly if the details embarrass the CIA, and assuming any of the bullshit surrounding Trump recently has had any CIA fingerprints over it.
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
Governor of Texas, John Connally, who was injured while sat in front of Kennedy always maintained the president was hit first and he was hit 1 or 2 seconds later by a different bullet. All the way back in 1964 he talked about it to life magazine. This would make it a minimum of 4 bullets for which you need a second shooter as the official government report always said only 3 shots were fired.

LIFE%20Magazine%20NOVEMBER%2025,%201966%20%5B1%5D%20-%20Kennedy%20Assassination.jpg.opt813x535o0,0s813x535.jpg


LIFE%20Magazine%20NOVEMBER%2025,%201966%20%287%29%20-%20Kennedy%20Assassination.jpg.opt813x535o0,0s813x535.jpg


LIFE%20Magazine%20NOVEMBER%2025,%201966%20%285%29%20-%20Kennedy%20Assassination.jpg.opt813x536o0,0s813x536.jpg
 

CaptainS

Hummingbird
The History channel did a documentary called "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". In that, they claim JFK was killed by a group of people who were opposed to his plans to expose the deep state and military industrial complex. Kinda scary that Trump is attempting the same thing...in part at least.

Johnson was in on it - even bragged about it to a mistress. He was eventually killed when, in old age, the guilt caught up with him and he was about to confess his involvement.
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
Captainstabbin said:
The History channel did a documentary called "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". In that, they claim JFK was killed by a group of people who were opposed to his plans to expose the deep state and military industrial complex. Kinda scary that Trump is attempting the same thing...in part at least.

Johnson was in on it - even bragged about it to a mistress. He was eventually killed when, in old age, the guilt caught up with him and he was about to confess his involvement.

It was a 9 part series which was excellent. The best I have ever seen on this topic.
Uncovered a lot of new material that had never been heard or seen and interviewed a host of new people including some French (Corsican ?) assassins who may have done the shooting divided into 3 teams from 3 different angles.

Episode 9 was only shown once on TV in 2003 and then banned because Lyndon B. Johnson's widow and a few ex us presidents all complained to the history channel.

The British journalist who made it (Nigel Turner) also seems to have disappeared from public view after it was made.
 

sterling_archer

Hummingbird
I see nobody mentioned this. There was a movie released on November 7, 1973 (practically 10 year anniversary) called Executive Action. Movie stars Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan and William Geer.

Look at plot (IMDB):

"Rogue intelligence agents, right-wing politicians, greedy capitalists, and free-lance assassins plot and carry out the JFK assassination in this speculative agitprop."

What is interesting is this:
"Released two weeks before the tenth anniversary of Kennedy's assassination, Executive Action opened to a storm of controversy about the events shown. It then was pulled from many theaters in its first and second weeks of showing because of the bad press. Many television stations also refused to run trailers for the film, including WNBC-TV in New York City.

Besides the negative press, the film was also generally panned. Pauline Kael called it a "feeble, insensitive fictionalization ... It's a dodo-bird of a movie, the winner of the Tora! Tora! Tora!' prize in miniature. With matchlessly dull performances ..." Leonard Maltin declares it a Bomb in his Movie Guide, calling it an "excruciatingly dull thriller [that] promised to clear the air about JFK's assassination but was more successful at clearing theaters."

Did movie got too close to the truth so it was pulled from theaters and critically panned?
 

Mercenary

Hummingbird
sterling_archer said:
I see nobody mentioned this. There was a movie released on November 7, 1973 (practically 10 year anniversary) called Executive Action. Movie stars Burt Lancaster, Robert Ryan and William Geer.

I go you one better.

The 1967 documentary film called "Rush to Judgment" directed by Emile de Antonio, based on the book by Mark Lane which interviewed many of the key witnesses, some of whom who died in mysterious circumstances after the film was released.
 

brick tamland

Kingfisher
Some people might actually be new to this topic. I've looked into it a fair bit, though not exhaustively yet. The further you look into it, the more you become aware of the Deep State, more than anything else. Some points (my point of view, so feel free to disagree) -

> Oswald did not fire any shots at jfk. Although he had been recruited by intelligence agents, he likely believed that his role was to help to prevent the killing somehow.
> The Zapruder film, and all the other films and photographs taken on that day were altered before being release for public consumption, in order to conceal the truth.
> The apparatus that had been set up to destabilise other nations and assassinate foreign figures, was ultimately turned inward to eliminate JFK.
> There were several figures and entities that happened to simultaneously have a motive to have him killed, such as Lyndon B. Johnson (who became the front-man in the plot in relation to the US-based enemies of the president); the Texas oil moguls due to JFK's plan to end favourable treatment of their industry; J Edgar Hoover; the CIA; the Rothschilds and the wealthiest Americans; disaffected Cuban exiles; disaffected security apparatus figures due to jfk being a relative moderate, and due to his handling of the Cuba situation etc. (The list could be quite long)
> All the figures and entities with said motive had placed shooters in dealey plaza, such that it guaranteed that none of them would dare expose the others after the fact, as in turn they risked being exposed themselves;
> There were up to six or seven shooters (and rifles) or even more, aiming at jfk on that day;
> The driver of jfk's limo was a co-conspirator;
> Some assassination-related images have virtually disappeared from the internet for some reason.
> The years-long focus on the grassy knoll shooter(s) was a major and deliberate distraction intended to keep researchers' focus away from shooters in other positions, including the shooter(s) in the storm drain and on the overpass. From that perspective, Oliver Stone's movie hardly scratched the surface of the conspiracy.

I could type some more but for anyone really interested in starting to dig deeper, look at:

the assassination science website;
Murder in dealey plaza (a book edited by James Fetzer but with contributions by experts with impressive credentials);
The men who killed kennedy documentary;
(Perhaps most importantly) - Please see the episode of the 'Evidence of Revision' documentary to do with jfk's shooting. It is probably the most eye-opening documentary regarding events on the day jfk was killed and the aftermath. This episode of the documentary literally blow-by-blow exposes the mass media cover-up that began mere moments after the death. So many contradictions are exposed. For a brief time, not everyone in the mass media was singing from the same hymn sheet, hence some precious bits of truth were inadvertently given away, although this only lasted a very short time. There is a lot of never-widely-seen-before footage, including the footage of groups of people running towards the area behind the picket fence, I suppose instinctively trying to pursue the shooter(s) who they had seen there.

Other interesting theories include the involvement of Mossad in the assassination; and the involvement of George Bush snr, who was apparently already with the CIA at the time.
 

Eusebius

Hummingbird
Gold Member
In my opinion, when you look into it, two things can be said with certainty:

- Oswald's intelligence background was covered up;
- JFK's autopsy and medical records were fixed and falsified. Douglas Horne (government investigator for the Assassinations Records Review Board) has established this beyond a doubt.

I'm personally convinced of the conspiracy, and that the Deep State has been in control ever since.
 
Top